How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

[Sean Fidler]

From another thread recently, thought it might be a good topic to paw around with everyone...

For me, soaring is great fun. I've been doing it consistently for about 5 years now. I've met a bunch of amazing, great, kind people and have learned a tremendous amount about the sport (light years left to go). Thru and thru, as a group, soaring pilots, their friends and family are among the nicest, smartest most interesting people I have ever met. I am attracted to this immensely.

Part of the reason I have devoted time and energy to the sport is that am truly inspired by what competition/cross country pilots are capable of doing in gliders. I am still fascinated by it and want to be a part of it. This, for me, was huge. Glider pilots are amazing pilots, PERIOD.

I probably never would have truly learned of the sport (and what it really is at the highest levels), or been so attracted to it if my dad was not involved. Having a family member with a high performance glider, flying it regularly and promoting how amazing the sport could be all the time was key. Having access to a high performance glider and a group of local friends who could mentor me and take me out on cross country flights shortly after I got my license was the key moment. Would I have got my license if the motivation was just flying around the airport? Probably not.

Those experiences flying with the Ionio boys on short, mentored cross country's "set the hook" for me and eventually led to me buying a glider so that I could fly with everyone rather than leave my dad back at the airport whenever I was flying. Of course once I bought my first glider so I could fly with this gang regularly, the learning curve grew dramatically. The hook set deeper. And so on.

Flying clubs are important to US soaring "health" I suppose but they also seem to lack in areas. They often don't have much to offer in terms of even moderate performance gliders. They often don't promote or in some cases even allow cross country.

It seems that European clubs are more into cross country which is more challenging and more rewarding than local flight, which I think gets old after a year or so. If some inspirational figure is not actively encouraging and facilitating cross country glider flight (the whole point of the sport I think) at that key moment in a glider pilots career, I think they come to the conclusion that they have checked the box and move on.

Obviously without glider clubs more focused on taking pilots into cross country levels, one has to have the financial means to do it on their own. I dont see that as a real problem as numerous 40:1 gliders are available for the same price as a small sailboat or powerboat, which almost everybody seems to have these days (jet skis, snowmobiles, etc). It's a matter of priority. Gliders I suppose are for one person (usually) where a boat (or other rec toy) is for the whole family.

But Europe seems to have an entirely different dynamic with respect to soaring. More youth, larger numbers, etc. U.S. numbers have been steadily declining for 25 years.

One thing I learned in business school. It's often better to adopt successful competitors methods even if at first you don't fully understand them yet. Our clubs (and the SSA) should be talking to European clubs and picking their brains for advise. I wonder how many have actually done that. Perhaps take a trip to Europe on summer and spend a few weeks with a successful club, talk to the people, etc.

Oddly, my flying is at a location that actually IDs itself as IONIA NON CLUB. They don't like the politics. :-).

The rules is a small thing overall but debating the rules is an important thing in terms of competition pilots. My suggestions usually would make getting into competition soaring simpler for the new pilot. I do think our rules are too complicated, but the rule makers are all GREAT PEOPLE, working hard and want nothing but the best for our sport.

Sean
7T

[jfitch]

I will point out that European numbers have been in decline for a similar period, at a similar rate to the US, just starting from a higher plateau. GA numbers also seem to be in decline. For whatever reason, I just don't think aviation is the same magnetic for young imaginations that it once was.

[Dan Marotta]

In a word (or two) - "smart phones".  How often do you see young people that don't have their heads down and both thumbs working at near-light speed?

On 8/15/2015 9:18 AM, jfitch wrote:

<snip>

I will point out that European numbers have been in decline for a similar period, at a similar rate to the US, just starting from a higher plateau. GA numbers also seem to be in decline. For whatever reason, I just don't think aviation is the same magnetic for young imaginations that it once was.

--
Dan Marotta

[son_of_flubber]

Due to my present endurance limitations, I keep my flights to less than 2.5 hours. The terrain and lift conditions where I fly are complicated and a recurring challenge. I'm not bored. I often need to find lift on the way back to the airport and landing out is always a possibility. But I'm not flying XC.

Here's the thing. I fly 3X as frequently as most XC pilots at my club. For the most part, they only fly on 'good XC days', and the coincidence of 'good XC days' with 'days off' is infrequent in Vermont. I'm not sure that I would/should want to ever fly that infrequently.

I have fun flying on a lot of 'marginal days'. Timing my launch to coincide with the 1-2 hours of workable lift on a marginal day is fun.

So sure, I'm trying to extend my endurance so that I can fly real XC flights. But I hope that flying on marginal days does not lose it's appeal. If at some point, I join the ranks of XC pilots that only fly infrequently, I may very well quit the sport at that stage. Maybe when I reach that stage, I won't have to fly so frequently to maintain my currency. I'm in no rush to quit the sport, so my present fun and extremely slow progression to fly XC seems a good way for me to enjoy the sport for many years to come.

Do XC pilots ever recover the joy of flying on marginal days?

[pbx...@gmail.com]

Reply to all 3 posts.

Sean, how much fun actually flying gliders is doesn't matter that much to the initial "sale" An interested visitor will at most get a 20 minute "sleigh ride" in a glider but spend hours on the ground at the airfield. The thing that makes the "deal" possible is the environment at the gliderport. Unfortunately, most are fly blown armpits of creation populated by not very friendly people. Guess which one makes the biggest impression?. What to do is obvious.

Yes, participation in all aspects of aviation is shrinking. Our bad press is mostly to blame. From the evening news to stand up comics, people are being frightened away from aviation. All of aviation needs to mount a PR campaign to offset this. We also need to become absolutely militant about reducing accidents. We are far too tolerant of unsafe practices.

Dan, be very careful about overgeneralising. I did an informal survey in shopping malls observing about 1000 young people. My numbers say only about 10% were fiddling with cellphones. That's still a big number but it's not 100%. My impression is they do this when they are bored and have nothing else to do. We can give them something more interesting.

Keep the overall numbers in mind. If 1,000 people walked onto US glider operations seeking flight training our infrastructure would be saturated. We just need to figure out how to find that 1,000 in a population of 310 million.

Bill Daniels

[Andy Blackburn]

Bill and I talked about this at the Nationals a couple of years ago. There are three related challenges: intake, conversion and churn.

- Intake is the number of people taking an introductory ride, or are ins some way given an initial introduction to the sport.

- Conversion, is the percentage of people who transition to solo, licensed pilot, XC pilot, racing pilot.

- Churn, is the number of people who get all the way through the conversion "funnel", are in the sport for a (short or long) while then drop out.

The balance of these three effects determine the size of the racing pilot pool year by year.

A big chunk of churn is related to demographics and aging of the baby boom, some is related to the pressures of modern life. Retaining an older pilot for a few more years only buys you a few more years, but given the current profile of the pilot community there might be some work to do.

Intake is expensive, especially with a conversion rate like ours, which IIRC, is around 1% of those who are introduced to the sport actually become a licensed pilot, let alone a regular XC or racing pilot. This is partly a time and money issue, but at the higher levels it is one of finding a mentor to bring you along. At the RC meeting last year we hosted a gathering of local XC, OLC and racing pilots. The most profound comments were around the lack of an onramp to racing, to lean the skills by flying (following, really) a better pilot to see how it's done.

Team flying using the radio is allowed at the regional level. For better or worse Flarm following has reduces some of the "where'd you go?" issues associated with flying with someone. It's kind of fun to run around the course with other pilots from time to time. Bruno's hybrid events have seen a higher proportion of pilots flying at least one, but seemingly more that one, of the assigned tasks as a learning experience - and because it allows you to fly with buddies.

I think there is something that each of us could do in increasing the conversion rate of new XC and racing pilots.

9B

[Bob Whelan]

On 8/15/2015 10:29 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
<Snip>

> Here's the thing. I fly 3X as frequently as most XC pilots at my club. For
> the most part, they only fly on 'good XC days', and the coincidence of
> 'good XC days' with 'days off' is infrequent in Vermont. I'm not sure that
> I would/should want to ever fly that infrequently.
>
> I have fun flying on a lot of 'marginal days'. Timing my launch to coincide
> with the 1-2 hours of workable lift on a marginal day is fun.

"Roger that!"
- - - - - -

>
> So sure, I'm trying to extend my endurance so that I can fly real XC
> flights. But I hope that flying on marginal days does not lose it's
> appeal. If at some point, I join the ranks of XC pilots that only fly
> infrequently, I may very well quit the sport at that stage. Maybe when I
> reach that stage, I won't have to fly so frequently to maintain my
> currency. I'm in no rush to quit the sport, so my present fun and
> extremely slow progression to fly XC seems a good way for me to enjoy the
> sport for many years to come.
>
> Do XC pilots ever recover the joy of flying on marginal days?

Recover? Are there any that lose it (as distinct from those who try XC only on
days when bricks can soar)? Some of my most memorably fun & satisfying flights
have been on what, at preliminary best guess, appeared to be anywhere from
unsoarable to pure survival days. A few of those turned out to even be
awesomely good XC days, though most were pretty much as they looked, though
soarable. And - and here's a key point - if a person takes a tow (or snap)
every chance they make for themselves, then tries to hang on until they're
forced to land by absence of lift, over time they'll begin to learn that it's
more often soarable - XC, too! - than not, regardless of one's
"pre-experiential" preconceptions.

I obtained my license in Maryland (Cumberland) which is where I also made my
first landout, but actually learned (as in, taught myself through reading,
brain-picking and flying-until-forced-to-land) to fly XC in the intermountain
west. Out west was where I began to realize a person's mental outlook was
fundamentally important to how (fast) they clumb the XC learning curve. Many a
time at my home club I'd take tows on what I soon began to call "Eastern days"
when fellow club members demurred due to (low cloudbases, preconceived
notions, etc.). Most of those days proved soarable, and XC soon became part of
those days' picture...and yet I'd typically return to find almost no one else
had towed or even stayed up long locally. That was in the late '70's & early
'80s and the local soaring scene (wonderfully enough) has changed hugely from
those unenlightened days of yore.

Point being - and *especially* for relatively inexperienced-in-time soaring
pilots - odds are your post-release-experience will prove considerably
different (likely, better) than your ground-based guess...IF you hoist
yourself aloft, and IF you seek to hang on by your fingernails (should it be
necessary). Eventually "hanging on thermal-by-thermal by one's fingernails"
morphs to "reading what a day is likely to sustain" and - voila! - low-stress
XC, with short retrieves (if necessary).

One memorable cloud-free day yielded ridge-generated tops to ~ 2.7k' agl
(measured relative to the flatlands), and, after several ridge hours, a real
sense of joy when a buddy eventually towed in a similar-performing ship.
Mutual "boredom" and his residence's airpark field about 12 miles away,
resulted in us deciding to "go for it." If we didn't find a thermal away from
the ridge, our "convenient out" was an abandoned/former airstrip at a private
school halfway to his residential airstrip; in any event we'd retrieve each
other, if necessary. An hour or so later we were back on the ridge, savoring a
gratifying little XC. Had it not been so late in the day, we could've likely
gone considerably farther, despite the low thermal tops & absence of clouds,
because often, the toughest part of going east from Boulder was reaching I-25
due to irrigation and - on "somewhat breezy days" which that one wasn't -
wind-induced thermal suppression until some miles away from the foot of the
mountains.

On another day (which began foggy), I drove the the field late "just because
of pent-up demand" despite murk and visibility of perhaps 5-8 miles. It was a
weekend. No one else wanted a tow, but I found rigging help...and about 4
hours later came back from Rifle, CO, on what turned out to be a booming day,
on both sides of the continental divide, while never experiencing more than
*maybe* 15 miles visibility (which for westerners can be psychologically
unsettling, it's so uncommon). Everyone had gone home, and per the departing
towpilot, only one other tow that day. I corralled a passerby to help me
derig, and drove home hardly able - judging from the invisible mountains and
murky sky in my rear-view mirror - to believe the day's soaring experience.

And, yes, there were those days of multiple tows when I simply refused to
believe my failure to be able to remain aloft was due to the day and not me!

YMWV,
Bob W.

[David Hirst]

>
> I think there is something that each of us could do in increasing the conversion rate of new XC and racing pilots.

In New Zealand, we're seeing the same decline as pretty much everywhere but there are a couple of programmes in place which might (just might) turn things around. Off-topic slightly, getting the kids re-engaged is about getting them to form their own gliding-and-social organisation (youthglide.org.nz) and that seems to be working quite well. I think Abby Delore gave a talk about Youthglide at the SSA conference a couple of years ago.

Back on-topic. After much head-scratching, a bunch of pilots decided that the key to retaining pilots was to get as many as possible into X Country - not denying that there's always a place for the pilots who just like to fly locally but it's the ones who go further who don't tend to drop out of the sport.

The next question was how to do get people into XC. One answer is to lower the (perceived) barriers to flying contest tasks. Most club members have access to club gliders but it's the whole mountain of "there's no way I could fly that far" that seemed to pose the biggest hurdle.

As a consequence, the Racing Committee have made a major revamp to the rules this season, to the effect that contest classes aren't so much based on "Std/15m", "Club", "18/20m" etc. but more "Beginner", "Intermediate" and "Advanced", i.e. based on pilot ability rather than glider performance. You can still fly with the big boys if you want (and get the points and prizes), but you can also turn up in a 18m glider and enter the "beginner" contest. We trialled the scheme informally last season and got a good number of new pilots to come along to contests and fly 75 - 150km tasks. Unsurprisingly, they had a blast! It'll be interesting to see the results this season.

Another thing that may help the decline is the sort of coaching programme that Australia is using for its cross-country pilots, which came out of a whole bunch of work that the Australian Institute of Sport developed, completely unrelated to gliding.

Interesting times. Watch this space.

DH

[Sean Fidler]

Dave,

These are fantastic ideas. I don't think anyone ran with the ideas at the SSA convention that it was presented at unfortunately.

Rather than a one class fits all, the idea of breaking classes (and perhaps tasks) down into smaller, appropriate groups seems very appealing (all the way around).

A few years ago we had some regional contests in Ionia. We generally had both FAI and a Sports class. Some really wanted the easier tasks that sports class typically offered (even some experienced pilots with 18m gliders). Others wanted to race with the "hot shots' in FAI even thought they had older gliders (knowing they would probably end up near the bottom). We didn't really know how to handle this. We could certainly see the desire these pilots had to do what "they wanted" rather than what "we wanted!" We of course let them do what they wanted.

In sailing, lots of classes and lots of trophies works very well. Rather than having 60 boats (for example) in one class and only one winner...why not have 4 classes of various skill level and experience. In sailing it might be broken down into professional, corinthian, Women, Jr's, etc. They all race the same race course, but are scored as an overall AND in the individual classes. Trophies and recognition is of equal importance for all classes. Also little awards such as most improved, best first time attendee, capsize award (see land out award) are well liked.

In soaring, I could see a breakdown by SSA ranking. 100-90, 90-80, 80-70, etc. We could also start a beginner class. I agree (no brainer really) that all involved would have more fun and more of a chance to compete with pilots of equal skill level with more segmented classes. It would be less intimidating. More trophies, more excitement and hopefully a steady graduation thru the ranks as one improves. People enjoy recognition and to feel a sense of accomplishment. When someone gets trophy in front of a crowd, it is a great moment for them and really "set's the hook" in a good way. We should be maximizing these moments for our contests participants AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE! Far more than we do today.

I personally could care less if I was racing with 30 gliders or 5 of my general skills level. The truth is that we always end up racing with 3-5 gliders anyway at most contests. The 3-5 of our skill level. Interesting points DH. Thanks for sharing!

Sean

[Andy Blackburn]

Interesting ideas. It has been tried at a small scale in the US in places with good effect as far as I can tell. Maybe there is something that can be done more formally. I do get the sense that people don't want to spend too much time at the "kids table" so being able to hang with the more experienced pilots (in the air and on the ground) seems to be important aspect of all of this, That was the potential to learn from more experienced pilots is opened up.

9B

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

Some things I have been involved in
Mifflin "rookie" contest. Entry by reverse seeding so all the new guys get in. Then run classes every day before flying and debrief after flying. This was quite popular and hopefully will be repeated.
Rookie School- actively teaching the new folks how to fly a contest and mentoring each every day. This has had good results in terms of safety and getting folks going with good results. We also ask the top rookie to give "winner's" speech at pilots meetings.
Contest riding- most everyone in our club who wants to has gotten to fly/ride in one of our 2 seat gliders in a contest. We are seeing some of these folks become contestants. Even those that don't seem to be much more likely to start flying XC.
It may seem obvious but the more we welcome and encourage those that have an interest, the more will stay and thrive.
FWIW
UH

[MNLou]

Another thought -

The Region 10 North contest last year had Club and Low Performance classes. (Another Tony Condon idea.)

It brought a bunch of less experienced pilots with less expensive gliders into the contest fold.

Lou

PS - Little did I know that, in my case, Low Performance applied to both the glider and the pilot:)

[Sean Fidler]

We should consider formalizing this and mapping it into our contest results, website etc on a standard basis.

If people know they have a chance to compete at their level and "win" a level category, they will probably be more excited to compete.

Instead of a straight linear SSA Pilot Ranking list, break it up into segments so we have several champions. The same breakdown for contest results. Overall and then by segments.

100-90 - Hot Shots
89.9-80 - Advanced
79.9-70 - Intermediate
Beginner (first 2 (3?) years since first contest?)
Jr.
Female

Jr. and Female would be ranked in up to 3 categories (overall, advanced (for example) and Jr. or Female. 3 times on the podium! 3 medals!

Instead of just one, we would have 6 ranking lists with 6 champions on the contest results page of the SSA website! We could also start some perpetual trophies for the SSA convention awards banquet.

We could also do OLC individual achievement medals and club trophies at the SSA convention.

The more winners and recognition that we can produce, the better! We are leaving considerable "magic" (opportunity) on the table at contest by not recognizing more pilots at various skill/experience levels. People simply love having a shot at a trophy. They love being recognized. It may just keep them coming back. It may just inspire others to give it a try. Not to beat the superstars, but to win at their current level against pilots of a similar skill level.

Medals, trophies, etc. are fairly inexpensive while being enormously valuable to those who receive them in front of their peers (see Tony Condon getting on the podium for the USA team bronze at the 13.5 meter World Championship today).

We have a nice, content rich SSA website...it would be easy to have a special "podium" page highlighting all these new rankings, awards and trophies. I'll bet it would be the most viewed page before too long. It would create buzz and these pilots recieving new recognition would love it!

We need to try these things! How about now for next season?

Sean

[Dan Marotta]

Heck yes!  Simply being in the air is a joy for me.  If I can go XC, all the better!

On 8/15/2015 10:29 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:

<snip>

Do XC pilots ever recover the joy of flying on marginal days?

--
Dan Marotta

[mikes...@gmail.com]

We have been working on generating new cross country pilots at our club (Chicago Glider Club) over the last several years and have had some success with the following approach:

1. When new members without glider licenses join the club and seek instruction we try to introduce them to the idea of flying cross country early in the training process. My initial training flights, when the conditions permit, include taking the pilot to nearby airports, using them as turnpoints and getting the new pilot (many are already airplane rated) used to the idea that we don't just stay at the home field, and that modern gliders have the range to safely fly cross country. We have four airports within 10 miles, so its not much of a trip, but it seems to affect attitudes and expectations in a positive manner.

2. Cross-country and racing is a normal weekend activity at our club when the weather permits, so all members see that a group of us are flying cross-country regularly.

3. We have a training program focused on cross country that includes talks by experienced pilots on relevant issues, followed by practice with an experienced cross-country pilot who is usually a CFIG. We have three club two-place gliders (2 ASK-21s and a Duo Discus), so we have the equipment to do this. We have had good turnout at these events, both from new and older club members, many of whom have not been flying cross-country. After a short talk we fly 1-1/2 hour local tasks and evaluate the results. (I have found, by the way, that the biggest problem, so far, in getting people proficient to fly cross-country is thermaling ability.)

4. Apart from the cross-country flights with instructors, we have arranged for practice off-field landings at a near by RLA with a friendly owner. The pilots fly one of the two place glider to the RLA with an instructor in the backseat. They also tow out to go back to the glider club. This got a lot of interest and was appreciated by people who had never landed anywhere but at our glider club. Its a good project on days when the weather is too weak for cross-country.

5. Our club also has an ASW-24, and we encourage pilots to use it for cross-country flying.

6. We set cross-country tasks on most weekends when the weather cooperates (very few this year). If there are new cross-country pilots flying, the task options include a local MAT that won't take the pilot more than 10 miles or so from our airport, but allow visiting up to five other turnpoints. We encourage people to turn in their flight logs and we post the results, usually with comments from the pilots who flew tasks that day.

Interest has been good and several members who were not flying cross country when they started are now doing so. Mike Shakman

[son_of_flubber]

I know a few XC pilots like yourself that fly on marginal days.

But I'm talking about the XC pilots that don't race and who only fly on the rare strong XC day that coincides with their days off. If it came to that, I'd probably quit.

[carlf...@gmail.com]

Can't think of a single logical reason to have a separate "female" class. What is this? 1953?
"

[Dan Marotta]

I understand what you're saying.

Last week at Minden we took off early on a blue day in an ASH-30 mi.  It took us an hour and a half of scratching, gaining and losing, heading out and retreating, before we finally were able to climb.  After that, things got better and we had a great day of soaring.  Of course our average speed was severely impacted by the 1.5 hours of zero mileage, but we had a terrific time nonetheless.

I'm very fortunate to have a friend who owns such a super ship and loves to fly as much as I do!

--
Dan Marotta

[Waveguru]

How about a team to work on some media coverage? We need a team of people, familiar with how to get coverage, work on getting national coverage for our national contests and local coverage for our local events. NBC, ABC,CBS, FOX, sports channels... They've got a golf channel, why not a Soaring channel? The public needs to see how far and high high we go on maps, with interviews with the winners, and youth participants.

Boggs

[pbx...@gmail.com]

Andy, we don't disagree at all. Until and unless we solve the intake and conversion problems, churn ("retention") is moot. While it's absolutely true that getting new pilots into XC will increase retention, we have to have the new pilots.

[Waveguru]

How about a Red Bull glider race?

Boggs

[Dan Marotta]

Another way to inspire XC flying is to have club camps away from the home field and/or soaring safaris.  Pilots get to experience different locations and conditions and have a time of total immersion in soaring without the pressures of work or going home in the evening.

When I was at Black Forest in Colorado, the club usually held a couple of camps per year away from home.  We'd take our tow plane and at least one trainer with us for students and newbies and would also sell rides to tourists to help with costs.  These events were usually well subscribed by private owners and normally occurred over long weekends.

Safaris, on the other hand, usually lasted a week or so and consisted of straight out flying, landing at a different airport each day.  I have participated in three such safaris but, unfortunately, could never get more than one pair of pilots sharing one glider to go along.  We've done those by ground launch or using a self-launcher.

At Moriarty we've discussed taking a tow plane and a group of gliders and heading out on a week-long trip but, to date, it's not gotten further than the talking stage.  I recall reading of border to border flights back in the '80s and I'd do that in a heartbeat if it could be organized.  I know a few new pilots who would jump at the chance to participate in that!  I imagine starting at Alamogordo, NM or El Paso, TX and flying north to a preplanned location to rest and continue the next day.  We could continue to the Canadian border in WY or MT, rest up, and head for home.  That might take two weeks!  The biggest problem I see is getting to commit to using their vacation.  For my money this would be a lot more fun than returning home each day as in a contest.

--
Dan Marotta

[swanso...@yahoo.com]

One thing that's worked, and has been a lot of fun, is having a task set for each flying day. After the task is flown, we get together the next morning, compare the scores, watch all the flights on see you, and get some coaching from the experienced xc pilots. It's a lot of fun to "compete" against your friends. We get to fly places we might not otherwise go, and it's fun to learn from each other. At the soaring club of Houston we are fortunate that we have a cross country mentor willing to do all of the task setting, scoring, getting the projector ready etc.

[Jim White]

Enthusiasm

I will offer two ideas:

First. Next week the UK Junior Nationals will be run at Aston Down. There
are over 50 entries and a load of two seaters being flown by pundits to
show those who are not yet ready for competition how it goes. This is down
to a few very enthusiastic pundits who are keen to grow the sport and pass
on their knowledge and enthusiasm to the next generation and to a few of
the juniors themselves who have thrown their efforts into enthusing other
youngsters.

There is a junior web site, great junior videos, 'how to' stuff etc. See
http://www.juniorgliding.co.uk Our BGA is also enthusiastic and supportive
with competition subsidies and training bursaries for the young.

I have never known the junior scene to be more active. Let the youngsters
loose and they will do it.

Second: Make cross country flying less intimidating for newbies and low
handicap gliders at club level. Handicap distance tasks allow all to fly
together at the same time, in the same air, in a collective spirit. We set
these every weekend at Booker and they get flown in gliders from 89 to 112
handicap. One member who flies a Pegase and hasn't flown more than 100k on
her own tasks for years flew nearly 300k the other week and landed with a
huge smile.

For newbies you can give them an extra 5 handicap points to allow them to
play on a more level ground.

Take a look at www.handicaptask.uk I have even made it US friendly! Sean,
please have a look if you are seeking ideas.

Jim

[well...@gmail.com]

Improvement at all stages -- intake, conversion & churn, should be improved by participants seeing clear goals ahead that they could achieve. For the most part this is XC flying in a nice ship, but there are other goals people could set themselves.

One observation is that on your side of the pond, you refer to introductory flights as "sleigh rides." I've heard that, by default, the prospective pilot doesn't even get a stick to handle!

If that's true, then no wonder the conversion rate is so low! In the era of high rises and budget commercial airline travel, sitting passively in (an ageing) glider just isn't very appealing to young people.

Give them a "trial flight," get them on the controls, and allow them to see themselves flying a high performance ship in the future.

That seed needs to be planted right from the get-go. Once it is planted, their own enthusiasm will do the rest.

[Sarah]

On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 11:00:12 AM UTC-5, carlf...@gmail.com wrote:
> Can't think of a single logical reason to have a separate "female" class. What is this? 1953?
> "

I can't either. Soaring competition doesn't require muscle unless you're talking about rigging/derigging. As far as I know that's not scored.

[Sarah]

I should probably add I'm not the famous contest winner Sarah. Just to avoid confusion. I'm just another average glider pilot.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 3:11:43 PM UTC+3, well...@gmail.com wrote:
> One observation is that on your side of the pond, you refer to introductory flights as "sleigh rides." I've heard that, by default, the prospective pilot doesn't even get a stick to handle!
>
> If that's true, then no wonder the conversion rate is so low! In the era of high rises and budget commercial airline travel, sitting passively in (an ageing) glider just isn't very appealing to young people.
>
> Give them a "trial flight," get them on the controls, and allow them to see themselves flying a high performance ship in the future.

Yeah, that's pretty shocking.

My most popular youtube video (link below) is an intro flight I did a few years ago in the DG1000. The day was not very good (overcast and light wind), but I managed to show a little bit of soaring to at least pretty much maintain altitude, and then gave the student the controls for I guess 15 min or so and just let him play and get a feel for it.

The background was that he'd pretty clearly decided he wanted to fly *something*. He'd been for a trial flight in a Cessna already on the same day, and I tried to sell him on gliders instead.

It must have worked, as he went solo in the DG1000 almost exactly six months later.

That was one of my first flights after getting the instructor ticket. Looking back at it now I can see all kinds of things that I hope I've improved since then! But, all the same, I've had a lot of very positive comments on the video and I hope some of the commenters have been inspired to take a flight themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDZN21xzsRo

[ND]

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 11:09:43 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> From another thread recently, thought it might be a good topic to paw around with everyone...
>
> For me, soaring is great fun. I've been doing it consistently for about 5 years now. I've met a bunch of amazing, great, kind people and have learned a tremendous amount about the sport (light years left to go). Thru and thru, as a group, soaring pilots, their friends and family are among the nicest, smartest most interesting people I have ever met. I am attracted to this immensely.
>
> Part of the reason I have devoted time and energy to the sport is that am truly inspired by what competition/cross country pilots are capable of doing in gliders. I am still fascinated by it and want to be a part of it. This, for me, was huge. Glider pilots are amazing pilots, PERIOD.
>
> I probably never would have truly learned of the sport (and what it really is at the highest levels), or been so attracted to it if my dad was not involved. Having a family member with a high performance glider, flying it regularly and promoting how amazing the sport could be all the time was key. Having access to a high performance glider and a group of local friends who could mentor me and take me out on cross country flights shortly after I got my license was the key moment. Would I have got my license if the motivation was just flying around the airport? Probably not.
>
> Those experiences flying with the Ionio boys on short, mentored cross country's "set the hook" for me and eventually led to me buying a glider so that I could fly with everyone rather than leave my dad back at the airport whenever I was flying. Of course once I bought my first glider so I could fly with this gang regularly, the learning curve grew dramatically. The hook set deeper. And so on.
>
> Flying clubs are important to US soaring "health" I suppose but they also seem to lack in areas. They often don't have much to offer in terms of even moderate performance gliders. They often don't promote or in some cases even allow cross country.
>
> It seems that European clubs are more into cross country which is more challenging and more rewarding than local flight, which I think gets old after a year or so. If some inspirational figure is not actively encouraging and facilitating cross country glider flight (the whole point of the sport I think) at that key moment in a glider pilots career, I think they come to the conclusion that they have checked the box and move on.
>
> Obviously without glider clubs more focused on taking pilots into cross country levels, one has to have the financial means to do it on their own. I dont see that as a real problem as numerous 40:1 gliders are available for the same price as a small sailboat or powerboat, which almost everybody seems to have these days (jet skis, snowmobiles, etc). It's a matter of priority. Gliders I suppose are for one person (usually) where a boat (or other rec toy) is for the whole family.
>
> But Europe seems to have an entirely different dynamic with respect to soaring. More youth, larger numbers, etc. U.S. numbers have been steadily declining for 25 years.
>
> One thing I learned in business school. It's often better to adopt successful competitors methods even if at first you don't fully understand them yet. Our clubs (and the SSA) should be talking to European clubs and picking their brains for advise. I wonder how many have actually done that. Perhaps take a trip to Europe on summer and spend a few weeks with a successful club, talk to the people, etc.
>
> Oddly, my flying is at a location that actually IDs itself as IONIA NON CLUB. They don't like the politics. :-).
>
> The rules is a small thing overall but debating the rules is an important thing in terms of competition pilots. My suggestions usually would make getting into competition soaring simpler for the new pilot. I do think our rules are too complicated, but the rule makers are all GREAT PEOPLE, working hard and want nothing but the best for our sport.
>
> Sean
> 7T

Morning Sean,

I think your comments about mirroring european soaring clubs definitely has some merit. At harris hill, I think a huge thing for our club is that we have a discus CS, and a Duo Discus, as well as a number of pilots who are active in cross country as a baseline. Even if your father/grandfather is not involved in this case, you still end up with access to high performance equipment, and people to guide you along.

my first cross country was with roy mcmaster in our duo. after about 5-7 cross country flights on my own, i flew a HUGE flight (for me at the time) with tim welles and he offered some pointers. i did the flying, he critiqued, and i saw that if i made the right decisions i could go fly cross country all afternoon too.

also, harris hill offers two gliders to junior members free of hourly charge: the discus CS and the SGS 1-34. for those reasons, we are able to expose our junior members to flying and make it very attractive to them from a cost standpoint. so we're getting a younger crowd involved. we have four members under 25 right now who have completed silver badges, and several more who are on their way with one or two of the legs done. The majority of them aren't from soaring families. bottom line, make it affordable, and give them access to the equipment. No way could my dad have afforded normal flying lessons for me when i was a teen. harris hill offered instructional flights when i was junior 13 years ago for 3 bucks a flight. that was offset with commercial rides, and subsidized by senior member rates.

as far as drawing adults to the cross country aspect, it needs to be turnkey, people need the have the ability to advance quickly if they want so that they dont get bored. a good training program is helpful. we do instruction every wednesday night during the flying months so that senior members can get focused weekly instruction. in the winter we do a condor night, where we set up a server and 6-8 members join and fly a cross country flight. we always debrief those and talk about the decision making. it gets everyone involved juiced up for spring.

the formula is the same in your example as mine. there needs to be equipment available, and mentors available. one reason we see people getting into cross country at harris hill is because there are several people who go on a regular basis. it creates a cross country environment. tim welles (W3) is an ironman and flies more regularly, and and in poorer weather, than most. i think it takes a catalyst in that regard. you need people who can shepherd and motivate others.

[Dan Marotta]

Every place I've flown in the USA has offered the stick to the customer.  In my experience the term, "sleigh ride", refers to flights when there is no lift available.  In that case we suggest a different time or day for the flight.  Often the suggestion is accepted but just as often not.  A lot of the people who come for a ride are simply checking off a box on their bucket list and there's no doubt they won't be returning.  For those who show the spark of enthusiasm, we go far out of our way to encourage them to return.

In my case, as a prior experienced formation pilot, I was given the stick from the beginning of the takeoff roll to the end of the rollout.  The hook was deeply set for me and I immediately began taking lessons culminating in a commercial add-on rating.

--
Dan Marotta

[Bruce Hoult]

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 4:28:28 PM UTC+3, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Every place I've flown in the USA has offered the stick to the
> customer.  In my experience the term, "sleigh ride", refers to
> flights when there is no lift available.  In that case we suggest a
> different time or day for the flight.

Of course guaranteeing lift is not compatible with taking bookings for a fixed future day and time, so we encourage people to take the 4000 ft tow option to ensure a reasonable flight length.

Anyway it's not a good idea to fight too hard to exploit marginal lift (thermals, certainly) with a 1st timer aboard. Even if it's a thermal day, I'll generally only demonstrate a climb of 200 or 300 ft before exiting the thermal, just to give them a taste.

Of course if it's big fat thermals that work with well under 30 degrees of bank, or even only part of the turn in the thermal, then it's a different matter.

[Sean Fidler]

The same can be said of sailing but we still have female classification and it is wildly successful.

Women like competing with other women (in sailing for sure). They are not very prevalent right now in the USA and Canada. I can count the female glider pilots I know on one hand.

Obviously, worldwide women glider competition is more popular. To me it makes great sense. Women should be recognized when they do compete in the USA. It will encourage others.

[Sean Fidler]

Great post! The concept of a "catalyst" or "spark plug" is very important. It's also hard to quantify. It sometimes can be under-rated how important these kinds of people can be to local growth in many sports or groups. The kind of person who gives time, knowhow and encouragement and basically does whatever it takes to help others move forward (short of paying their bills).

Perhaps we need to more actively recognize and appreciate these folks wherever they may be at our annual convention. They are probably the glue that holds the sport together right now!

Sean

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Not sure whom this was directed to..... but.... I know Hank has been honored before as has Dianne (by SSA).
VSC (as well as HHSC) have been honored in the past for their junior programs as well (by SSA).
In fact, I believe these 2 sites usually via against each other for their junior programs.

You are correct though, ANY site can "help promote the sport"! All it takes is one or more people that see a stranger, walk up and say, "Hi, how are you? Do you have any questions??" Some new people are hesitant to talk to strangers at a strange place (what could be stranger than flying, with some of us that are at the airport??, LOL......)

Sad but true story.....
I used to travel a LOT, I had a free weekend in the SW US. Went to a "local but known site" hoping I could do a flight/share costs for a cross country flight (I know they have great weather compared to the NE US).
I had generic clothes on, but a hat with a Gold "C" & 2 Diamonds pin on the front.
I hung around for a couple hours, helped move some gliders, etc.
Not ONCE did ANYONE come up to me and ask, "Hi, how are you? Do you have any questions??".
I had decided to see what they did as well as see if they picked up on the pin.
Needless to say, I didn't spend any money there...... At least, while it looked decent, overheard conversations were that it was not too good a day, thus I didn't push it.

[Squeaky]

'Sarah[_2_ Wrote:
> ;907821']On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 11:00:12 AM UTC-5,
> carlf...@gmail.com wrote:-

> Can't think of a single logical reason to have a separate "female"
> class. What is this? 1953?

> "-

>
> I can't either. Soaring competition doesn't require muscle unless you're
> talking about rigging/derigging. As far as I know that's not scored.

I thought it was suggested just for fairness... I can't even get close
to fitting in a Discus A... My 200+ pounds creates a lot of trim drag
and a higher sink rate/slower climbs in any aircraft I fly... Most
girls have an unfair advantage!!! They're kicking my butt. ;)




--
Squeaky

[Frank Whiteley]

> > I think there is something that each of us could do in increasing the conversion rate of new XC and racing pilots.
> >
> > 9B
>
> Improvement at all stages -- intake, conversion & churn, should be improved by participants seeing clear goals ahead that they could achieve. For the most part this is XC flying in a nice ship, but there are other goals people could set themselves.
>
> One observation is that on your side of the pond, you refer to introductory flights as "sleigh rides." I've heard that, by default, the prospective pilot doesn't even get a stick to handle!
>
> If that's true, then no wonder the conversion rate is so low! In the era of high rises and budget commercial airline travel, sitting passively in (an ageing) glider just isn't very appealing to young people.
>
> Give them a "trial flight," get them on the controls, and allow them to see themselves flying a high performance ship in the future.
>
> That seed needs to be planted right from the get-go. Once it is planted, their own enthusiasm will do the rest.

Our clubs and chapters have been encouraged to offer introductory lessons over scenic flights. We have our Fly A Sailplane Today (FAST) package, which includes some materials, a log book, 1/2 hour ground lesson and 1/2 hour flight lesson and three-month SSA Introductory Membership (Soaring Magazine, website access, etc). Our committee encourages a local 'upgrade' for some additional dosh to make this a three-lesson 'FAST Plus' package and include a local introductory membership for a similar term (insurance reasons). After three logged lessons, there is a 'value-added' weight to that logbook, and with encouragement, many will become full members, especially if one of the lessons includes nice soaring sortie. Of course a reasonable cap on lessons as an 'intro' membership is recommended. But at least this will shake out those who are a good fit for the sport, for the club or chapter, and makes a bit of money. Scenic flights may be revenue positive, but deny members access to fleet and instruction although it may prepare a commercial pilot for becoming an instructor. Unfortunately we don't have a tiered instructor program like the BGA.

Frank Whiteley

[Frank Whiteley]

The SSA Group Plan does not allow club/chapter scenic passengers to manipulate the controls. Hence the FAST program.

Frank Whiteley

[Frank Whiteley]

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:00:07 AM UTC-6, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:

> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-4, ND wrote:
>
> > Morning Sean,
> >
> > I think your comments about mirroring european soaring clubs definitely has some merit. At harris hill, I think a huge thing for our club is that we have a discus CS, and a Duo Discus, as well as a number of pilots who are active in cross country as a baseline. Even if your father/grandfather is not involved in this case, you still end up with access to high performance equipment, and people to guide you along.
> >
> > my first cross country was with roy mcmaster in our duo. after about 5-7 cross country flights on my own, i flew a HUGE flight (for me at the time) with tim welles and he offered some pointers. i did the flying, he critiqued, and i saw that if i made the right decisions i could go fly cross country all afternoon too.
> >
> > also, harris hill offers two gliders to junior members free of hourly charge: the discus CS and the SGS 1-34. for those reasons, we are able to expose our junior members to flying and make it very attractive to them from a cost standpoint. so we're getting a younger crowd involved. we have four members under 25 right now who have completed silver badges, and several more who are on their way with one or two of the legs done. The majority of them aren't from soaring families. bottom line, make it affordable, and give them access to the equipment. No way could my dad have afforded normal flying lessons for me when i was a teen. harris hill offered instructional flights when i was junior 13 years ago for 3 bucks a flight. that was offset with commercial rides, and subsidized by senior member rates.
> >
> > as far as drawing adults to the cross country aspect, it needs to be turnkey, people need the have the ability to advance quickly if they want so that they dont get bored. a good training program is helpful. we do instruction every wednesday night during the flying months so that senior members can get focused weekly instruction. in the winter we do a condor night, where we set up a server and 6-8 members join and fly a cross country flight. we always debrief those and talk about the decision making. it gets everyone involved juiced up for spring.
> >
> > the formula is the same in your example as mine. there needs to be equipment available, and mentors available. one reason we see people getting into cross country at harris hill is because there are several people who go on a regular basis. it creates a cross country environment. tim welles (W3) is an ironman and flies more regularly, and and in poorer weather, than most. i think it takes a catalyst in that regard. you need people who can shepherd and motivate others.
>

> HHSC is not the only one doing this.....
>
> Valley Soaring in Middletown, NY (where I fly) does similar.
>
> It started back in the '70's with the commercial operation (also called Valley Soaring) by helping out "kids".
> Basically, work a day, get a flight.
> Some regulars added some money to a "pot" to help offset some of the costs as well.
> This operation was started by Hank Nixon, his wife Dianne & Herb Reilly until it was turned into a club.
> Hank & I own SGS-1-26 SN 002 which we let juniors use for "free". They cut the grass in the tiedown, wash the glider, etc.
> Junior members at VS pay lower dues and tow rates. Instruction is also a lower rate.
>
> Once they get some more flying time, there are quite a few pilots that fly cross country and will lead other pilots around and help out.
> We also take people for cross country in a ASK-21 from our field as well as at contests so they can get a better idea of what goes on.
>
> During the summer, we try to have at least one picnic/month so the "none flying" members of a family can come out and see some of what the "flying member" does for the day.
>
> All of this has been modeled after Euro clubs and tweaked a bit for our site.
>
> Maybe Sean just has not seen some of what IS going on in clubs/operations in the US.
>
> As to "rides" for new people, we usually try and let them do some of the flying while up.
> If they do well and the weather is good, then we'll help them get set on final, then put our hands on their shoulders and talk them to a landing. The resulting grin is usually rather large.
>
> PS, yes, I've flown at HHSC lots of times. Many times for the Snowbird as well as contests held there.
>
> PPS, I started flying there in the early '70's, so the current club is the 3rd entity I've flown with at the same airport.

Texas Soaring Association has had an active youth program, with attendant youth 'earning' $10/hour credit toward their training for being there and helping. These programs can work very well with oversight.

Frank Whiteley

[Dan Stroschine]

Speaking as a pre-solo student with aspirations of doing XC I love the idea of creating at least a couple of levels. I don't know if we'd have enough contestants to fill six at my club, but at least a couple would work.

At our club there are some accomplished XC pilots that are incredibly nice and giving with knowledge. But the idea of 'competing' with them on a task that is designed to be challenging to them is quite intimidating. Of course I wouldn't expect to be at or close the bottom but if I don't have the experience I might not have a good idea as to my (or my planes) limits so the chances of me landing out trying because I thought I could make it would increase a lot.

It would be great to have a task that would challenge me (and other inexperienced XC'ers) without making it too easy for the competent ones. This could be a subset of turn points that make up a larger task. The more experienced groups progressively have more turn points/areas...

just my 0.5c

Dan

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Some great ideas being discussed. Most require a "sparkplug" or two and a lot of dedication and time, and take a while to show positive results. Often those who are most interested in XC and competition are the least inclined to organize and drive these efforts although they're quite happy to support them.

Some years ago there was an annual intro-to-XC event held at Philadelphia Glider Council's facility. Classroom sessions (IIRC, Roy McMaster came down for it) followed by several task options with mentors, each of whom flew with 1-3 "students". A couple of students with a little more experience had Doug Jacobs as their mentor one year! Several of us who had been volunteered as mentors tried to convince the organizers that we could benefit more from flying with Doug than our students could with us. :)

Yes, obviously the participants had to have access to their own gliders, but many (most?) private owners don't fly cross country that much so this effort was targeted at them. One weekend enjoyed particularly good weather, which allowed us to get out on course and gain some real experience, including students getting low. Weather is obviously a huge imponderable when planning ahead.

I don't know what the stats were regarding effectiveness of the program but the Governor's Cup--a season-long competition around common courses in the PA/NJ/NY area anchored by half a dozen gliderports including PGC--took off about then and was a big draw for pilots of widely varying abilities.

One thing to keep in mind: it's not just exposing people to soaring and then converting them. I honestly don't know what the attrition rates are but we seem to lose a lot of pilots who are active for a while and then drop away. Having been out of soaring three times over the years, I can say it can be tough to stay with it no matter how much you enjoy it. It's expensive, takes an inordinate amount of time, isn't always family friendly, and is a lot of work. Yes, the truly motivated will persevere. It's the mortal rest of us who are sometimes diverted, not always by choice.

I've resumed soaring three times after lapses of 5, 3, and nearly 4 years and it's pretty daunting. HUGE thanks to Hank Nixon (already lauded for his work) and Erik Mann (heavily involved in the PGC experiment and driver of the G-Cup) who have kept in touch even when I wasn't flying, aided enormously when I undertook comebacks on my own, and provided the spark (shove) to get me moving the last time when I needed encouragement. The days of "paying your dues" by working your way up the ladder painfully slowly and "if someone really wants to fly badly enough, they'll find a way" are long past. There are too many other demands for our time/money in today's world.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

[Jim White]

At 20:05 17 August 2015, Dan Stroschine wrote:
>Speaking as a pre-solo student with aspirations of doing XC I love the

>idea=

> of creating at least a couple of levels. I don't know if we'd have
enough

>=
>contestants to fill six at my club, but at least a couple would work.=20

>
>At our club there are some accomplished XC pilots that are incredibly
nice

>=

>and giving with knowledge. But the idea of 'competing' with them on a
task

>=

>that is designed to be challenging to them is quite intimidating. Of

>course=

> I wouldn't expect to be at or close the bottom but if I don't have the

>exp=

>erience I might not have a good idea as to my (or my planes) limits so
the

>=

>chances of me landing out trying because I thought I could make it would

>in=
>crease a lot.=20

>
>It would be great to have a task that would challenge me (and other

>inexper=

>ienced XC'ers) without making it too easy for the competent ones. This

>coul=

>d be a subset of turn points that make up a larger task. The more

>experienc=

>ed groups progressively have more turn points/areas...
>
>just my 0.5c
>
>Dan
>

This is exactly what handicap distance tasks where designed to, and do,
achieve

[Bruce Hoult]

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:33:39 PM UTC+3, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> The SSA Group Plan does not allow club/chapter scenic passengers to manipulate the controls. Hence the FAST program.

The opposite in New Zealand. Scenic flights are not allowed. If you do not offer use of the controls during the flight then you are in danger of being reclassified as a commercial operation, not a club, and that means a whole other (much more onerous) maintenance and regulatory regime.

[daniel...@gmail.com]

Hey Sean,

My club (Aero Club Albatross in Blairstown, NJ) does a great job inspiring pilots to take up cross country soaring. This is due to several reasons.

1) Cross Country flying is encouraged in club equipment.
2) There is an active group of cross country pilots that fly often, which consistently shows what can be done.
3) The social scene encourages people to stick around after landing, which helps in mentoring new folks and almost guaranteeing that someone will retrieve you if you land out.
4) Landouts are treated as an accomplishment, rather than a hassle and a burden.

One of the big reasons that my club is so relaxed about cross country flying in club equipment is due to its two 1-26Es. If you would like to get XC approved, the rules are quite simple. Get your Silver climb and duration in the 1-26 and then you are approved to do a Silver Distance. After completing your silver badge in a 1-26, you are free to fly XC in any glider that you are approved to fly.

This arrangement works out very nicely because the low-time pilots cut their teeth in a glider that is cheap, safe and durable. If they land out, they are unlikely to hurt it and if they do incur some minor damage, it isn't a big deal to the club because at the end of the day, it's still a 1-26. As a result, ACA encourages people to get on out there and fly rather than being reticent about cutting them loose.

Flying cross country in club equipment is a big reason why we retain membership. Our fleet allows people to progress from Schweizers through sleek German glass at low cost. It makes it a lot easier for people to really try out the sport and get hooked rather than being faced with the daunting decision of having to buy a glider before they are really ready to go headfirst into this activity.

I am forever thankful that I am fortunate enough to be a member of such an awesome club and incredible soaring site.

Daniel

[Papa3]

I do think we sometimes make it more complicated than we need to. There's no silver bullet - it's a lot of hard work by a relatively few people that typically moves the ball forward. I suspect (though I don't have data to prove it) that my local SSA Region (Region 2) does disproportionately well in terms of getting folks into XC. That has to do with basically 2 or 3 locations that really go out of their way to mentor XC pilots, two Regionals (Mifflin and Wurtsboro) that really cater to newcomers, a very active decentralized contest (the Governor's Cup) and a few people who work really hard to push newcomers to "convert".

I don't think equipment is as much of a problem as some folks would like to believe. It would be nice, since it would "just" mean more money.

If I get around to it I'll publish the results of a survey I did two years ago. At least in this region, a surprising number of pilots do go XC, though not that many of them participate in either contests or the OLC.

Erik Mann (P3)

[Frank Whiteley]

Interesting approach. The baseline for insurance here is commercial coverage. Under our SSA Group Plan, a club with 100% SSA members receives a discount, but will have some constraints, e.g., rides okay by current commercial rated pilot (and other FAA compliance such as Type Certificated glider, 100-hour inspections) but membership required to manipulate the controls. There are other insurance options, and other approaches. At least one club requires all members to have renter/non-owner insurance. This also allows members to fly with local commercial operations. This coverage is included under our group plan for private owners up to the insured limits of their hull value. The thinking behind the ride coverage is expectation of performance when the passenger pays for the service and how will the courts find that this expectation is met in case of a claim.

Frank Whiteley

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 2:43:38 AM UTC+3, daniel...@gmail.com wrote:
> One of the big reasons that my club is so relaxed about cross country flying in club equipment is due to its two 1-26Es. If you would like to get XC approved, the rules are quite simple. Get your Silver climb and duration in the 1-26 and then you are approved to do a Silver Distance. After completing your silver badge in a 1-26, you are free to fly XC in any glider that you are approved to fly.

Things work a bit differently at my club.

I'm not aware of any formal requirement to demonstrate soaring ability in order to go cross country. The requirement is to demonstrate ability to make a circuit and short precision landing over an obstacle (fence at least) to a place you haven't previously landed. This could be an unused corner of the airfield, or a nearby field with a friendly farmer (bonus points if it's far enough away in a suitable direction that you might actually need it in anger later). Cross country ratings are given for each glider type -- you might be allowed to take the PW5 cross country, but only fly the DG1000 locally.

[Martin Gregorie]

In the UK a lot of the preliminaries are covered by the BGA's Bronze
Badge, which as two parts:

Part 1
- 50 solo flights or 20 flights and 10 hours
- two soaring flights of 30mins each off a winch or 60mins from an aero
tow of 2000ft or less
- followed by
- three check flights with an instructor including stall&spin
checks, launch failure recovery
- two demonstrated field landings with altimeter covered.
May be done on the airfield but using a part that isn't a usual
landing area or approach
- a written test on Air Law and General flying
- the lot to be completed within 12 months.

Part 2 (XC endorsement)
- a one hour and a two hour soaring flight
- field selection, field landing and navigation exercises,
usually done in a motor glider.

At my club a new solo pilot converts to the SZD Juniors after 5 solos and
flying checks on the ASK-21 and almost immediately starts working on the
Bronze Badge, which gives them something concrete to aim at after solo.
They are encouraged to start work on their Silver Badge at the same time,
because both Silver height gain and duration can be done without leaving
the home field and, if conditions are suitable, Silver distance can be
attempted as soon as the Bronze XC endorsement has been signed off.

Then they're encouraged to go for the BGA 100km diploma, usually in a
club single seater (we have two Juniors, Pegase 90, Discus and ASW-24).
The 100 km diploma has 2 parts (a) flying the 100 km as a triangle or out
& return and (b) a similar flight with a handicapped speed of 65km/h or
faster. I did both parts in the club Pegase in a single flight on a
really good day: flew a 109km triangle, turned round and went round it
again in the opposite direction. The second time round was fast enough
for part B.

Last but not least, there's the InterClub League, in which the clubs in a
locality fly in a series of weekend competitions, with each club hosting
one of them. Each club enters teams of three:
- pundit (anybody can fly - no experience restrictions)
- intermediate (must not have flown a 500km Diamond distance or a
Nationals level competition)
- novice (must not have flown a 300km Gold task or a rated competition)

It seems to me that the InterClub League format might be something that
would work well in the US scene since it involves relatively small tasks,
lets pilots at various levels compete against each other and gives them
the experience of flying from different fields.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[airr...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 11:09:43 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> From another thread recently, thought it might be a good topic to paw around with everyone...
>
> For me, soaring is great fun. I've been doing it consistently for about 5 years now. I've met a bunch of amazing, great, kind people and have learned a tremendous amount about the sport (light years left to go). Thru and thru, as a group, soaring pilots, their friends and family are among the nicest, smartest most interesting people I have ever met. I am attracted to this immensely.
>
> Part of the reason I have devoted time and energy to the sport is that am truly inspired by what competition/cross country pilots are capable of doing in gliders. I am still fascinated by it and want to be a part of it. This, for me, was huge. Glider pilots are amazing pilots, PERIOD.
>
> I probably never would have truly learned of the sport (and what it really is at the highest levels), or been so attracted to it if my dad was not involved. Having a family member with a high performance glider, flying it regularly and promoting how amazing the sport could be all the time was key. Having access to a high performance glider and a group of local friends who could mentor me and take me out on cross country flights shortly after I got my license was the key moment. Would I have got my license if the motivation was just flying around the airport? Probably not.
>
> Those experiences flying with the Ionio boys on short, mentored cross country's "set the hook" for me and eventually led to me buying a glider so that I could fly with everyone rather than leave my dad back at the airport whenever I was flying. Of course once I bought my first glider so I could fly with this gang regularly, the learning curve grew dramatically. The hook set deeper. And so on.
>
> Flying clubs are important to US soaring "health" I suppose but they also seem to lack in areas. They often don't have much to offer in terms of even moderate performance gliders. They often don't promote or in some cases even allow cross country.
>
> It seems that European clubs are more into cross country which is more challenging and more rewarding than local flight, which I think gets old after a year or so. If some inspirational figure is not actively encouraging and facilitating cross country glider flight (the whole point of the sport I think) at that key moment in a glider pilots career, I think they come to the conclusion that they have checked the box and move on.
>
> Obviously without glider clubs more focused on taking pilots into cross country levels, one has to have the financial means to do it on their own. I dont see that as a real problem as numerous 40:1 gliders are available for the same price as a small sailboat or powerboat, which almost everybody seems to have these days (jet skis, snowmobiles, etc). It's a matter of priority. Gliders I suppose are for one person (usually) where a boat (or other rec toy) is for the whole family.
>
> But Europe seems to have an entirely different dynamic with respect to soaring. More youth, larger numbers, etc. U.S. numbers have been steadily declining for 25 years.
>
> One thing I learned in business school. It's often better to adopt successful competitors methods even if at first you don't fully understand them yet. Our clubs (and the SSA) should be talking to European clubs and picking their brains for advise. I wonder how many have actually done that. Perhaps take a trip to Europe on summer and spend a few weeks with a successful club, talk to the people, etc.
>
> Oddly, my flying is at a location that actually IDs itself as IONIA NON CLUB. They don't like the politics. :-).
>
> The rules is a small thing overall but debating the rules is an important thing in terms of competition pilots. My suggestions usually would make getting into competition soaring simpler for the new pilot. I do think our rules are too complicated, but the rule makers are all GREAT PEOPLE, working hard and want nothing but the best for our sport.
>
> Sean
> 7T

How do you motivate pilots to fly X-C? You don't. Such a desire has to be innate. For us who think cross country flying is a sport too good for kings, it is hard to understand why it has no appeal to others, especially others who do, in fact like to fly. But that's the way it is, and you aren't going to change it. When instructing, I have always included X-C instruction to some degree in every flight, even if it was merely to point out where NOT to go or why this particular day wasn't good for leaving the area. I have always tried to go as far away from the airport as possible and still remain within gliding distance of a normal pattern.
Our BRSS has several club ships with good X-C performance, and many club pilots with the requisite skills to leave the airport. It doesn't happen.
This year we set up a X-C OLC to encourage club pilots to leave the nest. Here are the rules:

BRSS OLC Annual Award
This award will be presented at the BRSS AGM to the club member with the highest OLC score (above minumum) for the OLC period ending at the close of the OLC year . (mid Sept-mid Sept is currently the OLC year.) The minumum score for the award is a total of 300km.
A club member may only win the award once in a three year period.

This award is open to all club members who have never had an SSA competition ranking of 50 or greater. In a two-place glider, neither occupant may have ever had a ranking of 50 or higher. Distance in a two-place glider scores for only the PIC. In other words, only one pilot may claim the distance.

_______________________________________

We got two Nano3's for club use. We laid out short, ultrasafe circuits that would still give enough distance to score on OLC. We held a X-C lecture taylored to those who we thought might be interested.

So how has our program worked? It hasn't. To date, not one taker, not one X-C flight.
I wish that I could share X-C experience with more of my club members. It gets lonely flying all by myself all the time. But that's the way it is, and I don't see any change. But checking OLC in the evening after my flights, I see that there really are a lot of you out there flying X-C too, and it gives a sense of fellowship and comraderie.

And for the guys who are thrilled just to lull around for hours over New Castle - well, you couldn't pick a prettier place. I wish I could be so content.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:01:23 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-4, ND wrote:
>

> > Morning Sean,
> >
> > I think your comments about mirroring european soaring clubs definitely has some merit. At harris hill, I think a huge thing for our club is that we have a discus CS, and a Duo Discus, as well as a number of pilots who are active in cross country as a baseline. Even if your father/grandfather is not involved in this case, you still end up with access to high performance equipment, and people to guide you along.
> >
> > my first cross country was with roy mcmaster in our duo. after about 5-7 cross country flights on my own, i flew a HUGE flight (for me at the time) with tim welles and he offered some pointers. i did the flying, he critiqued, and i saw that if i made the right decisions i could go fly cross country all afternoon too.
> >
> > also, harris hill offers two gliders to junior members free of hourly charge: the discus CS and the SGS 1-34. for those reasons, we are able to expose our junior members to flying and make it very attractive to them from a cost standpoint. so we're getting a younger crowd involved. we have four members under 25 right now who have completed silver badges, and several more who are on their way with one or two of the legs done. The majority of them aren't from soaring families. bottom line, make it affordable, and give them access to the equipment. No way could my dad have afforded normal flying lessons for me when i was a teen. harris hill offered instructional flights when i was junior 13 years ago for 3 bucks a flight. that was offset with commercial rides, and subsidized by senior member rates.
> >
> > as far as drawing adults to the cross country aspect, it needs to be turnkey, people need the have the ability to advance quickly if they want so that they dont get bored. a good training program is helpful. we do instruction every wednesday night during the flying months so that senior members can get focused weekly instruction. in the winter we do a condor night, where we set up a server and 6-8 members join and fly a cross country flight. we always debrief those and talk about the decision making. it gets everyone involved juiced up for spring.
> >
> > the formula is the same in your example as mine. there needs to be equipment available, and mentors available. one reason we see people getting into cross country at harris hill is because there are several people who go on a regular basis. it creates a cross country environment. tim welles (W3) is an ironman and flies more regularly, and and in poorer weather, than most. i think it takes a catalyst in that regard. you need people who can shepherd and motivate others.
>

> HHSC is not the only one doing this.....
>
> Valley Soaring in Middletown, NY (where I fly) does similar.
>
> It started back in the '70's with the commercial operation (also called Valley Soaring) by helping out "kids".
> Basically, work a day, get a flight.
> Some regulars added some money to a "pot" to help offset some of the costs as well.
> This operation was started by Hank Nixon, his wife Dianne & Herb Reilly until it was turned into a club.
> Hank & I own SGS-1-26 SN 002 which we let juniors use for "free". They cut the grass in the tiedown, wash the glider, etc.
> Junior members at VS pay lower dues and tow rates. Instruction is also a lower rate.
>
> Once they get some more flying time, there are quite a few pilots that fly cross country and will lead other pilots around and help out.
> We also take people for cross country in a ASK-21 from our field as well as at contests so they can get a better idea of what goes on.
>
> During the summer, we try to have at least one picnic/month so the "none flying" members of a family can come out and see some of what the "flying member" does for the day.
>
> All of this has been modeled after Euro clubs and tweaked a bit for our site.
>
> Maybe Sean just has not seen some of what IS going on in clubs/operations in the US.
>

> PS, yes, I've flown at HHSC lots of times. Many times for the Snowbird as well as contests held there.
>
> PPS, I started flying there in the early '70's, so the current club is the 3rd entity I've flown with at the same airport.

Fix some typos....

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-4, ND wrote:

> Morning Sean,
>
> I think your comments about mirroring European soaring clubs definitely has some merit. At Harris Hill, I think a huge thing for our club is that we have a discus CS, and a Duo Discus, as well as a number of pilots who are active in cross country as a baseline. Even if your father/grandfather is not involved in this case, you still end up with access to high performance equipment, and people to guide you along.
>
> my first cross country was with Roy McMaster in our duo. after about 5-7 cross country flights on my own, i flew a HUGE flight (for me at the time) with Tim Welles and he offered some pointers. i did the flying, he critiqued, and i saw that if i made the right decisions i could go fly cross country all afternoon too.
>
> also, Harris Hill offers two gliders to junior members free of hourly charge: the discus CS and the SGS 1-34. for those reasons, we are able to expose our junior members to flying and make it very attractive to them from a cost standpoint. so we're getting a younger crowd involved. we have four members under 25 right now who have completed silver badges, and several more who are on their way with one or two of the legs done. The majority of them aren't from soaring families. bottom line, make it affordable, and give them access to the equipment. No way could my dad have afforded normal flying lessons for me when i was a teen. Harris Hill offered instructional flights when i was junior 13 years ago for 3 bucks a flight. that was offset with commercial rides, and subsidized by senior member rates.
>
> As far as drawing adults to the cross country aspect, it needs to be turnkey, people need the have the ability to advance quickly if they want so that they don't get bored. a good training program is helpful. we do instruction every Wednesday night during the flying months so that senior members can get focused weekly instruction. in the winter we do a condor night, where we set up a server and 6-8 members join and fly a cross country flight. we always debrief those and talk about the decision making. it gets everyone involved juiced up for spring.
>
> The formula is the same in your example as mine. there needs to be equipment available, and mentors available. one reason we see people getting into cross country at Harris Hill is because there are several people who go on a regular basis. it creates a cross country environment. Tim Welles (W3) is an ironman and flies more regularly, and and in poorer weather, than most. i think it takes a catalyst in that regard. you need people who can shepherd and motivate others.

************

[Sarah Arnold]

I am one of those few female glider racers and am friends with the others. I don't think any of us would appreciate being scored separately. Junior classing makes sense because the young ones have had a limited number of years to learn the sport. I'm interested in flying Women's World Gliding Championships because of the prestige a win would bring the US Team not because I think women belong in a different category.

Sarah Arnold
(the infamous racing pilot)

[Frank Whiteley]

Speaking of the Interclub League
http://www.midweekherald.co.uk/sport/devon_and_somerset_gliding_soar_to_new_heights_in_inter_club_league_1_4198025

[Sean Fidler]

Hmmmmm. Last I checked, I did not see a large crowd of US female pilots who compete with the men. SKA is a fairly unique person! We need dozens more!

The reason why women are not competing in US contests is an interesting discussion point (new thread?). It is not a physical thing of course. In fact women have a physical advantage (in addition to their mental/emotional strengths!). It's also not a financial thing. So, what is it? I believe that both Europe and Australia have far more women competing in contests.

Personally, I would think that if: A) women's soaring was to grow in the US someday and B) 5-10 women were attending a future US contest...many of those women would appreciate a separate women's classification in the same way juniors would. Maybe I am wrong but I would definitely want to hear from "other women" as well when/if they hopefully materialize some day.

Remember, I am proposing an overall scoring for everyone (as normal) but individual clasifications (per suggestions) for beginner, various SSA ranking levels and of course feminine.

IOW, if we magically had 3 women at a contest in 2016, they should get a gold, silver and bronze medal no matter what their overall scores happen to be! They should be celebrated along with Jr's and beginners! Building numbers these competition categories (beginners, juniors and women) at our future events Is FAR MORE important to the US Soaring community than overall winners.

We simply have to do something significant to stem this tide of shrinking or stale numbers. It costs nothing to try these ideas. If it fails, so what? Let's not continue to sit on our hands in almost every aspect of our organization. We need some big ideas and some serious innovation. The sport of soaring is incredible...we need to market it and compete. Simple as that.

Just my opinion of course!

Sean
7T

[Waveguru]

Maybe the answer is to quit keeping score at all and everybody should get a trophy the way it is in American schools today? ;^)

Boggs

[Tango Eight]

You can't even stay on your own topic :-).

I'm much more interested in promoting XC. Competition is just one little piece of the whole.

People are just lazy. That's my opinion. My evidence includes the fact that one can join my own club (including one time initiation) for about 1/2 what most of us pay to insure *old* gliders and (when qualified) get the keys to an HpH 304c. Yep, a real, live 40+:1 glass slipper, equipped for basic XC and with a serviceable trailer too. The number of people who grab this opportunity is astonishingly small. Those that do almost invariably get smitten with the sport and move whatever pieces of heaven and earth are required to procure their own high performance glider (leaving the 304 available for the next convert!).

Most people, most *pilots* just don't want to put in the work.

It simply isn't possible to provide more encouragement than we already do.

Evan Ludeman / T8

[Sean Fidler]

No! I'm not saying that at all!!!

[Sean Fidler]

I can't disagree that a majority of people are generally pretty lazy. They generally want to be the master of the "sport"' or "activity" in minutes or hours, not months or years.

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 1:20:03 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I can't disagree that a majority of people are generally pretty lazy. They generally want to be the master of the "sport"' or "activity" in minutes or hours, not months or years.

They also want to feel assured of a predictable favorable result pretty much all the time. That is, I think, why the list of people who want to go XC with me is very long, yet those that go by themselves later is much much shorter.
The worry about landing out is a really big deterrent, even where we fly in an area with a lot of airports to land on.
The best we can do is find the live ones and bring them along.
UH

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 12:41:16 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
>
> It simply isn't possible to provide more encouragement than we already do.
>
> Evan Ludeman / T8

I forgot to mention: among the inducements is a chance to go fly the White Mountains -- the only real alpine soaring to be found in the Eastern US -- with airport landing options the whole way. It's the best XC milk run in the known universe.

Easy day: http://tinyurl.com/poj7tlk

Less easy day: http://tinyurl.com/ptx3lle

But objectively, we're the weirdos. Most people don't want to do this.

Evan Ludeman / T8

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 12:41:16 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:

Evan, your club's approach is working! Why are you saying people are too lazy? Some got converted. For such a small club you probably have higher conversion rate than most clubs.
Andrzej

[RR]

I think it has been said, but if the culture of the club is an XC culture, then you will fledge more pilots. I fly with the Greater Boston Soaring Club. We are a large club, and have many regular XC pilots. When I started to fly with GBSC I joined the board, and made a few policy suggestions that would promote XC in the club. A fellow board member commented, "Promote XC, don't we discourage XC". And I think he was right, our policy's made it difficult, at the time I think I was the only cross country pilot on the board. Even with that headwind, we have made significant improvements in policy, and training. We have far to go, but the trailer trash end of the field is getting larger all the time.

Things we have done that helped.

Set up a XC mentor "dating service". If you are new, don't know the folks that are rigging their own gliders, I would match up a member that expressed interest in learning XC and matched them up with an experienced pilot. They could ask questions, perhaps get some encouragement etc.

We have 3 encampments each year, 2 "somewhat" focused on badge flying. One at Mifflin, and one at Mt Washington. A place like Mifflin where the off field options are so good, can ease the fear of leaving the nest.

We have put on a winter (or early spring) XC ground school. We put on a two evening presentation. The usual stuff, thermaling, fly to the next airport, call it home, repeat. Roy Bourgeois has a great off field landing review, with shots from the air, and on the ground for field selection.

I have done some lead follow, I now have a piece of a duo, and expect to do some dual.

Things I want to do:

Not all of our instructors are XC pilots, this is fine, but the elemental skills for XC can be taught locally, and I hope to put together a series of lessons, thermaling, gliding, a very local 25k triangle for confidence building, and an intentional land out at a nearby airport. I agree with Hank, that the fear of land outs is very high. In power flying, you end up at other airports all the time, but if you have learned to fly at our club, new pilots only fly from our local field. Landing "out", even at an airport is scary.

But the club culture is at the heart of this. If the club encourages advancement of your flying skills at least to silver, then that is a good place to decide if farther is for you. For some it is not, for others, they may move to competition, or records. But the bottom line, we have seen far more conversion to private ownership, and XC than we had in the past. You need to keep helping those along, not all will want to go, but those that do, tend to stick with it...

[pstrzel]

As a relative noob to the sport of soaring with just a handful of PIC hrs, perhaps my input may shed some light on this issue.

We need to accept that there nothing unique in soaring that isn't encountered in learning other challenging endeavors. Soaring doesn't lack excitement so we needn't be apologists for it. Learning a difficult skill is what lacks excitement for majority of people and that's nothing new. What's new is perhaps that more people are looking for easy fun. People will walk 26.2 miles and claim that they ran a marathon, but few are willing to train for many years and suffer the injuries to run it in under 3 hrs. Truth: there's no walking through aviation training and flying cross-country solo requires years of experience. Do prospective students know that or do they expect instant gratification coming into it?

It is a fact of life that not everyone who's inspired by a masterful performance (or a Youtube soaring video) has what it takes to become a master themselves. Think of a kid that listens to a concert pianist and wants to take piano lessons without considering how many scales and arpeggios they'll have to suffer through during the following 10 years. Those with talent and perseverance will get there, but the majority of students will move on to easier pursuits. Before my own checkride last year I had a conversation with another student. He seemed uninspired and to paraphrase, was "still waiting for the fun part". The pursuit of mastery isn't always fun. Mastery itself is always fun, but that has to be earned. I have frequently questioned my own desire to pursue soaring starting with the first few patterns to the more recent unsatisfying flights. Earlier this year I was still waiting for the fun part. That is until last month when I had what I would call a breakthrough flight, a glimpse of what the "masters" experience. It took perseverance.

In conclusion, soaring is not poetry. If fact, a student will quickly learn that initially if feels more like rap. If it is to be considered a legitimate sport, perhaps we should learn from other sports and provide students with mentoring and coaching, not just instruction. Explain to them all the steps involved and help them set realistic goals and create a plan for attaining them, and yes, help inspire them when they are discouraged. Cross-country flight or competition is the big prize and the end of a journey. If athletes are to be attracted to this sport the slogan needs to change from "Soaring - the poetry of aviation" to something like "Soaring - have you got what it takes to fly a plane without an engine?".

[Tango Eight]

The puzzle is that there isn't more demand.

Otoh, we're churning out CFIGs right now, a trio of which are in the process of founding a new club in Maine. I guess that counts for something too.

It is true that despite being only about two dozen active members, we can instruct & mentor just about anything.

-Evan

[benhir...@gmail.com]

I'm a newly licensed glider pilot, and I can't wait to start flying XC. I recently restarted my training after an 8 year hiatus. One of the things that motivated me to get back into soaring is the development of electric sustainers. Having the ability to flip a switch and be confident that the motor will start every time makes XC way less intimidating to me. The risk, and more importantly, the massive hassle of a landout is a real turn-off, personally. I know that I will still have to be prepared for the possibility of a landout even with an e-sustainer, but it seems improbable enough to ease my anxiety about it.

Granted, I don't have a glider with an electric sustainer available to me right now, but after I gain some XC experience with my local club, one may be in my future.

Perhaps if/when electric sustainers become more common in soaring clubs, more people will be willing to fly XC. They may even bring in a new class of people to the sport who would be too afraid to try even local soaring due to the lack of self-propulsion.

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

Perhaps if you crewed for someone and helped by doing a retrieve or 2 you would find out that while inconvenient(you're gonna be late for dinner), very few turn out to be a "massive hassle". Out of the many more than 100 field landings I have made, only a couple would fall in that category. Many were pleasant interesting experiences that allowed me to meet a bunch of very nice folks.
UH

[David Hirst]

>If it is to be considered a legitimate sport, perhaps we should learn from other sports and provide students with mentoring and coaching, not just instruction. Explain to them all the steps involved and help them set realistic goals and create a plan for attaining them, and yes, help inspire them when they are discouraged.

That there, ladies and gents, is an encapsulation of a lot of the prior discussion.

I'm not sure that a passion for XC is "innate" - people often get the gliding bug only after their first flight. Similarly, the passion for XC often comes only after you've been shown the possibilities. It's a series of stepping stones with no true ending; some of the hops are bigger than others and sometimes the waters seem deeper and scarier than they really are. For those instances, friends, mentors and coaches will get people onto the next stone and the next challenge. Sometimes you just need to add more stones to lessen the length of the leaps.

DH

[Sean Fidler]

Agreed! Spark plugs! One on one personal relationships and true mentorship.

The other side of the coin is the type of person with the perseverance and drive to seek out the mentor. It's one thing to try and motivate and inspire someone, it's a completely different thing to have them ID YOU as a source of help, knowledge and motivation and make it easy for you to do so. A pleasure to help them...etc.

But those are very rare birds indeed.

[Frank Whiteley]

My start was when the chief instructor handed me a barograph and said to smoke it right away as it was a good day to fly 50k. I wasn't given the opportunity to say no.

Frank Whiteley

[Sean Fidler]

Great post! I still would love to see something significant attempted in terms of marketing (new pilots, cross country pilots, etc)? Perhaps a website and YouTube channel specifically focused on these demographics? Bruno's stuff is awesome with a great following, but if I was brand new I think Inkight be terrified. I think we need something with that much appeal but focused on the baby steps from new pilot to early cross country learning.

I think I am going to bite the bullet and get my CFIG against the strong advise not to do it ;-).

I think teaching "beginner" cross country is what I would be most interested in. That really doesn't exist in my area.

Maybe I'll go to Chilhowee and knock that rating out. How long does it take to get a CFIG?

Sincerely,

Sean

[ND]

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 3:45:36 PM UTC-4, uncl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 3:25:06 PM UTC-4, benhir...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I'm a newly licensed glider pilot, and I can't wait to start flying XC. I recently restarted my training after an 8 year hiatus. One of the things that motivated me to get back into soaring is the development of electric sustainers. Having the ability to flip a switch and be confident that the motor will start every time makes XC way less intimidating to me. The risk, and more importantly, the massive hassle of a landout is a real turn-off, personally. I know that I will still have to be prepared for the possibility of a landout even with an e-sustainer, but it seems improbable enough to ease my anxiety about it.
> >
> > Granted, I don't have a glider with an electric sustainer available to me right now, but after I gain some XC experience with my local club, one may be in my future.
> >
> > Perhaps if/when electric sustainers become more common in soaring clubs, more people will be willing to fly XC. They may even bring in a new class of people to the sport who would be too afraid to try even local soaring due to the lack of self-propulsion.

i would tend to agree with hank. and though i don't have as many land outs as him,the way i've been flying lately im hard on his heels ;)

A few comments about that. i think you are only anxious about off field landings because you haven't done one before. once you've done one (or a few) they become a non issue if you plan ahead properly. they can also be the most fun and interesting landings you make. i'll also concur with hank that you meet some nice folks and get to go for what usually amounts to a pretty drive, with a dinner out thrown in to sweeten the deal.

Lastly--and i don't mean this adversarially-- i would caution you in your attitude towards land-outs. you have to embrace them in order to deal with them. having an engine and not worrying about it until the offhand occurance the engine doesn't start will often mean that you are completely freaked-out, and underprepared for the moment both mentally, and as far as your landing set-up is concerned. again, that was not meant to be adeversarial or condescending.

[Papa3]

Juggling a bunch of things right now, so adding thoughts in dribs-and-drabs. One of the things that's remarkable to me is the wide variation in the percentage of pilots who go cross country in different clubs from the same area. In Region 2, for example, the largest club with the best (all glass) fleet which owns its own airport and clubhouse has almost no XC activity. With over 100 members, there are maybe a half-dozen who participate in the OLC or contests. On the other hand, two of the smaller operations that share public use airports generate the same or more XC flights with maybe 1/3 the number of pilots. In other words, in the largest club, less than 10% (probably dloser to 5%) participate in XC. In a couple of medium-sized clubs, the percentage is closer to 20%. In Aero Club Albatross (which has a very long history of encouraging XC) we have about 25 pilots actively contributing flights to the OLC with maybe 60 active members. So, at least 40% of the members actively go XC. Many of those flights are in 1-26s and our 1-34.

That tells me that it's more about the environment/operation/culture and less about either great conditions, facilities, or equipment. In ACA, there is a critical mass which I think makes XC culture somewhat self-sustaining. There are dozens of field retrieves every year, so most members are used to it. It's not viewed as a hassle so much as a badge of honor. When you land, the question isn't "how long were you up" so much as "how far did you go"? We try for records, add up OLC points, and go to competitions.

I think what's missing in many clubs is one or two sparkplugs who are willing to commit to changing the culture and encouraging more XC. Think of it as a grass-roots issue rather than a systemic one. We've certainly proven that more people will go XC given a supportive environment. I think it would be very interesting if more clubs measured the "health" of their operation in terms of the percentage of people who actively participate in XC. It's my hunch that those operations would end up being more stable, active, and vibrant than those with fewer XC pilots.

Erik Mann (P3)

[BobW]

On 8/18/2015 2:33 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>> People are just lazy. That's my opinion. My evidence includes the fact
>> that one can join my own club (including one time initiation) for about
>> 1/2 what most of us pay to insure *old* gliders and (when qualified) get
>> the keys to an HpH 304c. Yep, a real, live 40+:1 glass slipper,
>> equipped for basic XC and with a serviceable trailer too. The number of
>> people who grab this opportunity is astonishingly small. Those that do
>> almost invariably get smitten with the sport and move whatever pieces of
>> heaven and earth are required to procure their own high performance
>> glider (leaving the 304 available for the next convert!).
>>
>> Most people, most *pilots* just don't want to put in the work.
>>
>> It simply isn't possible to provide more encouragement than we already
>> do.
>

> My start was when the chief instructor handed me a barograph and said to
> smoke it right away as it was a good day to fly 50k. I wasn't given the
> opportunity to say no.
>
> Frank Whiteley

What Frank described is how I got 2/3 of my Silver when I got started, i.e.
being handed ("forced") opportunities to fly with a barograph. Since then, I
can recall exactly one attempt to bag Silver Distance, which failed. Somewhere
along in there I realized soaring could provide what I was looking for from
piloting: 1) flight, and 2) continuing challenge. Considered from that
perspective, my motivation was "purely selfish." Never did "bother" to obtain
any further badge recognition.

Yet somewhere(s) along the line I began considering/looking for ways to
(choose whichever apply to your worldview): "give back," share with others,
proselytize, etc. "Know thyself" played a part in that I've long considered
myself world's worst salesman in the sense that I've little interest/ability
preaching to a disinterested - or even neutral - audience...at least not
face-to-face. Books were about it for me - one on the proselytizing front, and
one to-the-choir/"possibly-interested-general-aviation-types" audience. Never
could talk myself into going the CFIG route. Been a member of clubs that
DIScouraged and ENcouraged XC. Ignored the naysayers; followed internal
motivation; did my own thing; looked out for potential other "XC weirdos;"
tried to encourage all considering/taking lessons & suggested they'd be helped
by "knowing themselves;" pondered the mysteries of life...

Seen a lot of good thoughts in this thread, and encourage everyone who now or
periodically feels extra motivation to
spread-the-word/sell-soaring/grow-the-sport/etc./etc./etc., to do so in ways
they can support and sustain, because the truism "if no one does anything,
nothing will happen," definitely applies. If there IS "a magic bullet" to sell
soaring (and I don't think there is), it's action. There ain't no panacea
approach; arguably all sales efforts have merit; there might BE something to
the Nike approach. (Just do it!)

Keep those ideas coming, keep those internal fires stoked, do "it" when you
can while recognizing "it" doesn't have to - although it *can* or *might*
(your choice) - be a "massive lifestyle change" on your part. In other words,
just because you obtain your CFIG doesn't preclude continuing solo XC "for
yourself". Nor do you have to reinvent your club over the winter, and failing
that, consider your efforts a failure. Do what's reasonable for you and your
circumstances.

Along the way, it may help your own internal "sales motivation" if (like me)
you find active selling to be a chore, you maintain a realistic view of your
efforts and their likely and actual effects. My own proselytizing efforts have
always been motivated mostly from a sense it was the right thing to do, as
distinct from (say) expecting to fundamentally change the world in the way any
casual observer could detect, or, because I expected attaboys from fellow club
members. I consider the former unrealistic, and the latter a good way to
increase one's personal disappointment quotient...which topically circles
around to the sentiment expressed above Frank's post! So like Mr. Spock in The
Simpsons cartoon; "I'll be leaving now. My work here is done."

Bob W.

P.S. Oh didn't I?

[tenn...@gmail.com]

Hello jfitch...I would assume the reason for the decline in GA is the economy downturn worldwide over the last 10 years..but by the same token, Soaring should have increased as GA power pilots looked for another avenue...but who knows.....I have talked to several persons about the economy of soaring, and they have all been surprised at the much lower cost of a soaring club...commercial soaring operations are too expensive for many of us...but look to a club and air-time is very reasonable...

Willis Sutherland
TBSS Member
Florida

[benhir...@gmail.com]

> i would tend to agree with hank. and though i don't have as many land outs as him,the way i've been flying lately im hard on his heels ;)
>
> A few comments about that. i think you are only anxious about off field landings because you haven't done one before. once you've done one (or a few) they become a non issue if you plan ahead properly. they can also be the most fun and interesting landings you make. i'll also concur with hank that you meet some nice folks and get to go for what usually amounts to a pretty drive, with a dinner out thrown in to sweeten the deal.
>
> Lastly--and i don't mean this adversarially-- i would caution you in your attitude towards land-outs. you have to embrace them in order to deal with them. having an engine and not worrying about it until the offhand occurance the engine doesn't start will often mean that you are completely freaked-out, and underprepared for the moment both mentally, and as far as your landing set-up is concerned. again, that was not meant to be adeversarial or condescending.

no offense taken. i don't fear landouts in terms of my ability to execute them safely. however, i don't think anyone would argue that there isn't at least a small increase in risk compared to airport landings. this sport is risky enough, and risk is what keeps some people out of it, i reckon.

i also don't doubt that there are upsides to landouts (camaraderie, etc), but the amount of time that a ground retrieve can take (some are shorter, some are very long) is the main downside. i'm a busy person, and don't look forward to spending long hours dealing with a retrieve and getting home late at night.

i'm a new pilot, so i realize i may have some mis-perceptions about landouts. however, those who are concerned with attracting more pilots to the sport should be aware of how the uninitiated perceive the sport, so hopefully my perspective is helpful in that regard.

[Bob Pasker]

as someone who needs no additional inspiration to become an XC glider pilot (I have Silver Altitude and Silver Distance, and have flown 4.5 and 8.0 with Kempton in his ASH-25), here are the obstacles:

A glider. I either have to buy a glider and only fly out of a local airpot (Blairstown or Wurstburo), since I don't neither have a vehicle that can tow a glider nor do I have the time to tow it anywhere. Or I have to find a club that allows XC flights. I have tried to contact Blairstown numerous times, and nobody answers their email. Wurstboro is only open week-ends, and is therefore less desirable. Lastly, I can continue to rent out of commercial operations, but all of them have been fairly unwilling to let me take a glider out of the local area without substantial time in the area, with the notable except of Soaring NV.

Graduated training flights. It would be great if the locals would put up on their website some proposed training flights of increasing difficulty suited to the terrain and the typical weather of for the area. These graduated training flights should be structured around Silver Distance, Gold Distance, and Diamond Goal. For example, for Silver Distance as a triangle, there could be two practice flights, out and back to each of the other two points on the triangle, and then the third for all three points.

Dual XC flights. For those of you who have single-seat gliders, get current in a mid-performance two-seater and take people on cross-country flights. Kempton took me on two flights last month (see OLC links below), and I learned more in one hour of XC with him than I have from anyone else. You don't have to be a CFI. Any one who is ready for XC should be able to learn just from watching and asking questions.

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?flightId=-925876405
http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?flightId=-976935827

Contest training. No where have I seen any in-person training on how to actually fly a contest (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist). I would love to see a 1-hour training video that takes me through the entire process, or even a "contest training camp" (maybe the OLC camp?)

I guess this is a pretty good start.

--bob

[Martin Gregorie]

On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:19:16 -0700, pstrzel wrote:

> flying cross-country solo requires years of experience.
>

All due respect, but this is quite wrong given a suitable club culture.

A very high proportion of new solo pilots at my UK club will be flying XC
within 18 months of their first solo. Thats why the club owns two SZD
Juniors. It also owns three good standard class gliders, which are
intended for XC use by anybody with a Silver C who hasn't yet bought
their own glider.

> Do prospective students know that or do they expect instant
> gratification coming into it?
>

Instant gratification is the real problem. It is adversely affecting any
and all hobbys and sports, in short, anything that requires any more
learned skills than watching TV, texting or cracking another beer can.

Employable skills as well: why should your average numpty strain his
brain learning a profession when he 'knows' he can slide through school
and get loadsa money and as many girls as he can handle by kicking a
ball, joining a boy band or winning some reality stupid TV show? He knows
this because all the meeja and celebs say so and they can't possibly be
wrong or they wouldn't be so rich and famous.

> The pursuit of mastery isn't always fun.
>

I'd disagree: putting in the time, thought and practise to hone a complex
skill, such as soaring, can be very pleasurable. But, maybe I'm just
weird.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 4:37:23 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Maybe I'll go to Chilhowee and knock that rating out. How long does it take to get a CFIG?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Sean

Why don't you ask the Chilhowee operator/instructor (and former U.S. National champion) who keeps telling you she doesn't appreciate being scored separately in a contest just because she's a woman. :)

Recognition good; condescension bad.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

Blairstown has one of the most active cross country clubs in the US, Aero Club Albatross. They has 1-26's to do XC in. They have a 1-34, an LS-4, and an LS-3. They also base a 1-34 at Wurtsboro which is open weekends an most week days.
I run a "rookie school" at the annual Region 2 contest which involves classroom training and active mentoring. That is done in coordination with the Region 2 "Bus class" contest which is flown using trainer class 2 seaters such as ASK-21's and Grob twins.
Our club members at Valley Soaring Club in Middletown either do their Silver distance by going to Blairstown, commonly in the club 1-26 or 1-34, or by doing a closed course that uses a declared remote start and remote finish.
Lots of people fly XC from sites around an hour from NYC.
UH

[pstrzel]

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 3:51:50 PM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:19:16 -0700, pstrzel wrote:
>
> > flying cross-country solo requires years of experience.
> >
> All due respect, but this is quite wrong given a suitable club culture.
>
> A very high proportion of new solo pilots at my UK club will be flying XC
> within 18 months of their first solo.
>

Well, 1.5 years is still more than 1 year, so "years" is still technically correct. :-). I believe for the right person it can be done within a season, but goals need to be set by the individual and a road map to their attainment made available by the club. Your point about the suitable club culture is I believe the whole point of this discussion.

>
> > The pursuit of mastery isn't always fun.
> >
> I'd disagree: putting in the time, thought and practise to hone a complex
> skill, such as soaring, can be very pleasurable. But, maybe I'm just
> weird.
>

This may be semantics more than a disagreement as "isn't always" is in the same category as "can be".

Cheers,

Piotr S.

[Martin Gregorie]

On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 14:49:52 -0700, Bob Pasker wrote:

> Graduated training flights. It would be great if the locals would put up
> on their website some proposed training flights of increasing difficulty
> suited to the terrain and the typical weather of for the area. These
> graduated training flights should be structured around Silver Distance,
> Gold Distance, and Diamond Goal. For example, for Silver Distance as a
> triangle, there could be two practice flights, out and back to each of
> the other two points on the triangle, and then the third for all three
> points.
>

Just wanna pick one nit: hope you don't mind. You can't use a 50km closed
course for Silver C because its essentially awarded for a straight flight
of 50km, presumably to get you used to going out of gliding range from
home. Without that restriction you'd get people drawing a roughly
equilateral 50km triangle centred on the home airfield. But that wouldn't
really be an XC at all because its furthest points are barely 12 miles
from home.

Is the 100km diploma recognised in America? If so, just double the
triangle size and you've got a nice sized closed course for a new XC
pilot to tackle after the Silver distance. Besides, 50 km to gold 300 is
a bit of a leap. Even an older glider can do 100 km in 2 hours or less so
changing weather conditions probably isn't an issue, but even a mid-range
toy (Pegase or ASW-20) is going to need 4 - 4.5 hours to do 300 km in the
hands of a relative novice and so dealing with changing conditions, due
to both the time of day and to flying into different parts of the
country, become relevant.

But I agree that having a set of recognised club tasks is a good idea,
and even better if a few of them have a perpetual trophy for the fastest
flight during the year.

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

Unless there has been a change that I am not aware of, one can declare a remote start point, fly to a remote finish. and return to the home base. Altitude loss is calculated from release height to height at finish point. The task some of our folks have done for this turns out to require about a 130k flight which seems about right if one is flying modern glass.
UH

[son_of_flubber]

I'm forever indebted to the CFI-Gs who proved that with enough patience (and $s) almost anyone can learn to fly a glider.

CFI-Gs who don't have the skills or ambition to go farther than glide slope from the airport influence their students.

A highly respected CFI-G says "I NEVER want to land out" (to budding pilots gathered around the picnic table). "That's just dumb. Why would you get off tow below 1500 AGL? Why take that risk?"

Train CFI-Gs in XC, and train CFI-Gs how to develop those skills in students.

[Bob Whelan]

On 8/18/2015 6:21 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I'm forever indebted to the CFI-Gs who proved that with enough patience
> (and $s) almost anyone can learn to fly a glider.
>
> CFI-Gs who don't have the skills or ambition to go farther than glide slope
> from the airport influence their students.
>
> A highly respected CFI-G says "I NEVER want to land out" (to budding pilots
> gathered around the picnic table). "That's just dumb. Why would you get
> off tow below 1500 AGL? Why take that risk?"

Not to be too anal about this particular situation, but for that particular
instructor's (I infer) lack of landout-related skills, I'd agree that putting
him/herself in a landout situation *would* be dumb. The trick for listeners is
to be sufficiently knowledgeable so's to understand said instructor's hidden
assumptions (non-antagonistic conversation helpful?), and thus, to be able to
intelligently decide if they apply to the listener. If they don't, there's
plenty of available evidence that "all over the board" opinions about the
wisdom of XC & landouts exist in every little bit of the U.S. clubs' soaring
world to which I've ever been exposed. Entirely normal human behavior.

FWIW, so far as I know, I was the first tyro licensee to make a landout in my
first club's recent history...adequately and safely taught by an instructor,
as I subsequently learned while retrieving him from a landout, who'd yet to
make *his* first landout. The club back then had plenty of flagpole sitters,
and a few seriously-beyond-my-newbie-skill-set ridge runners. (My flight
examiner then held the world O&R record.) It was clear to me that each pilot
chose his/her level of soaring participation, and such an approach seemed
entirely normal to me; still does.

Point being, circling back to your instructor's picnic table expounding, in
the absence of some sort of enlightening conversation actually discussing
*why* an instructor feels as they expound, why would Joe Listener want to take
any of their opinions beyond those directly applying to J.L.'s growing skills,
as universal gospel? Looking back, for me it was dirt simple to distinguish
beyond instruction likely to be directly applicable to my next instructional
flight, and my instructor's opining about "the more-distant future's"
requisite, or merely desirable, skills. Even though I was convinced he could
walk on water...

Bob - genuinely curious - W.

[Dan Daly]

No change - yet. In the Sporting Code that will become effective 1 Oct 2015:

"a. SILVER DISTANCE A distance flight (as defined in 1.4.2d to 1.4.2h) to a finish or turn point at least 50 km from release or MoP stop."

Look at http://www.fai.org/igc-documents , then Sporting Code, then Next Edition.

The current SC3 allows it; if anyone wants to do it as described above, the time is now (until 30 September).

Martin, the 100 km Diploma is not recognized in North America.

2D

[Frank Whiteley]

For young pilots we, in the US, do have the Kolstad Century Awards, which can be qualifying flights for the Kolstad College Scholarship, currently $5000. Applications due September 30th.

If you ever needed a reason to mentor a junior pilot to fly cross country, you have one. FAI Silver badges or better also are qualifying flights.

http://www.ssa.org/Youth?show=blog&id=2406

Frank Whiteley

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 3:21:16 AM UTC+3, son_of_flubber wrote:
> A highly respected CFI-G says "I NEVER want to land out" (to budding pilots gathered around the picnic table). "That's just dumb. Why would you get off tow below 1500 AGL? Why take that risk?"

I have a number of times had tow pilots approach me after I landed from a multi-hour flight and ask why I got off at 800 ft or 1000 ft above launch height. Was there something wrong with the tow? No -- we flew through a big fat thermal!

I'm actually amazed, when I fly with other pilots, how many carry on through juicy thermals to the launch height they already had in their heads.

If you're flying along and suddenly the towplane shoots up above you, start counting. If the vario is now reading 10 (5 for euros) and you've counted past ten before the townplane suddenly drops away below you then just release and turn back hard.

Of course, there's increased risk of it not really working and landing back for a relight. But I can't actually think of a time when it happened to me on a day when others were successfully soaring.

One of the closest was when I was visiting the US and found a club near Joliet IL. Jumped in a Duo (a type I hadn't flown before, though I knew the Janus pretty well) with an instructor and surprised the heck out of him by releasing at 700 ft AGL. It very nearly didn't work, with about 15 min of scratching at around launch height. But then I got away to 4000 ft and we went on a nice tour of the area. (there was never any question of not being able to make it back, of course)

[Nigel Pocock]

Some random thoughts.
Our club has a briefing every day that covers weather, Notams etc. but
also briefs inexperienced pilots on cross country. This might be a task
with several turning points within gliding distance of the home airfield,
up to a 500k task for diamond distance.

We also have the "Compass" scheme where an experienced cross
country pilot will fly with you a high performance 2 seater. You can
learn a lot flying with an ex world champion in a Nimbus 3dt!.

The club culture is cross country orientated. Three weeks ago we had
over 80 club gliders on a club grid to fly cross country (on top of
normal training flights) We do field landing practice in a Faulke motor
glider that allows an instructor to put the pupil in a situation such as
"OK we have run out of lift choose a suitable field an set up a circuit to

land".
Fear of outlandings.
Once a year one of our members who is a farmer invites the club to
use one of his fields for outlanding practice. We take a 2 seater and
tug and do training flights with the altimeter obscured. This
encourages circuit planning and approaches in a strange environment.

Being a club it is quite a sociable environment. I was sat at a table
outside the club house the other day nattering to some cadets, some
members in their 80s still flying vintage gliders, some low hours cross
country pilots (like myself,) and 2 world champions! It is great to learn
from such wide ranging experiences.

[Martin Gregorie]

On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 17:17:46 -0700, unclhank wrote:

> Unless there has been a change that I am not aware of, one can declare a
> remote start point, fly to a remote finish. and return to the home base.
>

Yes, of course. A Silver distance can be done as you describe *provided
that* it has a 50km leg, which is all that counts for Silver.

I thought the post I replied to could be read as if flying a closed task
totalling 50km would count as Silver Distance but it would not.

> Altitude loss is calculated from release height to height at finish
> point. The task some of our folks have done for this turns out to
> require about a 130k flight which seems about right if one is flying
> modern glass.
>

Too true. The prospective Silver Badge holder should read the rulebook
before planning any of the three elements, but always remebering that the
Silver C can be and has been completed in one flight!

[Martin Gregorie]

On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 18:39:42 -0700, Dan Daly wrote:

> Martin, the 100 km Diploma is not recognized in North America.
>

Thanks for the clarification. I think its a useful sized task for a
fledging XC pilot, so its something that a club might want to use.

My club has a 109km triangle with easily recognised TPs and a 200km O/R
which both have annually awarded cups. Both are into the prevailing wind
from our field and both are commonly used by early XC pilots.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

For a few airports/groups in Eastern PA, North NJ & southern NY, we have:

http://gcup.tophatsoaring.org/GCUP/gc_home.php
Basic rules.... http://gcup.tophatsoaring.org/GCUP/gc_rules.php
North flights... http://gcup.tophatsoaring.org/scoring/g-cup_north_scoresheet.xml
South flights.... http://gcup.tophatsoaring.org/scoring/g-cup_south_scoresheet.xml
Flight comments..... http://gcup.tophatsoaring.org/GCUP/gc_flights.php .... use the arrow button to see comments from previous days...

This is good, lots of places to land, tend to fly in groups, add's a "bit of competition" between different groups/airports (we fly for individual points as well as group points).

As to "competition training", years ago in our region, we had a "little guys meet". It was divided into "silver" & "gold" based on experience of the pilot & sailplane performance.
It was 2 weekends in a row, had a briefing in the morning, turnpoints, cameras (yes, a long time ago), landing cards, etc., just like a real contest.
The difference was that it was mostly for fun (no national ranking points) but had everything a real contest did.

The other "training" was to crew for a number of contests. You did everything a pilot did (except fly) so you went to meetings/briefs, rigged, loaded cameras, discussed the days potential, gridded, launched, kept tabs on "your pilot", info submittal at the end of the day or retrieves.
This meant you had some exposure to the "contest workings" before having to fly the course.

Yes, I crewed for ~7 years (regionals & nationals) with 2+ contests/year and also flew the "little guys" contest a few times.

[pbx...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 6:21:16 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:

> A highly respected CFI-G says "I NEVER want to land out" (to budding pilots gathered around the picnic table). "That's just dumb. Why would you get off tow below 1500 AGL? Why take that risk?"

I've overheard this and worse many times. In one case the CFI-G pointed at a respected contest pilot and said, "Competition flying and XC is just insane."

It made me furious. I wanted to order him to get a Diamond Badge before his next renewal or find another line of work.

[Dan Marotta]

As a newbie I was encouraged to fly in the TSA (Texas Soaring Association) Labor Day lap races in Sports Class.  On the practice day, I was a couple of miles outbound when a woman who'd started with me was finishing!  After I landed, I asked her how she flew so fast.  She told me not to circle so much.

The first race day was a small triangle with a 50+ KM leg so I declared a Silver Distance and was careful to take pictures for both the turn points and for the badge leg.  The quadrants were different!  I achieved the badge leg and, in fact, took first place in Sports.  One more tug on the line which set the hook even deeper.

--
Dan Marotta

[Sean Fidler]

One big glaring issue I see in regards to encouraging XC is that a short cross country flight is not a requirement for earning a glider private rating (or a commercial rating for that matter)?

If we let students earn their "glider rating" purely by flying within gliding range of the airport, we unsurprisingly get a large portion of "rated" glider pilots who become very comfortable not venturing outside of gliding range of the airport. This is really no surprise, is it?

"Train how you fight, fight how you train..."

If students (and their instructors), as part of their training, never have to truly think about, plan or execute XC skills are we not setting them up for XC failure? More importantly, our CFIGs can happily exists as CFIGs without any skill, experience or desire for cross country flight! You can get a CFIG rating and keep it today without ever having ventured outside of "gliding range" of the airport! In fact, many CFIGs openly discourage XC flight as irresponsible, etc. Land outs are bad...mmm-Kay! The same goes for most FAA glider "examiners(?)." This is incredible to me and probably a little frustrating to many of us.

Many (most?, but not all!) glider "instructors" simply never learn XC skills and therefore never really teach it (or meaningfully encourage it). They often don't have a great LOVE for cross country. They often don't understand it. Many see glider flight close to the airport as normal and how it "should" be. Many are not passionate about moving their students towards cross country. Obviously, these glider "instructors" are not the greatest "spark-plugs" for preparing new glider pilots to get into the more advanced levels of the sport of soaring (XC). In certain cases they are "allowed" to actively discourage developing cross country skills (that's dangerous, etc). They know who they are.

This broken dynamic is a major problem that we face with soaring today. It is at least part of the reason why we are seeing fewer new pilots joining us on cross country's.

If I was "king" ;-) I would fundamentally change this FAA glider instruction dynamic.

1) Students would have to plan for and complete a short 50km cross country as part of the flight training process. Instructors would have to truly teach this XC skill, and help the student practice it! This short XC would be a required element. The student would not have to do this solo. Waivers for instruction in difficult terrain (why get flight training here?) or poor weather (why get glider training in the winter?) would be allowed, but in general XC would be an important highlight of the glider flight training experience (vs something that is just glanced over). Just like the long cross country is a highlight of a private power rating, the XC element of the glider rating would be the most memorable (and inspirational) for the student! If I remember correctly the long cross country (power) is done both with an instructor and solo! Why is this short XC not at least a requirement with the instructor with gliders? It makes no sense to me. Even a 20 km cross country would be better than nothing.

2) CFIGs would need to compete a 100km cross country (with a student or solo) every 2 years to remain current. This would need to be verified like a silver badge is today with witnesses, etc. Period! No exceptions. You either love the sport of soaring (XC) and are competent at it OR you are not. We need CFIGs to be ambassadors for cross country soaring and truly love it. Don't tell me...SHOW ME! Prove it.

3) FAA examiners would also need to have a 100km cross country every 2 years. They need to be able to evaluate the students ability to understand cross country soaring in the oral examination. Without some minimum cross country experience themselves, this is a total pushover.

I'll retreat to my bunker for the fallout this post will create! ;-). But I have to say we need some changes in this area of the sport.

Sean

[Sarah]

You're very lucky to have had the support of a big club. Our club is smaller, and there's only a handful of us that fly X/C at the moment.

There's nothing else as convincing for showing you it's possible as other's doing it. The OLC is nice for this too, but in-person same-day is more fun.

> I was a couple of miles outbound when a woman who'd started
> with me was finishing!  After I landed, I asked her how she flew so
> fast.  She told me not to circle so much.

You mean... a "female"? ;) Awesome.

-- the other "Sarah A" in MN

[Dan Marotta]

Yes, a female.  Sharon Smith.  I wonder if she's still flying.

--
Dan Marotta