Grand Teton Crash

[Ernst]

Carnage continues, who is next?
https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/article_87046564-e466-535c-a04c-b3918ec7dcb9.html

It is sickening, what can we do to stop this?
If it is experience, we would talk about other things.

Thinking about Kristine and her passenger David...

Ernst

[Michael Opitz]

Ouch... That makes two from the Cloudstreet video. Condolences to
the families involved, and also Bill Hill and Mark Mocho...

RO

[Nick Kennedy]

So sorry to read about this accident.
Does anyone know about the weather conditions at the time of the accident?
I'm curious if it was windy or stormy.

The NTSB report that came out on the Glider Bob Saunders accident in Telluride Colorado put the blame on the strong summertime stormy weather.
Apparently he was overpowered by a collapsing storm cell above him. They indicated they found nothing wrong with his Stemme motorglider.

[kirk.stant]

Carnage? No, a tragic accident.

Look up the definition of Carnage. Using that term demeans the memory of the unfortunate victims.

Would you have said the same if they had died in a car accident?

Kirk

[Bob T]

Nick,

The day and time glider Bob went in, Loy and I were in Aztec and observed what I thought must have been the most intense / tallest OD I had ever seen over the San Jans, and figured it was probably between Purgatory and Telluride, thinking I was sure glad I wasn't flying there then. When we heard of the crash, I felt pretty sure Bob must have hit a severe downdraft shear. I'd feel a pretty good guess would be sudden down wind shear in this latest crash.
19

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Agreed, sad day anytime we lose humans doing something.
Tough on the families and friends.
In the US, also tough on anyone even remotely close since some will be "lawyering up" to see who pays, even if was just an unfortunate incident.

Condolences to everyone affected.

[Steve Koerner]

Very very sad to read of this accident.

This report has the accident occurring at 12:00.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=212026


From Weather Underground, wind on June 9 at 11:56 at Driggs was 21 mph gusting to 25 mph, sky clear. Wind in the nearby mountains at 10,800 ft might have been greater and might have been more gusty:

https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KDIJ/2018/6/9/DailyHistory.html?req_city=&req_state=&req_statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=

[Ron Gleason]

Steve, I looked around online for any weather stations on the mountain peaks, mainly Snotel, but could not find any or they are offline for the non-winter months. The station on top of the tram Jackson Hole was not reporting and I am not sure if it has historical data.

Here in Northern UT we had strong pre-frontal S/SW winds before the passing of a cold front from the NW Saturday night.

Sad, sad situation

Ron Gleason

[Renny]

There is some info on the weather in this article....

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/article_1fd2db35-1c84-5e6f-8021-605451298d23.html

[George Haeh]

In my glider TAS and Groundspeed along with the usual IGC file data are fed to my Oudie in one second intervals. That data can be used to quantify longitudinal and vertical wind shears.

Does anybody know what would be recorded in the accident glider?

[Bob T]

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 8:08:23 PM UTC-6, George Haeh wrote:
> In my glider TAS and Groundspeed along with the usual IGC file data are fed to my Oudie in one second intervals. That data can be used to quantify longitudinal and vertical wind shears.
>
> Does anybody know what would be recorded in the accident glider?

Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have moved on.

http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/SoaringRx/2013-01-Rogue-Air-Oct2014-p20-29_Bob_Thompson.pdf

19

[Renny]

Bob - Your article is excellent and I do believe it may explain a lot when it comes to some accidents and incidents in recent years. I have no idea if it was a factor in this terrible accident at the Grand Teton National Park, but we have all heard about (and perhaps personally experienced) accidents and incidents in which the cause of the "upset" could really never be definitively determined. I believe that in many cases something really out of the ordinary "happened" and I also believe that "Rogue Air," that no one ever "saw," may be the real cause of quite a few accidents. Thanks for doing all of the research and for writing it! Be careful out there! Renny

[BobW]

On 6/15/2018 2:03 PM, Bob T wrote:
<Snip...>

>
> Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time
> researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few
> years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up
> on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air
> with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised
> the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their
> time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have
> moved on.
>
> http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/SoaringRx/2013-01-Rogue-Air-Oct2014-p20-29_Bob_Thompson.pdf

Excellent article with 'some darn good pictures' as well! Well worth Joe
Glider Pilot's reading time and continuing ponderation. I base my assertion on
having encountered 'rogue air' a number of times myself in gliders, and being
fortunate enough to not have bent or broken anything (or died, humorless
laugh) in those encounters...though two instances were 'somewhat in doubt' in
my mind *while* they were happening. Eyeball defocusing turbulence and 3,000+
fpm sink will definitely get your attention.

Bob W.

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[caryandre...@gmail.com]

https://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/en/library/dont-smack-the-mountain

[alc...@gmail.com]

On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:31:51 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> The correct information on articles are JJ Sinclair's excellent article "Don't Smack the Mountain", and Henry Combs article entitled "That Beautiful Mountain and Her Sinister Trap: A Possible Explanation for Some Unexplained Ridge-Soaring Crashes". Not sure why i couldn't remember and thus transposed. Both are a wealth of information.

Here's some Links to those two articles:

The first is by John Sinclair, well known Northern California cross country and competition soaring pilot, sailplane builder and repair man (the article is at the end of the Valley Soaring Newsletter):
http://valleysoaring.net/pk/windsock/2007-9/1of2%20-%20Sep%2007-v21.pdf


The second is by now legendary soaring pilot and one of the engineers who designed the A-12, YF-12 and SR-71, Henry Combs:
https://ee.stanford.edu/~hellman/soaring/Combs.pdf

[mdfa...@gmail.com]

The "Rogue Air" article has a picture of what Bob T calls a "spinner". I've heard them called Mustache clouds and saw (what I assume was) one just the other day. Oddly, one end had a loop in it so it looked more like a curved sewing needle than a mustache. It had me wondering how in the world it got that shape. No pictures as I was driving on an expressway.

[Renny]

The NTSB prelim report has now been posted....
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20180611X95129&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=FA