pik 20b
Moto12345
Does anyone have experience with the PIK 20? How does it thermal in light
conditions. does it climb well. I like the l/d but I don't know what it's
airfoil does for climbing. Does the aircraft have any bad habits? I like the
idea of no gel coat. I haven't flown a flapped glider yet but I hear its a
slower approach and steeper. I would appreciate any comments.
James Tsillas
Pluses:
Low cost (relatively), very durable finish, strong construction (esp.
carbon fiber models), good performance, lighter than most 15 meter
fibgerglass and climbs better than most as a result, easy to fly (I
transitioned from a Pilatus B4 with only 60 hours total glider time),
lots of leg room, low energy landing due to flaps, can thermal very well
(at 40 knots with 30degrees of banks and +8degrees flaps - for weak
conditions/ at 43 knots with 30 degrees of bank and +4 flaps for
stronger conditions), great visibility during landing (due to node-down
pitch with landing flaps).
Minuses:
A/B models have no dive brakes but rely on flaps for landing (this is
only an issue during transition), poor aeleron effectiveness at low
speed esp. when using positive flaps (this can be overcome by using
negative flaps and practice), manual control hookups all around, narrow
cockpit (not much shoulder room), has a reputation for poor rain/bug
performance compared to some others
I bought one very recently so I can't give "long term" ownership
impressions but the above is what I noticed/heard so far. Expect
performance to be 38-39 L/D. This won't win contests but it will give
you lots of "reach" for fun flying. The one I bought has the original
finish which is in great condition except for some trailer scratching. A
friend owns a PIK-20A and leaves it tied down outside for much of the
spring/summer with only some canvas covers (the finish is not gel-coat
and holds up well in the sun). If you are in the market for one I
suggest getting one with the aeleron/flaps interconnect installed as
this helps a great deal to maintain ealeron effectiveness on the ground
and also helps some in performance at high speed. Transition to the PIK
can be easy but get a good cockpit checkout from an instructoer
experienced in landing flaps only gliders (such as HP, SGS-1-35, C70).
-Jim.
--
____________
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| / \ | * Jim Tsillas - Principal Software Engineer *
| / ** \ | * Ascend Communications, Inc. *
| / **** \ | * 1 Robbins Road, Westford MA 01886 *
| / ** \ | * (978) 952-1382 jim.t...@ascend.com *
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A S C E N D
Gary O'Neill
James Tsillas <jts...@ccs.neu.edu> wrote in article
<JTSILLA.98...@atlas.ccs.neu.edu>...
>
> Pluses:
>
> Low cost (relatively), very durable finish, strong construction (esp.
> carbon fiber models), good performance, lighter than most 15 meter
> fibgerglass and climbs better than most as a result, easy to fly (I
> transitioned from a Pilatus B4 with only 60 hours total glider time),
> lots of leg room, low energy landing due to flaps, can thermal very well
> (at 40 knots with 30degrees of banks and +8degrees flaps - for weak
> conditions/ at 43 knots with 30 degrees of bank and +4 flaps for
> stronger conditions), great visibility during landing (due to node-down
> pitch with landing flaps).
>
> Minuses:
>
> A/B models have no dive brakes but rely on flaps for landing (this is
> only an issue during transition), poor aeleron effectiveness at low
> speed esp. when using positive flaps (this can be overcome by using
> negative flaps and practice), manual control hookups all around, narrow
> cockpit (not much shoulder room), has a reputation for poor rain/bug
> performance compared to some others
>
>
>If you are in the market for one I suggest getting one with the
aeleron/flaps >interconnect installed as
> this helps a great deal to maintain ealeron effectiveness on the ground
> and also helps some in performance at high speed.
I have a friend who has a Pik 20 and I am asking if anyone has or has
seen a pik with winglets and the performance differences.
If anyone has any knowledge of the (easy-hard) installation it would be
appreciated.
Where would you buy the interconnect kits described above?
gary
cuf...@atl.mindspring.com
moto...@aol.com (Moto12345) wrote:
My Partner and I have had our '20b (pre-carbon) for over a year. It
is a nice flying ship. It thermals well at the +8 setting, and
between thermals - it goes! Our water system is non-functioning due
to a shot dump valve, so I can't speak to wet performance.
Transitioning to flap-only landings has been the hardest part for us.
The low energy approach and nose-down attitudes are really handy, but
we've had our share of bounces. The cockpit work load goes up when
dealing with the flaps on take-off as well. Make sure you get plenty
of flap advice from those with experience before your maiden flight.
Rigging is relatively easy, even without automatic hook-ups.
Maitainance has not been a problem. There is a big AD concerning
aileron counter-weights due every couple of hundred hours or so, you
might want to check into that. The paint job is holding up
beautifully.
Bottom line: It's not an _easy_ ship to fly. She requires a lot of
finesse, but she's worth it.....The dollar value is excellent.
Good luck and happy landings.
Tim
Alex Ferrer
I've owned a Pik20B (20PE) for the last 3 years (about 200 hours in N-Texas
weather) ...
This is what I have to say for my experience on it :
The Pik is a very nice plane. It thermals beatifully with a little flap and
about 50mph, I have climbed at the same rate with glass & canvas planes. I have
thermaled in as little as 260 fpm (min sink is about 220) and on 1000+fpm during
the summer seasons. It flies great and is very well manered, stalls are mild
and with plenty of warning, the cockpit is quiet and very roomy.
About the L/D The book says 38:1 but think 36 is more like it.. I guess the
wings are not in optimum shape and I could do a better job with the tape.
About the landings.. if you have not flown a flapped glider (with no spoilers)
the landing is quite a workout at least until you get used to point the nose
directly down to the field.
You can crank 5 turns on the flap lever, I use the first 3 as flaps and the last
2 are pretty much a spoiler.
whith full flaps the plane is pretty much going straight down (important: watch
your speed)
I have landed it on pretty short fields, and I got to say the wheel brakes are
worthless.. (at least mine are) & I heard that most Pik's are like that..
My Pik has no tail wheel, so I if I got to stop in a hurry I usually put
positive flaps as soon as the wheel touches the ground and quickly dig the tail
in the ground. it should stop in less than 200 ft
Other negative point for the Pik, is that you need at least 2 people to take it
apart and definetly 3 to put it back together!
So far I love it.
alx.
Nick Leaton
Moto12345 wrote:
>
> Does anyone have experience with the PIK 20? How does it thermal in light
> conditions. does it climb well. I like the l/d but I don't know what it's
> airfoil does for climbing. Does the aircraft have any bad habits? I like the
> idea of no gel coat. I haven't flown a flapped glider yet but I hear its a
> slower approach and steeper. I would appreciate any comments.
Performance when wet or buggy isn't very good.
--
Nick
Krister Engvoll
> Moto12345 wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have experience with the PIK 20? How does it thermal in light
> > conditions. does it climb well. I like the l/d but I don't know what it's
> > airfoil does for climbing. Does the aircraft have any bad habits? I like the
> > idea of no gel coat. I haven't flown a flapped glider yet but I hear its a
> > slower approach and steeper. I would appreciate any comments.
>
--
I have never flown one, but flown with or against several. They climb very well,
but are less impressive when flying straight. Typically any PIK20 will outclimb
me and the Jantar std.3 somewhat, and then I will outglide it with the Jantar
(with some margin too) when heading for the next thermal.
If rain or ice is encountered, the PIK20 falls out of the sky like a rock.
I once flew alongside one at 1800m, we were flying in the weak lift along a
convergence line, just below cloudbase we caught some ice, 2-3mm at the leading
edge. I was flying an LS4 and felt no difference, was still at 1800m when he
landed, 3 or 4 minutes later.
The engine version seems like a bargain for a motorglider.
Btw. The Jantar is also polyurethane painted. Seems like a better plane to me, but
possibly more expensive.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Krister Engvoll
Laboratoriet for Radiologisk Datering
Sem Sælandsvei 5
7034 Trondheim
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tlf. jobb 73 59 33 11
tlf. priv 73 88 88 15, mobilsvar 924 10 704
e-mail: eng...@phys.ntnu.no
http://www.phys.ntnu.no/~engvoll
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Jean Lapierre
Moto12345 <moto...@aol.com> a écrit dans l'article
<19980101160...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> Does anyone have experience with the PIK 20? How does it thermal in light
> conditions. does it climb well. I like the l/d but I don't know what it's
> airfoil does for climbing. Does the aircraft have any bad habits? I like
the
> idea of no gel coat. I haven't flown a flapped glider yet but I hear its
a
> slower approach and steeper. I would appreciate any comments.
>
I have a PIK20B and it flys very well. It is not a glider for a beginner as
the transition to flaps requires enough experience in flying and good
coaching. Once airborne the PIK flys by itself, thermals are easy to center
and properly flown it will outclimb most of the other gliders.
Landing is fantastic but requires practice. Short landings are easy I would
recommend to a new PIK pilot to do many take off and landing consecutively
to get the feel for these maneuvers.
With water it is a fantastic glider and will follow or lead the best, very
stable and comfortable.
2 person are sufficient to rig and derigg the glider.
Jean Lapierre
PIK20B Bravo Mike
gwoo...@gmail.com
> > conditions. does it climb well. I like the l/d but I don't know what it's
> > airfoil does for climbing. Does the aircraft have any bad habits? I like the
> > idea of no gel coat. I haven't flown a flapped glider yet but I hear its a
> > slower approach and steeper. I would appreciate any comments.
Don Johnstone
>On Saturday, January 3, 1998 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, Alex Ferrer
wrote:
>> I've owned a Pik20B (20PE) for the last 3 years (about 200
hours in
>> weather) ...
>> This is what I have to say for my experience on it :
flap
>> about 50mph, I have climbed at the same rate with glass &
canvas planes.
>> thermaled in as little as 260 fpm (min sink is about 220) and on
>> the summer seasons. It flies great and is very well manered,
stalls are
>> and with plenty of warning, the cockpit is quiet and very roomy.
guess
>> wings are not in optimum shape and I could do a better job
with the tape.
no
>> the landing is quite a workout at least until you get used to
point the
>> directly down to the field.
and
>> 2 are pretty much a spoiler.
>> whith full flaps the plane is pretty much going straight down
> watch
>> your speed)
>>=20
wheel
>> worthless.. (at least mine are) & I heard that most Pik's are like
that..
put
>> positive flaps as soon as the wheel touches the ground and
quickly dig
>> in the ground. it should stop in less than 200 ft
people to
>> apart and definetly 3 to put it back together!
>> alx.
>>=20
>> Moto12345 wrote:
>>=20
thermal in
>> > conditions. does it climb well. I like the l/d but I don't know
what
>> > airfoil does for climbing. Does the aircraft have any bad
habits? I
>> > idea of no gel coat. I haven't flown a flapped glider yet but I
hear
>> > slower approach and steeper. I would appreciate any
comments.
>
>I am wanting to buy my first glider and considering a pik 20-B. I
live
regarding what
same
a
the qualities of a housebrick. If you fly somewhere where it never
rains that will not bother you at all.
>
>
Giaco
> Does anyone have experience with the PIK 20? How does it thermal in light
> conditions. does it climb well. I like the l/d but I don't know what it's
> airfoil does for climbing. Does the aircraft have any bad habits? I like the
> idea of no gel coat. I haven't flown a flapped glider yet but I hear its a
Happy to discuss my limited experience
Graham Stanford
I soar it usually at 4 degrees of positive flap which gives me good
climbing
results and nice handling.
I find 8 degrees doesn't really add much to its performance but i am no
doubt a ham fisted individual without the finess of a more experienced
pilot
(I have about 400 hours total gliding).
However, got to say it makes me smile, it goes well (I have done a bit of
XC in it including a 300k and it does land well in small fields).
However, when I first started to fly it I tended to fly it too fast when
coming
in to land resulting in far longer landing runs than I now achieve.
There is a website called Pik 20B Kilo Golf which is a guy who owns a
bright
yellow Pik 20B which has some good tips on how to fly it.
Probably not for a low hours pilot used to air brakes but even then if you
get well briefed and take a lot of time to think about what you are doing
it
behaves very well. Shame people are put off by the lack of airbrakes.
I also agree with Don about the wet wings comment...it doesn't like rain
very much as it doesn't shed that too easily although funnily enough there
has been some work done on creating very fine sanding diagonally across
the wings to assist with spanward flow but i haven't done this on mine and
i
keep away from rain as much as possible because I prefer the sun (And
wouldn't it be nice to see some here in the UK for gliding purposes.
Cheers
Graham
Bob Holroyd
sole owner in East Yorkshire.
I agree with all the above,but suggest you read the flight report by Dick
Johnson.It was in Sailplane and Gliding in either 1975 0r 77.The issue had
a photo of an IS28 impersonating a submarine on the cover.
One word of warning,when it comes to resale they are a bit like Marmite:
love them or hate them.
I have fond memories of mine.At 08:58 07 September 2016, Graham Stanford
wrote:
>results and nice handling.
>
>I find 8 degrees doesn't really add much to its performance but i am no
>doubt a ham fisted individual without the finess of a more experience
>(I have about 400 hours total gliding).
>
>However, got to say it makes me smile, it goes well (I have done a bit of
>XC in it including a 300k and it does land well in small fields).
>
>However, when I first started to fly it I tended to fly it too fast whe
>in to land resulting in far longer landing runs than I now achieve.
>
>There is a website called Pik 20B Kilo Golf which is a guy who owns
>yellow Pik 20B which has some good tips on how to fly it.
>
>Probably not for a low hours pilot used to air brakes but even then if yo
>
>behaves very well. Shame people are put off by the lack of airbrakes.
>
>I also agree with Don about the wet wings comment...it doesn't like rain
>very much as it doesn't shed that too easily although funnily enough ther
>
>the wings to assist with spanward flow but i haven't done this on mine an
howard banks
Additional thoughts:
Factory trailer is very road worthy and once you get a system not that bad to rig/unrig. Nothing like as nice as a Cobra, but you get what you pay for and a Pik is cheap on a $/elloverdee basis. Wings weigh a ton; would have a rigger today but they were rare back then.
Rain: All true, sinks like a homesick rock when wet. Was told secret by a Finnish pilot who had owned a Pik20. When in rain lower flaps until the rain water stops balling up on leading edge (look out window and the effect is immediately obvious). OK so it doesn't fly as well as clean in the dry, but it flies fine and is under control. Get away from rain or look for a nice field to land.
Landings: If new to flaps, especially flaps only, before flying Pik get some practice. I was flown in back seat of a Super Cub and the pilot gave me control as he steadily put the flaps down at around 65 knots. My job was to keep the nose on the horizon. The stick pressure -- forwards -- was very similar to that on the Pik. Then take a high tow and before first landing practice with flaps and discover the fun of standing on the pedals to maintain approach speed.
One other thing my Finnish friend drilled into me. When in high pilot load, as in landing out, it is very easy to lost count of many turns you have taken on the flap handle (mine was almost five 360 deg turns from neutral to full flap). So he said call the turns out as you make them -- easier to recall what you have done under pressure. You will feel an idiot calling out one two etc, he said, but it helps. I did it and it worked.
And once you have the Pickle sorted try comparing local x-ctry results on a dollar invested basis. You will find that on many many days back east you are the winner! You will also be competitive miles/$ on anything but real western boomer days too.
On Thursday, January 1, 1998 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Moto12345 wrote:
> conditions. does it climb well. I like the l/d but I don't know what it's
> airfoil does for climbing. Does the aircraft have any bad habits? I like the
> idea of no gel coat. I haven't flown a flapped glider yet but I hear its a
chip.b...@gmail.com
Chip Bearden
fenog...@yahoo.com
The PIK is what I can afford, and I think that to move up to a significantly higher performance ship would not be cost effective. People have done 1000K on the ridges in PIK B's, and short of racing, I am well pleased with the PIK as is the other PIK owner.
Much of what is posted above is good advice. Especially important is get a serious and competent check out from someone with real experience in a flap only sailplane. We lost a Sgs 1-35 that I blame on the person giving the checkout, who had some but not much real time in a flapped ship. I thought the preflight briefing did not emphasizing what really mattered about flying a flap only ship. If you hear someone tell you "it's just like spoilers" find someone else to advise you.
Second point is that PIKs are not all the same. While there is much written about wind profiling, some times the "improvements" people have made in fact made them worse. Sometimes a lot worse. Unless your an expert or have expert advice I wouldn't try and improve the airfoil. My glider had the wings profiled just after it was new, but sometime latter in it's history someone tried to "improve the wing" not knowing that it had already been done (failure to know the bibliography or read the logs) and started to make them worse. Fortunately they stopped after just ruining a small portion and the damage was repaired.
The two PIKS in my club are only a few serial numbers apart but the wings are different, in that my flaps continue to the end of wing root, and on the other glider the flaps end about six inches short, with a fixed section at the root. However the both seem to be identical in flight. Someone suggested the earlier ones are better, as the molds changed. I don't know for sure but there may be something to that. Don't get the one with the 6 inches of bondo on the leading edge (its out there somewhere).
As to flying it, using negative flaps at the start of the ground roll and transitioning to 0 flaps when you get aileron effectiveness is a very good idea. It ups the take off work load, but really helps. The opposite is true on roll out. If a wind drops, I can go to negative flaps and pick the wing back up.
In flight I (we) find around 50 Knots and 4 degrees of flap works for us. I have tried slower with more flaps but the glider feels like it is hunting in roll and yaw. Climb is pretty good.
The work load in flight is slightly higher, as in my view the rudder needs attention perhaps a little more than some other gliders. On the positive side using negative flaps when running is very nice.
Landing is a long story that I will skip, except to say once you get it you will really come to like it. Generally speaking I see people flying way too fast until short final or even roundout and puzzled about why the glider won't slow down.
If you fly power planes, especially if you can land tail wheel planes it is a lot easier transition.
Overall, very happy with mine.
(only flew it in rain once and it was a heavy downpour, so can't speak to the rain on wings issue)
Gary
Blake Seese 3Y
> Does anyone have experience with the PIK 20? How does it thermal in light
> conditions. does it climb well. I like the l/d but I don't know what it's
> airfoil does for climbing. Does the aircraft have any bad habits? I like the
> idea of no gel coat. I haven't flown a flapped glider yet but I hear its a
> slower approach and steeper. I would appreciate any comments.
johnrobinso...@gmail.com
http://strato.co.nz/pik20/pik20.html
Note I'm talking about the flapped-only version here...I think previous replies have covered most of the ground. Perhaps the bottom line is great value for money, no vices, glides badly with wet wings (common for some gliders with this airfoil), and that landing is quite different compared to airbrakes (but OK when you're used to it). There may well be some variation amongst individual examples so hence the various opinions offered. The PIK factory trailer is great, easily worth half the asking price of the deal! Good luck with your quest, cheers John