Bipolar/Schizoaffective Disorder and Soaring
DL152279546231
Schizoaffective disorder seek out soaring because of it's lack of medical
certification requirements. Also, I am wondering what options there are to
taking medications which state, 'to avoid heatstroke it is important to not
become overheated through excercise etc.' I am not currently flying but getting
closer to taking up soaring
Liam Finley
Are you suggesting soaring has a special attraction to the mentally
ill? Actually that would explain alot.
This could be the big marketing opportunity the SSA has been waiting
for.
Shawn Curry
They could get tie in adds with Depakote.
Doug Hoffman
The decision of whether or not you are physically and mentally fit to fly
gliders is basically yours. I experience chronic daily headaches (migraine
variant) and take several medications to control the condition. There have
been days when I knew I was not "fit to fly" and I didn't. Usually it is
not a problem, thankfully. But I believe that especially those of us with
these kinds of issues must be very careful in our "fit to fly"
decision-making.
Regards and good luck,
-Doug
n...@null.com
> I am wondering how many others suffer from a mental disorder such as Bipolar or
> Schizoaffective disorder seek out soaring because of it's lack of medical
> certification requirements.
I don't know, but I hope it works out for you. I guess it goes without
saying that flying on a high or a low would be best avoided.
> Also, I am wondering what options there are to taking medications which
> state, 'to avoid heatstroke it is important to not become overheated
> through excercise etc.'
Hang gliding is my thing so my opinions on fixed-wing flying is
questionable. I read a paper to the effect that dehydration (which
will exacerbate heatstroke) is common in long fixed-wing flights - so take
plenty of water. I don't know where (i.e. what climate) you plan on flying
in, but heat and altitude have never gone together in my experience.
Perhaps you should ask your doctor, who should know quite how critical the
injuction to avoid heatstroke is and whether any of your medications might
affect your reactions, vision or balance.
> I am not currently flying but getting closer to taking up soaring
Take care,
vne
Brian Iten
medical section as the last time I checked, all medications
for treating Bi-polar syndrome are illegal in regards
to flying. I, unfortunatly, know a little about bi-polar
syndrom from my ex wife. When I went to take my medical
for power, I asked the examiner about those medications
and he said that most of them are also used to treat
seizures. If you are in an accident or give the FAA
any reason to want a blood or urine sample and they
find any of those drugs in your system, I would hate
to see what they would do besides pull your ticket.
The other question I have to some of the CFI's and
DE's out there is I can't remember what it said on
my form (forgot the number) prior to taking my flight
exam but isn't there something on the bottom that states
you are in good medical condition and are not on any
medications??????
Brian
7MB
Shannon Parker
And this is from first hand experience of Bipolar disorder.
Can you afford NOT to fly with a bipolar disorder?? Flying offers relief
that you will not EVER receive from chemicals. The sense of satisfaction and
acheivement, the indescribable joy it will bring you will be so healing that
you will not to be able to do without.
It will bring you focus in a way that cannot be acheived in any other way
that I'm aware of. It puts the world into perspective and teaches to manage
potential risks and dangerous situations that make managing mood swings etc
seem a simple task.
The only times I have to resort to chemical symptomatic relief now is when I
don't fly. Like two years ago when I broke my leg on a bloody motorcycle.
The added bonus is that at the end of the day, you'll be hanging out with
some of the craziest nuts you'll EVER meet. ;-)
Like me. Keep taking you current medication. But I promise that if you work
hard enough one day on top of the stack at cloud base you'll get one of
those moments of clarity that will furnish you with the beginnings of
strength that will change that bipolar monkey forever.
See you in the big blue one day.
Shannon
No amount of money will bring you the happiness and joy that flying does.
Get it into perspective. Don't waste time.
Doug Hoffman
> The other question I have to some of the CFI's and
> DE's out there is I can't remember what it said on
> my form (forgot the number) prior to taking my flight
> exam but isn't there something on the bottom that states
> you are in good medical condition
> and are not on any medications??????
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now that really doesn't make much sense, does it? For example, if one is
taking Lipitor to control cholesterol the FAA is going to ground you? I
don't think so.
Regards,
-Doug
Brian Iten
department if you are a member of AOPA. I would need
to do some research on this but taking a wild guess,
if you are bi-polar, I don't think you are allowed
to fly even if you think you are alright. The reasons
should be simple for this, and like I said, I will
do a little research before putting this in stone.
Bi-polare dissorder is a chemical imbalance in the
brain. It causes highs and lows which are interpreted
as euphoria and depression. Euphoria could be construed
as 'Hey everyone, watch this' and you make a mistake
because you feel like you are invincible. On the depression
stage, I think the FAA would be worried about you being
so depressed that you stuff yourself and your glider
into the ground.
Be really careful as I think that someone who is bi-polar
is not capable of saying that they are medically fit
to fly. Just my opinion so don't go jumping down my
throat...... I will try to find concrete information
later today.
Brian
Brian Iten
section 4, it states that Bi-Polar syndrome is disqualifying
for a medical. I know, we as glider pilots don't need
a medical but this is interesting especially if you
are thinking about trying to get a medical to fly power.
It is just food for thought.
Under section 9, classes of medical certificates, it
states the following:
Glider and Free Balloon Pilots are not required to
hold a medical certificate of any class. To be issued
Glider or Free Balloon Airman Certificates, the applicant
must certify that he or she has no known physical defect
that makes him or her unable to pilot a glider or free
balloon. This certification is made at the local FAA
Flight Standards District Office.
Now, my question for you is that how can you certify
that you have no known physical defect if you know
you are bi-polar and you could not get a medical for
flying power because it is considered a failing contributor?
If you are on medication for bi-polar syndrome, you
are failing to comply with the FAR's as those substances
are banned by the FAA.
I am not looking to get into a shouting match. What
I would like to do with this thread is make people
aware of what is legal and against the FAR's. Nothing
more, nothing less, just food for thought....
Brian
ADP
Allan
DL152279546231
take my medicines daily and I do...
But, I do need some clarification.
A medical certificate is not required for soaring is what I have been told
reguardless of medications or illness provided the pilot feels he can fly
safely.
I have never heard of a list of medications which bar a pilot from flying
gliders...
However I have done some research and read the FAA won't even issue a medical
to an applicant on unipolar depression so I did not plan to apply to face
certain rejection
Also, however, I am wondering if these psychotropic medications don't cause
problems with heatstroke and dehydration
I was hoping maybe an annonymous person would step forward and say they were
flying and it was not a problem
Lithium, Effexor, and Zyprexa are the ones I have taken for over two years
Also, by the way, my Pyschiatrist said getting back into flying would be an
excellent anti-depressant
ADP
gliders is 14 CFR 61.53(b).
Allan
"DL152279546231" <dl15227...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040611180215...@mb-m22.aol.com...
> By the way my Psychiatrist is a pilot and feels I am safe to fly provided
I
> take my medicines daily and I do...
>
...Snip...
Andy Durbin
Lipitor is allowed according to FAA drug list available to members at
AOPA's website. It may be surprising how many drugs pushed in US TV
adverts are not allowed.
The fact that US glider pilots don't need a medical certificate
doesn't seem to alter the applicability of the FAA drugs list. Ref
61.53 and 91.17.
Andy
Jack
> By the way my Psychiatrist is a pilot and feels I am safe to fly provided I
> take my medicines daily and I do....
> Also, by the way, my Pyschiatrist said getting back into flying would be an
> excellent anti-depressant.
It works that way for most of us, I'm sure, but if you are looking for
permission, I doubt you will find it here.
Go the official route and take your lumps, or involve your Psychiatrist and your
CFI-G in a constructive partnership that can perhaps get you airborne, and see
how things work out from there.
I wish you the best.
Jack
B. Iten
> taking Lipitor to control cholesterol the FAA is going to ground you? I
> don't think so.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Doug
Ummm, Doug, you might want to check what is allowed and not allowed as
Lipitor is NOT a banned substance as per AOPA's medication sheet so
there is no reason for you to ground yourself if you are on such
medication......
B. Iten
Keep taking you current medication. But I promise that if you work
> hard enough one day on top of the stack at cloud base you'll get one of
> those moments of clarity that will furnish you with the beginnings of
> strength that will change that bipolar monkey forever.
> See you in the big blue one day.
> Shannon
>
> No amount of money will bring you the happiness and joy that flying does.
> Get it into perspective. Don't waste time
Shannon,
Am I correct at saying that you fly outside of the United States?
Brian
n...@null.com
> By the way my Psychiatrist is a pilot and feels I am safe to fly provided I
> take my medicines daily and I do...
>
> But, I do need some clarification.
> A medical certificate is not required for soaring is what I have been told
> reguardless of medications or illness provided the pilot feels he can fly
> safely.
>
> I have never heard of a list of medications which bar a pilot from flying
> gliders...
>
> However I have done some research and read the FAA won't even issue a medical
> to an applicant on unipolar depression so I did not plan to apply to face
> certain rejection
>
> Also, however, I am wondering if these psychotropic medications don't cause
> problems with heatstroke and dehydration
Perhaps the question you should ask, is "how hot and dehydrated will I get
whilst flying" and "how much exercise is involved in ground-handling
gliders". Most people on the list would be able to answer these questions
for you, and you can take this information to your doctor who will be able
to tell you whether it is likely to be a problem.
> I was hoping maybe an annonymous person would step forward and say they were
> flying and it was not a problem
>
> Lithium, Effexor, and Zyprexa are the ones I have taken for over two years
All of the patient information for these drugs cautions that they can
cause dizziness and / or drowsiness. They caution against driving if these
symptoms are apparent, and I think this would apply to gliding x2 (or
more).
> Also, by the way, my Pyschiatrist said getting back into flying would be
> an excellent anti-depressant
vne
DL152279546231
>whilst flying" and "how much exercise is involved in ground-handling
>gliders". Most people on the list would be able to answer these questions
>for you, and you can take this information to your doctor who will be able
>to tell you whether it is likely to be a problem.
>
I think you (and several others) have hit on an excellent idea. I have been
reluctant to join my local club because I have only had two rides and they
require a substantial financial commitment, initiation and monthly dues. I
can't just go rent a glider for a few flights, they require membership. I
wonder if they would allow me to come hang out and wing-run, and ground handle
in the heat. This would test the heatstroke and I could see how the people
are... If everyone is a jerk I probably wouldn't want to go anyway... Maybe I
could be ballast for the 2 place trainer if one of the seats is empty...
I do plan to read 14 CFR 61.53(b) however and may drop SSA an E-mail about the
subject
DL152279546231
>gliders is 14 CFR 61.53(b).
>
>Allan
So now I am still confused. Do I read this FAR to say if you know you have a
medical condition but don't think it will interfere with your flying, fly. OR,
if you have a medical condition which would make you ineligible for a medical
certificate you cannot fly even in an operation not requiring a medical
certificate...
(b) Operations that do not require a medical certificate. For operations
provided for in §61.23(b) of this part, a person shall not act as pilot in
command, or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember, while
that person knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would
make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner.
B. Iten
ago about the use of medications that treat bi-polar syndrome and
taking them while operating an aircraft or glider. He was not 100%
sure on the ruling even though it is stated on the FAA's medical pages
that those drugs used to treat bi-polar syndrome are not allowed. He
then in turn contacted someone in OK city with the FAA and they told
him and I quote "If the person is on medications that are banned by
the FAA, they need to ground themselves for 30 days before flying".
The doctor then asked "What about flying gliders". The lady in OK City
said that "it did not matter what they were flying as you are not
allowed to operate an aircraft while taking medications banned by the
FAA".
If you want to fly and think this is a load of crap, contact your
local FAA medical examiner and ask them. I really hope that the people
on this page who say it is alright to take these medications and
operate an aircraft as PIC don't live in the United States. If you do,
and you make a mistake, you could screw everything up for everyone
else. Get the facts from the horses mouth which happens to be the FAA
or better yet, if you are in the United States and are a member of
AOPA, contact their legal office and ask them.
dl15227...@aol.com (DL152279546231) wrote in message news:<20040611180215...@mb-m22.aol.com>...
Bullwinkle
I have followed this thread with interest. Although I am not an AME, I work
with pilots on FAA Medical Certification issues.
How 61.53 applies to glider pilots contains large gray areas, on which the
FAA has not provided clear guidance. You'll get different answers depending
on who you ask: AMCD, FSDO, DPE, etc.
Here's a point to remember: Don't force the FAA to clarify their guidance
RE: 61.53 and glider pilots! If you ask the question, you'll get an answer,
and probably one you won't like. Preserve your ability to apply judgment,
and leave it vague.
That stated, the issue here is not the meds for bipolar. Yes, all meds used
for bipolar are DQ (like the ones mentioned below). More important though is
the diagnosis itself. Part 67 is a very confusing regulation, and difficult
to read, but both it and the Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners (last
revised Sept 2003) make clear that there are 15 absolute disqualifying
diagnoses, one of which is bipolar disorder. Just about everything else that
they DQ for falls under an umbrella clause which gives them the authority to
DQ for things other than the 15 absolute DQ's.
As a CFI-G, when someone who has lost their medical asks about flying
gliders, I tell them that if they have one of the 15, they probably have
reason to know that they are not safe to operate a glider, especially if the
FAA has formally denied them certification. If it is not one of the 15, it's
probably their decision, but we discuss the details. Meds are also
discussed.
If a pilot with a well-diagnosed case of bipolar disorder came to a club or
commercial operation at which I was working as a CFI-G, I would refuse to
fly with that person, and recommend to the operators that that person not be
allowed to fly there.
Sorry, just my professional opinion.
Bullwinkle
On 6/11/04 9:53 PM, in article
bd92af21.04061...@posting.google.com, "B. Iten"
Doug Hoffman
> Here is the scoop. I spoke with my medical flight examiner some time
> ago about the use of medications that treat bi-polar syndrome and
> taking them while operating an aircraft or glider. He was not 100%
> sure on the ruling even though it is stated on the FAA's medical pages
> that those drugs used to treat bi-polar syndrome are not allowed.
Brian,
I am having trouble finding this FAA list of banned medications. Could you
point me to it? A URL or specific section in the FAR would help.
Thanks.
-Doug
Bullwinkle
Doug,
You're having trouble finding the FAA medication list, because it doesn't
exist. Various groups, such as AOPA and Virtual Flight Surgeon's at
http://www.aviationmedicine.com , have UNOFFICIAL lists of approved and
disapproved medications, but they are swags which don't bear the approval of
the FAA. All such unofficial lists contain errors, because the FAA policies
are in such a constant state of re-review.
The FAA won't publish such a list because their internal, secret, but
official list changes so frequently (new drugs to either be approved or
banned; old previously approved drugs with newly found side effects, which
are now banned; etc).
Groups trying to publish such lists do so by submitting a waiver request
for, say, Zestril (a blood pressure medication). When it comes back
approved, they put zestril on the list. Then they submit someone for
depression with, say, Zoloft. It comes back disapproved, and they put Zoloft
on the no-go list. Over time, a rough approximation of FAA medication policy
is built up, but it is never 100% accurate.
Hope this clears things up.
Bullwinkle
On 6/12/04 3:24 AM, in article BCF043FD.F4E%dhof...@journey.com, "Doug
Vaughn
> >The controlling and ONLY FAR you need to consider medically while flying
> >gliders is 14 CFR 61.53(b).
> >
> >Allan
>
> So now I am still confused. Do I read this FAR to say if you know you have a
> medical condition but don't think it will interfere with your flying, fly. OR,
> if you have a medical condition which would make you ineligible for a medical
> certificate you cannot fly even in an operation not requiring a medical
> certificate...
You should be seeing a huge grey area, perhaps one big enough to fly a
glider through, perhaps not. I flew gliders for years whilst taking a "banned"
medication. IMHO I did so legally and safely because research told me that the
FAA was waivering that drug and that condition as long as certain medical tests
were done; tests that I had already done more than once. My doctor and I were
in agreement that it was OK for me to fly. Furthermore, it would have been
difficult for the FAA (or an insurance company) to say I was violating 61.53(b)
when the FAA was routinely granting waivers for exactly that same condition.
Later, this was all verified when I decided to fly SEL and actually went through
the bureaucratic hocus-pocus to get the waiver and the medical. Are they
waivering your condition and your medications? I don't know, but I'll bet that
AOPA could help you find out.
If the FAA is absolutely not waivering anybody with your condition and/or
anybody taking the drugs you take, I have to reluctantly say that it is probably
best for you to keep your feet on the ground.
Vaughn
Doug Hoffman
that this whole topic is a very grey area (that topic being piloting gliders
and medical conditions and medications and so forth).
My work involves dealing with US and state government regulations in a
totally different discipline (motor vehicle emissions), but my experience
there has also been the government regs are often very unclear and subject
to a great deal of interpretation.
Off this topic but sort of related: I know this is stating the obvious, but
I'll do it anyway. Even if someone has no illness and is taking no
medications, it could very well be that at some given times they are not
"fit to fly". Reasons include mental duress due to work or personal
reasons, lack of sleep, and so forth. I'll not get into the old age issue
as I believe that has been adequately covered on r.a.s. before.
Thanks again.
-Doug
n...@null.com
> doesn't seem to alter the applicability of the FAA drugs list. Ref
> 61.53 and 91.17.
You can drive whilst using all the medications the OP mentioned, if you
judge that they do not make you feel dizzy or drowsy.
I can see why the barriers are set higher for powered aircraft than for
drivers - I'm not sure that it follows that they should be set equally
high for glider pilots. For example, gliders tend to fly further from
major airports and over less populated terrain.
In contrast it's pretty easy to take out 5 people if you mess up whilst
driving.
Just speculating - I don't suppose it makes any difference in the eyes of
the law.
vne
Bill Daniels
> Still it seems a group such as the SSA would have had to have run into the
> question so often from power pilots having been denied medicals FAA would
have
> had to give an answer.
>
> Started a new thread on the topic by the way to broaden the question to
any
> drug/condition
I have asked this question of senior AME's and the answer is that there is
no difference in medical standards, just in the means of certifying those
standards are met. A glider pilot may "self-certify" but a power pilot
needs an AME to do the certification. If a pilot knows or has reason to
know that a condition exists that would prevent the issuance of a 3rd class
medical then self-certification is not an option.
We glider pilots have a major privilege in self-certification. It is not
too much of a reach to say that if the privilege is abused, we may lose it.
Bill Daniels
ADP
If you are suggesting that a glider pilot, in order to fly, must "self
certify" that he or she meets
the requirements of a class III physical, it may be the dumbest thing that
I've ever heard.
Even dumber than doing spin training at 800 ft AGL. (Which now seems to
have been rescinded, thank goodness.)
Note that I am not saying that you are dumb, merely that you are saying dumb
things.
The guiding regulation is 14 CFR 61.53(b) and yes, 91.17 applies.
Your AME is incorrect; you do not have to "self certify" anything, you
merely must abide by 61.53(b).
If you were required to meet the medical rules of a Class III physical, the
FARs would say so.
That means that, if you have a cold and can't clear your ears, you shouldn't
fly. If you have cut your hand
and are unable to handle the controls, you shouldn't fly. If you have
multiple personality disorder and your personality of the day is suicidal,
you shouldn't fly.
Note how 61.53(b) differs substantially from 61.53(a). It differs for a
reason you, the pilot, make the determination that you are fit to fly, not
your AME, not the FAA and, thankfully, not those of you who choose to
rewrite the regulations to conform to whatever predjudice you have at the
moment.
The CARs, FARs and now CFRs were conceived of as being permissive, that is,
if it is not expressly forbidden, it is presumed to be OK to do. If you
have a rating and/or pilot license of any kind, it is presumed that you
intend not to kill yourself or others.
So be careful out there, don't go rewriting the regulations and don't give
the FAA any reason to reexamine the regulations as they stand.
Allan
Paul Lynch
violate the rules flying with one the specifically prohibited conditions
(bi-polar disease), medicated or not. Pretty simple to figure out.
PK
"ADP" <adpratt(remove)@charter.net> wrote in message
news:10cn132...@corp.supernews.com...
ADP
applies to glider pilots.
Allan
MEDICATION INFORMATION: This page was last updated April 11, 2004
The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration does not publish a list of
"approved" medications. We have provided an updated list of medications the
FAA commonly authorizes for use during flight, plus restrictions on
medication use and a list of the medications the FAA does not normally
approve airmen to use. For detailed descriptions of each of the categories
described below and the associated medical conditions they treat, please see
the VFS Medical Information Center. For information from the FDA and other
sources on medications, adverse effects, pending approvals and other
testing, see the VFS Medical Links Page under Pharmacology. Also see BOOKS
at the end of this page.
Remember--the primary issue with the FAA is whether the medical condition
for which you are being treated is compatible with safe flight.
The question of treating the condition with medication is of secondary
concern.
"Paul Lynch" <pkp...@cox.com> wrote in message
news:BjMyc.744$Jk5.100@lakeread02...
Paul Lynch
conditions that they do not waive for pilots requiring a medical than how
can you argue you have the incredible wisdom and insight that you are safe
to fly if you have one of those conditions?? By your logic anyone can
self-certify no matter what their condition simply because they believe they
are safe to fly.
The sport pilot rule will no doubt end up clarifying this issue in the
future when someone has a mishap and has self-certified themselves safe to
fly. Perhaps we should get off all our soapboxes and let time and some
unfortunate individual(s) resolve the problem...
PK
"ADP" <adpratt(remove)@charter.net> wrote in message
news:10cnd51...@corp.supernews.com...
ADP
If the shoe does not fit you can not convict.
Allan
"Paul Lynch" <pkp...@cox.com> wrote in message
news:7M7zc.900$Jk5.689@lakeread02...
Bullwinkle
OK, let me see if I can clear the air on this.
Just because there is no requirement for glider pilots to have a Medical
Certificate doesn't mean there are no medical requirements for glider pilots
(there are, they are in 61.53).
61.23 says that glider pilots don't need a Medical Certificate. The
Certificate, in FAA terms, is an examination performed to a certain
standard, recorded on FAA Form 8500-8, and reviewed by AMCD in accordance
with standards. We don't need one of those.
61.53 says (as has been debated here and elsewhere for a long time) that we
glider pilots should restrict ourselves from flying when we "know or have
reason to know" that we can't fly safely. This is pretty vague: what does
"reason to know" mean? How to define "safe" in this context? Thus the
debate. If it were clear and unambiguous there would be no debate.
By the way, I think 61.53b applies to ultralight guys now, and sport pilot
guys, if that ever gets approved. The heading is something like: "For
operations which do not require a medical certificate." That's where U/L and
sport pilots will fall: no FAA medical certificate required, thus it applies
to them.
Bottom line. YES: there are medical requirements for us. NO: no medical
certificate needed for glider operations.
Bullwinkle
On 6/13/04 9:39 PM, in article 10cq7gb...@corp.supernews.com, "ADP"
Tony Verhulst
> Sorry, just my professional opinion.
The question, of course is - if you're not an AME, just what is your
profession?