Cherokees and X-winds
Steve Halasz
few weeks ago, after doing most of my training here in Denver in 172s,
I bought a '71 Cherokee 180 (I love it). Anyway, my CFI and I were up
this morning getting some dual time under the hood, and when we
finished up runway 26 had a 15 knot crosswind at 220. In the past
I've always set up a slip on final to deal with crosswinds, but my CFI
had me try the crab-it-in and take out the crab on flare style of
landing. Worked great, and it was one of my best landings ever,
kissed it down on the mains, no side load whatever—until the nosewheel
came down, and the plane headed smartly for the RIGHT side of the
runway.
Got straightened out okay (love those wide runways), but my CFI was as
puzzled as I was about what had happened—then I remembered reading
somewhere that unlike Cessnas, the nosewheel steering on Pipers
doesn't de-link in the air. If that's so, when I touched down with a
bunch of right rudder, was the nosewheel also pointed right, so that
instead of wanting to weathervane left, as I'd expect, the plane
deviated to the right?
Any of you guys familiar with Cherokees have an opinion? And if
that's what happened, is there anything that you do about it, other
than just have fast feet?
Bob Gardner
control attached to the vertical shaft of the right-seat left rudder pedal.
They learned to just let go of the hand control when the nosewheel came
down...but they learned the wing-low (slip) method of handling crosswinds.
Unless Isaac Newton has been fooling us all these years, if the airplane is
pointing down the runway and traveling down the runway, it will continue
down the runway when the nosewheel touches. Using the kick-out method, which
I would never do with a paraplegic student (or anyone else, for that matter)
offers the opportunity to head for the boonies, as you have experienced.
Unless you have wing-mounted engines, like a 747, use the slip method.
Bob Gardner
"Steve Halasz" <steve...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:f73b5562.03091...@posting.google.com...
> I've got about 45 hours now and am getting close to checkride time. A
> few weeks ago, after doing most of my training here in Denver in 172s,
> I bought a '71 Cherokee 180 (I love it). Anyway, my CFI and I were up
> this morning getting some dual time under the hood, and when we
> finished up runway 26 had a 15 knot crosswind at 220. In the past
> I've always set up a slip on final to deal with crosswinds, but my CFI
> had me try the crab-it-in and take out the crab on flare style of
> landing. Worked great, and it was one of my best landings ever,
> kissed it down on the mains, no side load whatever-until the nosewheel
> came down, and the plane headed smartly for the RIGHT side of the
> runway.
>
> Got straightened out okay (love those wide runways), but my CFI was as
> puzzled as I was about what had happened-then I remembered reading
Ken Hornstein
Bob Gardner <bob...@comcast.net> wrote:
>down the runway when the nosewheel touches. Using the kick-out method, which
>I would never do with a paraplegic student (or anyone else, for that matter)
>offers the opportunity to head for the boonies, as you have experienced.
>Unless you have wing-mounted engines, like a 747, use the slip method.
This brings up something I've always been curious about.
I learned wing-low (aka, "the slip method") for handling crosswinds.
Seems to work fine for me. However, a friend of mine who is halfway
through his private pilot (and at a different school) learned the crab
method. When I asked him about that, he told me that his instructor
didn't like wing-low because you were cross-controlled. I always heard
the big concern was a skid rather than a slip on final, but hey,
whatever.
When talking with other people I know who have their private pilot,
opinions are divided. One person told me that he preferred doing a
crab, because it was "more precise". I will confess that I don't really
know what he meant by that.
So, I'm curious ... which method do _you_ prefer, and why?
--Ken
Bob Gardner
people to slip to lose altitude and no one goes ape about it. In my
experience, unless the crosswind component is so great as to bring the whole
idea of flying into question, the amount of aileron and rudder deflection
involved in the wing-low method is minimal.
Why? It's easier to teach, easier for the student to visualize (witness the
number of postings in this ng recommending flight down the centerline while
maintaining crosswind controls) and does not require more-or-less perfect
timing. I can't think of a reason to advocate the kick-out method. Newton's
law that moving things tend to keep moving in the same direction is on my
side.
Bob Gardner
"Ken Hornstein" <ke...@cmf.nrl.navy.mil> wrote in message
news:bk7omk$eqf$1...@ra.nrl.navy.mil...
Greg Esres
like wing-low because you were cross-controlled. I always heard the
big concern was a skid rather than a slip on final, but hey, whatever.
>>
You're right. Slips are harmless, skids are baaaad! <g> Lots of
instructors have mis-learned what cross-controlled stalls are.
Giraud
the nose wheel mechanism than which landing method (slip or kickout)
is used, right?
Even with the slip method, the rudder is deflected, and if the nosewheel
is also deflected, when it touchs, the plane will want to head in that
direction. For that matter, wouldn't even a Cessna will do this if you keep
the rudder deflection in after the nose comes down, thereby engaging the
steer? This is interesting, as I don't think I've ever noticed this
effect. Maybe it's because I usually re-center the rudder in time...?
Giraud
Jeremy Lew
any difference with regard to what you are describing. If you're in a crab
to the left, you kick out to the right and therefore your nosewheel is
pointing right of center. If you're in a left-wing-low slip, nose pointing
down the centerline, your nosewheel is also pointing to the right since you
are offsetting the yaw with right rudder. So, you should get the same
effect either way, no? I'm guessing that the proper way to compensate is to
do a nice, nose-high landing and make sure the pedals are centered after the
mains touch but before the nose gear comes down.
"Steve Halasz" <steve...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:f73b5562.03091...@posting.google.com...
> I've got about 45 hours now and am getting close to checkride time. A
> few weeks ago, after doing most of my training here in Denver in 172s,
> I bought a '71 Cherokee 180 (I love it). Anyway, my CFI and I were up
> this morning getting some dual time under the hood, and when we
> finished up runway 26 had a 15 knot crosswind at 220. In the past
> I've always set up a slip on final to deal with crosswinds, but my CFI
> had me try the crab-it-in and take out the crab on flare style of
> landing. Worked great, and it was one of my best landings ever,
> kissed it down on the mains, no side load whatever-until the nosewheel
> came down, and the plane headed smartly for the RIGHT side of the
> runway.
>
> Got straightened out okay (love those wide runways), but my CFI was as
> puzzled as I was about what had happened-then I remembered reading
Ron McKinnon
"Bob Gardner" <bob...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:_iK9b.86167$mp.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> I can't think of a reason to advocate the kick-out method. Newton's
> law that moving things tend to keep moving in the same direction is on my
> side.
While I agree with your preference and recommendation for the
'slip method', your Newton's law argument is flawed.
Whether the 'slip' or the 'crab & kick' method, the plane should still be
moving in the same direction, straight down the centerline. Its just
pointing a different direction for the crab method, not travelling a
different direction. But if the wheels are not quite aligned with the
direction of motion at touchdown this will produce a side force that
will want to send you skittering off to one side or the other. .
Bob Gardner
control after the mains touched down and concentrated on the yoke and
throttle.
Bob Gardner
"Jeremy Lew" <js...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bk7v3u$q0og4$1...@ID-180574.news.uni-berlin.de...
Jeff
the nose wheel touching down, make sure you straighten out the nose wheel,
yes it does turn with the rudder in the air just as the rudder goes back
and forth while your turning on the ground.
I use both methods, crab or slip, all depends on how strong the wind is
and how the airplane feels. the only thing with crabbing is make sure you
get the nose wheel pointed the right direction before it touches down.
Other then that I think its just preference. kind like some prefer high
wing plane and other low wing.
Mike Granby
> I use both methods, crab or slip, all depends on
> how strong the wind is and how the airplane feels.
I'm the same. If there isn't much crosswind, I'll slip the plane to align it
with the runway, it keep it that way all the way down. If it's a strong
crosswind or a gusty one, rather than having to keep the rudder so far in,
or keep having to dance and slew the plane around all the time, I'll
typically put in enough slip to keep me vaguely pointing in the right
direction, and then straighten it out more as I get lower and things start
to calm down a little more.
--
Mike Granby, PP-ASEL,IA
Warrior N44578
http://www.mikeg.net/plane
Dale
<gir...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Even with the slip method, the rudder is deflected, and if the nosewheel
> is also deflected, when it touchs, the plane will want to head in that
> direction. For that matter, wouldn't even a Cessna will do this if you keep
> the rudder deflection in after the nose comes down, thereby engaging the
> steer? This is interesting, as I don't think I've ever noticed this
> effect. Maybe it's because I usually re-center the rudder in time...?
The Cessna singles have a bungee connection to the nosewheel so it isn't as
solid as the Piper nosewheel steering. There will be some turning tendancy but
not as strong or sudden as the Piper will do. And the Cessna nosewheel centers
when the strut is extended (which is why you have troubled turning during taxi
with an aft load which extends the nosestrut).
--
Dale L. Falk
There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.
Maule Driver
> Other then that I think its just preference. kind like some prefer high
> wing plane and other low wing.
>
BTIZ
slip or crab... the longitudinal axis of the airplane should still be
aligned with the centerline (or direction of motion) when a wheel touches..
to most.. that will mean wing low into the wind and the upwind main touches
first...
for those that crab down final and then "kick it out".. do you also drop a
wing with the kick out? if not.. then you most likely are drifting sideways
across the runway.. bad.. bad.. bad..
if the nose wheel is canted (with the rudder) to maintain a slip.. then keep
the nose wheel off the ground until both mains are on the ground and then as
the nose settles,, center the rudder..
as a student pilot 30yrs ago.. I just could not slip down final.. always
crab and kick.. but good crosswind landings.. then about 10yrs later..
checking out in a J-3.. it "clicked".. and later.. in a blustery winter
45degree 30knt wind.. I was slipping down final without even thinking about
it.. regardless of whether it was Cessna, Piper, Beech, tail wheel or nose
wheel..
BT
"Steve Halasz" <steve...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:f73b5562.03091...@posting.google.com...
> I've got about 45 hours now and am getting close to checkride time. A
> few weeks ago, after doing most of my training here in Denver in 172s,
> I bought a '71 Cherokee 180 (I love it). Anyway, my CFI and I were up
> this morning getting some dual time under the hood, and when we
> finished up runway 26 had a 15 knot crosswind at 220. In the past
> I've always set up a slip on final to deal with crosswinds, but my CFI
> had me try the crab-it-in and take out the crab on flare style of
> landing. Worked great, and it was one of my best landings ever,
> kissed it down on the mains, no side load whatever-until the nosewheel
> came down, and the plane headed smartly for the RIGHT side of the
> runway.
>
> Got straightened out okay (love those wide runways), but my CFI was as
> puzzled as I was about what had happened-then I remembered reading
Joseph D. Farrell
and control is better since you have all the controls 'loaded' and
thus small changes have results - opposed to have no load on the
ailerons and then there is a little cable 'slop' which needs to be
taken up which results in a little doosie doo.
I have a 180C and 90% of my Xwind landings are with wing low. Now,
with a 2-3kt Xwind, a little crab is not a big deal.
Chances of cross-control stall are very very low - unless you get all
screwed up . . . sure - in a slip you are cross-controlled, but why
do they REQUIRE a forward slip to landing in the PTS unless they want
you to be competent to perform it???
Joe Farrell
N8846J
Gary L. Drescher
news:vmfb7ic...@corp.supernews.com...
> "Jeff" <je...@vcomm.net> wrote:
>
> > I use both methods, crab or slip, all depends on
> > how strong the wind is and how the airplane feels.
>
> I'm the same. If there isn't much crosswind, I'll slip the plane to align
it
> with the runway, it keep it that way all the way down. If it's a strong
> crosswind or a gusty one, rather than having to keep the rudder so far in,
> or keep having to dance and slew the plane around all the time, I'll
> typically put in enough slip to keep me vaguely pointing in the right
> direction, and then straighten it out more as I get lower and things start
> to calm down a little more.
I prefer to crab until short final, but transition to a slip well before the
flare. I don't usually like to slip all the way down, for two reasons: the
ASI loses accuracy in a slip; and slipping changes the descent angle. I
prefer to control the descent independently of the crosswind correction.
On the other hand, one of my instructors advocates slipping instead of
crabbing, in order to find out higher up whether the crosswind is too strong
for the plane.
--Gary
Maule Driver
> (crab or slip)
> So, I'm curious ... which method do _you_ prefer, and why?
>
light a/c in any conditions.
I believe that all xwind landings should end in a wing low slip with the
longitudinal axis aligned with the direction of movement. If wings are
level and the axis aligned at the moment of touchdown, you are drifting and
at best relying on the strength of the landing gear and the friction of the
tires to stop the drift. That will work (all the pieces will stay on and
you'll be able to stay close to the intended path of rollout) up to a point.
Do that on a patch of ice or a puddle and you'll discover the drift.
I maintain that the only difference in the 2 methods is how you fly down
final. Once in the flare, or even at the moment of touchdown, the proper
method is to finish with a wing low slip. IOW, the kickout of the crab
requires a simutaneous drop of the upwind wing. (Interested in your opinion
here Bob)
I've always tended to fly a slip all the way down short final but I don't
think that is the best technique, especially with passengers. Passengers
definitely prefer level wings (crab) so I'll transition during the flare in
those cases.
I find it interesting in high xwind conditions to try to slip all the way
donw final. If the wind is high enough, I'll run out of rudder and will
have to maintain both a crab and a max rudder slip, then allow the crab to
diminish as the wind gradient decreases. Hopefully I'll reach the point
where the slip alone will allow me to touch down without drift...
.... but if it doesn't, I *have* to go around because my tailwheel Maule
just won't tolerate it and we'll end up in a cloud of dust.
James M. Knox
news:i2Z9b.486701$o%2.216095@sccrnsc02:
> On the other hand, one of my instructors advocates slipping instead of
> crabbing, in order to find out higher up whether the crosswind is too
> strong for the plane.
The trouble there is that it is sort of self fulfilling. It's only "too
strong for the plane" if you are going to land in a slip. If not, then
there is not much point in "testing it."
The limit for the slip landing method is control authority. For most
modern planes the limit of that control authority is the rudder (i.e.
you can bank a lot more, but don't have any more rudder travel to keep
the nose pointed down the runway). Aerobatic and older planes usually
had much larger rudder area.
The "crab" or "kickout" landing (and Ercoupe and B-52 pilots need not
apply) does NOT have this limit. As a result you can land using this
method in a lot higher crosswind than would otherwise be possible. Lots
of bush pilots think nothing of a 35 knot crosswind in a light plane,
something that would give the rest of us nightmares.
The two things to remember about this method, however, are:
1. Timing is everything. It has a lot less room for error than the slip
method, which is why the slip method is almost universally taught in the
lower 48 these days.
2. No matter how you land, you still have to be able to stay on the
runway until stopped, and may have to taxi without help after that.
[Having "wing walkers" run out right after you get slowed down and grab
the wing struts to help hold the plane down, then "walk" it in to the
hangar, can be a big bonus.]
-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721 jk...@trisoft.com
-----------------------------------------------
ZikZak
f73b5562.03091...@posting.google.com, "Steve Halasz"
<steve...@mail.com> wrote:
> Any of you guys familiar with Cherokees have an opinion? And if
> that's what happened, is there anything that you do about it, other
> than just have fast feet?
I guess I'll add my $0.02 since I fly an Arrow. I dislike slipping all the
way down final for the simple reason that prolonged slips are uncomfortable
on the pilot's posterior. This is even more true for passengers who might
not know exactly what's going on and who might get concerned about /
nauseated due to feeling sideways forces in what visually appears to be
straight flight across the ground.
For a normal crosswind landing, I will generally crab down to about 40-50
feet, then transition to a slip a few seconds before the flare. That seems
to be the happy medium for me. Final approach is comfortable, and you don't
have to have feet quite as fast as for the pure crab & kick method.
Maule Driver
"James M. Knox" <jk...@trisoft.com> wrote in message
> The trouble there is that it is sort of self fulfilling. It's only "too
> strong for the plane" if you are going to land in a slip. If not, then
> there is not much point in "testing it."
> The limit for the slip landing method is control authority.
>
> The "crab" or "kickout" landing (and Ercoupe and B-52 pilots need not
> apply) does NOT have this limit. As a result you can land using this
> method in a lot higher crosswind than would otherwise be possible. Lots
> of bush pilots think nothing of a 35 knot crosswind in a light plane,
> something that would give the rest of us nightmares.
First, I think a 35 knot xwind in a light plane gets everyone's attention,
especially with a tailwheel, but that's a subjective opinion.
I think what's really going on is that you can fly a crab or combination
crab/slip down to flare, then kick it straight while establishing a wing
low slip. If that slip isn't enough to completely keep it straight, then
the tires and landing gear are used to absorb the remaining side loads.
OTOH, if you were to simply kick it straight and remain wings level in a 35
knot xwind, there's going to be a major swerve, ground loop, or otherwise
ugly manuevering after touchdown. This is a lightplane statement.
The same thing goes on during takeoff in such conditions. Imagine keeping
both wheels on the runway until liftoff, then kicking it into a wings level
crab. There's going to be a lot of shaved rubber and drifting going on
unless a slip is established as the plane accelerates and a wing low takeoff
is performed.
> The two things to remember about this method, however, are:
>
> 1. Timing is everything. It has a lot less room for error than the slip
> method, which is why the slip method is almost universally taught in the
> lower 48 these days.
I think the slip is always correct. The only reason to crab is if the wind
exceeds your slip capability. Agreed that timing is everything in this
advanced manuever.
> 2. No matter how you land, you still have to be able to stay on the
> runway until stopped, and may have to taxi without help after that.
>
I don't know if you have actually done this in a light plane with a 35 knot
xwind - esp with a tailwheel. If you have, you did it with a combination
slip crab. And at touchdown, the emphasis is on slip. What I can easily
imagine is that a highly proficient pilot will do the slip without much
thought but will be very aware that the slip needs to be augmented with a
crab because he has run out of control authority. And all that can take
place during the flare or the 'kick' if you will.
I've landed gliders in wind conditions associated with thunderstorms (why?
dunno). You don't run out of control authority in a slip but you do run out
of space between the tip and the ground - same effect. So I have been
forced to do the slip/crab combination and kick it out. The wheel is within
a a foot of your head and butt so there is a high awareness of the tire
scrubbing that goes on. The wing has to be kept low or it will be blown
over. The thing you find you can't completely control in a strong xwind is
weathervaning. That is, as the downwind drift is conquered by wheel
friction and slipping, the a/c wants to weathervane into the wind and you
will lose control of it until it is pointed closer to the wind.
Groundlooping is the price of screwing it up and that can snap the tail.
The real challenge is that going around is not an option....
..so as a practical matter, what you try to do is reduce the xwind by flying
closer to the wind. This is almost always possible, even in a glider where
you can't always choose your airport. If the runway is wide, land
diagonally towards the wind. Forget the centerline but watch the tips
(runway lights). Be creative in picking a runway - there may be a closed
grass area, or a closed hardsurface. Both are probably better than
off-airport or a groundloop. If you can't get closer to wind, use
obstructions - hangars, treelines, etc. I'm guessing that any north
country bush pilot does the same things without thinking much about it.
Anybody fly a Beaver in such conditons? Anybody have a video of a
*lightplane* landing in a strong xwind using a crab? (There are plenty of
pics of heavy iron crabbing on with a big cloud of rubber smoke)
Gary L. Drescher
> "Gary L. Drescher" <GLDre...@deja.com> wrote in
> news:i2Z9b.486701$o%2.216095@sccrnsc02:
>
> > On the other hand, one of my instructors advocates slipping instead of
> > crabbing, in order to find out higher up whether the crosswind is too
> > strong for the plane.
>
> The trouble there is that it is sort of self fulfilling. It's only "too
> strong for the plane" if you are going to land in a slip. If not, then
> there is not much point in "testing it."
The instructor was just addressing slipping all the way down vs. crabbing
until short final and then slipping well before the flare. The
crab-and-kick method wasn't part of the comparison.
--Gary
Steve Halasz
> any difference with regard to what you are describing. If you're in a crab
> to the left, you kick out to the right and therefore your nosewheel is
> pointing right of center. If you're in a left-wing-low slip, nose pointing
> down the centerline, your nosewheel is also pointing to the right since you
> are offsetting the yaw with right rudder. So, you should get the same
> effect either way, no?
Yes— the method shouldn't make any difference, logically speaking, and
since I'd never had that experience in x-wind landings in Cessnas, I
wondered whether it wasn't down to a mechanical difference in the nose
gear. Especially since the landing itself seemed fine— gently down on
the mains, no side loads, nose right on the centerline until the
nosewheel had lowered into contact with the runway. . . . I'll be
ready for it next time ;)
As to slip vs. crab. . . . my instructor (Michelle Davenport at FTG. .
. . grew up flying in Alaska. . . .very knowledgeable and assured,
always pleasant and interested in my progress) taught me the slip
method, which I'd always used until yesterday, when she suggested I
try the crab method for the sake of the experience. I tend to think
that trying to do anything at the last minute on final isn't the
greatest idea, especially since my best landings seem to happen when I
do the best job of stabilizing my approach, but this didn't seem too
bad. To me, the references to "kicking out" the crab in the roundout
always sounded like it would be kind of haphazard and rushed, but it
didn't feel that way. Kind of hard to say based on one landing :) .
. . . but my instinct is to agree with the posters who say that in
strong winds they get in the ballpark with a slip and make final
adjustments after the roundout.
BTW, I've been mainly a lurker (hate that term) on this ng during my
training, and it's been very helpful at times. (First few posts are
kinda like talking to the tower the first few times). When I was
having a slump with landings in general at about ten hours, I read a
bunch of the archived landing technique posts, which had some great
insights from those who'd been there and had the T-shirt, as they say.
Thanks for all the great replies to my original post.
Jeremy Lew
news:7pZ9b.17968$x21....@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> "Ken Hornstein" <ke...@cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
> > (crab or slip)
> > So, I'm curious ... which method do _you_ prefer, and why?
> >
> I challenge whether crabbing and kicking is a legitimate way to land any
> light a/c in any conditions.
>
> I believe that all xwind landings should end in a wing low slip with the
> longitudinal axis aligned with the direction of movement. If wings are
> level and the axis aligned at the moment of touchdown, you are drifting
and
> at best relying on the strength of the landing gear and the friction of
the
> tires to stop the drift. That will work (all the pieces will stay on and
> you'll be able to stay close to the intended path of rollout) up to a
point.
> Do that on a patch of ice or a puddle and you'll discover the drift.
That might be technically true, but it surely takes an appreciable amount of
time for the crosswind to overcome your crabbing inertia. E.g. if you have a
15kt crosswind component, you're not instantaneously going to be travelling
15kts sideways when you kick the nose straight.
Maule Driver
> I think the slip is always correct. The only reason to crab is if the
wind
> exceeds your slip capability. Agreed that timing is everything in this
> advanced manuever.
>
> *lightplane* landing in a strong xwind using a crab? (There are plenty of
> pics of heavy iron crabbing on with a big cloud of rubber smoke)
>
(in addtion to Ercoupes & perhaps BUFs), that is crosswind landing gear.
Nothing looks stranger than a taildragger with xwind lg taxiing along in a
strong wind. But the gear allows a taildragger to TO and Land in a full
crab at the expense of mechanical ugliness.
I think they are mostly history now. I saw one once at AGC taxi out for a
zero zero takeoff. Could have been a Beaver. There was no wind but it
still looked strange. So strange I didn't know what it was until several
years later when I read about it. Of course I couldn't see it take off.
Only now can I appreciate the strangeness of that whole operation.
Love to see a video of a xwind lg at work.
Maule Driver
news:BB8DD1C0.F697%zik...@66.gov...
>
> For a normal crosswind landing, I will generally crab down to about 40-50
> feet, then transition to a slip a few seconds before the flare. That seems
> to be the happy medium for me.
I think this is the optimal technique for most landings. I hope that many
of the people who think they do a crab and kick are actually doing this.
Maule Driver
I believe that all xwind landings should end in a wing low slip with the
> > longitudinal axis aligned with the direction of movement. If wings are
> > level and the axis aligned at the moment of touchdown, you are drifting
> and
> > at best relying on the strength of the landing gear and the friction of
> the
> > tires to stop the drift. That will work (all the pieces will stay on
and
> > you'll be able to stay close to the intended path of rollout) up to a
> point.
> > Do that on a patch of ice or a puddle and you'll discover the drift.
>
> That might be technically true, but it surely takes an appreciable amount
of
> time for the crosswind to overcome your crabbing inertia. E.g. if you have
a
> 15kt crosswind component, you're not instantaneously going to be
travelling
> 15kts sideways when you kick the nose straight.
>
I guess your right and that's perhaps why one can get away with it in
relatively benign conditions with a trike. On a practical level, in
stronger xwinds you need to keep the upwind wing from being lifted or you
can get in trouble. In a 15kt xwind, if you were to kick it straight and
land with the wings level and both mains at the same time, bad things *will*
happen if you are flying a light taildragger.
Trikes are superior to taildraggers in practically every way. I'm coming to
the conclusion that they are so superior, that they allow many pilots to get
away with significant mishandling in many situations. The problem I see is
that the same pilots may not be able to apply correct technique when needed.
Or may not be able to see that conditions exceed the ability of a given
technique to handle it.
Jeremy Lew
> Trikes are superior to taildraggers in practically every way. I'm coming
to
> the conclusion that they are so superior, that they allow many pilots to
get
> away with significant mishandling in many situations. The problem I see
is
> that the same pilots may not be able to apply correct technique when
needed.
> Or may not be able to see that conditions exceed the ability of a given
> technique to handle it.
That's certainly true. I recently took an "upsets and unusual attitudes"
course, which was essentially intro aerobatics taught in a Super Decathalon.
I asked my instructor why aerobatic planes tend to be taildraggers,
expecting some answer dealing with handling characteristics. But his answer
was essentially that tailwheels are less draggy and cheaper to maintain, and
aerobatic pilots need to be able to exert such a fine level of control over
the airplane that nosegear is basically useless. I'm considering extending
the training to get my taildragger endorsement not because I really want to
fly taildraggers, but because the expernience would increase my safety
envelope in all types.
Dylan Smith
>Why? It's easier to teach, easier for the student to visualize (witness the
>number of postings in this ng recommending flight down the centerline while
>maintaining crosswind controls) and does not require more-or-less perfect
>timing. I can't think of a reason to advocate the kick-out method. Newton's
>law that moving things tend to keep moving in the same direction is on my
>side.
Not really the kick-out method, but what I tend to do is fly the plane
in a crab until quite low down, and then transition to the wing low
method. Where I transition depends on the aircraft. In many aircraft
(especially tailwheel), I transition to a slip a little before going
over the fence. I really want to be going as straight as an arrow
at touchdown in any tailwheel plane, and I want a bit of time to
make absolutely sure I'm 'in the groove'.
At the other extreme is the Bonanza. The Bonanzas I've flown (mostly
the S-35 model) have bungee-linked rudder and aileron controls. It's
a bear to hold it in a slip for a long time, especially if the cross
wind is strong. (The S-35 is also placarded against slips lasting
in excess of 20 seconds, IIRC). In the Bonanza, I transition to
wing low during the flare. I've found it works perfectly in the Bonanza.
Transitioning to a slip very early if there's a good crosswind blowing
is likely to be a bit uncomfortable for passengers.
I have some great video of a landing in the Cessna 140 in a 20 knot
direct crosswind. It really shows a lot of wing low in the wing low
method :-) The video is taken from the cockpit.
--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"
Dylan Smith
<Cheroke...@hotmail.youknowwhattoadd> wrote:
>Chances of cross-control stall are very very low - unless you get all
>screwed up
In my Cessna 140 at least, I couldn't even get a stall break in a slip,
and we really did try to aggravate it. It just shook and the nose
bobbed slightly. In a straight ahead stall, there was a very noticable
nose drop in that plane (and if you were in a skid, it would spin
quite happily).
Wayne
anymore. Turn the aileron sharper and sharper into the wind as you slow
down, the adverse yaw will help you need less rudder to maintain the plane
straight with the runway and that makes less of a veer when the nosewheel
does touch down. Hope that is worded okay. Basically if the crosswind was
from the right, you would go wing low with right aileron, and kick left
rudder to get centerline with the runway. While carrying the nosewheel, add
more right aileron, the right aileron deflects up, the left one goes down
which helps yaw the plane to the left, helping the rudder and actually
making it take less left rudder. Try taxiing straight, fairly fast, and work
the ailerons back and forth, you will feel the adverse yaw at work and see
how much more rudder it takes to maintain a straight taxi.
Everyone likes the slip method, but sometimes new passengers get very
uncomfortable with them. Some do with a crab approach too though.
Wayne
> Got straightened out okay (love those wide runways), but my CFI was as
> puzzled as I was about what had happened-then I remembered reading
> somewhere that unlike Cessnas, the nosewheel steering on Pipers
> doesn't de-link in the air. If that's so, when I touched down with a
> bunch of right rudder, was the nosewheel also pointed right, so that
> instead of wanting to weathervane left, as I'd expect, the plane
> deviated to the right?
>
Highfllyer
"Steve Halasz" <steve...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:f73b5562.03091...@posting.google.com...
> I've got about 45 hours now and am getting close to checkride time. A
> few weeks ago, after doing most of my training here in Denver in 172s,
> I bought a '71 Cherokee 180 (I love it). Anyway, my CFI and I were up
> this morning getting some dual time under the hood, and when we
> finished up runway 26 had a 15 knot crosswind at 220. In the past
> I've always set up a slip on final to deal with crosswinds, but my CFI
> had me try the crab-it-in and take out the crab on flare style of
> landing. Worked great, and it was one of my best landings ever,
> kissed it down on the mains, no side load whatever-until the nosewheel
> came down, and the plane headed smartly for the RIGHT side of the
> runway.
>
> puzzled as I was about what had happened-then I remembered reading
> somewhere that unlike Cessnas, the nosewheel steering on Pipers
> doesn't de-link in the air. If that's so, when I touched down with a
> bunch of right rudder, was the nosewheel also pointed right, so that
> instead of wanting to weathervane left, as I'd expect, the plane
> deviated to the right?
>
> Any of you guys familiar with Cherokees have an opinion? And if
> that's what happened, is there anything that you do about it, other
> than just have fast feet?
Your analysis is correct. The Cessna has a spring in the nosewheel steering
coupling and the nosewheel decouples from the rudder pedals when the strut
is extended, like in the air. It does caster so it stays straight, even if
you are slipping to a crosswind landing.
On the Pipers the nosewheel is connected to the rudder pedals with a stiff
linkage. If the rudder is deflected so is the nosewheel.
The solution is NOT "fast feet." The solution is to keep the nose wheel in
the air when you land. By the time the nosewheel comes down the airplane is
already tracking and the slip disappeared when you got both mains firmly on
the ground. If you were properly using your feet to keep the nose pointed
at the far end of the runway, by the time you let the nose down the
nosewheel is pointed in the correct direction.
NEVER "three point" a tricycle gear airplane. ALWAYS land with the
nosewheel off the runway until the mains are FIRMLY on the runway and the
airplane is well below stall speed. :-)
Highflyer
Highfllyer
"Ken Hornstein" <ke...@cmf.nrl.navy.mil> wrote in message
news:bk7omk$eqf$1...@ra.nrl.navy.mil...
>
> This brings up something I've always been curious about.
>
> I learned wing-low (aka, "the slip method") for handling crosswinds.
> Seems to work fine for me. However, a friend of mine who is halfway
> through his private pilot (and at a different school) learned the crab
> method. When I asked him about that, he told me that his instructor
> didn't like wing-low because you were cross-controlled. I always heard
> the big concern was a skid rather than a slip on final, but hey,
> whatever.
>
> When talking with other people I know who have their private pilot,
> opinions are divided. One person told me that he preferred doing a
> crab, because it was "more precise". I will confess that I don't really
> know what he meant by that.
>
>
When done correctly both methods are the same. It is merely a question of
when you enter the slip!
In other words, the "crab and kick" method requires you to transition to a
slip during the flare. If you do NOT transition to a slip you will still
land with a lateral drift and the airplane will want to dart off in strange
directions. If it is a taildragger it will want to dart off in strange
directions backwards! Either will make for an exciting landing.
There IS a second way to deal with crosswinds, which is a "crab and don't
kick" landing. This is the way you HAVE to do crosswind landings in
Ercoupes and 747's! :-) Just keep the nose high enough so that the
nosewheel does NOT contact the runway . The drag of the main gear back
behind the center of gravity of the airplane will cause the nose to swing
right around in the direction you are moving as soon as the mains are firmly
on the ground. That is the ONLY way you can land in a crosswind withoug
having the controls "uncoordinated." Many routine flight maneuvers REQUIRE
that the controls be "uncoordinated." It is no big thing. I do recommend
that you avoid skidding turns religiously, however! :-)
It is very difficult to spin out of a slip. In fact, the only way you can
spin out of a slip is to convert it to a skid and then spin out of that. It
is very easy to spin out of a skidding turn. Many modern airplanes cannot
be spun EXCEPT from a skidding turn.
Highflyer
Highfllyer
"Bob Gardner" <bob...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:_iK9b.86167$mp.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> people to slip to lose altitude and no one goes ape about it. In my
> experience, unless the crosswind component is so great as to bring the
whole
> idea of flying into question, the amount of aileron and rudder deflection
> involved in the wing-low method is minimal.
>
> Why? It's easier to teach, easier for the student to visualize (witness
the
> number of postings in this ng recommending flight down the centerline
while
> maintaining crosswind controls) and does not require more-or-less perfect
> timing. I can't think of a reason to advocate the kick-out method.
Newton's
> law that moving things tend to keep moving in the same direction is on my
> side.
>
I always taught people to forget about "coordinated" on final approach.
You use the yoke like the steering wheel in a car to "steer" down the
extended centerline. Use the pedals separately to keep the nose of the
airplane pointed at the far end of the runway. If you can't keep over the
centerline and still keep the nose pointed at the other end of the runway
there is too much crosswind for your airplane to handle. :-)
The neat thing about that technique is you don't have to know what the
crosswind is or isn't. Wind or no wind, it works the same and always puts
you in the proper attitude regardless of the crosswind component. I have
used it successfully in no wind at all, and in crosswinds up to a
significant percentage ( greater than 80 percent ) of stall speed. The only
thing you have to remember is to check the clearance under your upwind
wingtip so you don't scrape the runway. I have scraped the runway on
occaision! :-/
Highflyer
Highfllyer
>> That might be technically true, but it surely takes an appreciable amount
of
> time for the crosswind to overcome your crabbing inertia. E.g. if you have
a
> 15kt crosswind component, you're not instantaneously going to be
travelling
> 15kts sideways when you kick the nose straight.
>
That is a common fallacy. You will be moving sideways within milliseconds.
The "crab-kick" concept in taildraggers has contributed to a large number of
ground loops over the years. You are already moving with the wind, whether
you are in a crab or a slip. When you "kick" the nose around you are
quickly turning the airplane. The airplane immediately trys to turn in the
direction you "kicked" it. The maneuver does require split second timing.
It is much easier and safer to transition to the winglow slip. You can put
off the transition to the flare if you wish. I prefer to see the transition
made a bit sooner to give yourself time to adjust for errors in the
transition before touchdown. Especially in a taildragger. :-)
Highflyer ( even most of my multiengine time is taildragger time! :-)
Highfllyer
> (> I don't know if you have actually done this in a light plane with a 35
knot
> xwind - esp with a tailwheel. If you have, you did it with a combination
> slip crab. And at touchdown, the emphasis is on slip. What I can easily
> imagine is that a highly proficient pilot will do the slip without much
> thought but will be very aware that the slip needs to be augmented with a
> crab because he has run out of control authority. And all that can take
> place during the flare or the 'kick' if you will.
>
>
I have landed many different taildraggers in crosswinds in that range. I
have always found that when I did the upwind wingtip was very close to the
surface of the runway. I much prefer to land little taildraggers in that
kind of crosswind on turf rather than pavement.
Typically, in a landing in that kind of crosswind the landing rollout ends
with a swerve directly into the wind. Then you have to sit there with
enough power on to hold the airplane against the wind, sometimes with the
tail in the air, until several someones come out to grab your struts and
either walk you into the hangar or tie the airplane down. Otherwise it will
blow away when you shut down the power.
I would be a bit nervous if a student pilot was flying in those conditions.
:-) Although, I must confess that I flew in those kind of conditions as a
student pilot in light taildraggers, Cubs, Champs, and Taylorcraft. And I
am NOT a superpilot by any means. I guess I would have to say that a
properly trained student pilot should be able to handle those conditions.
Highflyer
Highfllyer
"Gary L. Drescher" <GLDre...@deja.com> wrote in message
news:K90ab.485016$YN5.328228@sccrnsc01...
>
> "> The instructor was just addressing slipping all the way down vs.
crabbing
> until short final and then slipping well before the flare. The
> crab-and-kick method wasn't part of the comparison.
>
I recommend that students start out with crosswind landings by slipping all
the way down final. As they gain experience and get better at crosswind
landings they can make the transition from the crab you use in cruise flight
and climbout to the slip for landing later and later. I do not recommend
delaying the transition all the way to the flare at any time. I like to see
the aircraft stabilized with a wing down and the track right over the
centerline during the roundout phase of the landing. Of course the
crosswind correction must be maintained throughout the flare and roll out.
Fly it until you tie it! :-)
Highflyer
James M. Knox
Actually, I think you and I pretty much agree on virtually all of this.
Probably the only real question where our "guesses" may vary is on just
how much sideways velocity is built up in the second or so between when
plane is kicked straight and before it touches down. And, while I have
seen it done with amazing skill (not by me <G>), I don't have enough
data to model it on the computer.
> First, I think a 35 knot xwind in a light plane gets everyone's
> attention, especially with a tailwheel, but that's a subjective
> opinion.
No, I think that's a pretty accurate statement! <G>
> I've landed gliders in wind conditions associated with thunderstorms
> (why? dunno). You don't run out of control authority in a slip but you
> do run out of space between the tip and the ground - same effect.
Hence the my comment about B-52's. Same problem. Their solution was to
actually LAND in a crab (with landing gear adjusted to go straight down
the runway). Funny sight.
> Anybody fly a Beaver in such conditons? Anybody have a video of a
> *lightplane* landing in a strong xwind using a crab?
Plenty of articles, but I don't recall a video. Unless... anybody got a
complete set of Wide World of Flying? If there's video anywhere it will
be a Barry Schiff segment on one of those.
Roger Halstead
wrote:
>
>"Jeremy Lew" <js...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:bka5er$qkhfc$1...@ID-180574.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>> That might be technically true, but it surely takes an appreciable amount
>of
>> time for the crosswind to overcome your crabbing inertia. E.g. if you have
>a
>> 15kt crosswind component, you're not instantaneously going to be
>travelling
>> 15kts sideways when you kick the nose straight.
>>
>
>That is a common fallacy. You will be moving sideways within milliseconds.
True, you can "kick out" quickly.
To me, the main drawback with the kickout (which I prefer) is when the
winds are stong you don't know if you have enough control to handle
the cross wind component, until you try. OTOH with the slip to land
you know right away. You can either stay lined up with the runway, or
you can't. Soooo, if the winds are strong the pilot better know that
airplane pretty well. <:-))
Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
James M. Knox
> Plenty of articles, but I don't recall a video.
And the very next day I see Jay has his video links up. Perhaps not the
most elegant example (and perhaps less *intentional* than what we have been
describing here <G>), but...
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/extreme_landing.htm