Basic Radio procedures Class D
P. Jantson
>I'll answer your questions based on my
>personal experience.
Thanks....more Q's
>I would abreviate your above statement to:
>
>"Podunk Tower, Cessna 444EK, 10 west, two thousand five
>hundred, landing with Uniform."
Do you use this as initial callup, or do you use something
to get his attention first?
Is 10 miles a suitable distance?
>If they report traffic, and you don't immediately see it,
>say "looking". Once you see it, tell the tower "traffic
>in sight" or "contact".
Am I correct thinking he's probably only going to report
traffic in his airspace, and that at 10 miles I'm not likely
to get a report? Is it wrong to acknowledge a traffic
report with "looking", then just keep looking, say nothing
and ultimately ignore the traffic issue, or does a report of
traffic impose any obligation to communicate the fact that
it's not in sight after some time period?
>The usual place to report downwind is mid-field.
So I just fly to the reporting point, keep my eyes open,
listen to tower freq to be aware of what's going on, fit
into any other traffic I see in the pattern conventionally,
then report as I arrive at the point?
>>Tower: "Cessna 4EK, cleared to land runway 27, contact
>>ground point niner"
>>
>>Me: "Cleared to land 27, ground point niner, 4EK"
>
>Yes, this is fine.
Now. I land, pull off the runway at first intersection, and
stop, or do I continue on while calling ground. (Clearly I
wouldn't cross runways, but can I make the call to ground
while rolling in my general direction?) I want to do a
couple of full stops so I say (comments welcome):
Me: "Podunk ground, Cessna 444EK clear of 27 intend two
additional full stop landings, ready to taxi for 27 with
Uniform"
I just landed with Uniform, but it's been 10 minutes I'd
listen to ATIS again, but I'd need to leave the freq. Does
ground care if I have current info, or can I leave this 'til
after runup? Is it OK to leave ground at the runup area to
listen to ATIS, or do I need to ask to leave the freq? I
used full call (Cessna 444EK) not "4EK" since this is a new
freq. Correct? Is "Podunk ground" necessary, or is
"Ground" sufficient (who else can hear me?)
Ground: "4EK, Information Victor is now current, taxi via
golf to Runway 27"
Me: "27 via golf, 4EK"
OK, so now I know there's new ATIS, I need to listen to it,
but where? Shoot from hip and guess - I'll taxi to runup
and say:
Me: "Podunk ground, 4EK request frequency change to monitor
ATIS"
Ground: "4EK frequency change approved, contact tower ... "
I don't really know what he'll say, probably to either come
back to him or go direct to tower? Can you fill in
something here?
Me: "Podunk tower Cessna 444EK ready for take-off, runway
27, remaining in the pattern two full stop landings".
(Another freq change so back to the full Cessna 444EK?)
Tower: "4EK, taxi into position and hold, runway 27"
(Is he more likely to say something like Tower: "4EK, Podunk
tower, taxi into position and hold", i.e does he always
identify his transmission like I do, and is the runway
clearly identified)
Me: "27, position and hold, 4EK".
Tower: "4EK, turn left, enter downwind for runway 27, report
midfield. Cleared for take-off runway 27".
Me: "left turn for downwind 27, report midfield, cleared for
take-off, 4EK"
Is this better:
Me: "left turn for 27, report midfield, 4EK" then takeoff?
P. Jantson
>I'd say: "Cessna 444EK is a 150, 10 west, 2 thousand five hundred
>landing with Uniform."
So you would tell him you're a 150 to let him have some idea
of your performance.
>>traffic
>Depends on where they are, and how nervous I feel. If it is pretty
>close, I'll let him know I don't see it, if it is miles away, going
>another direction, I won't.
So you'd tell him "looking", but if you're comfortable,
that's the end of it even if you never see it.
>You are probably correct to use the tower name, but since you are on a
>frequency you have already been on, and have verified that you are
>talking to right people already, I'd leave that off, especially if it
>is busy. I would make the announcement at downwind entry.
Since they're using 2 mile bases, etc. would you announce
about a mile out on a 45 from midfield (runway is >8000')
and say something like:
Later me: "4EK entering left downwind for 27" or just
"4EK downwind for 27"
>During rollout, they will contact you with:
>
>Tower: "Cessna 4EK, left turn onto Bravo, ground point niner."
>
>Me: "Left on Bravo, point niner, 4EK"
Thanks
>Switch over once clear. Follow instructions. Bake at 350 for 45
>minutes...oh no...that's not it.
You forgot to mix thoroughly and gently fold in the egg
whites :-)
>Departure.
>
>Assuming you are at XYZ FBO.
>
>Get ATIS. (Lima)
>
>Contact Ground.
>
>Me: "Podunk Ground, Cessna 4EK at XYZ, VFR departure to the North,
>ready to taxi with Lima."
Abbreviated numbers, not "Cessna 444EK" on first call?
>Me: "Cessna 4EK switching to tower."
>
>They may double click, they may say something, they may not.
>(Not required, but not a bad idea.)
So you'd tell them you're switching, but then just do it
regardless of any response.
>You had it
>fine...you wouldn't have had a problem with what you had written down.
Thanks
Ron Natalie
>
> In a busy Class C or B, when you initially contact ground, you
> sometimes call to get a clearance out, at which point they will tell
> you what to squawk, what frequency to contact after departure,
> etc...but is very similar.
>
In a busy Class B you will be told to go to clearance delivery
and actually get one.
27K: Dulles Clearance Navion 5327K
CLC: Navion 5327K Go Ahead
27K: 27K's a Navion (N-A-V-I/A) VFR 3,000 to Ocean City (OXB)
Information Charlie.
CLC: 27K Kilo clearance on request.
slight delay while he types all that into the computer. Note
that with odd identifiers (Navions, used to be worse N145 and
airports you usually have to spell it out for them, and perhaps
even give them a heading).
CLC: Navion 5327K is cleared into the Class B airspace via
Fly Runway Heading at or below 1,500 Expect 3000 in ten
minutes, departure frequency 125.05, squawk 0223.
27K: Fly Runway Heading, 1500, 125.05. 0223, 27Kilo
CLC: Readback correct
27K: Dulles Ground, Navion 5327K, Hawthorne (name of the FBO
we're parked at), TAXI
GND: Navion 5327K, taxi to runway 1L via zulu, hold short of Alpha.
27K: 1L via zulu, hold short of alpha, 27K.
Tim Cailloux
>
> >"Podunk Tower, Cessna 444EK, 10 west, two thousand five
> >hundred, landing with Uniform."
>
> Do you use this as initial callup, or do you use something
> to get his attention first?
>
> Is 10 miles a suitable distance?
>
About 5 nm is good - many control towers in Class D airspace
use the good 'ol Mark I eyeball so any further and they'll
have a hard time making you out. Take a look at the sectional
or terminal chart near the airport in the D airspace. There may
be little flags in prominent geographical areas (such as tank
farms, islands, small towns) that are used for calling the tower
initially. If you tell them you are over one of these "call-up
points" then you'll know where you are and they'll know where to
look for you (landing light is on, right?). At this point it
is probably wise to say that you'll be in the pattern for
T&G's, full stop, full stop taxi back, etc.
> Am I correct thinking he's probably only going to report
> traffic in his airspace, and that at 10 miles I'm not likely
> to get a report? Is it wrong to acknowledge a traffic
> report with "looking", then just keep looking, say nothing
> and ultimately ignore the traffic issue, or does a report of
> traffic impose any obligation to communicate the fact that
> it's not in sight after some time period?
He'll give you any and every traffic advisory he things you can
use and his workload will permit. If there are 75 aircraft
in trail for final to one runway and they're all misbehaving
don't expect too much help in spotting traffic. If his workload
is less, then you can expect more assistance in traffic spotting.
But, as in all circumstances, see and avoid is best. After he
points out the traffic, say that you are looking for it. If you
start to get an uncomfortable feeling (I'm looking where he said
and I don't see any traffic) go ahead and give another call saying
that you still don't see the traffic. There are no hard and fast
guidelines. Use your best judgement. Also mentioning that your
a student pilot works wonders in getting friendly service.
> So I just fly to the reporting point, keep my eyes open,
> listen to tower freq to be aware of what's going on, fit
> into any other traffic I see in the pattern conventionally,
> then report as I arrive at the point?
That's pretty much it. Just like any uncontrolled field,
except there's someone on the ground to talk to. He'll say
"report left downwind to 27" and when you're in the downwind
to 27, go ahead and give a call. "4EK is left downwind for 27"
He's expecting something like that and when he hears it you'll
probably hear something like "cleared to land runway 27". If
you're really special you may get something like "make a right
360 degree turn for spacing" at which point you would acknowledge
that message. The tower wants to hear back what he told you,
in some form or another, just to make sure that what will happen
up in the air is what he's worked out will happen in his mind.
> Now. I land, pull off the runway at first intersection, and
> stop, or do I continue on while calling ground. (Clearly I
> wouldn't cross runways, but can I make the call to ground
> while rolling in my general direction?) I want to do a
> couple of full stops so I say (comments welcome):
Taxi to the other side of the hold short line and stop. Do your
post-landing checklist and then give a call. If you just landed,
ground probably won't care that you have the current ATIS but it
won't kill to say it. You don't want to do any sort of movement
on the other side of that line until ground tells you to do
something.
> I just landed with Uniform, but it's been 10 minutes I'd
> listen to ATIS again, but I'd need to leave the freq. Does
> ground care if I have current info, or can I leave this 'til
> after runup? Is it OK to leave ground at the runup area to
> listen to ATIS, or do I need to ask to leave the freq? I
> used full call (Cessna 444EK) not "4EK" since this is a new
> freq. Correct? Is "Podunk ground" necessary, or is
> "Ground" sufficient (who else can hear me?)
Unless you really want to, you don't need to listen to the ATIS.
The tower will make an anouncement on all frequencies in their
control (ground, tower, whatever) - something along the lines of:
"Attention all aircraft, Information Victor now current on the
ATIS, altimeter 29.92". So if you don't hear that, ATIS hasn't
changed. You probably don't want to leave any frequency without
telling the person you're talking to. As far as what you call
yourself, 4EK works. Ground knows to expect you. And you just
have to call 'em "ground" - anything more and they may think
they're special. You don't want ATC to have a huge ego, do you?
> OK, so now I know there's new ATIS, I need to listen to it,
> but where? Shoot from hip and guess - I'll taxi to runup
> and say:
AH, so now there is a new ATIS. If this happens, just flip
over in the runup area as you're doing your checks and listen
in. You don't need to tell someone (yes, this contradicts
what I said earlier) but, again, this is just a use of judgement.
If you're opening a flight plan with FSS and you're sitting
in the runup area, you may want to tell someone. If you're
just pulling the latest ATIS, it's not that big a deal. About
the only thing that will ever change is the altimeter. If
the sky is clear, it's clear - you don't need ATIS for that.
And the wind on the ATIS isn't what you're experiencing right now.
Wind always changes.
> Ground: "4EK frequency change approved, contact tower ... "
> I don't really know what he'll say, probably to either come
> back to him or go direct to tower? Can you fill in
> something here?
Ground will probably tell you: "Taxi runway 27 and hold short."
This means that you are cleared all the way to the hold short
line. At that point, ground is done with you. You only
need to talk to the tower.
> Me: "Podunk tower Cessna 444EK ready for take-off, runway
> 27, remaining in the pattern two full stop landings".
>
> (Another freq change so back to the full Cessna 444EK?)
Don't need to. He knows you already. But if you want to, go
right on ahead.
> Tower: "4EK, taxi into position and hold, runway 27"
Expect something like this. He'll just tell you what to do
and where to do it.
> Me: "27, position and hold, 4EK".
At this point it may be worth it to say:
"Cessna 444EK, position and hold, runway 27." Why? Not
for him. Not for you. For the tapes that are recording the
conversation. If he forgets your in position and clears someone
to land, and they go around, and he gets hopping mad at you, you
can say "I was just following your instructions. Check the tapes."
> Tower: "4EK, turn left, enter downwind for runway 27, report
> midfield. Cleared for take-off runway 27".
>
> Me: "left turn for downwind 27, report midfield, cleared for
> take-off, 4EK"
>
> Is this better:
> Me: "left turn for 27, report midfield, 4EK" then takeoff?
Whatever you want. The more it sounds like his, the better. Less
of a legal grey area. Both things mean the same, do you want
to talk more or not?
Despite the fact that there is a big, bad control tower, it's fairly
easy to operate in a class D.
tim
Dane Spearing
>>"Podunk Tower, Cessna 444EK, 10 west, two thousand five
>>hundred, landing with Uniform."
>
>Do you use this as initial callup, or do you use something
>to get his attention first?
Depends on how busy it is. If it's really busy, I just
call up with "Podunk Tower, Cessna 444EK" first and wait
until the tower acknowledges me. If it's pretty quiet
on the radio, I'll go with the whole enchalada right off
the bat.
>Am I correct thinking he's probably only going to report
>traffic in his airspace, and that at 10 miles I'm not likely
>to get a report? Is it wrong to acknowledge a traffic
>report with "looking", then just keep looking, say nothing
>and ultimately ignore the traffic issue, or does a report of
>traffic impose any obligation to communicate the fact that
>it's not in sight after some time period?
The short answer is "it depends". If you are told there is
traffic, report "looking" and look for it. If you haven't
found it for a period of time, and are nervous about where it
might be, a call to the tower certainly couldn't hurt. Something
like the following couldn't hurt:
"Tower, Cessna 444EK still doesn't have the traffic in sight."
Obviously, once you do have the traffic in sight, let the
tower know with a brief message:
"Tower, Cessna 444EK has the traffic in sight." or
"Tower, Cessna 444EK contact on the traffic"
>>The usual place to report downwind is mid-field.
>
>So I just fly to the reporting point, keep my eyes open,
>listen to tower freq to be aware of what's going on, fit
>into any other traffic I see in the pattern conventionally,
>then report as I arrive at the point?
Well, you do what ATC tells you to do. If the tower says
to report downwind for a particular runway, then yes, you
fit yourself nicely into the traffic pattern and report downwind.
>Now. I land, pull off the runway at first intersection, and
>stop, or do I continue on while calling ground. (Clearly I
>wouldn't cross runways, but can I make the call to ground
>while rolling in my general direction?) I want to do a
>couple of full stops so I say (comments welcome):
Stop. The hold short line works both ways (I found this
out the hard way). Stop at the hold short line, and let
ground know where you want to taxi.
>Me: "Podunk ground, Cessna 444EK clear of 27 intend two
>additional full stop landings, ready to taxi for 27 with
>Uniform"
I don't think ground is going to care how many full stop
landings you want to do. For each one, just let them know
you want to taxi for takeoff again.
>I just landed with Uniform, but it's been 10 minutes I'd
>listen to ATIS again, but I'd need to leave the freq. Does
>ground care if I have current info, or can I leave this 'til
>after runup? Is it OK to leave ground at the runup area to
>listen to ATIS, or do I need to ask to leave the freq? I
>used full call (Cessna 444EK) not "4EK" since this is a new
>freq. Correct? Is "Podunk ground" necessary, or is
>"Ground" sufficient (who else can hear me?)
You should stay with ground until you're at the hold short line
and ready for departure. If you're in the runup area and not
moving, switching to ATIS to get the most recent info is okay.
Just switch back to ground before moving again.
>OK, so now I know there's new ATIS, I need to listen to it,
>but where? Shoot from hip and guess - I'll taxi to runup
>and say:
Usually, if there is new ATIS, they will state the new altimeter
setting when the announce it.
>Me: "Podunk ground, 4EK request frequency change to monitor
>ATIS"
>Ground: "4EK frequency change approved, contact tower ... "
>I don't really know what he'll say, probably to either come
>back to him or go direct to tower? Can you fill in
>something here?
Again, if you're in the runup area and not moving, just switch
to ATIS, listen to it, and go back to ground when you're done.
>(Is he more likely to say something like Tower: "4EK, Podunk
>tower, taxi into position and hold", i.e does he always
>identify his transmission like I do, and is the runway
>clearly identified)
Usually, yes, they will identify who they are. But not always.
>Me: "left turn for downwind 27, report midfield, cleared for
>take-off, 4EK"
>
>Is this better:
>Me: "left turn for 27, report midfield, 4EK" then takeoff?
In general, the shorter the message, the better, so long as no
meaning is lost, and it is still understandable.
Now, according to the FAR's, the only instructions that a VFR
pilot is *required* to read back are those that involve a clearance
of some kind (where they stay something like cleared to land, cleared
for take off, etc), LAHSO (land and hold short operations), and when
you're given a squak code. However, in practice, it is always good
to briefly read back or summarize what you think ATC has told you
to make sure you got it right.
-- Dane
Ron Natalie
>
> "Tower, Cessna 444EK has the traffic in sight." or
> "Tower, Cessna 444EK contact on the traffic"
The phrases you are looking for are
"TRAFFIC IN SIGHT" or "NEGATIVE CONTACT"
depending on whether you see it or not.
P. Jantson
operations at Class D/C/B airports.
Would some of you experienced pilots look over the stuff
below and comment? I'd like to shorten things, consider
alternatives, get a feel for what might actually be said to
me and appropriate responses. If you'd give me something
the tower might say, and a response, I'd really apprreciate
it, even if it's just a simple thing. Insert traffic
warnings, tell me where you'd be when reporting initially,
etc. Basically, I'd like to "listen" to tower freq here,
then be able to ask questions, or have others, with a more
experienced ear be able to tell me what's good technique.
I'd really like people to chain (to me and other responses)
and give quotes that one might hear for a T/O and flight to
another class D or class C (give me a transponder), with
just short realistic practical posts that one might hear.
Let's set up a scenario of an approach from the west to a
Class D, landing Rwy 27, medium traffic of students in the
pattern, some potentially conflicting traffic in my area
that I don't see, parachute activity at a nearby airport
that's reported on ATIS, I've got no transponder.
I've got the tower and ATIS freq written down, get ATIS
Uniform, monitor tower and then say:
Me: "Podunk Tower, Cessna 444EK"
Tower: "Cessna 444EK, Podunk Tower, go ahead"
Me: "Cessna 444EK, is a Cessna 150 slant X-Ray, 10 miles
west at two thousand five hundred feet landing with
Uniform."
Would you add the "slant X-ray" to advise no transponder?
Tower: "Cessna 4EK, report left downwind runway 27.
Altimeter 29.97. "
Me: "Left downwind for 27, 29.97, 4EK"
Would he tell me altimeter setting if it's on ATIS? Insert
some traffic advisories here. Do you normally advise after
30 seonds if you don't see the traffic?
Later me: "Podunk Tower, Cessna 4EK left downwind for 27"
Do I do this abeam the numbers at downwind entry?
Tower: "Cessna 4EK, cleared to land runway 27, contact
ground point niner"
Me: Proper acknowledgement? "Cleared to land 27, ground
point niner, 4EK"
I land
Take off procedures?
Ron Natalie
>
>
> Me: "Cessna 444EK, is a Cessna 150 slant X-Ray, 10 miles
> west at two thousand five hundred feet landing with
> Uniform."
>
> Would you add the "slant X-ray" to advise no transponder?
Nope. Most class D towers wouldn't know if you had one or
not. Even those with brite tend not to use it much (there
are some exceptions). If he gives you a squawk code or
asks you to ident, then I'd tell him I didn't have one.
Dane Spearing
Well, I'm a very low time (100 hr) pilot, but I do fly in
and out of SAF, which is a Class D facility, on a fairly
regular basis. So, I'll answer your questions based on my
personal experience.
P. Jantson, PJan...@ustinallt.com writes:
<snip>
>I've got the tower and ATIS freq written down, get ATIS
>Uniform, monitor tower and then say:
>
>Me: "Podunk Tower, Cessna 444EK"
>
>Tower: "Cessna 444EK, Podunk Tower, go ahead"
>
>Me: "Cessna 444EK, is a Cessna 150 slant X-Ray, 10 miles
>west at two thousand five hundred feet landing with
>Uniform."
>
>Would you add the "slant X-ray" to advise no transponder?
It depends on whether or not the facility uses radar.
However, in general, no separation is provided in Class D,
so you don't need to mention your transponder status.
I would abreviate your above statement to:
"Podunk Tower, Cessna 444EK, 10 west, two thousand five
hundred, landing with Uniform."
>Tower: "Cessna 4EK, report left downwind runway 27.
>Altimeter 29.97. "
>
>Me: "Left downwind for 27, 29.97, 4EK"
>
>Would he tell me altimeter setting if it's on ATIS? Insert
>some traffic advisories here. Do you normally advise after
>30 seonds if you don't see the traffic?
They don't usually repeat what's on ATIS if you say that you
have the information. However, if they do, it is always
wise to give a read back to make sure you understood
correctly.
If they report traffic, and you don't immediately see it,
say "looking". Once you see it, tell the tower "traffic
in sight" or "contact".
>Later me: "Podunk Tower, Cessna 4EK left downwind for 27"
>
>Do I do this abeam the numbers at downwind entry?
The usual place to report downwind is mid-field.
>Tower: "Cessna 4EK, cleared to land runway 27, contact
>ground point niner"
>
>Me: Proper acknowledgement? "Cleared to land 27, ground
>point niner, 4EK"
Yes, this is fine.
>Take off procedures?
This is fairly straightforward. The general sequence is
(1) contact ground, let them know where you are, where you want
to go, and that you're ready for taxi for takeoff with the information.
(2) Taxi to the run-up area, do your run-up, then taxi to the hold
short line (or where instructed by ground) and call up the
tower to let them know your ready for take off.
e.g. -
You: "Podunk Ground, Cessna 777KE at Signature, taxi for take-off
with Tango, departing to the NE".
Ground: "Cessna 777KE, taxi to runway 20 via taxiway alpha."
You: "Ground, 20 via alpha, 7KE"
Then do your run up and taxi to the hold short line and contact tower:
You: "Podunk Tower, Cessna 777KE, holding short 20, ready for take off
with Tango".
Tower: "Cessna 777KE, cleared for take off, 20".
You: "Podunk Tower, cleared for take off, 20. 7KE".
-- Dane, KLAM
Wood
wrote:
>Me: "Podunk Tower, Cessna 444EK"
>
>Tower: "Cessna 444EK, Podunk Tower, go ahead"
>
>Me: "Cessna 444EK, is a Cessna 150 slant X-Ray, 10 miles
>west at two thousand five hundred feet landing with
>Uniform."
>
>Would you add the "slant X-ray" to advise no transponder?
I'd say: "Cessna 444EK is a 150, 10 west, 2 thousand five hundred
landing with Uniform."
You don't want to be cryptic, but he knows your distance is going to
be in miles, and your altitude in ft...I leave off the slant unless it
is an initial contact for Flight Following.
>Tower: "Cessna 4EK, report left downwind runway 27.
>Altimeter 29.97. "
>
>Me: "Left downwind for 27, 29.97, 4EK"
Me: "left downwind 27, 4EK"
He probably won't give you the altimeter if you have the ATIS, and you
don't need to repeat it anyway.
> Insert
>some traffic advisories here. Do you normally advise after
>30 seonds if you don't see the traffic?
Depends on where they are, and how nervous I feel. If it is pretty
close, I'll let him know I don't see it, if it is miles away, going
another direction, I won't.
>Later me: "Podunk Tower, Cessna 4EK left downwind for 27"
>
>Do I do this abeam the numbers at downwind entry?
Me: "Cessna 4EK left downwind 27."
You are probably correct to use the tower name, but since you are on a
frequency you have already been on, and have verified that you are
talking to right people already, I'd leave that off, especially if it
is busy. I would make the announcement at downwind entry.
>Tower: "Cessna 4EK, cleared to land runway 27, contact
>ground point niner"
>
>Me: Proper acknowledgement? "Cleared to land 27, ground
>point niner, 4EK"
They won't tell you to contact ground (at least around here) until you
have landed. They want you on frequency until you are off the active
runway...you are their problem until you are clear, then you contact
ground.
Tower: "Cessna 4EK, clear to land 27."
Me: "Clear to land, 4EK."
>I land
During rollout, they will contact you with:
Tower: "Cessna 4EK, left turn onto Bravo, ground point niner."
Me: "Left on Bravo, point niner, 4EK"
Switch over once clear. Follow instructions. Bake at 350 for 45
minutes...oh no...that's not it.
Departure.
Assuming you are at XYZ FBO.
Get ATIS. (Lima)
Contact Ground.
Me: "Podunk Ground, Cessna 4EK at XYZ, VFR departure to the North,
ready to taxi with Lima."
Ground: "Cessna 4EK, Taxi 27."
Me: "Taxi 27, 4EK"
Depending on where you are, they might want to know where you are
going so they can start figuring out where to send you, and they might
give you a specific taxiway routing to follow...but it will be some
variation on this.
Taxi, taxi, taxi...get to 27.
Do runup, get ready to go, turn on your lights, etc...
Me: "Cessna 4EK switching to tower."
They may double click, they may say something, they may not.
(Not required, but not a bad idea.)
Me: "Podunk Tower, Cessna 4EK at 27, ready for departure to the
North."
Tower: "Cessna 4EK, cleared for departure 27, right turnout
approved."
(They might also say, position and hold (move onto runway, but don't
go anywhere yet), hold (self explanatory), or something else.
Basically, follow their instructions. If you don't understand what
they said or what they mean, ASK them! Around an active runway is not
the time to make a guess at what he meant. Never ever hurts to ask
for clarification.
Me: "Cleared for departure 27, right turnout, 4EK."
I pull out and go. (I mean onto the runway all you dirty minded
folks.) I follow the departure instructions and the airport
procedures for noise abatement, etc. For a class D, you probably
won't hear from Tower again. In C or B, you will get switched to
departure, and then on down the line for flight following, or
terminated sometime soon.
In a busy Class C or B, when you initially contact ground, you
sometimes call to get a clearance out, at which point they will tell
you what to squawk, what frequency to contact after departure,
etc...but is very similar.
I'm sure I missed a few things, but these are the basics. You had it
fine...you wouldn't have had a problem with what you had written down.
BDWood
Wood
wrote:
>wo...@home.com (Wood) wrote:
>
>>I'd say: "Cessna 444EK is a 150, 10 west, 2 thousand five hundred
>>landing with Uniform."
>
>So you would tell him you're a 150 to let him have some idea
>of your performance.
Your performance, but more importantly what kind of plane profile to
look for. High wing...small, etc...
>>>traffic
>>Depends on where they are, and how nervous I feel. If it is pretty
>>close, I'll let him know I don't see it, if it is miles away, going
>>another direction, I won't.
>
>So you'd tell him "looking", but if you're comfortable,
>that's the end of it even if you never see it.
Yes. I'll generally say, "4EK looking for traffic." I'll look...if
he's around me or in the pattern or I'm supposed to follow him or
whatever...within 20 sec's or so I'll call with, "4EK negative
contact."
>>You are probably correct to use the tower name, but since you are on a
>>frequency you have already been on, and have verified that you are
>>talking to right people already, I'd leave that off, especially if it
>>is busy. I would make the announcement at downwind entry.
>
>Since they're using 2 mile bases, etc. would you announce
>about a mile out on a 45 from midfield (runway is >8000')
>and say something like:
>
>Later me: "4EK entering left downwind for 27" or just
>"4EK downwind for 27"
either is just fine...you'll hear all kinds of stuff once you are
there. You are already ahead of the game...
>>Departure.
>>
>>Assuming you are at XYZ FBO.
>>
>>Get ATIS. (Lima)
>>
>>Contact Ground.
>>
>>Me: "Podunk Ground, Cessna 4EK at XYZ, VFR departure to the North,
>>ready to taxi with Lima."
>
>Abbreviated numbers, not "Cessna 444EK" on first call?
You are right...full call sign.
>
>>Me: "Cessna 4EK switching to tower."
>>
>>They may double click, they may say something, they may not.
>>(Not required, but not a bad idea.)
>
>So you'd tell them you're switching, but then just do it
>regardless of any response.
Yes. I'd give them a sec, as they will usually acknowledge somehow.
But then I'd just switch over, even with no response from ground.
Raven
Tim Cailloux wrote:
>
> P. Jantson wrote:
> >
> > >"Podunk Tower, Cessna 444EK, 10 west, two thousand five
> > >hundred, landing with Uniform."
> >
> > Do you use this as initial callup, or do you use something
> > to get his attention first?
> >
> > Is 10 miles a suitable distance?
> >
>
> About 5 nm is good - many control towers in Class D airspace
> use the good 'ol Mark I eyeball so any further and they'll
> have a hard time making you out.
I prefer the 10 mile call up. Even if the tower can't see you, there
may well be other traffic in your area that would appreciate hearing
from you. It's also nice to give the tower more than 30 seconds warning
you're entering their airspace. Don't worry about whether the tower can
see you or not. Due to the hills around my home airport the tower
sometimes can't see you until you're on short final. (For that matter,
unless you're too high, you can't see the airport either.)
-- Raven
(Not a CFI)
------------
Ravens are the only birds I know that fly just because they can.
Please help me avoid spammers by sending relevant replies to this newsgroup.
Raven
Dane Spearing wrote:
>
> P. Jantson, PJan...@ustinallt.com writes:
>
> >Now. I land, pull off the runway at first intersection, and
> >stop, or do I continue on while calling ground. (Clearly I
> >wouldn't cross runways, but can I make the call to ground
> >while rolling in my general direction?) I want to do a
> >couple of full stops so I say (comments welcome):
>
> Stop. The hold short line works both ways (I found this
> out the hard way). Stop at the hold short line, and let
> ground know where you want to taxi.
My understanding was that you should taxi clear of the active before
calling ground unless otherwise instructed. Until the entire aircraft
crosses the hold short line you're not clear of the active. Am I mistaken?
Roy Smith
> My understanding was that you should taxi clear of the active before
> calling ground unless otherwise instructed. Until the entire aircraft
> crosses the hold short line you're not clear of the active. Am I mistaken?
You are correct, but this is probably one of the most violated rules I see
around the airport every day. The spam cans seems to be better behaved in
this respect than the bizjets or even the airlines. Based on what I hear
and see, sometimes I wonder if "clear of the active" really means "the
nose of the airplane is pointing in the general direction of the turnoff".
--
Roy Smith <r...@popmail.med.nyu.edu>
New York University School of Medicine
Ron Natalie
>
>
> My understanding was that you should taxi clear of the active before
> calling ground unless otherwise instructed. Until the entire aircraft
> crosses the hold short line you're not clear of the active. Am I mistaken?
You are correct, you should always clear the runway at the
first practical taxiway and clear the hold short line. The
runway isn't clear until you are behind it.
This is why the thing has this pattern:
- - - - - -
- - - - - -
-----------
-----------
The dotted side means pass, the solid side means don't pass.
Here's the appropriate sections from the AIM.
2-3-5. HOLDING POSITION MARKINGS
a. Runway Holding Position Markings - For runways these markings
indicate where an aircraft is supposed to stop. They consist of four
yellow lines two solid and two dashed, spaced six inches apart and
extending across the width of the taxiway or runway. The solid lines are
always on the side where the aircraft is to hold. There are three
locations where runway holding position markings are encountered.
1. Runway Holding Position Markings on Taxiways - These markings
identify the locations on a taxiway where an aircraft is supposed to
stop when it does not have clearance to proceed onto the runway. The
runway holding position markings are shown in Figure 2-3-13. When
instructed by ATC "Hold short of (runway "xx")" the pilot should stop so
no part of the aircraft extends beyond the holding position marking.
When approaching the holding position marking, a pilot should not cross
the marking without ATC clearance at a controlled airport or without
making sure of adequate separation from other aircraft at uncontrolled
airports. An aircraft exiting a runway is not clear of the runway until
all parts of the aircraft have crossed the applicable holding position
marking.
EXITING THE RUNWAY AFTER LANDING
The following procedures should be followed after landing and
reaching taxi speed.
a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on
a taxiway as instructed by ATC. At airports with an operating control
tower, pilots should not stop or reverse on the runway without first
obtaining ATC approval.
b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. In the
absence of ATC instructions the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the
landing runway even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or
cross another taxiway, runway, or ramp area. This does not authorize an
aircraft to cross a subsequent taxiway/runway/ramp after clearing the
landing runway.
Joe Emenaker
P. Jantson <PJan...@ustinallt.com> wrote:
> So you would tell him you're a 150 to let him have some idea
> of your performance.
What I've found is much more common is to just specify if you're a twin. I
don't think I've ever heard anyone contact tower stating their exact model
(unless asked by ATC). However, I always hear stuff like "Podunk tower, twin
cessna 4238J .... "
- Joe
Joe Emenaker
[ snip ]
> The short answer is "it depends". If you are told there is
> traffic, report "looking" and look for it. If you haven't
> found it for a period of time, and are nervous about where it
> might be, a call to the tower certainly couldn't hurt.
>
> "Tower, Cessna 444EK still doesn't have the traffic in sight."
Or, "Tower, Cessna 44EK. Has that Baron landed yet?"
> Obviously, once you do have the traffic in sight, let the
> tower know with a brief message:
>
> "Tower, Cessna 444EK has the traffic in sight." or
> "Tower, Cessna 444EK contact on the traffic"
And throw in a "Talley Ho" in there if you're bored. :)
> >>The usual place to report downwind is mid-field.
The ATC guy I talked to said that they first look straight out. So, to him
"downwind" means "abeam the tower"... which is, usually, mid-field, but not
always.
> Stop. The hold short line works both ways (I found this
> out the hard way). Stop at the hold short line, and let
> ground know where you want to taxi.
Also notice that the hold-short has a solid side and a dashed side. When
pulling off, if the dashed side is toward you, cross it before stopping.
> I don't think ground is going to care how many full stop
> landings you want to do. For each one, just let them know
> you want to taxi for takeoff again.
Right. I just say "... would like to go back around for takeoff".
> >Is this better:
> >Me: "left turn for 27, report midfield, 4EK" then takeoff?
I'll usually say "Report left downwind, 27, 4EK".
- Joe
Joe Emenaker
> Dane Spearing <da...@lanl.gov> wrote:
>
> >"Podunk Tower, Cessna 444EK, 10 west, two thousand five
> >hundred, landing with Uniform."
>
> Do you use this as initial callup, or do you use something
> to get his attention first?
Personally, I use something like this as the initial. The only time I do an
"attention getter" is when asking for flight-following from a center.
> Is 10 miles a suitable distance?
You have to have radio contact before entering a class-D. The usual radius
of a class-D is 4nm. I typically call in at about 5 or 6. Also, I report my
position with a landmark (like "abeam the landfill", "crossing over the
lake", "over Mayberry") instead of distance/direction.
- Joe
Joe Emenaker
P. Jantson <PJan...@ustinallt.com> wrote:
> I'm a student pilot, just solo and I'd like to prepare for
> operations at Class D/C/B airports.
Never done a B (although I plan to fly through the LAX VFR corridor in about
a month). C and D are pretty different. REALLY different, actually.
Here's how I do a class-D:
-------------------------------------------
(About 5 or 6 nm out after getting ATIS "echo")
Me: San Luis tower, Cessna 5542H is inbound from Pismo Beach with echo.
Tower: Cessna 5542H, San Luis Tower. Make straight in approach, report
abeam the landfill. Traffic is a Citabria on 3 mile final.
Me: Looking for traffic, report at landfill, 42H.
(abeam the landfill)
Me: 42H is abeam the landfill.
Tower: Cessna 42H, you're number two for landing after the Citabria on 1
mile final.
Me: Number two, still looking for him... 42H.
(Notice, at this point, that I'm number two... but not cleared to land. I
won't be *cleared* until one of two things happens: 1) I report that I have
the aircraft before me in the sequence in sight, or 2) that aircraft lands
and the controller concludes that he's not a factor).
Me: 42H has the traffic.
Tower: Cessna 42H, follow that aircraft to runway 29, cleared to land.
Me: Cleared to land, 42H.
(upon touchdown)
Tower: Cessna 42H, turn off next taxiway and contact ground point-six, good
day. (or, he can also say "stay with me" or "remain this frequency" if he's
doing ground and air at that time. Sometimes, if it's pretty slow, he'll
just say "turn off on taxiway foxtrot and continue to parking").
Me: 42H
(switch to 121.6)
Me: San Luis Ground, Cessna 5542H is at taxiway charlie to go to Air San
Luis.
Ground: Cessna 5542H, San Luis Ground, taxi to Air San Luis
Me: 42H.
----------- Departing -------------
Me: San Luis Ground, Cessna 5542H is at Air San Luis. Taxi for departure
with whiskey
Ground: Cessna 5542H, San Luis Ground. Taxi runway 29.
Me: Runway 29, 42H.
(after taxiing for a spell)
Ground: Cessna 42H, watch for a Mooney taxiing out from transient parking.
He'll be coming out in front of you on the left.
Me: Got him, 42H.
(in run-up area, after run-up)
Me: San Luis TOWER, Cessna 5542H is ready for takeoff. I'd like left closed
traffic, please.
Tower: Cessna 5542H, San Luis Tower. Upon release, left traffic approved.
Hold short of runway 29 for landing aircraft. (The "upon release" means
after he clears me for takeoff. I imagine it's so that I don't interpret
"left traffic approved" as clearance for all things leading up to that...
like takeoff).
Me: 42H is holding short.
(other plane lands)
Tower: Cessna 42H, position and hold runway 29.
Me: Position and hold, 42H.
(a gas truck or some other aircraft crosses the runway or the landing
aircraft finishes his rollout or whatever)
Tower: Cessna 42H, caution wake-turbulence from the Brazilia just landed...
cleared for takeoff.
Me: Cleared for takeoff, 42H.
------------------
Now, I'm kind of throwing the worst case-scenario at you. I've only had to
watch for a plane taxiing out in front of me once. Only once have I had to
hold short AND position and hold. 50% of the time, I'm cleared for takeoff
right from the runup area.
Class-C is an entirely different beast. Where D has Tower and Ground, C has
Approach, Tower, Ground, Clearance Delivery, and Departure. Class-D kinda
has them too, but they're melded into just the two... so you don't notice.
As I understand things:
Approach - Assigns you a transponder freq (if you don't have one already).
Guides you into the airspace and near the airport so as to avoid any
collisions. They also assign you which pattern for which runway. (Tower does
this in Class-D)
Tower - Puts you into the pattern with good separation, sequences you for
landing, and gets you landed.
Ground - Coordinates your movement along the taxiways and across the runways
so as to avoid hitting other aircraft.
Clearance delivery - Assigns you an outbound tansponder code and also
instructions on what altitude/course constraints you must follow. They also
assign you a runway. (Notice that ground control does this in Class-D)
Departure - Does the reverse of Approach. They control your flight out of
the airspace so as to avoid collisions. (Tower does this in Class-D)
When arriving, you talk to (in order): Approach, Tower, Ground.
When departing, you talk to (in order): Clearance delivery, Ground, Tower,
Departure. (Note that you don't actually start moving until after you've
talked to ground)
An arrival goes something like this:
--------------------------
(around 20 nm out)
Me: Santa Barbara Approach, Cessna 5542H is inbound over the San Marcus VOR
decending through 3 thousand, 3 hundred for landing. (At some class-C's,
there are multiple airports within the C. In that case, you should probably
state where you want to land... like "decending through 3,300 for landing at
Podunk municipal". If you omit it, I think they assume that you intend to
land at the primary... at least they did when I went into Fresno on my long
solo-xc)
Approach: Cessna 5542H, Stand by...
(they get a squawk code for me)
Approach: Cessna 5542H, squawk 2435 and continue to the coast and, staying
north of the freeway, follow it in... making right traffic for runway 27.
Santa Barbara altimeter is 29.88.
Me: 42H... Squawking 2435. Following the freeway for right traffic for 27.
(Notice that I didn't bother reading back the altimeter. I consider that to
be something they're telling me for my own good. If I want to fly into
terrain, that's my business. The stuff I *do* read back is stuff so that
they know that I know where the hell to go. So, I don't, as a rule, clog up
the airwaves reading back altimeter settings. Another reason I don't is
because the controllers, themselves, kinda throw it out to me as a "oh, by
the way" kinda thing, too. Whenever I get handed off to another center or
another approach/departure area).
(also at this point, Approach *might* notify me that they have radar
contact. I don't know because all of the times I've entered class-C, I was
handed off by a center, so I already had contact with them. Somehow, though,
I doubt that Approach would bother to tell me)
Approach: Cessna 5542H, contact tower 123.3.
Me: 123.3, 42H
Me: Santa Barbara Tower, Cessna 5542H is with you.
Tower: Cessna 5542H, continue making right traffic for runway 27, you're
number two after a Fokker DR-II on final.
Me: 42H has the traffic.
Tower: Cessna 42H, cleared to land after the Fokker.
Me: 42H.
(landing)
Tower: Cessna 42H, turn off any taxiway and contact ground point 4, good
day.
Me: Ground point four, 42H. Thanks.
Me: Santa Barbara Ground, Cessna 5542H is at taxiway charlie. We'd like to
go to the restaurant.
Ground: Cessna 5542H, continue on taxiway charlie and turn left on taxiway
alpha and continue on to the restaurant.
Me: 42H.
-------------- Departing -----------------
Me: Santa Barbara Clearance, Cessna 5542H would like to depart to San Luis
Obispo.
CD: Cessna 5542H, stand by....
(CD obtains a squawk for me.. while I have a pencil and paper handy)
CD: Cessna 5542H, depart runway 15-left. Upon liftoff, turn heading 230...
staying at or below 2 thousand five hundred. Expect higher in 4 minutes and
contact departure on 119.2, squawk 6534.
(Notice the "expect". This means that, if I'm unable to make contact with
departure after takeoff, I go ahead and just climb through 2,500 after four
minutes. I think they'll also say things like "expect own navigation" if
they've told me to take a certain heading... like in this case)
Me: 42H, Depart 15-left. Heading 230 at or below 2 thousand five hundred,
expecting higher in 4 minutes. Departure on 119.2, squawking 6534.
CD: Cessna 42H, readback is correct.
Me: Santa Barbara GROUND, Cessna 5542H is at the restaurant to taxi to 15L.
Ground: Cessna 5542H, take taxiway alpha to 15L.
Me: 15L, 42H
(at runup for 15L)
Me: Santa Barbara TOWER, Cessna 5542H is ready to go on 15L.
Tower: Cessna 5542H cleared for takeoff runway 15L.
Me: Cleared for takeoff, 42H
(after takeoff)
Tower: Cessna 5542H, contact departure 119.2.
Me: 119.2, 42H.
Me: Santa Barbara departure, Cessna 5542H is with you at 2 thousand feet.
Departure: Cessna 5542H, roger.
(later...)
Departure: Cessna 5542H, resume own navigation and contact L.A. Center
119.05. Good day.
Me: 119.05, 42H. Thanks.
Me: L.A. Center....... blah blah blah...
------------------------
So you can see that class-C is much more involved than class-D, especially,
departures. Now, I figure a bunch of the FAR-mongers are going to shoot
holes in how my radio technique isn't prefect, but I've heard a lot worse,
and I think it balances between verbosity and brevity.
Piece of cake, huh?
- Joe
39.1 hours
Checkride in 5 days!
P. Jantson
>Here's how I do a class-D:
<snip>
>Class-C is an entirely different beast.
Thanks Joe, I really appreciate this detailed post. I hope
that others with more experience will comment on yours, like
they did on mine, since all those comments and everything
else in this thread has been very helpful.
To the group at large: THANKS!
NAv8or
nice post, but I would amplify a few points (if you don't like my techniques,
that won't hurt my feelings).
Add to the class D entry:
If available, obtain ATIS/AWOS around 20 miles out, so you aren't rushed and
you know the appropriate airport info. Tune the Tower frequency after that,
so you can listen to what is arriving and departing, while you maintain see and
avoid. Realize that some position reports may be BS, so take reported
positions with a grain of salt, but look for the traffic.
I would further recommend you contact Tower a little sooner, say 10 miles out,
vs 5 or 6, as it will allow Tower more time to sequence you in if he has a busy
airport. If you have ATIS, check in with your altitude, position, and
information letter.
As far as the Class C portion of the post goes, this is mostly accurate, but
realize that
>Approach - Assigns you a transponder freq (if you don't have one already).
>Guides you into the airspace and near the airport so as to avoid any
>collisions. They also assign you which pattern for which runway. (Tower does
>this in Class-D)
>
is only partially accurate. Approach often as not will verify you have the
current field info, and may tell you to expect a given pattern for the runway,
but they may very well not. Also, they may tell you to expect one thing, only
to have Tower tell you to do another.
Example, from a recent flight (familiarization training, flying high work in
Area 1 west of NAS Pensacola, then flying T&G pattern at Mobile Downtown, then
leaving Downtown's pattern for a visual full stop at Mobile Regional, which is
in a Class C, and lies just 10 miles west northwest of Downtown):
(Handed off from Downtown Tower to Mobile Approach, after being issued a
squawk, heading, altitude, and frequency assignment by Tower)
Buc 477: Mobile Approach, Buc 477, One thousand five hundred, with X-ray.
Mobile Approach: Buc 477, radar contact. Maintain VFR at or below 1700, fly
heading 300, expect to fly southwest of the airport for a right downwind to 14.
Advise when field is in sight.
Buc 477: Approach, Buc 477, VFR at or below 1700, heading 300 for right
downwind 14, wilco.
Buc477: Approach, Buc477, field in sight.
Mobile Approach: Buc477, contact tower on 239.0.
Buc477: Buc477, switching 239.0, good day.
Buc477: Mobile Tower, Buc477, five miles south, 1700, field in sight for full
stop.
Mobile Tower: Buc477, maneuver east of the field for left downwind to Runway
18, cleared to land.
Buc477: Buc477, understand cleared to land 18 via left downwind.
Mobile Tower: affirmative, Buc477.
Buc477: Buc477, cleared to land 18, three down and locked.
(Military aircraft are required to report status of landing gear to tower,
whether at a military or civilian field, any time a landing is to be made;
also, we use our callsign at the beginning of transmissions, vs at the end)
I would also modify the statement:
>Tower - Puts you into the pattern with good separation, sequences you for
>landing, and gets you landed.
>
This is worded too passively for my tastes. Tower helps YOU put yourself in
the pattern with good separation, and will issue a landing clearance. It is up
to you to get yourself into the pattern safely, and on deck in the same manner.
You should maximize see and avoid, and back it up with hear and avoid. Also,
if you see a potential conflict developing, and are not sure if Tower is aware
of it, it is up to you to take and/or recommend corrective action. Extended
upwinds and downwinds, left or right 360s, short approaches, and early speed
reductions/config changes all leap to mind as options.
Same concepts apply to Ground. Example which leaps to mind about poor Ground
Control and pilot coordination is a case where a friend of mine was cleared to
taxi behind a C-130 to the duty runway. What Ground apparently didn't realize
was that the Herc was about to do a ground runup. T-34's don't taxi well
behind 4 powered up 5000HP turboprop engines... My buddy heard the engine
noise, and opted to hold position until he heard the Herc quiet back down, at
which time he, the Ground controller, and the Herc pilot got on the same page.
In my experience, Clearance does not assign a runway. They leave that to
Ground. Another thing to bear in mind, if flying IFR: Clearance will assign
you an altitude. However, if you are flying a SID, and the SID has altitude
restrictions, Clearance won't mention these. You are still expected to adhere
to the restrictions, climbing to your cleared altitude when allowed by the SID.
If Clearance wants you to ignore the restrictions, they need to specifically
state that. For example:
"4Foxtrot477, cleared as filed to ARA, climb maintain 4000, expect 9000, 2000
foot altitude restriction deleted, departure frequency will be 343.65 or
120.05, squawk 4514."
Joe's basic sequence of comm's is pretty much on for VFR. Remember to get
field information prior to contacting Approach if at all possible, as this
minimizes radio traffic and helps you get ahead of the aircraft.
Nav8or
Morris Bernstein
>> "Tower, Cessna 444EK has the traffic in sight." or
>> "Tower, Cessna 444EK contact on the traffic"
>
>And throw in a "Talley Ho" in there if you're bored. :)
With my statistically significant sample of one, I'd say avoid that
phrase. The only time I heard somone use it, the tower got really
snippy with him. The, uh, declined understanding what he was talking
about.
Morris
--
Morris Bernstein mor...@blarg.net
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Morris Bernstein
>>
>> Do you use this as initial callup, or do you use something
>> to get his attention first?
>
>Personally, I use something like this as the initial. The only time I do an
>"attention getter" is when asking for flight-following from a center.
Talking to different controllers, some prefer the attention-getting
callup, and others prefer the single transmission. I'll use the
attention-getter for Center/Approach, and especially for flight
services because one controller/"specialist" may be monitoring several
frequencies. Even if your frequency is silent, you may be
inturrupting someone else.
Local class D towers seem to prefer the single smooth transmission to
minimize their frequency congestion.
>> Is 10 miles a suitable distance?
>
>You have to have radio contact before entering a class-D. The usual radius
>of a class-D is 4nm. I typically call in at about 5 or 6. Also, I report my
>position with a landmark (like "abeam the landfill", "crossing over the
>lake", "over Mayberry") instead of distance/direction.
The reporting points are usually identified on the map and are coupled
with local procedures. Coming from the west into Boeing Field in
Seattly, you'll report "North end of Vashon Island" and typically be
asked to "fly the Vashon approach, report the reservoir". If you're
not a local, you'll have no idea WTH that is, so respond with the
phrase "unfamiliar".
I've never flown into Olympia WA, but the flight guide says to use the
flagged reporting points unless your aircraft is equiped with DME.
Morris
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JStricker
I get asked quite a few times in the Twin Comanche what my performance is if
the airport is busy. The Twin Comanche flies the approaches quite a bit
faster than the singles and while they aren't rare, they aren't common
either.
My initial callup to ATC is normally "XXX Center, Twin Comanche NXXXXX
calling on 1XX.XX". Then I wait for them to respond with "Twin Comanche
NXXXXX go ahead".
I've found that often as not, if I get more involved than that on initial
callup, the controller, who isn't expecting me to start yelling in his ear
anyway, needs to have me repeat something and it ends up taking more on-air
time than if I do more than that initially.
Sometimes there's only one frequency you can call on, but others there are
various approach frequencies and center controllers routinely monitor
numerous frequencies so I figure it might help them out if I tell them what
I'm calling on.
John Stricker
--
"I didn't spend all these years getting to the top of the food chain
just to become a vegetarian"
Joe Emenaker <jeme...@mail.cob.calpoly.edu> wrote in message
news:7ic2eg$16...@news1.newsguy.com...
gwh...@ix.netcom.com
Made my second flight today with a new victim. What I do
and why I do it might be of interest for those flying in
Class D airspace.
Prior to starting the engine I pre-decide both the departure
direction and arrival direction. Using a tape recorder the
student and I work through the radio procedures for both
departure and arrival before getting into the aircraft. We
are in the process of building our checklist for this aircraft
which will be a mix of list and finger flow using the tape recorder.
Departure Procedure:
Student: "Concord Ground Cessna 6469M east ramp taxi with ALPHA
request 32 R" (No pauses or punctuation)
ATC:69M taxi 32R
Student: 69M understand 32R (required acknowledgment)
After completing runup...
Student: "69M will taxi closer to hold bars before contacting tower"
(This is done so as to position aircraft for clearing base and final
approach corridors)
ATC: "69M approved"
Student: "Concord tower Cessna 6469M ready on 32R request on course
Rio Vista"
(This particular call is more precise than requesting a crosswind
departure which is relatively vague. Picking a precise route allows
other aircraft to know better where to look. Any other communications
will ALWAYS include our altitude as an additional aid to other aircraft.)
ATC: "69M cleared for takeoff right turn to Rio Vista Approved"
(No response required but may be made)
ATC: "69M aircraft has just reported Kamin for downwind entry"
Student: "69M out of 1200 approaching Willow Pass looking for traffic"
(Altitude is given not for ATC's benefit but for other pilot.)
Arrival Procedure:
Get and write ATIS:
Student: "Concord Tower Cessna 6469M one East Pittsburg stacks at 2300
with ALPHA ...request right base for 32R will report two-mile base.
(The controller was quite busy so the request part was omitted to give
her time to sort things out. Pittsburg stacks is a very common reporting
point so I teach my students to report to one side or the other from the
stacks as a traffic avoidance procedure. No sooner had we given our
position as one East that another aircraft reported over the stacks.
There is more to becoming an old pilot than just luck.)
ATC: "69M report 2-mile base"
Student: 69M will report 2-mile base"
ATC was having trouble with helicopter pilot who did not know what a
left 270 was or otherwise how to follow ATC instructions. Student tried
to give 2-mile report without success. I tried to get in a 1-mile report
without success but was able to report turning final...
ATC: "69M Cleared to land"
(During roll out we angled for an exit from the runway which was an
intersecting runway. There is a recent AIM change which indicates that
an intersecting runway cannot be used as an exit without ATC approval.
We slowed for the runway exit. I was prepared to taxi the 1/8 mile
to a taxiway but the controller picked up on the problem and told us
to turn left when able.
Tonight student and I discussed the problem of not being able to make
the two-mile report. I indicated that we did not descend until cleared
to land. We would have overflown the runway at pattern altitude and
re-entered on downwind. I do not and did not consider making unauthorized
turns as an alternative. This was the first time in 30 years I have had
this happen. I feel that some instructor allowed an incompetent student
to solo. It was a good lesson as to how the best preparation can go awry.
Gene Whitt
Dylan Smith
>
> P. Jantson <PJan...@ustinallt.com> wrote:
> > I'm a student pilot, just solo and I'd like to prepare for
> > operations at Class D/C/B airports.
>
> Never done a B (although I plan to fly through the LAX VFR corridor in
about
> a month). C and D are pretty different. REALLY different, actually.
Class B is pretty similar to class C for the purpose of RT procedure. It's
just busier. Also, remember to get ATIS (that's the only thing I could see
missing from your post) because I think the controllers get tired of
repeating the information if you forget to mention you got Information
(letter).
Another good thing to remember for the initial callup is this acronym: PACER
(or PHACER if you're somewhere that needs heading information). It expands
as follows:
P - Position
A - Altitude
C - Conditions (VFR/IFR) : this is normally ommitted in the US - so it
becomes PAER.
E - en-route to/estimate over next reporting point (depending on your
situation)
R - Request.
For example, flying into Houston Hobby on Monday (Class B primary airport) I
made my initial callup as follows:
Me: Houston Approach, Grumman niner niner six zero uniform.
Ap: Grumman six zero uniform go ahead
Me: Approach, Grumman six zero uniform is over (P) Daisetta (A) two thousand
eight hundred (C was ommitted) (E,R combined here) landing at Hobby with
Tango
Ap: Grumman six zero uniform, squawk 0203 and ident...
Or to just get flight following, and adding C for Conditions:
Me: Approach, Grumman six zero uniform is over (P) Daisetta (A) two thousand
eight hundred (C) vfr (E) en-route Houston Gulf (R) request flight following
Since Approach see Grumman six zero uniform a lot, I didn't need to tell
them my type of Grumman. However, if flying a club plane from Houston Gulf,
my initial callup would have the type in, as follows:
Me: Approach, Cessna one niner foxtrot is a one seventy two, (P) just
departed Houston Gulf (A) at one thousand five hundred (E) en-route Weiser
(R) request flight following.
I've found doing it this way means that I don't sound like a FLIB to Houston
Approach, and they'll usually just clear me into Class B. You hear a lot of
people around here who will do something like:
FLIB: Approach, Cessna one two three, just departed Houston Gulf, request
flight following
App: Cessna one two three, say destination
FLIB: Approach, destination is Podunk
App: Cessna one two three, say altitude...
and so on. This usually earns you a "Remain clear of Class B" ;-)
--
Dylan Smith, Houston TX.
http://www.icct.net/~dyls
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"