too slow on flare
d...@longhands.org
very end and wound up dropping the plane down onto the runway kind of hard.
Not enough to cause any damage or anything, but still...too hard. I was
wondering what people's recommendations were on what to do once in this
situation (I know avoiding it is best!). If the wings aren't stalling yet is
it safe to pull back and flare even more? When this is happening I am afraid
making the situation worse by increasing the flare.
--thanks, dan.
mi...@dlogue.net
"Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche covers this situation very
thoroughly throughout the whole book. I can't recommend the book enough.
-Michel
D. Jacobs
Dan, I'm no longer cert'd to fly until I go back and get some more
dual, physical exam and then take the bi-ennial but I think I can help
to explain the situation in terms of what should be happening during
the landing: The flair is the name given to the maneuver that
transitions from approach flight to landing attitude and speed. The
flair begins usually at a point in the decent where you know that if
delayed any longer, the main gear will touch down too hard on the
runway. Therefore, the point when the flair begins is related to the
altitude above the runway.
The ideal execution of the flair should result in a reduction or halt
of the decent rate and should not include *any* gain in altitude from
the beginning of the flair until the wheels touch down.
So when you asked whether it's safe to pull back and flair even more,
all I can say to that is that you should keep the wheels level above
the ground and if the plane balloons or wants to climb due to, say, a
gust or uneven wind flow, you have to decide on a split-second whether
you have enough runway / airspeed to continue the landing safely. If
the plane balloons badly after or during the flair, it's best to not
try to salvage the remaining landing attempt and play it safe by
adding full power, 20deg of flaps and go around. (at least that's how
I remember it).
So, the bottom line in what I'm trying to point out is that after
you've begun the flair maneuver, the goal is simply to keep the wheels
low but level above the ground and let your reflexes control the pitch
as necessary to *maintain that attitude and altitude* (1 - 2 feet
wheel altitude above the ground, say).
Another important point is that it's not a big problem to let the
wheels touch down before the wing stalls as long as they touch down
very softly. Of course make sure the speed is close to the stall speed
or just slightly above if you want to fly it all the way onto the
ground.
Hope this helps and I hope I didn't patronize.
Dave
JerryK
that if you are real close to stall speed, hauling back on the yoke is not
the thing to do. Did your instructor talk about a target airspeed? In a
152, I use about 65 knots over the fence myself.
Jerry
<d...@longhands.org> wrote in message
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John Roncallo
d...@longhands.org wrote:
> I was practice landings in a 152 today and on one of them was too slow at the
> very end and wound up dropping the plane down onto the runway kind of hard.
It wasn't too slow it was too high. Slow is good in fact I like to hear the stall
warning horn on at this point. If you find yourself in this situation where you
are dropping from too high an altitude, just give it a shot of power, just enough
to slow the rate of descent. Of course not getting too high to begin with is the
better idea.
>
> Not enough to cause any damage or anything, but still...too hard. I was
> wondering what people's recommendations were on what to do once in this
> situation (I know avoiding it is best!). If the wings aren't stalling yet is
> it safe to pull back and flare even more?
If the stall warning horn is already on (but your not yet in a stall) and your
too high then it is not safe. You will need experience to judge this.
> When this is happening I am afraid
> making the situation worse by increasing the flare.
>
> --thanks, dan.
John Roncallo
J&D Kahn
is your only friend.
At a certain point when you are too slow, pitching up more only increases
the rate of sink. Having gotten yourself into that corner, you should not
be afraid to add power to reduce your sink rate.
It's not good to get into the habit of it because in more demanding aircraft
you can get yourself into a box you can't get out of. With laminar airfoils
the drag and the sink rate really goes up as you get near the stall and even
a big shot of power won't get you out of it, and if it's a turbine aircraft
the power will come on too late to do you any good anyway. In view of the
fact that many students are moving on to more advanced aircraft, the early
teaching of proper speed control is priority #1 from a safety point of view.
So, if you find you've been sleeping on the speed control and you're
starting to sink just when you're trying to reduce sink rate in the flare,
bring in some throtttle and if you're not too close to the stall you can
raise the nose a little too, but not too much. You will probably find you
add too much power and pitch and the airplane ends up ballooning a little.
If you find yourself all out of kilter by that time, punch it and go around.
It will take practice to get a smooth recovery from that kind of situation.
It's partly an issue of having to internalize the basic skills of flaring to
land, so that you can divert your attention to other things like decisions
about adding power. You can't move on to the next step in adding to a skill
until you have internalized the first one.
Once you have internalized all the skills (they come without thinking) you
will be able to recover most bad approaches without having to do go-arounds
or dropping the thing in.
The key to speed control is understanding that elevator is primary to speed,
and that trim is primary to determining the speed the aircraft will
naturally want to maintain without you fighting it.
If your speed is wandering too much you are probably not using trim
effectively. Trim to the approach speed. You should be able to let go of
the controls at the 152's approach speed and it will more or less stay at
that speed. If you have to apply more than finger tip pressure to keep
speed constant it means you are not at your trim speed. If you have to hold
pressure you will inevitably deviate because it's just about impossible to
keep pitch attitude and speed constant if it takes a constant 5 lbs of force
to keep it there once your attention is diverted by something. Use pitch
attitude as a guide to keeping speed constant as well. Power being
constant, a constant pitch attitude equals a constant speed.
Don't get frustrated with making mistakes. You won't be graded so much on
your perfection as how well you handle and recover from imperfection.
In the end, it's practice practice practice, like everything else in life...
JohnK
<d...@longhands.org> wrote in message
news:m3u24or...@beethoven.longhands.org...
Scott
situation you describe most likely has happened to everyone more than once
and in fact a lot early on in training. It usually is caused, in my
opinion, because judgement about height over the runway is not consistant in
early training nor is a perfect mastery of speed. Fortunetly these planes
are made to take just this sort of abuse from students and non-students.
Pulling back and flaring more is exactly the wrong thing to do. This will
make it much worse and will certainly cause a stall and hard landing. My
recommendation should you find that you flared too early, is to apply
partial power, level out again, reduce power and try the flare again at a
more appropriate height. I did this more than a few times in a 152 when
learning to land. With a little power and pitch control, you should easly
be able to correct the situation.
Good luck.
--- Scott
<d...@longhands.org> wrote in message
news:m3u24or...@beethoven.longhands.org...
Gene Whitt
My first landing lesson consists only of go-arounds. I
want my students to accept the go-around as the first and
best option when something is not right.
Gene Whitt
Bob Gardner
spend. Two ways to get more energy...lower the nose (not recommended) or add
some power. Pulling back on the stick further reduces kinetic energy, to say
nothing of increasing angle of attack, and is not a good idea. Use the
throttle if there is sufficient runway remaining, otherwise go around.
Bob Gardner
<d...@longhands.org> wrote in message
news:m3u24or...@beethoven.longhands.org...
Aaron
<d...@longhands.org> wrote in message
news:m3u24or...@beethoven.longhands.org...
highflyer
>
> Why are you trying to do a full stall landing in a 152? You are correct
> that if you are real close to stall speed, hauling back on the yoke is not
> the thing to do. Did your instructor talk about a target airspeed? In a
> 152, I use about 65 knots over the fence myself.
>
> Jerry
Because it is the best way to land an airplane. I do hope you do not
attempt to land C-152's at 65 knots! That seems to me to be excessive,
not just over the fence but even for the approach. I am sure that
crossing the threshold at 65 knots would make for excessive float before
the airplane can be slowed enough to properly land.
If any student of mine attempted to land a C-152 at 65 knots, I would
revoke his endorsements until we undid the bad habits. :-)
--
HighFlyer
Highflight Aviation Services
highflyer
Just feed in a bit of power to decrease the descent rate without
decreasing
the speed any. Sometimes quite a bit! :-) The trick is to maintain
your
angle of attack just below the stall angle, while settling gently onto
the
runway. Every bit of energy you supply at that time from the engine is
energy that you do NOT have to obtain by converting your scant remaining
altitude into energy. :-)
mike regish
Doesn't sound like you're too slow. It sounds like you're too high. You
want to round out (get the plane in the landing attitude) 5 or 10 feet
up and hold it there as your speed bleeds off. I usually do this over
any displaced threshold or before the numbers, if possible. As you start
settling towards the runway, you have to sort of feel for the runway
with your wheels. As they get closer (and you'll be able to tell this
better with practice) continue to pull back and try to keep the wheels
from touching until the yoke is all the way back. Ideally, the wheels
will touch at the same time you reach the stop with the yoke. The stall
horn should be going off through most of the flare as it usually starts
going off several knots before the actual stall. You are also in ground
effect, so the wings will provide lift even though you are below the
normal stall speed, but you shouldn't be looking at your ASI-you should
be looking down the runway. You need to develop the sight picture of
what the runway looks like just as the wheels touch down in the landing
attitude. This also comes with practice. Keep the yoke back and let the
nosewheel settle down all by itself. If you start to balloon as you are
rounding out, hold the yoke still. Don't push the nose down. You could
hit the nosewheel first, which is a big no-no. Your speed will decay and
you will start to settle. If you start to settle too fast, pull back
enough to slow the descent. As you get better, you will be able to feel
when the plane is slowing and descending smoothly and you will make a
steady, smooth pull on the yoke that reaches the stop just as the wheels
are touching down.
Somebody said you didn't want to do a full stall landing in a 152. As
far as I know, you want to do a full stall landing in any single you
fly. My DE demanded it on my checkride in a 150. I can think of no
reason not to do a full stall landing. If, as you are bleeding off your
speed above the runway, you find that you are running out of runway, it
means you were too fast on your approach and you have to decide when
it's time to go around. Somebody else mentioned the steps for a go
around, but missed one part. In a go around, first go to full power. (Go
to carb heat cold if you used carb heat. You can do that at the same
time or immediately after.) Before you reduce flaps to 20 degrees, make
sure you have established a positive climb rate. You can do this
visually, with the VSI or the altimeter. If you reduce flaps before you
start to climb, you could end up on the runway, where you don't want to
be in a go around.
Hope this helps. Keep practicing. You'll get it.
--
mike regish
1953 TriPacer
N3428A
ShawnD2112
included here) is that your job as the landing pilot is to fly the airplane
6" above the runway and not let it land. This means that as you flare and
the airplane slows, you have to keep increasing backpressure slowly to keep
the airplane in the air. Don't "pull back" or she'll balloon on you but
practice the same technique you use when you're doing stalls - keep the
altitude the same with increasing backpressure as you slow until it cleanly
stalls. Same exact technique but watch the end of the runway for visual
clues to height, not the altimeter. If you keep the airplane from landing,
she won't settle until she's good and ready. Works like a charm!!
Shawn
d...@longhands.org wrote in message ...
Dylan Smith
>Somebody said you didn't want to do a full stall landing in a 152. As
>far as I know, you want to do a full stall landing in any single you
>fly.
Except a tailwheel aircraft when you're trying to do a wheel landing ;-)
(A wheel landing for those who don't yet know is where you land on the
main wheels, and in the tailwheel planes I fly, you stick it on with a
slight amount of forward yoke. Very good in gusty conditions, since a gust
will not unexpectedly lift you airborne again, as it can if you three-point
in gusty conditions. I tend to use wheel landings when it is gusty, and
let the tail down when I'm well below flying speed in the three-point
attitude. Actually, last Saturday I didn't do this and three-pointed in
fairly gusty conditions. I was just congratulating myself for doing one
of those landings when all three wheels just start rolling - you don't
even feel the touchdown - when a fairly strong gust got me airborne again.
The resulting "touchdown" was better described as a "collision with the
runway" <g>)
But for everything else, I aim for a stall landing - whether it's
a C150 or an S-35 Bonanza. It's worked for me pretty well.
--
Dylan Smith, Houston, TX
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"
JerryK
landing. If I am 65 over the fence I will be in the 50's or less when the
wheels touch. Perhaps we have terminology difference. By over the fence I
mean 1500 feet or so before the runway threshold, where the airport property
line is.
jerry
"highflyer" <high...@alt.net> wrote in message
news:3AB8C149...@alt.net...
J&D Kahn
It also relieves the student of the pressure of trying to transition to
landing before
he is familiar with the approach.
John
Gene Whitt <gwh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:999ck6$7kq$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
d...@longhands.org
I feel better equipped for avoiding this situation in the future and dealing
with it should it arise again!
Appreciatively,
dan.
highflyer
>
> Must be me then. The last thing I want to do is stall the plane in a
> landing. If I am 65 over the fence I will be in the 50's or less when the
> wheels touch. Perhaps we have terminology difference. By over the fence I
> mean 1500 feet or so before the runway threshold, where the airport property
> line is.
>
> jerry
>
And you are still talking knots! The Cessna 152 stalls at 38 knots or
thereabouts. You should be touching down around 41 or 42 and the
"eminent landing" horn should have been sounding loud and clear BEFORE
you land.
I do see people all of the time landing 150's at fifty knots. They are
essentially "three point" landing them. If you are doing that you are
right on the ragged edge of a wheelbarrow and likely either fold up
the nose gear or ground loop.
And yes, you can indeed groundloop a tricycle gear airplane. I have
seen it done. They tend to go over forward like a milkstool. It
usually does far more damage than groundlooping a taildragger.
Dylan Smith
>And yes, you can indeed groundloop a tricycle gear airplane. I have
>seen it done. They tend to go over forward like a milkstool. It
>usually does far more damage than groundlooping a taildragger.
>
I saw the results of a groundlooped nosewheel plane. The wing had contacted
the ground hard enough to actually bend the spar, and the nosegear
was collapsed. It was a Cessna 150, and a tragic sight.
I've seen our club C170 groundlooped twice by students, but no damage was
done either time. There's plenty of space to run off the runway at SPX
without hitting any obstacles!
JerryK
long time if you want.
I suppose I don't fly 152 enough. Most of my time is twins. You never want
to hear a stall horn in one of those.
"highflyer" <high...@alt.net> wrote in message
news:3ABA1773...@alt.net...
highflyer
>
> Why are they three point landings? You can hold the nose of a 152 off for a
> long time if you want.
>
A "three point" landing is one where all three wheels contact the ground
at the same time. This represents a specific angle of attack at
touchdown.
A specific angle of attack represents a specific speed in unaccellerated
level flight. In a tricycle gear airplane the "three point" speed is
the
UPPER limit of your landing envelope. You really want to slow below
that
speed to land.
In a taildragger, the "three point" angle of attack is generally
designed
when the aircraft is set up to be slightly, usually ten to fifteen
percent,
above the stall speed in the landing configuration and is generally
considered to be the "optimum" landing speed angle of attack. Most
taildraggers can be landed slower, but that results in Maule's
"double whomp" landing, when the tailwheel lands first. A tail dragger
can be landed at any speed it can safely fly although the higher speeds
can be hard on the wheel bearings.
Even in a twin you actual touchdown should be slow enough that the nose
wheel is safely off the runway when the main touch. That can be a
problem with a Twin Comanche, and many owners have the mod that allows
a smaller diameter nosewheel than the original, to make it a bit easier
to keep it clear of the runway on landing.
I noticed that even the "Big Twin", the Boeing 777, lands with its nose
wheel well clear of the runway when the mains touch down.
> I suppose I don't fly 152 enough. Most of my time is twins. You never want
> to hear a stall horn in one of those.
>
Roger Halstead
"JerryK" <jer...@acrues.com> wrote in message
news:3ab80...@news4.newsfeeds.com...
> Why are you trying to do a full stall landing in a 152?
Because it's the best way to put an airplane on the runway at the slowest
possible speed.
They do take more skill, and being able to do them consistently is something
in which to be proud.
> You are correct
> that if you are real close to stall speed, hauling back on the yoke is not
> the thing to do. Did your instructor talk about a target airspeed? In a
> 152, I use about 65 knots over the fence myself.
Is that what's in the POH?
Always fly by the numbers in the book.
There are formulas, and "rules of thumb" for varying the speed according to
how heavily loaded it is.
In the Deb I subtract one MPH for each 100# under gross.
--
Roger Halstead (K8RI)
WWW.RogerHalstead.com
N833R (World's Oldest Debonair? S# CD-2)
Roger Halstead
> Must be me then. The last thing I want to do is stall the plane in a
> landing.
No...That's exactly what you are supposed to be able to do.
Roger (K8RI)
Roger Halstead
"J&D Kahn" <jkahnREMOVE...@aei.ca> wrote in message
news:98514661...@news.aei.ca...
> A golden rule of flying Dan: If you are too slow close to the ground,
power
> is your only friend.
>
> At a certain point when you are too slow, pitching up more only increases
> the rate of sink. Having gotten yourself into that corner, you should not
> be afraid to add power to reduce your sink rate.
>
> It's not good to get into the habit of it because in more demanding
aircraft
> you can get yourself into a box you can't get out of. With laminar
airfoils
> the drag and the sink rate really goes up as you get near the stall and
even
> a big shot of power won't get you out of it,
That depends...With high power piston engines the danger is not so much
being able to climb (The Debonair and Bonanza will vietually catepault out
of ground effect, *BUT* the sudden application of power at low air speed can
cause the airplane to roll right on over. Not usualy considered a good
thing when only 20-30 feet above the runway. <:-))
> and if it's a turbine aircraft
> the power will come on too late to do you any good anyway.
In many turboprop engines the power is there as the engine is already
"spooled up" but the prop is in fine pitch producing about zip for thrust.
Like the big piston engines, going to 100% torque at low speed and full rpm
can make things more than a little interesting and add more excitement than
most of us want to complete our day.
> In view of the
> fact that many students are moving on to more advanced aircraft, the early
> teaching of proper speed control is priority #1 from a safety point of
view.
>
> So, if you find you've been sleeping on the speed control and you're
> starting to sink just when you're trying to reduce sink rate in the flare,
Many high performance airplanes are well into the area where they are having
to add power the slower they go.
A normal approach "by the book" for me, it to be near slow cruise power.
A no power glide is 10 to 20 MPH faster than the normal book figures for
final and best glide is at least 40 MPH faster. Normal final is 80 MPH
minus one MPH for each 100# under gross, a no power final is 90 MPH (the
extra speed is to get enough energy to flare) and best glide is 120 MPH.
> bring in some throtttle and if you're not too close to the stall you can
> raise the nose a little too, but not too much. You will probably find you
> add too much power and pitch and the airplane ends up ballooning a little.
> If you find yourself all out of kilter by that time, punch it and go
around.
> It will take practice to get a smooth recovery from that kind of
situation.
A botched landing is no place for pride...<:-)).
I always plane on a balked landing and figure the real thing as a bonus.
>
> It's partly an issue of having to internalize the basic skills of flaring
to
> land, so that you can divert your attention to other things like decisions
> about adding power. You can't move on to the next step in adding to a
skill
> until you have internalized the first one.
>
I much prefer to using a skill until the subscioscous takes over.
Internalizing, doesn't necessiarily mean the same thing.
> Once you have internalized all the skills (they come without thinking) you
> will be able to recover most bad approaches without having to do
go-arounds
> or dropping the thing in.
>
> The key to speed control is understanding that elevator is primary to
speed,
> and that trim is primary to determining the speed the aircraft will
> naturally want to maintain without you fighting it.
>
> If your speed is wandering too much you are probably not using trim
> effectively. Trim to the approach speed. You should be able to let go of
> the controls at the 152's approach speed and it will more or less stay at
> that speed. If you have to apply more than finger tip pressure to keep
> speed constant it means you are not at your trim speed.
Actually, we should be able to fly any part of the *normal* flight envelope
with only two fingers. When in IMC I use two fingers and then, I use them
only to nudge the yoke. The airplane behaves much better when I ask it to
do something rather than forcing it to comply. <:-))
If you have to hold
> pressure you will inevitably deviate because it's just about impossible to
> keep pitch attitude and speed constant if it takes a constant 5 lbs of
force
I believe on a go around, the Deb takes about 40# to hold the yoke forward
until the trim is adjusted.
It acellerates very fast and the yoke force is tied to airspeed Vs trim
speed.
--
Roger Halstead (K8RI)
WWW.RogerHalstead.com
N833R (World's Oldest Debonair? S# CD-2)
> to keep it there once your attention is diverted by something. Use pitch
rdac
a bit of a bump,
but soon worked out if you just use a little throttle to arrest the float,
then off again work's
fine.
student pilot almost ppl
mike regish
> >
> >I have landed few times with the stall warning blarring and came down with
> a bit of a bump,
> but soon worked out if you just use a little throttle to arrest the float,
> then off again work's
> fine.
>
> student pilot almost ppl
What works better is to pull the yoke to the stops. There's no reason to
need throttle to make a soft landing. I'll bet you a nickel you're not
using the full travel of the elevator.
David M.
situation. It's good to get the feel of how much power to add I think because it
also is great on a soft field. Granted, the C-152 is a different beast. It lands
15 knots slower. Best of luck with this. (By the way, I landed as Cherrokee too
hard yesterday).
St Stephen
better than trying to land at too high a speed...More incidents/accidents
occur with loss of control during a bounce or porpoise...At least when you
are too slow, once you land, you're not going anywhere!...Just work on being
a little closer to the runway, fly safe...
Blue skies,
Stephen Ames
CFII, MEI
http://www.stephenames.com/flying/flying.html
Mr. Toad
"St Stephen" <ste...@stephenames.com> wrote
> Although dropping it in from too high is not a recommended procedure it is
> better than trying to land at too high a speed...More incidents/accidents
> occur with loss of control during a bounce or porpoise...
I bounced yesterday in a C172--I believe I was about 5 knots too fast on
touchdown. The plane veered off towards the left side of the runway, still
airborne. Luckily it was a 150' wide strip without trees or other
obstructions along the side, so I quickly added full power, retracted the
flaps to 20 degrees, and went around while regaining the centerline. I
actually flew over the grass on the left side of the runway. Any ideas on
what transpired to cause this?
It must have been entertaining to watch from the restaurant. I fled the
pattern with my empennage between my legs, and flew home.
Colin Rasmussen
Combination of loss of dirctional control on touchdown combined with the
bounce from not holding it off long enough. Without knowing the wind
conditions and seeing what you did from inside, it's hard to tell
exactly. I have been noticing in students recently a pretty widespread
tendency to not keep the nose lined up right down the runway, and in
fact most are leaving the nose pointing left just before touchdown.
That definitely causes one to veer to the left.
Colin
Matthew P. Cummings
<mark_geab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I bounced yesterday in a C172--I believe I was about 5 knots too fast
on
I'm not sure that 5 knots would account for it, maybe if it dropped in a
bit possibly or if you forced it down on the runway before it was ready.
I've been 5 knots over with no problems because when it's done flying
it's done. The 5 knots over means you need more runway to land on.
> I actually flew over the grass on the left side of the runway. Any ideas
> on what transpired to cause this?
I'd guess and say that you had a crosswind come up.
For the other poster who started the thread, if I was too slow and
going to drop it in, I'd add power and reevaluate the situation. You
get to the point where you know what the plane is going to do and
can react a bit before it does, like knowing it's going to stall and
taking corrective action before it does.
Like the CFI's say, you do whatever it takes.
---
Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me - consider this
an official notice.
cummings@TRY-IT&PAYstingray.net - http://www.stingray.net/~cummings
mike regish
"Mr. Toad" wrote:
The plane veered off towards the left side of the runway, still
> airborne. Any ideas on
> what transpired to cause this?
>
St Stephen
of keeping my toes on the pedals to "feel" what they are doing and I know if
they keep flying it or not...It's a common problem...
--
Blue skies,
Stephen Ames
CFII, MEI
http://www.stephenames.com/flying/flying.html
"Colin Rasmussen" <as...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3ADB6434...@sk.sympatico.ca...
St Stephen
change with weight, if you were solo and tried to land at the "airspeed" you
may have been well over 5 kts too fast...Talk to your instructor about
this...Va, Vbg(best glide), Vso and Vs change with weight and you should
know what these new numbers are when you solo...
Refer to my response to Colin's post for more info on possibles...
--
Blue skies,
Stephen Ames
CFII, MEI
http://www.stephenames.com/flying/flying.html
"Mr. Toad" <mark_geab...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tdm2nmg...@corp.supernews.com...
Dan Tappan
always more spectacular when there's an audience.
highflyer
>
> I've accepted it as a rule in aviation that landing performance is
> always more spectacular when there's an audience.
>
And even moreso when the audience includes numerous representatives of
the FAA.
Landing at Oshkosh in the middle of the day on THE Saturday can be a
MOST exciting experience! :-)
Roger
Roger Halstead (K8RI) www.RogerHalstead.com
N833R World's Oldest Debonair? s# CD-2
"highflyer" <high...@alt.net> wrote in message
news:3ADF4522...@alt.net...
> Dan Tappan wrote:
> >
> > I've accepted it as a rule in aviation that landing performance is
> > always more spectacular when there's an audience.
> >
>
> And even moreso when the audience includes numerous representatives of
> the FAA.
>
> Landing at Oshkosh in the middle of the day on THE Saturday can be a
> MOST exciting experience! :-)
It ain't just landings. Guess I should include the whole story...maybe?
A few years back, I had flown into Oshkosh IFR for the day. As we has kids
aboard and were sigle engine, it was a trip around the lake. Actually it
was a trip around chicago. Actually it was a trip that seemed like we were
going to do a flyover of Pinkneyville.
At any rate after a "WIDE" tour around Chicago's airspace which only allowed
an occasional glimpse of the ground, we had to fly about 30 miles back to
the East to pick up the VOR 27 approach into Whitman field.
The landing was uneventful. Twas a bit breezy, but that was right down 27.
Even with the sign in the window, it took several trips through different
areas, before the the message finally got to the tower that we were to park
right in front of them at the line shack. (special trip). So, after
getting the grand tour, they came out with the "follow me" car and took us
right across the grass and over to where we were headed.
>
The kids received their memberships and flightline passes, right after the
obligatory potty stop. Hey! We'd been in the air near 3 1/2 hours. I said
I thought they were sending us to P-ville for the grand tour.
Then we loaded them onto the welcome wagon (Chapter 159) and they received a
tour of the whole flight line. Then it was off to Pioneer Airport... From
Pioneer Airport there was a guided tour of the EAA Museum, by Cody Welch,
who knows that place and as well as aviation history, inside and out.
> --
After the museum, we gave the kids a ride through the warbird area and then
back to the homebuilders center. From there is was a very short walk over
to have lunch.
I had already snuck away twice to the FAA building to check on some nasty
weather brewing well to the west. Problem was that it was headed our way.
So, one more time I made a beeline to the FAA building for another briefing.
Although we had planned on giving the kids a couple hours of free time prior
to the airshow and then being one of the first planes out after, It wasn't
looking very promising.
We'd not only have to ride out some severe thunderstorms on the ground, but
they would be between us and home. So...I went ahead and filed IFR direct
MTW, LDM, 3BS and figured we could vote on it when I got back to the home
builders center.
The general concensus was that we "hit the road" and use the flight plan on
file.,even if it did mean missing the airshow.
So...after contacting the head of the ground crews, we pulled the plane back
out, called the tower and taxied out to the diagonal runway that runs
between 9/27 and 18/36
For some reason they couldn't find our flight plan for a departure
clearance.
So we sat, and sat, and sat on tht new black runway in 95 degree heat and
very little wind, watching the CH and Oil temps creap up.
I had two concerns. One, or course was overheating as the wind had switche
from out of the West to SW and it was stong enough that we could hear the
prop cavatating. The other worry was that the wind would be out of the
south at 35 when the front went through. That is a 90 degree cross wind for
takeoff.
Finally the engine started to run rough and I called the tower for
permission to turn into the wind as the engine was over heating. They
immediately cleared us to hold short for 72 and said they unravel the flight
plan later.
Two planes landed and we were cleared for departure (as filed...they'd wing
it until it came through the system).
Now, remember it's 95 in the shade and windy. It was also humid and we were
loaded right to the limit for the temperature...figured it twice to be sure
we were under gross.
At any rate with the weight, temps and humidity the take off acelleration
was more than a little anemic. Love nice long runways<:-))
We were just shy of rotation speed when the wind abruptly went from about
quartering to a direct cross wind of 180.
I had the ailerons over and all the rudder I could get. All that input to
counteract the cross wind was adding so much drag we stopped acellerating.
To top it off the wind started kicking up to that 35 as forecast. The
airplane and I are only good for 25.
So...we started to skid. Too fast to stop, unable to acellerate, but close
enough to rotation to give it a shot.
We did an imitation of a soft field leap into ground effect and held it
there, just inches off the runway. The airplane slewed around about 45
degrees, but I managed to keep anything from touching the runway.
About this time I had the sensation that every eye on the North 40 was
turned in our direction
We traveled quite a ways in ground effect, but it eventually began to climb.
We were probaly close to a hundred feet as we passed over the expressway off
the west end of the field.
We were vectored around to the north of the field for a circling climb while
they waited for the flight plan to come through. It turned up before we had
completed the first 360. (in the clouds).
Both the co-pilot (who is an ATP) and I figured that once in the clouds we'd
get some relief from the heat. Not a chance. It was still near 90 as we
climbed through 4000.
We were cleared to 7000 with the understanding that at our ROC we'd be out
to lake Michigan by the time we reached that altitude.
After finally reaching 7000 we discovered that it was still 84 degrees, but
we were breaking out into sunlight and getting rid of a lot of humidity.
Shortly after starting out over the lake we were asked if we'd like to climb
up to 8000 (headed East) to clear a south bound Bonanza. Would we? Man,
would we ever, it might be a tad cooler. That extra 1000 feet dropped the
temp to about 72 degrees. Certainly not a day for counting on a standard
lapse rate.
Out in the clear on top, we could see a couple of monster cumulis that
appeared to be almost on top of Whitman field. (they were and with lots of
lightening and very strong winds.). From 8000 feet we were moving so fast
that we could have madde the East shore of Lake Michigan without the engine
running. It took less than 12 minutes to cross the lake which is 50 miles
across at that point.
Withe a true airspeed of near 190, that meant one whale of a tail wind.
The rest of the trip home was uneventful. Fast, but uneventful.
BTW: Several things to point out.
Had we started our departure just two minutes later the wind would have
already changed and I'd have declined the clearance. No way would I take off
in that on purpose. Two minutes earlier and it would have been an
uneventful takeoff.
Those storms were moving much faster than predicted.
We knew that with all that heat and moisture that the stage was set for some
very violent weather.
Several of the big twins and the Ford tri-moter had to switch to 18 in order
to get down.
Also, we were the last plane out of there. There were two twins waiting to
take off, but after watching our departure, they changed their minds.
As I recall, they had a couple of tail draggers break loose when those
storms went through.
Roger Halstead (K8RI) www.RogerHalstead.com
N833R World's Oldest Debonair? s# CD-2
> HighFlyer
> Highflight Aviation Services
Andrew Gideon
"Matthew P. Cummings" <cummings@tryit&paystingray.net> writes:
>
> Like the CFI's say, you do whatever it takes.
This is true. On the final landing of my checkride, I managed to
bounce on landing. I know (from lots of bounce experience {8^)
that this means a hard second hit. So I added a little power to
soften the blow. That second touch was actually reasonably smooth,
and we stayed down.
The DE actually complimented the recovery.
- Andrew
zjo...@powerserve.net
that card, but power can really help-out. You don't have to firewall it, and
it takes some experience to get just the right amount based on your
situation, but when you're in ground-effect adding power is very effective at
arresting a radid sink...
Zack ><>
CPSEL-IA
In article <m3u24or...@beethoven.longhands.org>, <d...@longhands.org>
writes:
>I was practice landings in a 152 today and on one of them was too slow at
the
>very end and wound up dropping the plane down onto the runway kind of hard.
>Not enough to cause any damage or anything, but still...too hard. I was
>wondering what people's recommendations were on what to do once in this
>situation (I know avoiding it is best!). If the wings aren't stalling yet
is
>it safe to pull back and flare even more? When this is happening I am
afraid
>making the situation worse by increasing the flare.
>
>--thanks, dan.
>
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