First Plane: Cessna 172N or Cherokee 140
Cecil Chapman
first plane to own.
Right now I'm thinking of something along the lines of a used plane like the
Cessna 172 or Cherokee 140. I had toyed with the notion of a Cessna 152,
but I'm starting to think that a 4-place aircraft might be a good place to
begin with.
I'm figuring a price range of 35.5 to 55,000 for a good 172 or Cherokee 140
is in the ballpark?
Also, can anyone suggest a good book(s) / magazine articles on selecting a
first plane (trying to avoid as many pitfalls as possible <g>).
Thanks in advance!
Commercial checkride is tomorrow,,,,,, getting to sleep will be a real
trick, tonight <grin>....
I'll let y'all know how it goes. Right now I'm feeling fairly confident,
but not swaggering with confidence <grin>.
--
--
=-----
Good Flights!
Cecil
PP-ASEL-IA
Student - CP-ASEL
Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
Jim Burns
guess.... I'll wish you "well". :)
Jim
"Cecil Chapman" <bayare...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mbRMe.2461$Z%6....@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
Dan Luke
"Cecil Chapman" wrote:
> Right now I'm thinking of something along the lines of a used plane
> like the Cessna 172 or Cherokee 140. I had toyed with the notion of a
> Cessna 152, but I'm starting to think that a 4-place aircraft might be
> a good place to begin with.
The Cherokee 140 is pretty marginal, performance-wise. One that's been
upgraded to 160 HP is more nearly equivalent to a Cessna 172. Either
one would make a good starter airplane.
> I'm figuring a price range of 35.5 to 55,000 for a good 172 or
> Cherokee 140 is in the ballpark?
Depends on your definition of "good," but that's about right for older
models. It would take some shopping.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM?
Steve Foley
between the 152s and 172s. I think for your price range, you can look at
Warriors rather than 140s.
Advantages of my 140 over a Skyhawk:
Johnson bar flaps - no waiting for the motor.
Never lose sight of the runway turning downwind to base.
Better sealing door - keeps it nice and warm in the New England winters.
Can see landing traffic when pulling onto the runway.
Easy to visually check fuel.
Easier to re-fuel.
Doesn't have all those inspection panels in the floor.
No diamond shaped marks in your forehead from walking into an aileron.
Disadvanteges (I hope Jim Fisher's not reading)
Pain to walk all the way around the wings - especially in the hangar.
Tougher to check the gear when pre-flighting.
Only one door. You can't help you passanger in and then get in yourself. You
MUST get in first.
Smaller back seat (back seats almost unusable for adults - not so in a
Warrior)
Tear your pants on the stall warning switch.
More likely to hit a snowbank with a wingtip.
"Cecil Chapman" <bayare...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mbRMe.2461$Z%6....@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
Euan Kilgour
Jack Allison
As for C-172 vs. Cherokee 140, tough call. I'd have to fly a 140 first
before deciding. Having made the switch from brand C to brand P, there
are things I like and dislike about each. Whatever you wind up with
really doesn't matter. The fact that you'll have your own airplane is
really the important thing...though...if you opt for the high wing
route, as a present day Piper driver, I'm obligated to call you a
girly-man :-)
Interesting price point I found in looking at a Cherokee 180 vs. the
Arrow. I had one potential 2-way partnership on the Cherokee that would
have cost about the same as a 3-way partnership on an an Arrow.
A good book on partnerships: Aircraft Partnership by Geza Szurovy. Many
actual partnership profiles as well as a good breakdown of all costs.
--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Arrow N2104T
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci
(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)
Bob Noel
"Cecil Chapman" <bayare...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Right now I'm thinking of something along the lines of a used plane like the
> Cessna 172 or Cherokee 140. I had toyed with the notion of a Cessna 152,
> but I'm starting to think that a 4-place aircraft might be a good place to
> begin with.
I have a '74 140. Look at the useful load, the later years are not true
4-place aircraft. In fact, to save weight I've removed one rear seat and
the wheelpants (as a 3-place, I get a slight break on the insurance).
If you'll mostly fly solo, then this won't matter.
I like my 140. I like the IFR stability of it vs the 172. I originally learned
in the 172, but transitioned to the 140 and never really considered buying
a 172.
>
> I'm figuring a price range of 35.5 to 55,000 for a good 172 or Cherokee 140
> is in the ballpark?
wrt the 140, Yes. Don't know about the 172.
>
> Also, can anyone suggest a good book(s) / magazine articles on selecting a
> first plane (trying to avoid as many pitfalls as possible <g>).
There isn't anything that can substitute for owning an airplane to learn
what's it's like to own an airplane. :-/ Man, the stuff I wish I knew before
looking to buy my airplane. I still would have bought a 140, maybe even
the one I have, but the purchase price would have been different.
btw - guess what the difference in operating cost is for a cherokee 180 and
a cherokee 140... basically, nothing. If you can afford the purchase price, the
cherokee 180 won't really cost more to operate than the 140. Sure, the 180
burns more per hour, but it's faster (and no one said you had to fly at 75% all
the time).
good luck
--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule
Jay Beckman
news:mbRMe.2461$Z%6....@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
<Snip>
> Commercial checkride is tomorrow,,,,,, getting to sleep will be a real
> trick, tonight <grin>....
>
> I'll let y'all know how it goes. Right now I'm feeling fairly confident,
> but not swaggering with confidence <grin>.
>
> --
> --
> =-----
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student - CP-ASEL
Good luck on the checkride Cecil...
Looking forward to reading about a successful outcome!!
Jay Beckman - PP/ASEL
Arizona Cloudbusters
Chandler, AZ
Borislav Deianov
>
> Right now I'm thinking of something along the lines of a used plane like the
> Cessna 172 or Cherokee 140. I had toyed with the notion of a Cessna 152,
> but I'm starting to think that a 4-place aircraft might be a good place to
> begin with.
How about a Tiger? Haven't flown in one yet but everybody who owns one
seems to love them.
Me, I started looking for a Citabria. Then very nearly bought a share
of a Skybolt, then run away from an RV-3. Still looking at RV-3s but
getting more and more convinced I should just build an RV-7... All I
need is a two-car garage... Meanwhile I ended up with a half-share of
a Libelle (German fiberglass glider, made in 1966!)
> Also, can anyone suggest a good book(s) / magazine articles on selecting a
> first plane (trying to avoid as many pitfalls as possible <g>).
Aviation Consumer's "Used Aircraft Guide" has all the usual
suspects. If you mean a book on how to buy (rather than what to buy),
Brian Jacobson's "Purchasing & Evaluating Airplanes" is quite
thorough.
> Commercial checkride is tomorrow,,,,,, getting to sleep will be a real
> trick, tonight <grin>....
Have fun! The rest will take care of itself :-)
Best wishes,
Boris
Greg Copeland
> Well it was bound to happen sooner or later... Thinking/planning for the
> first plane to own.
>
> Right now I'm thinking of something along the lines of a used plane like the
> Cessna 172 or Cherokee 140. I had toyed with the notion of a Cessna 152,
> but I'm starting to think that a 4-place aircraft might be a good place to
> begin with.
>
If a 4-seater is what you're after, a Cherokee 140 is right out. A 140 is
a four seater which can carry two plus baggage. Having said that, from
what I've seen, you can get some really nice, babied 140/160s for the
price range you're looking at. On the flip side, if you rarely fly with
four seats, something like a 140 may make the most sense since you can
simply rent something larger when that rare occation comes up.
> I'm figuring a price range of 35.5 to 55,000 for a good 172 or Cherokee 140
> is in the ballpark?
>
Cheers,
Greg
Peter R.
> Well, won't be needing luck, so I don't know what to wish you. Well.... I
> guess.... I'll wish you "well". :)
"Break a leg."
(An actor's superstitious rendition of "good luck.")
--
Peter
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Potato Chip
considered the Warrior, but at this point, will be looking for a 172,
anything but an SP. Most of my time has been in Cessnas, so I feel more
comfortable at this point looking for a Cessna.
I have the following books on order, which i am hoping will give me
better insight on this buying process.
Buying and Owning Your Own Airplane, Third Edition [Paperback]
By: James E. Ellis
Aircraft Ownership : A Legal and Tax Guide [Unknown Binding]
By: Raymond C Speciale
The Complete Guide to Cessna Aircraft (2nd Edition) [Paperback]
By: Tom Murphy
Cheers,
Jay
Blanche
higher altitude or high temp. flying? If so, you may want to
look at a 180 hp engine. That 20/40/60 extra hp will really
make a difference.
Roger
<bayare...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Well it was bound to happen sooner or later... Thinking/planning for the
>first plane to own.
Cherokee 180. Lot more performance for not much more money.
>
>Right now I'm thinking of something along the lines of a used plane like the
>Cessna 172 or Cherokee 140. I had toyed with the notion of a Cessna 152,
>but I'm starting to think that a 4-place aircraft might be a good place to
>begin with.
>
>I'm figuring a price range of 35.5 to 55,000 for a good 172 or Cherokee 140
>is in the ballpark?
>
>Also, can anyone suggest a good book(s) / magazine articles on selecting a
>first plane (trying to avoid as many pitfalls as possible <g>).
>
The Aviation Consumer's "Used Aircraft Guide" gives you just about
any make and model of light aricraft up through cabin class twins and
contains a section of owner comments at the end of each write up.
This it a two volume set and contains a wealth of information
including the "gotchas" for each make and model.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Commercial checkride is tomorrow,,,,,, getting to sleep will be a real
>trick, tonight <grin>....
>
>I'll let y'all know how it goes. Right now I'm feeling fairly confident,
>but not swaggering with confidence <grin>.
>
>--
Roger
RST Engineering
#2. Find a mechanic that will teach you how to maintain your own airplane.
Or, figure one trip to Grass Valley every year to pick up your favorite
mechanic for the annual {;-)
#3. Your thought of a "4-place" airplane (which as other have noted, is 2
people plus a few bags) is a very clever one. The ONLY excuse for a 2-place
airplane is limited training or single pilot operation.
On the other hand, my SO and I made a round trip from San Diego to Boston in
a Cessna 120 back when I was young and stupid. I would probably do it again
today, but certainly not with no VOR and no other nav other than "out the
window".
Jim
"Cecil Chapman" <bayare...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mbRMe.2461$Z%6....@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
> Well it was bound to happen sooner or later... Thinking/planning for the
Cecil Chapman
plane that will also have the capability to serve as a decent IFR platform.
Perhaps, as others have pointed out, I should be comparing apples to apples;
for instance - C-172 to a Cherokee 180?
--
--
=-----
Good Flights!
Cecil
PP-ASEL-IA
Student - CP-ASEL
Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Blanche" <bco...@blackhole.nyx.net> wrote in message
news:11243925...@irys.nyx.net...
Cecil Chapman
an order for almost all of the books that came in your suggestions! :0) ).
I realize there's no way to totally insulate oneself from making a buying
mistake, but I'm going to do my best to eliminate the BIG errors <grin>.
I guess, best of all, I'm not 'consumed with a buying fever'; that is, I can
wait until (what I hope will be) the best opportunity for me, comes along
during my research.
Thanks again, everyone! :0)
Bob Noel
"Cecil Chapman" <bayare...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Perhaps, as others have pointed out, I should be comparing apples to apples;
> for instance - C-172 to a Cherokee 180?
160hp C-172 vs Cherokee 160 or Warrior II.
RST Engineering
the Piper series -- if you plan on doing some of your own wrenching.
Jim
"Bob Noel" <ihates...@netscape.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:ihatessppaamm-13A...@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
A Lieberman
> I'm figuring a price range of 35.5 to 55,000 for a good 172 or Cherokee 140
> is in the ballpark?
Hey Cecil
Keep in mind my opinion is "prejudiced", but how about a Beech Sundowner.
You can get a well equipped Sundowner for your price range.
Big plus is the creature comfort that the 172 or Cherokee does not offer.
Allen
RST Engineering
Jim
"A Lieberman" <lieb...@myself.com> wrote in message
news:1a7y1ev7o8yhx$.10k65tgm1no6.dlg@40tude.net...
A Lieberman
> Big minus is the cost of "genuine Beech parts" and service.
>
> Jim
Bit plus is once you get it fixed by a qualified A$P, you most likely won't
replace it again. :-)
I am a believer, you get what you pay for. :-))
Allen
RST Engineering
put in by a qualified assembler and inspected by a factory inspector. Why
did IT wear out?
Jim
"A Lieberman" <lieb...@myself.com> wrote in message
news:1wyuep3ayrdfc.d7lcr6g8kbai$.dlg@40tude.net...
A Lieberman
> Why do you believe that? It was a "genuine Beech part" in the first place
> put in by a qualified assembler and inspected by a factory inspector. Why
> did IT wear out?
Why did it wear out? Maybe I miss the obvious, but from usage.
Can only speak from my experiences, but any Beech part I have replaced has
not been re-replaced. My plane was underused, and as you already know,
that's worse then an overused plane.
Nothing lasts forever.
Allen
Steve Foley
Would you please provide some examples of how the systems compare in P vs C?
While unemployed, I spend a year as a grunt for my A&P, mostly working on
Cessna annuals. My Cherokee 140 seemed pretty similar. My A&P feels the
pipers are easier.
"RST Engineering" <j...@rstengineering.com> wrote in message
news:11gcl3r...@corp.supernews.com...
RST Engineering
other reason than the inspection of the wing underside is one hell of a lot
easier and you don't have shin scars. (Yeah, I know. THe inspection of the
TOP of the wing is easier and you don't have forehead scars.) {;-)
Jim
"Steve Foley" <steve...@DELETEatt.net> wrote in message
news:PwRNe.643978$cg1.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Jon Kraus
Now about the ownership thing... You might want to look into a 2 or 3
way partnership and get a nicer aircraft that you can split the
maintenance and upgrades accross 2 or 3 checkbooks instead of just 1.
As you know I am in a 2 way partnership on our Mooney and I have learned
many things in my almost 1 year of ownership ( I know a year isn't
much but I have learned a ton about ownership in that year). # 1 being
that owning is going to cost you more than renting I don't care what
anyone says. It is just more expensive owning, PERIOD. If you are not
prepared to spend more after you purchase than when you were renting
then you should just keep on renting. (If you don't believe me ask Jack
Allison what his opinion is on renting verses buying.) If you get into a
good partnership then it is almost like you own the airplane by
yourself. Especially if you are in a 2 way partnership. The only
difference is that when a maintenance expense comes up (there is
something almost every month) then you divide the cost by 2 instead of
1. I love that part!!
Now there is nothing, I mean nothing better then heading out to the
airport and climbing aboard an airplane that you OWN!! I still can't
believe that it is true (until the monthy bill comes due anyway) that I
own my own airplane. Ownership pride is a huge benefit of having your
own plane.
Anyway take your time with whatever decision you make. It is a buyers
market right now so you can do well with just about anything you buy.
Take care,
Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ
Cecil Chapman wrote:
> Well it was bound to happen sooner or later... Thinking/planning for the
> first plane to own.
>
> Right now I'm thinking of something along the lines of a used plane like the
> Cessna 172 or Cherokee 140. I had toyed with the notion of a Cessna 152,
> but I'm starting to think that a 4-place aircraft might be a good place to
> begin with.
>
> I'm figuring a price range of 35.5 to 55,000 for a good 172 or Cherokee 140
> is in the ballpark?
>
> Also, can anyone suggest a good book(s) / magazine articles on selecting a
> first plane (trying to avoid as many pitfalls as possible <g>).
>
Jon Kraus
> Keep in mind my opinion is "prejudiced", but how about a Beech Sundowner.
> You can get a well equipped Sundowner for your price range.
>
> Big plus is the creature comfort that the 172 or Cherokee does not offer.
>
> Allen
Allen,
Is that price with or without the major overhaul you had to do on yours
soon after purchase? :-) Just kidding I think the Sundowner is a
nice airplane...
A Lieberman
> Allen,
> Is that price with or without the major overhaul you had to do on yours
> soon after purchase? :-) Just kidding I think the Sundowner is a
> nice airplane...
Hey Jon,
Bought the plane for 38K and overhaul was 13,5K. So, 51.5K would fall in
the high end of Cecil's range.
Best thing about this is I know now how the engine has been broken in and
know it's been treated with TLC :-))
Allen
Jon Kraus
your bird since you bought her? Since our painful annual in April we
haven't had to do anything (thank God!! ) Currently 43H is down in
Georgia getting a S-tec 30 installed. We should be getting her back this
week. Keep writing about your IFR adventures. I love reading about them!!
Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ
Jack Allison
> Now about the ownership thing... You might want to look into a 2 or 3
> way partnership and get a nicer aircraft that you can split the
> maintenance and upgrades accross 2 or 3 checkbooks instead of just 1.
Ya Cecil, what Jon said! Granted, first look at what suits your mission
but it's pretty easy to jump up a step by having an additional partner.
For me this meant getting into a complex plane (which is what I really
wanted) by going to three partners vs. two.
> If you are not
> prepared to spend more after you purchase than when you were renting
> then you should just keep on renting. (If you don't believe me ask Jack
> Allison what his opinion is on renting verses buying.)
Huh, did someone mention my name? Come come now Jon, I really miss
those carefree rental days. No wiping bugs off the airplane, hoping
that everything works...hehe, ok, back to reality. Owning, IMHO, is way
better than renting. The intangible benefits of knowing exactly what
maintenance has been performed (and when), who flew last (and how they
fly), not having to schedule with a gazillion other people, etc. all add
up. Those things are hard to put a price on...as well as being able to
ask the kid watching planes at the airport "Hey, you want to sit in my
airplane?" Talk about being able to make his (and my) day. It's very cool.
Cecil...go pass your CP checkride the subscribe to TAP and ASO. Surf
around for any other favorite airplane websites and you can spend so
much time looking at airplanes online that your head will swim.
Seriously though, TAP and ASO were great sites for me as I could setup
e-mail alerts for specific make/model aircraft. That's how we found the
Arrow. You gotta be prepared to pull the trigger though. From the day
I received the e-mail about our Arrow until the day we flew it home from
Colorado was two weeks. Of course, we spent about six months looking
and making offers that fell through but that was all part of the adventure.
> Now there is nothing, I mean nothing better then heading out to the
> airport and climbing aboard an airplane that you OWN!! I still can't
> believe that it is true (until the monthy bill comes due anyway) that I
> own my own airplane. Ownership pride is a huge benefit of having your
> own plane.
Happens to me every time I open the hanger door. I hope to never take
it for granted that I've been blessed with the opportunity to fly and
own an airplane.
A Lieberman
> and I know you treat her good!! Have you had to do more maintenance on
> your bird since you bought her?
Hey Jon,
Only major thing that has cropped up was the pitot static system. Set me
back $1500 due to small leak in system and encoder failed the accuracy
test. Got the encoder overhauled and the leak fixed and that's the only
thing other then your normal oil change expense I have come across.
> haven't had to do anything (thank God!! ) Currently 43H is down in
> Georgia getting a S-tec 30 installed. We should be getting her back this
> week. Keep writing about your IFR adventures. I love reading about them!!
Hopefully, the week after next, I will have another IFR adventure. I am
planning a trip to Ohio on the 30th. I will go from MBO (Madison, MS) to
OWB (Owensboro KY) to 2G2 (Stuebenville OH). If time permits, I may make a
day trip for lunch to Westminister MD from 2G2.
I had my FAA medical, and while I got my medical certificate, the doc wants
me to get a couple of moles on my back looked at by a dermatologist, so I
have an appointment scheduled for the 30th. If nothing comes from that, I
will head to Ohio from the docs office.
So, I guess I am glad the doc was more thorough then just putting a mirror
under my nose *big smile*.
Allen
A Lieberman
> Huh, did someone mention my name? Come come now Jon, I really miss
> those carefree rental days. No wiping bugs off the airplane, hoping
> that everything works...hehe, ok, back to reality.
*big smile* I'd say even more so, I am hoping everything works every time
I fly! Nobody to turn to to fix it!
> Owning, IMHO, is way
> better than renting. The intangible benefits of knowing exactly what
> maintenance has been performed (and when), who flew last (and how they
> fly), not having to schedule with a gazillion other people, etc. all add
> up. Those things are hard to put a price on...as well as being able to
> ask the kid watching planes at the airport "Hey, you want to sit in my
> airplane?" Talk about being able to make his (and my) day. It's very cool.
Could not agree more! There is something special and being privileged on
being on the "inside of the fence".
> Happens to me every time I open the hanger door. I hope to never take
> it for granted that I've been blessed with the opportunity to fly and
> own an airplane.
Same for me whether it be owning or flying! I just did my 475 hour
yesterday.
Every flight is my first flight. I preflight, fly and "post flight" as if
it was my first flight!
Allen
Alan Gerber
> Every flight is my first flight. I preflight, fly and "post flight" as if
> it was my first flight!
As long as you don't *land* as if it was your first flight!
--
Alan Gerber
gerber AT panix DOT com
A Lieberman
>> Every flight is my first flight. I preflight, fly and "post flight" as if
>> it was my first flight!
>
> As long as you don't *land* as if it was your first flight!
AMEN! :-))
Allen
FlyingFin
Antoine de Saint-Exupery quote, and own a first edition of "Wind Sand
and Stars." If you read it first, THEN read "The little prince" you
will be amazed at where most of the Little Prince came from, real life
experiences turned into a fantasy. Wonderful. Wish I could read it in
the French and appreciate it, but need more French lessons I'm afraid.
Having owned Both a Cherokee 180 (N7234W owned 1/2 for 6 years with
John Baker M.D., now owned entirely by my friend John ) and a Cessna
172/ 180 HP, (present plane N725EC) I think I enjoy the 172 more, for
the cooler cockpit from shaded windows. The matter is simple however,
Fly Both, then decide for yourself. Get at least 160 HP in the
Cherokee however or you have basically a 2 seater. The 180 is a real
cross country airplane and surprisingly the fuel consumption is not all
that much greater, about 9 GPH when leaned out properly, and not
pushing the RPM. I like 2250 for cruise power settings with the
Lycoming 180 with a fixed pitch prop.
I bought N725EC for a very reasonable price. Why was price so low? It
had those AWFUL words, DAMAGE HISTORY attached to it. Don't let that
scare you away. Charlie was fully restored to airworthy condition,
including a complete teardown of the engine which only had 50 hours on
it at the time of previous owner's accident. He ran out of fuel, made
a safe landing with 2 passengers, then hit an erosion ditch and nosed
over to the full stopped and upside down position. The repair bill to
restore plane was more than I paid for it. I'd buy it again! The
Textron Lycoming engine was basically a factory remanufacture zero time
engine when we bought her.
pix of plane on our website www.otgadventures.com under flying section.
Shop and negotiate.
We hired a mechanic to inspect the plane pre-purchase. His fee was
$100 for 2 hours of good looking and checking. We were able to reduce
the purchase price by $800 after showing the seller's agent the defect
list. Minor stuff, but $pendy as they say in Alaska.
We've had Charlie for 3 years now, and the engine is a joy. The plane
needs some interior upgrades, which we're planning, but starting with a
solid airframe (repaired or otherwise) and a good engine is key. Now
we have a platform on which we won't be wasting money when we add new
radios, interior fabrics etc.
drop a note if you have a chance pabo...@yahoo.com.nospam
Bob Finlay
Physician Assistant
OTG Adventures Inc.