kneeboard recommendations?
Dick Watson
little looking and there are so many choices.
I did a pre-xc solo phase check today with the chief pilot and "crap
management" in the cockpit was on of the things that I had the most trouble
with. Charts x3, a pen, checklists, nav log, writing down times at waypoints
and t/o, etc. I got a Sanford/Parker "Slinger" pen (a pen on a neck lanyard)
this afternoon at OfficeMax; we'll see if that helps.
Other than that and a troublesome simulated soft field landing in a stiff
xwind I did pretty well and he signed me off. On the landing, I was too slow
and running pretty much out of authority before I was on the runway. I also
wish I'd been doing it with flaps 20 or less instead of 30. Oh, and a NORDO
guy in the pattern and so on.
He also taught me a different setup for the power off stall--in a final
approach descent; apparently that's what the PTS is now calling for.
Getting closer; left to go: the 5 hrs solo xc, the "written," the 3 hrs
check ride prep, a check ride phase check with another instructor, then the
real thing.
RTMorgan
in the "you might be a dorky pilot if..." thread. Just get a paper
clip or something. Stop distracting yourself with the extras and just
fly the aircraft.
1. aviate
2. navigate
3. communicate
in the order.
Don't be one of those lousy pilots that that foolishly thinks that
there are times you should land with less than full flaps. If it is
your prefference then you just lack the skill to land the aircraft
properly. Anyone who tells you different is just a pilot that need to
get some experience under their belt. Also you did not lose
"authority". In a piston single engine you have "authority" donw to
about 25-30 KTS.
I don't know where you are getting your training but I would question
the quality of the instruction you are getting. My guess is you are
somewhere like Embry or Comair. Your insturtors are inexperienced and
arrogant. Not a good combination. You now have the opportunity to
learn the golden rule of professional aviation, CYA (cover your ***).
They are teaching you alot of bad stuff. Don't blindly take what the
instructors around your school are saying to be true. They are far
from making it in this business. They know less than you could
imagine. "Those who can't do teach".
http://www.v1rotate.com
View this thread: http://www.v1rotate.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?threadid=55627
Jimmy Wack
dishing out a little more information then you had asked for.
"RTMorgan" <RTMorga...@NOSPAMv1rotate.com> wrote in message
news:2ed884b7a9d8dce3...@free.teranews.com...
Dick Watson
posting.
FWIW, I had all of the rudder in I could get. My foot was firmly on the
floor. As we slowed down just a little more, we started wind-cocking. If
that isn't out of control authority, what is? And I've been there, done
that, with the paperclip. Awful hard to write ATIS and waypoint times on a
paperclip.
"RTMorgan" <RTMorga...@NOSPAMv1rotate.com> wrote in message
news:2ed884b7a9d8dce3...@free.teranews.com...
> The conventional wisdom on knee boards can be found at flight info.com
> in the "you might be a dorky pilot if..." thread. Just get a paper
> clip or something. Stop distracting yourself with the extras and just
> fly the aircraft.
...
Dick Watson
This post (c) richard n. watson, 2003. All rights granted except reposting
from usenet to www.v1rotate.com forum.
"Jimmy Wack" <pilo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FLmcnXlnRL2...@comcast.com...
Russ
news:2ed884b7a9d8dce3...@free.teranews.com...
> there are times you should land with less than full flaps. If it is
> your prefference then you just lack the skill to land the aircraft
> properly. Anyone who tells you different is just a pilot that need to
> get some experience under their belt.
Am I the only one who was taught that there are plenty of times when less
than full flaps are appropriate?
Gusty conditions and a long runway - I fly 10 degrees of flaps, more as
needed, and a higher approach speed.
Approach over water - I fly 10-15 degrees until I know I've got the runway
made, then will add more flaps as needed. Dumping in a bunch of flaps early
means I'm going for a swim if the engine quits. Less flaps and I might just
make the glide to the shoreline.
I certainly don't ALWAYS go full flaps. I don't see the point of making a
drastic configuation change like dumping full flaps on short final when
you've got a stabalized approach and plenty of runway to work with. This is
with C172s and 182s. Could I land the airplane with full flaps every time?
Probably - but I feel a lot safer and a lot less "foolish" if I use the
configuration I think is appropriate for the situation.
Thoughts?
C J Campbell
"Dick Watson" <littlegr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:bd2pct$gnh$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...
| What's the combined wisdom say on the subject of kneeboards?
I am not fond of knee boards. I prefer clipboards or just plain notepads and
pockets. When I was in the Air Force I used an organizer wallet to keep my
dividers and plotter in, but I still preferred pockets for pencils,
flashlights, hard candies and so forth. If I am on a long cross country I
hole-punch my nav logs and put them in a loose-leaf notebook. I keep charts
handy in a headset bag behind the seat next to me in case I have to refer to
them, but that is extremely rare. I try to make sure that all the navigation
and communication frequencies, identifiers, routes, etc., are on my nav log
so that I don't have to look anything up. I keep approach plates in their
binder until I need them, and the only type of plane that I remove the
approach plates from the binder in order to use them is the Cessna 172.
Actually, I usually just brief the approach, taking note of any turns, and
hand it to my "co-pilot" or lay it on the empty seat beside me. Upon
reaching the next fix, I do my briefed T's and grab the plate to confirm my
set-up for the next fix if necessary.
However, that is my preference. Most people go through several different
types of kneeboards and clipboards before they finally find something that
works for them. We are all built differently, and my choice is largely
driven by the fact that I like my seat up high, I am fat, and usually the
yoke will just barely clear my lap. Some people really like vests that have
lots of pockets for everything. Others write all their notes with grease
pencil on the window and wipe it off after the flight. Do whatever works for
you. The only general rule of thumb is that laps are like desks: less is
more.
Doug
bound gov't charts (no chart sleeves etc), a 4 1/4" x 5 1/2" yellow pad, a
pad of sticky's, a few pens, and the enroute charts (Howie Keefe style,
www.aircharts.com). No kneeboards, fancy sleeves, or other such
paraphernalia. Keep it simple. I like the govt charts because they are
substantially less expensive and I use bound because everything stays in
it's place. I put a sticky in the page to mark my arrival airport and
alternate.
If you look at pro pilots, they seldome use kneeboards, just the pad of
paper from the hotel they stayed at last night.
Greg Burkhart (MN)
news:bd2pct$gnh$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...
> little looking and there are so many choices.
I had tried a few different kneeboards when I was in training and finally
gave up and just use a half-size aluminum clipboard with a yellow notepad.
This slips nicely between the seats of a C-150. In my Ercoupe, I put it on
the floor (no rudder pedals) and it's easily reached when needed to make
notes or refer to frequency notes, etc. I also keep this clipboard, a
current local sectional, an A/FD, logbook, and headset (and some other
miscellaneous stuff) in my cheap headset bag. This makes it easy to remove
all the items at one time from the plane when needed. I keep a couple pens
or pencils and a mag-light in my shirt pocket.
I found the kneeboards that I tried to be more of a hassle than what they're
worth. There are a lot of things I bought that I thought were 'neat' to have
when I was training that now I wished I hadn't wasted my money and spent it
on flying instead.
Ben Jackson
Dick Watson <littlegr...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>What's the combined wisdom say on the subject of kneeboards? I've done a
>little looking and there are so many choices.
If you search google groups you'll find a lot of threads about this,
several with descriptions of how people made their own mutant
clipboards and how they use them in the cockpit.
Personally I'd like a trifold with space for charts in the folds and
a small enough clipboard area that it doesn't interfere with the yoke
at full extension. Since the Jepp I have fails on both accounts (both
too narrow and too short to hold sectionals in the side flaps and
tall enough that I run into the metal clipboard with the yoke) I think
I'm out of luck. I juse it like a giant rubber band to keep stuff
together between my desk at home and the plane...
--
Ben Jackson
<b...@ben.com>
http://www.ben.com/
Roger Halstead
>"RTMorgan" <RTMorga...@NOSPAMv1rotate.com> wrote in message
>news:2ed884b7a9d8dce3...@free.teranews.com...
>> Don't be one of those lousy pilots that that foolishly thinks that
>> there are times you should land with less than full flaps. If it is
>> your prefference then you just lack the skill to land the aircraft
>> properly. Anyone who tells you different is just a pilot that need to
>> get some experience under their belt.
>
<snip>
Although the original message (which I can't find on my server)
certainly sounds like a troll, and is phrased in a confrontational
manner....
It is rare for me to not use full flaps. That doesn't mean I have any
more skill than the next guy, nor do I claim to have such. I probably
have more experience in gusty wind than average for the mid west and
under for the south west. Different makes and models handle
differently in gusty winds, so I can speak for only what I have flown
recently.
Day before yesterday when the wind was really bad, unstable and
varying from about 350 to 070 @ 8 to 10 G 16, I still used full flaps
landing on 090 (that's mostly a 90 degree gusty cross wind spilling
off the tree line a hundred to two hundred yards to the north) The
winds weren't near as strong as I've seen them, but I think it was the
most unstable I've seen them. I've landed and taken off in 25 knot
direct cross winds, but they weren't gusty. I've taken off in 30 G
50, but they were right down the runway. Big difference.
I came in faster and steeper with full flaps. The roll out was
relatively short, compared to the aircraft ahead of me. (but still a
good deal longer than I normally make) A 182 landed with little flaps
and stalled well above the runway...aparently about 30 feet according
to witnesses.
The 182 hit hard enough to bust up the nose gear wheel pant and get a
prop strike. (he still taxied off the runway). My guess is the fire
wall is going to be torqued out of shape as well. With an impact like
that, who knows what else is going to turn up. The FBO did say one
blade was a tad loose in the hub. I've seen "shoulders" put in the
wings on a couple of 172s in the last two years and they didn't stall
in from that high.
This is a single instance, so it proves little. They are also
different type aircraft with mine having a higher wing loading. Nor do
I know the other pilots experience level when dealing with winds of
that character. It was a landing where I was busy till I got the
plane stopped and I fly in most kinds of weather.
Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
Roger Halstead
<littlegr...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>What's the combined wisdom say on the subject of kneeboards? I've done a
>little looking and there are so many choices.
I use a 1/3 size clip board and a piece of elastic when the right seat
is occupied. (It's about the only thing the yoke on the Deb will
clear) Otherwise I use a full size clip board and throw it in the
right seat.
>
>I did a pre-xc solo phase check today with the chief pilot and "crap
>management" in the cockpit was on of the things that I had the most trouble
>with. Charts x3, a pen, checklists, nav log, writing down times at waypoints
>and t/o, etc. I got a Sanford/Parker "Slinger" pen (a pen on a neck lanyard)
>this afternoon at OfficeMax; we'll see if that helps.
>
The lanyard is a good idea. I use the space between the pilots seat
and the fire extinguisher for charts if I'm only using a few.
Otherwise I have a satchel on the floor in back where I can just reach
between the seats to get what I want. Charts in order.
Checklists...Put a piece of velcro on the back and another on the side
wall where it can be reached easily. (Simple really is better....to a
point)
>Other than that and a troublesome simulated soft field landing in a stiff
>xwind I did pretty well and he signed me off. On the landing, I was too slow
>and running pretty much out of authority before I was on the runway. I also
>wish I'd been doing it with flaps 20 or less instead of 30. Oh, and a NORDO
>guy in the pattern and so on.
>
>He also taught me a different setup for the power off stall--in a final
>approach descent; apparently that's what the PTS is now calling for.
Not sure if I follow, but if you mean doing the approach stall while
in a descent, I think that is the way to go. It adds a lot of realism
missing from the old hold the altitude until it stalls approach to
stalls. Of course I believe in climb power when doing departure
stalls too. They just aren't the same in many aircraft when using
partial power although I don't remember there being much difference in
150s and 172s.
Then again, the old Deb which is certainly not a primary trainer,
develops a real attitude problem when using partial power. She'll turn
right around and bite you right in the butt and I do mean turn right
around. OTOH, it is a good way to practice unusual attitude
recovery.<:-))
>
>Getting closer; left to go: the 5 hrs solo xc, the "written," the 3 hrs
>check ride prep, a check ride phase check with another instructor, then the
>real thing.
>
Hey...It's all real. Some's just more exciting than others<:-))
Sounds like you are doing well. Hang in there and I'm sure we'll be
seeing your name with the PPL before long.
Dick Watson
already knew: that it was a subject (I'll call it "cockpit crap management")
where I needed to work out something that would work better. Unfortunately I
fly on the edge of two sectionals and in a terminal area. That means upwards
of three charts depending on where I'm going.
"Doug" <anoth...@access4less.net> wrote in message
news:bd35ck$4vf$1...@news.chatlink.com...
Dick Watson
times and ATIS info and so forth on that is difficult and there are still
charts and so forth. I've heard similar on people going through several
different schemes before finding what works for them.
I think this will be a relative non-problem solo since there is that nice
empty seat tot he right.
"C J Campbell" <christoph...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vfa609q...@corp.supernews.com...
Dick Watson
news:Ni9Ja.57339$Fa6.37836@sccrnsc02...
> I had tried a few different kneeboards when I was in training and finally
> gave up and just use a half-size aluminum clipboard with a yellow notepad.
> This slips nicely between the seats of a C-150. In my Ercoupe, I put it on
> the floor (no rudder pedals) and it's easily reached when needed to make
> notes or refer to frequency notes, etc. I also keep this clipboard, a
> current local sectional, an A/FD, logbook, and headset (and some other
> miscellaneous stuff) in my cheap headset bag. This makes it easy to remove
> all the items at one time from the plane when needed. I keep a couple pens
> or pencils and a mag-light in my shirt pocket.
I've been thinking or trying something like the clipboard between the seats.
It'd be easy to find and reach without looking. I do try to write all of the
data I know I'll need on the nav log so as not to need AFD, but being under
a really complicated class B, I try to keep at least the terminal chart
prettty close to my fingertips, depending on which way I'm going. Oh, and
I'm pretty close to the edge of a sectional and 60NM south of a third.
That's three charts for most anywhere I head in the non-mountainous
directions 180 degrees or so wide.
> I found the kneeboards that I tried to be more of a hassle than what
they're
> worth. There are a lot of things I bought that I thought were 'neat' to
have
> when I was training that now I wished I hadn't wasted my money and spent
it
> on flying instead.
Exactly what I'm hoping to avoid. That's why I still haven't done anything
in terms of gadgets on this issue--I'm trying to get to something that works
for me on the cheap.
Dick Watson
news:8tgafvkug3i9nio21...@4ax.com...
> I use a 1/3 size clip board and a piece of elastic when the right seat
> is occupied. (It's about the only thing the yoke on the Deb will
> clear) Otherwise I use a full size clip board and throw it in the
> right seat.
That's pretty much what I'm going to try next weekend, solo.
> >He also taught me a different setup for the power off stall--in a final
> >approach descent; apparently that's what the PTS is now calling for.
>
> Not sure if I follow, but if you mean doing the approach stall while
> in a descent, I think that is the way to go. It adds a lot of realism
> missing from the old hold the altitude until it stalls approach to
> stalls.
Exactly. It makes it a lot easier to setup and more realistic.
Thanks for the reply.
Jon Kraus
of those lousy pilots that that foolishly thinks that there are times you should land
breeze... Example 2 - there are a lot of times on instrument approaches where you land
with less than full flaps (at least I have been - hummmm maybe I'm one of those lousy
pilots :-) )...
My instructor for my private trained at Comair and I thought he was well trained and very
professional ( oh no... maybe he really didn't know shit and now I don't either.....
bummer... :-) ) I....
Anyway about the kneeboard... I have one that I used for my private X-countries. I got
it from ASA I think... It works well.. Now that I in the middle of my Instrument
training I am trying something different... I went to Office Max and for a couple of
bucks bought a regular clipboard and a couple of extra clips. This holds my plates,
enroute chart(s), flight plan and a small pad of paper for writing down clearences ect...
I put some velcro on a couple of pens that I can attach to the clips for easy of use...
to keep everything from sliding off my lap I bought couple of cheap neoprene mouse pads
and glued them to the bottom (no more slipping). Now I have a perfect little "desk" in
my lap with everything close at hand... The whole contraption cost less than 10 bucks....
So the moral of the story is use whatever works for you... Good luck and keep us posted
on your progress...
Blue Skies and Soft Landings to you all...
Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA
Guy Middleton
Dick Watson <littlegr...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> little looking and there are so many choices.
For me, a kneeboard sometimes gets in the way of the control yoke, which is
not a good thing. But of course this depends on the size of your legs, and
how you like to adjust your seat.
ken
flaps!!! What then? Oops can't fly?
--
KB
"Russ" <m...@seattle.wa> wrote in message
news:Ar8Ja.1014401$OV.1114416@rwcrnsc54...
ken
--
KB
"Russ" <m...@seattle.wa> wrote in message
news:Ar8Ja.1014401$OV.1114416@rwcrnsc54...
Dick Watson
news:7vjJa.19717$PD3....@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> For me, a kneeboard sometimes gets in the way of the control yoke, which
is
> not a good thing. But of course this depends on the size of your legs,
and
> how you like to adjust your seat.
Yah, I've thought about that. I know trying to keep the paper-clipped stuff
in my lap has been annoying for that reason.
David Megginson
> "RTMorgan" <RTMorga...@NOSPAMv1rotate.com> wrote in message
> news:2ed884b7a9d8dce3...@free.teranews.com...
> > Don't be one of those lousy pilots that that foolishly thinks that
> > there are times you should land with less than full flaps. If it
> > is your prefference then you just lack the skill to land the
> > aircraft properly. Anyone who tells you different is just a pilot
> > that need to get some experience under their belt.
>
> Am I the only one who was taught that there are plenty of times when
> less than full flaps are appropriate?
I don't know about plenty of times, but you certainly don't want any
flaps if there is ice on the plane.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson, da...@megginson.com, http://www.megginson.com/
Steve Dold
> Am I the only one who was taught that there are plenty of times when less
> than full flaps are appropriate?
Some pilots, and even instructors, think that because there are 40 degrees
(for example) available, then that is what is "proper" for an approach in
that airplane. This isn't the case, you are free to use whatever setting
you want. It's nice to use at least 20 degrees to give you a slower
landing speed and a better pitch at touchdown, but if you're on an
approach at half flaps at the proper airspeed and the power setting you
like, and you don't need to descend steeper, then don't dump full flaps!
There are cases where full flaps are great, short and soft field landings
and steeper approached come to mind.
So the answer is: Get good at making approaches and landings with all flap
settings, then use whatever you need for the situation.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Say NO to useless over-quoting! Just quote a few lines to get the
point across, not the whole goddamn thing, OK? Thanks! :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------
BTIZ
I believe (don't have my old C-172 POH handy), that less than full flaps is
recommended for max cross wind landings..
I'm sure the "old" C-150 did (40degree flaps).. and the C-152 went to
30degree flaps
BT
"Roger Halstead" <rdha...@tm.net> wrote in message
news:sffafvguousjahbb6...@4ax.com...
Roger Halstead
wrote:
>ok... what does the POH say about use of flaps with cross winds..
I don't know, but what does that have to do with my post?
OTOH the FAA view on this has changed back and forth from "IF you got
'em, use 'em" to "use what ever is necessary".
Information in older POHs has been known to become obsolete. They get
additions and deletions...at least I still get them from time-to-time
for the Deb.
>
>I believe (don't have my old C-172 POH handy), that less than full flaps is
>recommended for max cross wind landings..
>
Most say "as needed" (in the Deb POH) which pretty much leaves it up
to the pilot. I can and do practice no flap landings, but it sure
does use a lot of runway.
>I'm sure the "old" C-150 did (40degree flaps).. and the C-152 went to
>30degree flaps
Although I favor using full flaps, I do think it depends on wing
loading, individual aircraft characteristics, and the pilot. I'd
certainly not want to do it in a 172, or 150 without a lot of flying
and tests. That's not saying they won't do it. It's saying It's been
a long time since I flew a 150 or a 172 on a real windy day. I did
put about 5 or 6 hours on a 172 a couple of years ago and all landings
were full flap, but none were in strong gusty cross winds.
However I did come across my first long cross country which was in a
150. I landed at Cheboygan MI with a 90 degree cross wind from the
left. The wind was so strong I was watching the runway through the
passenger side on final. I don't remember what the wind speed was,
but I do remember it was strong enough I was a bit worried about the
wind getting under the tail when I taxied back to the runway after
refueling. (that landing was with full flaps)
BTW, I had no wind limitations on my solo endorsement and I had a lot
of X-wind practice in some rather strong winds with both instructors.
(not at the same time) prior to solo, let alone prior to the cross
country.
I am not recommending flying in strong winds, or X-winds without lots
of practice with an instructor and today they require the wind
limitations for a good reason.
OTOH (with a bit of checking), near as I can tell, I used to always
use full flaps in the Cherokee 180. (It's been a while)
I was taught full flaps (unless I thought other wise) and I've pretty
much stuck with full flaps.
Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>
<snip for brevity>
Tony Roberts
> What's the combined wisdom say on the subject of kneeboards? I've done a
> little looking and there are so many choices.
Hi Dick
I have one but I rarely use it.
When flying solo I keep the belt fastened tightly over the passenger seat
and I tuck my clipboard, charts and flashlights under the belt. When
flying with a passenger I let them hold all of this stuff and tell them
that this is what copilots are for :)
Works for me . . .
If you really do want one, try out a lapboard, before you buy a kneeboard.
I do use my lapboard occasionally - pretty cool - you can even make
sandwiches in flight :) Way better than a kneeboard. Sporty's sells them.
--
Tony Roberts (tonyroberts@ remove shaw.ca)
PP-ASEL
VFR-OTT - Night
Cessna 172 C-GICE
Maule Driver
bill. I use a very thin 'smoked plexi' like 8.5X11 clipboard used in
landscape.
The key to chart organization is careful, aggressive folding before the
flight.
I use dull golf pencils instead of pens. Pencils are zero G capable,
impervious to vacuum, don't leak, don't require closure, etc Cheap2. The
little coiled wire pencil holders from Sportys are great holders. Have one
riveted to my board and clamped to the panel.
In addition to the clip on the clipboard, I mounted a 'money clip' type flat
steel clip to the board. Good for slipping a flight log or other paper in
place for freqs, notes, etc.
The whole thing stays on my lab because my arms rest on it. I can throw the
whole thing in back seat pocket as needed and retrieve in one simple motion.
"Dick Watson" <littlegr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:bd2pct$gnh$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...
> What's the combined wisdom say on the subject of kneeboards? I've done a
> little looking and there are so many choices.
>
> I did a pre-xc solo phase check today with the chief pilot and "crap
> management" in the cockpit was on of the things that I had the most
trouble
> with. Charts x3, a pen, checklists, nav log, writing down times at
waypoints
> and t/o, etc. I got a Sanford/Parker "Slinger" pen (a pen on a neck
lanyard)
> this afternoon at OfficeMax; we'll see if that helps.
>
> Other than that and a troublesome simulated soft field landing in a stiff
> xwind I did pretty well and he signed me off. On the landing, I was too
slow
> and running pretty much out of authority before I was on the runway. I
also
> wish I'd been doing it with flaps 20 or less instead of 30. Oh, and a
NORDO
> guy in the pattern and so on.
>
> He also taught me a different setup for the power off stall--in a final
> approach descent; apparently that's what the PTS is now calling for.
>
Maule Driver
my Maule specifically points out that less than full flap can be used in
xwind conditions. Even negative flaps can be used.
My experience is that less than full flaps are required for very gusty
and/or strong xwinds in the Maule. May be a tailwheel thing.
"Roger Halstead" <rdha...@tm.net> wrote in message
news:sffafvguousjahbb6...@4ax.com...
>
Ben Jackson
Maule Driver <Maule...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>As others have suggested, some form of a regular clip board may fit the
>bill. I use a very thin 'smoked plexi' like 8.5X11 clipboard used in
That's how I made my first one. The thing I started with was actually
meant to hold a piece of paper as a sign, and I cut it down to a
rectangle. That way I could put something inside it (eg destination
airport diagram) and clip stuff on top with a large clip.
>I use dull golf pencils instead of pens.
That's what I used for the above clipboard. I wrapped the soft part of
some adhesive velcro on the end of the pencil and put the sharp part on
the metal clip. Then I found out I couldn't read pencil in the dark.
Ryan
the AFD and a couple of sectionals.
Roger Halstead
<da...@megginson.com> wrote:
>"Russ" <m...@seattle.wa> writes:
>
>> "RTMorgan" <RTMorga...@NOSPAMv1rotate.com> wrote in message
>> news:2ed884b7a9d8dce3...@free.teranews.com...
>
>> > Don't be one of those lousy pilots that that foolishly thinks that
>> > there are times you should land with less than full flaps. If it
>> > is your prefference then you just lack the skill to land the
>> > aircraft properly. Anyone who tells you different is just a pilot
>> > that need to get some experience under their belt.
>>
>> Am I the only one who was taught that there are plenty of times when
>> less than full flaps are appropriate?
>
>I don't know about plenty of times, but you certainly don't want any
>flaps if there is ice on the plane.
I had forgotten about that one, as I am paranoid about ice...but when
you come in with a boat load of ice in a Bo, the normal procedure is
no flaps and hope the runway isn't slipery. Mine says "known ice
prohibited" but once in a while you fine a wee bit where you don't
expect it.
Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>
>
>All the best,
>
>
>David
lardsoup
sectionals in the right pocket. Barf bag, snot rag, spare mechanical
pencil, plotter and gage covers in the left pocket. In the plastic folders
I have an emergency engine out check list, a list of all local airports with
CTAF, elevation and runway headings, and end of runway sweep check and
approach and landing check lists. I also use a plastic folder to hold a 5x8
yellow pad of paper to write on. Then the clip board is free to hold
flights plans, approach plates, airport diagrams, or what ever. Just unfold
the knee board and everything is ready to go, same place every time and
after the flight just fold up and in the bag it goes. Easy. And since I'm
not a professional pilot, I can buy and use all the cool pilot stuff I want.
Knee boards, portable GPS, fuel hawks, hat with wings on it, license plate
holders that say " I'd rather be flying", leather headset bag, flight bag
with pins from my Air Force days stuck on it, t-shirts with airplanes on
them. Have fun.
Dom
flaps if there's ice on the plane.
thanks,
Dom
--
"David Megginson" <da...@megginson.com> wrote in message
news:87of0p7...@megginson.com...
David Megginson
> Question from Australia where we don't get too much ice: why don't
> you use flaps if there's ice on the plane.
A horizontal stabilizer stall is almost guaranteed to kill you, and if
the hstab has ice, you no longer know anything about its stalling
characteristics. That's why you want to approach relatively fast and
why you don't want to apply flaps and possibly change the airflow over
the hstab.
Roger Halstead
>Question from Australia where we don't get too much ice: why don't you use
>flaps if there's ice on the plane.
For a couple of reasons.
If there's ice on the wings there's most likely ice on the horizontal
stab. You no longer have any idea as to what speed the tail will stall
and a tail stall on final can ruin your whole day.
You are also carrying a lot of extra weight. You could easily be over
gross by many hundreds of pounds...If there's much ice you really have
no way of knowing how much weight and thus you don't know your stall
speed.
The wing not only has changed texture, but shape as well. It's kind
of scary to see a three to four inch "horn" of ice sticking out from
the leading edge along with about an inch build up on top of the
leading edge. Again, you have no idea as to how much that has changed
the wings characteristics, except it won't be for the better.
Ice is scary stuff.
Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>
>thanks,
>
>Dom
III
even in strong, gusty crosswinds in typical tricycle geared planes
(unless the POH says otherwise.) Maybe the airplane is a bit tougher
to handle in the air, maybe not. I think the difference is on the
runway. With full flaps, the plane will slow down faster and be easier
to control on the runway (keep the yoke all the way back to keep
weight on the mains.) I've read that most accidents on landing are
loss-of-control on the runway, not in the air. Full flaps should help
prevent post-landing problems.
Michael
> than full flaps are appropriate?
Full flaps are appropriate for most landings in most airplanes.
Sometimes it's appropriate to use something less than full flaps but
that's the exception, not the rule.
While the original post had the flavor of troll, the truth is that
lots of pilots are indeed skill-deficient in this area, and are
unnecessarily landing too fast too often.
> Gusty conditions and a long runway - I fly 10 degrees of flaps, more as
> needed, and a higher approach speed.
Depends on the airplane. Some have this problem where the disturbed
air off the flaps affects the tail (especially in a slip) and causes
pitch oscillations, which makes landing in stiff crosswinds with full
flaps impractical. I know everyone is going to yell Cessna 172, but
in fact the plane I've flown where this was most pronounced (far more
than in any Cessna) was the Piper Pawnee - which has no placards or
warnings of any kind about this. Why Cessna felt it necessary to warn
pilots about the relatively mild pitch excursions in the C-172 while
Piper did not feel the need to inform the pilots about the far more
pronounced pitch excursions in the PA-25 is left as an exercise for
the reader.
Realistically, a C-172 only needs to be landed with reduced flaps when
the crosswind component exceeds 15 kts or so. When people tell me
they're landing a C-172 with only 10 degrees of flaps because winds
are 15G20 at 30 degrees to the runway, I have to ask why.
> Approach over water - I fly 10-15 degrees until I know I've got the runway
> made, then will add more flaps as needed. Dumping in a bunch of flaps early
> means I'm going for a swim if the engine quits. Less flaps and I might just
> make the glide to the shoreline.
Well, nobody says you need to fly the entire pattern with full flaps.
I don't normally put in full flaps until short final. The point is to
have full flaps for touchdown.
> I certainly don't ALWAYS go full flaps. I don't see the point of making a
> drastic configuation change like dumping full flaps on short final when
> you've got a stabalized approach and plenty of runway to work with.
But that is exactly what you will need to do in the event of an
emergency landing - why not practice it now? Stabilized approaches
for light piston singles are WAY overrated. It's a great idea for a
student struggling with landings, but a proficient pilot certainly
should be able to dump full flaps on short final and still make a
pretty landing in a light single.
> This is
> with C172s and 182s. Could I land the airplane with full flaps every time?
> Probably - but I feel a lot safer and a lot less "foolish" if I use the
> configuration I think is appropriate for the situation.
Well, the fact is that slower is safer, and landing with flaps allows
you to land slower. Any time you are landing with less than 20
degrees of flaps or so, you're landing substantially faster than
necessary.
First off, this means extra wear and tear on tires, bearings, brakes,
etc. Even if nothing ever goes wrong, you're increasing costs. But
things do go wrong. Brakes have a nasty tendency to lock up when you
least expect it. The slower you touch down, the better your chances
of keeping the airplane under control when it happens. If an animal
runs out onto the runway, being at a lower speed gives you more
options to avoid it by making a sharper turn and also reduces the
energy of impact if you should hit it.
Mainly, though, there are control issues. Sure, being a little faster
and flying partial flaps means the plane feels crisper and responds
better at the higher speed. But you're going to have to slow down
eventually. Either you're going to have to slow down in the flare, or
you're going to put it on the ground fast.
Putting it on the ground fast is asking for an accident.
Wheelbarrowing a tri-gear airplane is just as ugly as groundlooping a
taildragger - maybe worse.
Slowing down in the flare is fine - if you can pull it off. The
crosswind will be constantly changing, the airspeed will be constantly
changing, and you have to maintain altitude within a foot or two and
track within a degree or two, or you're going to balloon, hit the
ground fast, land with sideloads, drift off the runway, whatever. Can
it be done? Sure. But if you have the skill to pull that off, you
have the skill to fly the plane down final and into the flare with
full flaps and at the correct airspeed.
Michael
MC
I use an A4-sized clipboard in 'landscape' mode, with
a strip of velcro on the right-hand side to hold the
oppositely-velcroed mechanical-pencil and eraser.
zip777
gusty cross wind and I was kinda successful doing so.
Edward Todd
chines...@hotmail.com (zip777) wrote:
> Once I was taught to land a Cessna 150 without using any flaps in a
> gusty cross wind and I was kinda successful doing so.
Back in '76 when I got my PPL, my first 20 or so landings were with no
flaps, before my instructor ever let me use them.
Edward
Dave Russell
> Am I the only one who was taught that there are plenty of times when less
> than full flaps are appropriate?
Flaps? Why? I've never once used flaps since I bought my airplane. :-)
-Dave Russell
8KCAB
Dave Stadt
"Dave Russell" <pull...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:49785d7a.0306...@posting.google.com...
Me either. Didn't know it was such a big deal.
C120
Greg Burkhart (MN)
news:2OsLa.4750$BM.23...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
Flaps??? What flaps!!! We don't need no steenkeen FLAPS... Or even RUDDER
PEDDLES!
-Greg Burkhart
Ercoupe
John Roncallo
winds. The first time I was in a C172 with winds 30 gusting to 45 about 20°
to 50° off the runway. My instructor insisted on full flaps and after the
flight showed me an FAA paper recommending full flaps.
The second time I was in a Piper Archer winds 30 gusting to 45 and peek gust
recorded at 55. These winds were about 70° to 90° to the runway. My
instructor did all of the landings that day. Flaps were all the way down.
John Roncallo
"Roger Halstead" <rdha...@tm.net> wrote in message
news:tr0dfv427516ridn1...@4ax.com...
David Megginson
> I have been up on 2 occasions with my instructor in what I call very
> strong winds. The first time I was in a C172 with winds 30 gusting
> to 45 about 20° to 50° off the runway. My instructor insisted on
> full flaps and after the flight showed me an FAA paper recommending
> full flaps.
>
> The second time I was in a Piper Archer winds 30 gusting to 45 and
> peek gust recorded at 55. These winds were about 70° to 90° to the
> runway. My instructor did all of the landings that day. Flaps were
> all the way down.
Part of the problem might be the definition of "good landing".
Consider the following:
1. The plane touches a few knots too fast, but the wheels just
barely kiss the runway and the passengers have to look out the
window to be sure that you've actually landed.
2. The plane touches down right at stall speed with a harmless but
noticeable jolt as one wheel and then the other slaps onto the
runway.
Seriously, including ego, which landing would you be more proud of?
In a strong crosswind, landing #1 is easier to pull off without flaps
(gentler flare) and will impress the hell out of everyone on board,
while landing #2 is more likely with full flaps and at best will
result in a polite silence from the pax.
As far as I understand the FAA, Rick Durden's posts, and all the other
information flying through these threads, it's #2 that's actually the
better crosswind landing.
Maule Driver
own.
Full flaps in a Maule with a healthy xwind will make for a very bad day.
See "Ground Loop" thread. Even though Maule may have the thinnest POH in
the industry, they specifically suggest reduced flaps in such situations.
Even negative flaps.
"John Roncallo" <jron...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:Ce7Ta.11513$q11.333...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
Dudley Henriques
"Maule Driver" <Maule...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:e9gTa.335896$jp.87...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> Depends on the plane. POH is place to start. Then you are kind of on
your
> own.
>
> Full flaps in a Maule with a healthy xwind will make for a very bad day.
> See "Ground Loop" thread. Even though Maule may have the thinnest POH in
> the industry, they specifically suggest reduced flaps in such situations.
> Even negative flaps.
I heartedly agree with this thinking. It depends on the airplane, and the
POH is the place to go for the final word on any given type. Flap
effectiveness varies greatly from type to type, and like everything else in
flying, the exact procedure for you is dependent on exactly what you're
flying.
There's always a trade off between weathervane effect, airspeed, runway
length available for the landing, and wind velocity and direction. I've
never been a fan of blanket "covers everything" procedures when it comes to
flying airplanes. The bottom line is that you should weigh all the options
that apply EVERY TIME, then fly the airplane within the confines of the
recommended procedure and within the stated parameters of the POH. Pilots
should learn to be flexible within these limitations. In my opinion there
should not be a blanket "do it this way all the time" procedure for flaps
use.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI
Retired
Roger Halstead
<da...@megginson.com> wrote:
>"John Roncallo" <jron...@snet.net> writes:
<snip>
>Seriously, including ego, which landing would you be more proud of?
>In a strong crosswind, landing #1 is easier to pull off without flaps
>(gentler flare) and will impress the hell out of everyone on board,
>while landing #2 is more likely with full flaps and at best will
>result in a polite silence from the pax.
With practice there is no reason the full flap landing can't be a
greaser as well. Actually you should be able to do a full stall
landing with full flaps as a greaser.
Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>