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The new Antares with bigger batteries
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Eric Greenwell
Oct 16, 2021, 10:05:21 AM10/16/21
to
(from Eric Greenwell) Waremark posted the following in an old and very large thread. I
think it deserves it's own thread, so I'm starting this one. Waremark's post from the old
thread is copied here:
--Waremark Oct 16, 2021 4:10 am -----------------------------------------------
I saw a recent YouTube video of a test flight of an Antares 21E and read about it on the
Lange Aviation website. The website claims a climb potential with an optional larger
battery of 5,600 m, a max climb rate of approx 900 fpm, sub 10 secs time from activation
to climb (that was from the video), and 9 hours charge time for a full charge (on the
video Lange says 3.5 hours to charge from 50%). I didn't see what the empty weight was
with the larger battery, with the standard battery the stats suggested a wider range of
wing loading in both directions than my Arcus M with two on board. Best glide was quoted
at 58 to 1.
Finally, that is an electric self launcher with an endurance greater than I have ever needed.
If I could be persuaded that the fire risk and reliability are no worse than for an ICE
powered self launcher, I would find the rest of the specs very persuasive. Does anyone
know whether this glider is actually in production, and any more about it?
Mark Burton
--Dan Daly Oct 16, 2021 4:56am ------------------------------------------------
Recent test in Nordic Gliding
https://nordicgliding-com.translate.goog/test-lange-antares-21-e/?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=nui%2Celem&fbclid=IwAR04nZGUDNOXgiwxrcK2sVQrA3YDAyYy6dfODBEY_xXFFqa80q8A34C-KTo
think it deserves it's own thread, so I'm starting this one. Waremark's post from the old
thread is copied here:
--Waremark Oct 16, 2021 4:10 am -----------------------------------------------
I saw a recent YouTube video of a test flight of an Antares 21E and read about it on the
Lange Aviation website. The website claims a climb potential with an optional larger
battery of 5,600 m, a max climb rate of approx 900 fpm, sub 10 secs time from activation
to climb (that was from the video), and 9 hours charge time for a full charge (on the
video Lange says 3.5 hours to charge from 50%). I didn't see what the empty weight was
with the larger battery, with the standard battery the stats suggested a wider range of
wing loading in both directions than my Arcus M with two on board. Best glide was quoted
at 58 to 1.
Finally, that is an electric self launcher with an endurance greater than I have ever needed.
If I could be persuaded that the fire risk and reliability are no worse than for an ICE
powered self launcher, I would find the rest of the specs very persuasive. Does anyone
know whether this glider is actually in production, and any more about it?
Mark Burton
--Dan Daly Oct 16, 2021 4:56am ------------------------------------------------
Recent test in Nordic Gliding
https://nordicgliding-com.translate.goog/test-lange-antares-21-e/?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=nui%2Celem&fbclid=IwAR04nZGUDNOXgiwxrcK2sVQrA3YDAyYy6dfODBEY_xXFFqa80q8A34C-KTo
Eric Greenwell
Oct 16, 2021, 10:14:12 AM10/16/21
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are less likely to burn than other chemistries. They have switched to smaller Li-ion cells
in the far more common 21700 size (21mm diameter, 70 mm length). The article Dan
references shows the venting and discusses other mitigation in the event of a cell fire.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
Moshe Braner
Oct 16, 2021, 10:31:07 AM10/16/21
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On 10/16/2021 10:14 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>
> Previously, the Antares gliders used physically large Saft LiFePO4 (aka
> Life) cells, which are less likely to burn than other chemistries. They
> have switched to smaller Li-ion cells in the far more common 21700 size
> (21mm diameter, 70 mm length). The article Dan references shows the
> venting and discusses other mitigation in the event of a cell fire.
>
Sorry to hear they switched away from the safer LFP. LFP (LIFE,
>>
> Previously, the Antares gliders used physically large Saft LiFePO4 (aka
> Life) cells, which are less likely to burn than other chemistries. They
> have switched to smaller Li-ion cells in the far more common 21700 size
> (21mm diameter, 70 mm length). The article Dan references shows the
> venting and discusses other mitigation in the event of a cell fire.
>
LiFePO4) used to have much higher prices and lower energy density than
the fire-prone Li-Ion chemistries, but in recent years major
improvements happened on both of those fronts. Some electric car
manufacturers are now using LFP batteries.
Muttley
Oct 16, 2021, 10:33:41 AM10/16/21
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It is not quite clear if Waremark is asking about the continuation of the ARCUS E
which was of course finished engine and battery wise by Lange Aviation.
In view of the new Battery Developments it could be interesting to revive this project,
but I am not sure that there is still a co-operation between SH and Lange.
which was of course finished engine and battery wise by Lange Aviation.
In view of the new Battery Developments it could be interesting to revive this project,
but I am not sure that there is still a co-operation between SH and Lange.
waremark
Oct 16, 2021, 10:58:53 AM10/16/21
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Christoph Barniske
Oct 16, 2021, 4:23:24 PM10/16/21
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Before the recent change, Lange used SAFT VL41M cells, which were Li-Ion type (Lithium Nickel oxide and not LiFePO4 as previously stated). The datasheet is available at https://www.custompower.com/documents/VL41M.pdf. I think Lange has proven that such cells can be operated safely in aviation.
Eric Greenwell
Oct 16, 2021, 5:24:02 PM10/16/21
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On 10/16/2021 1:23 PM, Christoph Barniske wrote:
> Before the recent change, Lange used SAFT VL41M cells, which were Li-Ion type (Lithium Nickel oxide and not LiFePO4 as previously stated). The datasheet is available at https://www.custompower.com/documents/VL41M.pdf. I think Lange has proven that such cells can be operated safely in aviation.
>
I'm pleased to learn I was wrong about LiFe batteries in the Antares! Lange's fire-free
> Before the recent change, Lange used SAFT VL41M cells, which were Li-Ion type (Lithium Nickel oxide and not LiFePO4 as previously stated). The datasheet is available at https://www.custompower.com/documents/VL41M.pdf. I think Lange has proven that such cells can be operated safely in aviation.
>
experience with Saft cylindrical Li-ion cells shows how safe they can be, and their
selection of high volume 21700 cells (2 billion a year) indicates they think these smaller
cells can be at least as safe. Now we have Schleicher, Jonkers, and Antares using this
type of cell in retractable motor sailplanes. It's almost like a pattern...
Aldo Cernezzi
Oct 18, 2021, 11:24:51 AM10/18/21
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AFAIK, certification of aircraft battery sets in EASA countries, now requires a destructive test which should prove well enough that the battery set will survive the fire of one cell, without:
A) other surrounding cells to catch fire, and
B) poisonous gases being able to reach the cockpit thanks to appropriate exhausts.
As a former Antares owner, and a driver of an electric car (daily, but not on gliding tours as it can't legally tow), I feel quite safe with a well developed and certified electric propulsion system.
Aldo Cernezzi
www.voloavela.it
A) other surrounding cells to catch fire, and
B) poisonous gases being able to reach the cockpit thanks to appropriate exhausts.
As a former Antares owner, and a driver of an electric car (daily, but not on gliding tours as it can't legally tow), I feel quite safe with a well developed and certified electric propulsion system.
Aldo Cernezzi
www.voloavela.it
Eric Greenwell
Oct 18, 2021, 12:19:23 PM10/18/21
to
expect the retractable engine self-launchers I know about, all of which use cylindrical
cells with a low risk of igniting adjacent cells, will be able to meet the requirements
without much difficulty.
Moshe Braner
Oct 18, 2021, 12:41:48 PM10/18/21
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Dan Marotta
Oct 18, 2021, 2:13:59 PM10/18/21
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They might catch fire? Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
Dan
5J
Dan
5J
Aldo Cernezzi
Oct 18, 2021, 8:01:20 PM10/18/21
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Not e-cars, but my specific model. The Nissan Leaf can't tow. The Tesla S can't either, by the way.
The Tesla X can tow 2.200kg, the "3" 920kg, the Y 1588kg. It depends on the documentation which has been presented by the manufacturer, and the dimensions of brakes and attachment points.
Each single make/model thus has specific towing limitations.
And the the tow-hook and harnesses are certified for the specific model (Hence, fitting a tow-bar can cost between 700 and 2000 euro)
Aldo
The Tesla X can tow 2.200kg, the "3" 920kg, the Y 1588kg. It depends on the documentation which has been presented by the manufacturer, and the dimensions of brakes and attachment points.
Each single make/model thus has specific towing limitations.
And the the tow-hook and harnesses are certified for the specific model (Hence, fitting a tow-bar can cost between 700 and 2000 euro)
Aldo
Christoph Barniske
Oct 19, 2021, 12:53:05 PM10/19/21
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I know the 18T and 20E versions. Both are nice gliders, well built, with good performance and great handling. The electric engine system is in a class of its own. It was not without troubles, but actually the 2-stroke sustainer version had even more issues in the beginning.
What has limited the success of Antares models in Europe in the past was not technical troubles but rather the lack of a type certificate for all models except the 20E. There is no experimental category for such planes in EASA countries. The 18, 21 and 23m versions still operate under a permit to fly with the 18S being available since 2006. EASA is limiting the number of gliders that are allowed to operate under a PTF, thus limiting sales in Europe before a TCDS was granted.
What has limited the success of Antares models in Europe in the past was not technical troubles but rather the lack of a type certificate for all models except the 20E. There is no experimental category for such planes in EASA countries. The 18, 21 and 23m versions still operate under a permit to fly with the 18S being available since 2006. EASA is limiting the number of gliders that are allowed to operate under a PTF, thus limiting sales in Europe before a TCDS was granted.
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