Takeoff distance charts while towing with a Pawnee?

[Lawrence Spinetta]

Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.

[Roy B.]

Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights?

I've towed with 8 or 9 different Pawnees and I am not sure that I would trust the data if you find it. Among PA25-235s and 260s (not to mention the occasional 180hp), Hutchinson conversions, different wingtips, hopper in or hopper out, fuel load variables, grass versus paved surfaces, etc. they are all different.
ROY

[Mark628CA]

And let us not forget little things like density altitude, field elevation and pilot technique.

[Linda Chism]

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 6:44:38 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.

Lawrence,
While the RAS responders get all lathered up telling you all the ways your question is wrong, let me offer you & your club info, data, and insights on Pawnee towing performance as you asked. Feel free to contact me directly at “gmail” address chism.linda ; happy to share. L

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Linda certainly know towing, she won the coveted tow pilot award for the year with a whopping 83 tows, way to go Linda. I will stick to what Roy said, no two Pawnee's are alike and the takeoff distance is a variable based on many factors including pilot technique. OBTP, tow pilot that makes over 1200 a year and still learning.

[Moshe Braner]

On 9/7/2023 9:44 PM, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
>

Our club is measuring tow performance with various gliders. (L-19, not
Pawnee.) But different days have different density altitudes. Is there
an accepted formula for the expected effect of density altitude on the
climb rate in the tow? I've seen a rule of thumb for airplanes (not
towing) of 3.5% reduction in ROC per 1000 feet increase in denalt. Is
that correct? For towing too?

The effects of density altitude (and wind, and glider weight and type)
on initial acceleration, ground roll, and post-liftoff acceleration, are
a whole 'nuther kettle of fish. But any info on that would be welcome
too. Our runway surface is grass.

[Hank Nixon]

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.

What is your objective?
UH

[Chip Bearden]

Rate of climb is important, obviously, but as a glider pilot (I'm not a tow pilot), I care most about one thing: how long does it take to get to 200 feet (preferably at no less than 60 kts) and where am I when that happens? They're related, of course, but I don't think ROC tells the whole story. Thoughts from those more experienced?

Chip Bearden
"JB"

[Dan Marotta]

We often see 10,000' density altitudes in the summer at Moriarty. Then
add in glider type, ballast or not, experience of the glider pilot...
It goes on.

Dan
5J

[Dan Marotta]

I did 52 tows in a Pawnee 235 in Creede, CO (field elev 8,680' MSL) one
summer weekend. Is that enough experience to weigh in?

Dan
5J

[Michael Fadden]

Dan,

I checked the RAS Expert Qualifications Chart and it seems you were one short for the weekend. Maybe next time.😉

Mike

[Mark628CA]

> I checked the RAS Expert Qualifications Chart and it seems you were one short for the weekend. Maybe next time.😉

Plus, more than 75% of the "customers" would have to get up and away. Your score declines for each relight.

[Lawrence Spinetta]

Thanks, Roy. I appreciate there are all sorts of variables. Still would appreciate any advice, insights, or even rules of thumb to keep us tow pilots safe, especially during hot temperatures.

[Lawrence Spinetta]

Thanks, Linda. I just sent you an email to your gmail.

[Lawrence Spinetta]

Our objective is to just keep our roster of tow pilots safe. For example, we were thinking through the safety margins our club wanted to consider / implement for higher temperature towing. As you all know, you don't get the best climb rates, even with a Pawnee let alone a 152, with a high-density altitude day with a dual 2-33. So we wanted to gather advice.

[Lawrence Spinetta]

good point.

[Dan Marotta]

Dammit...

Dan
5J

[Moshe Braner]

We're measuring that too, of course. But as far as comparing results
from different days (different density altitude) I thought to ask for
the easier part first: how is the ROC expected to change.

Some days, in some gliders, the "200 feet" point seems too far out to
return to the runway. Worst when there's a bit of a tailwind, so should
avoid that!

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:

> Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.

Lawrence, I will opine on this thread in an effort to inform many current and potential tow pilots of what I consider for all tow pilots to understand and react when necessary.
#1- Is the tow plane capable of meeting the requirements to tow.
#2- What are you towing??? Weight, type of glider? There are times when I tow guys full of water and I as the tow pilot inform them that I am aware of their ballast and I inform them that I will be towing them at a bit more speed. Guess what, they love the fact that as a tow pilot I am cognizant of their excess weight and tow requirements.
#3- My flap setting in the Pawnee, sometimes I have a click of flaps to facilitate departure and then stay in ground effect to a needed speed then on to a positive rate of climb.
#4- Variables, wind, temp, DA,
#5- The glider pilot, who are you towing????? This is an often overlooked aspect. Is it someone that I should be concerned about or someone that I have towed many times before and I know their capabilities at that end of the rope.
#6- Is the tow pilot a glider pilot??? This may be more important than you realize, a TP that flies both ends of the rope just may have a better understanding of any situation that you may encounter.
#7- What is your mental and physical status at the time of your tow?? As a tow pilot we all have times of variable mood changes based on the current or the past tow. When it is approaching 100 degrees F and you have your butt in the hot Pawnee and the next tow is lingering around the take off line you become irritated, does that affect your tow capability?
#8- Identifying a critical situation!!!!!
#9- Reaction to a critical situation?????
#10- I will call this #10 but actually it should be number 1, the RELEASE? Have you actually tried to get to the release handle in an mock emergency? Why don't you try seeing if you can get to release handle within two seconds, it may just be the best exercise you can practice. Personally, IMHO I think that most tow planes should be re evaluated with regard to the tow release. Have you as a tow pilot practiced a release? Practice enhances muscle memory, it may well save your life.
I am sure that there are many very experienced tow pilots out there that can add many more quality points to the list, next time you get a tow from your tow pilot tell him or her thanks, your gratitude will go a long way. OBTP

[Hank Nixon]

I'm still unclear what the original poster is trying to get to. Is it some kind of hard decision point where we don't tow the (fill in) 2-33 with 2 people because it is now too heavy?
There are so many variables to consider.
1- Pure tug performance- type, weight, horse power, prop, current engine condition(plugs clean and clear?)etc.
2 Tug pilot weight
3 Fuel on board
4 Surface - Grass(tall or not), soft ground, paved
5 Glider mass and drag characteristics.
6 Tug pilot technique- Soft takeoff vs "normal", best angle of climb or wait for best rate. Fast acceleration or gentle.
7 Glider pilot technique. A dragging skid can hurt more than mass. Wandering student reduces performance.
8 Temperature and dew point- density altitude
9 Elevation
10 Field slope
11 Obstructions to consider.
12. High tow vs low tow
13- Others could add more to this list
UH

[Dan Marotta]

On reflection it seems to me that this is a nonsense question unless
it's meant for a group of newbies, with new (to them) pilots, gliders,
tugs, airfield, etc.

Has something changed and you need to know answers? We've been towing
all sorts of gliders with all sorts of tugs at all sorts of locations
for decades. Maybe an air retrieve out of a short non-airport field?
That's on you to read, understand, and follow the published performance
data with consideration of aircraft condition, weather, pilot skill, etc.

We can't tell you how to do this and you'd be a fool to take the advice
of strangers in a unique, critical situation.

Dan
5J

[Lawrence Spinetta]

On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 8:42:50 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:

I'd like a takeoff distance chart for a Pawnee towing a 2-33, 1-26, and Grob.

[Lawrence Spinetta]

On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 3:25:30 PM UTC-5, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> > Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
> Lawrence, I will opine on this thread in an effort to inform many current and potential tow pilots of what I consider for all tow pilots to understand and react when necessary.
> #1- Is the tow plane capable of meeting the requirements to tow.

Yes

> #2- What are you towing??? Weight, type of glider? There are times when I tow guys full of water and I as the tow pilot inform them that I am aware of their ballast and I inform them that I will be towing them at a bit more speed. Guess what, they love the fact that as a tow pilot I am cognizant of their excess weight and tow requirements.

2-33, 1-26, and Grob plus various glass ships

> #3- My flap setting in the Pawnee, sometimes I have a click of flaps to facilitate departure and then stay in ground effect to a needed speed then on to a positive rate of climb.

When do you use flaps?

> #4- Variables, wind, temp, DA,

Often gets hotter than 100 deg here in Texas

> #5- The glider pilot, who are you towing????? This is an often overlooked aspect. Is it someone that I should be concerned about or someone that I have towed many times before and I know their capabilities at that end of the rope.

Agree

> #6- Is the tow pilot a glider pilot??? This may be more important than you realize, a TP that flies both ends of the rope just may have a better understanding of any situation that you may encounter.

Agree

> #7- What is your mental and physical status at the time of your tow?? As a tow pilot we all have times of variable mood changes based on the current or the past tow. When it is approaching 100 degrees F and you have your butt in the hot Pawnee and the next tow is lingering around the take off line you become irritated, does that affect your tow capability?
> #8- Identifying a critical situation!!!!!
> #9- Reaction to a critical situation?????
> #10- I will call this #10 but actually it should be number 1, the RELEASE? Have you actually tried to get to the release handle in an mock emergency? Why don't you try seeing if you can get to release handle within two seconds, it may just be the best exercise you can practice. Personally, IMHO I think that most tow planes should be re evaluated with regard to the tow release. Have you as a tow pilot practiced a release? Practice enhances muscle memory, it may well save your life.
> I am sure that there are many very experienced tow pilots out there that can add many more quality points to the list, next time you get a tow from your tow pilot tell him or her thanks, your gratitude will go a long way. OBTP

All good advice

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 7:46:47 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 3:25:30 PM UTC-5, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> > > Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
> > Lawrence, I will opine on this thread in an effort to inform many current and potential tow pilots of what I consider for all tow pilots to understand and react when necessary.
> > #1- Is the tow plane capable of meeting the requirements to tow.
> Yes
> > #2- What are you towing??? Weight, type of glider? There are times when I tow guys full of water and I as the tow pilot inform them that I am aware of their ballast and I inform them that I will be towing them at a bit more speed. Guess what, they love the fact that as a tow pilot I am cognizant of their excess weight and tow requirements.
> 2-33, 1-26, and Grob plus various glass ships
> > #3- My flap setting in the Pawnee, sometimes I have a click of flaps to facilitate departure and then stay in ground effect to a needed speed then on to a positive rate of climb.
> When do you use flaps?

Flaps for takeoff are an option that I use to enhance getting off the ground in a better attempt to obtain ground effect and increase speed to maintain a positive rate of climb at my desired airspeed. they are retracted at about 300 feet. Depending on what and weight will determine my flap selection.

[Roy B.]

There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".

1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.

2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".

3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.

I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
ROY

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Roy makes some excellent points about towing, after slack takeoff is a great technique for obvious reasons, being cognizant of the rope and cycle requirements can eliminate coat and release replacement. 99.9% of my tows are done on grass and we have changed from that yellow nylon to a white Dacron type rope from Wings and Wheels, it has tripled the life of our tow ropes.
A few more words about, "Who Are You Towing", I have a request from every new glider pilot that I tow, this comes from some first hand experience and events. Tow pilots are always eager to tow a new glider pilot on their solo flight, yet please be aware, you may not get what you expect. I have even recently had a very uncomfortable tow experience from a first time solo pilot.
Prior to each first time solo I make time to discuss what is expected during the tow, prior to takeoff I have the solo pilot acknowledge to ne over the radio that his or her canopy is locked and that the spoilers are stowed and locked. I also inform the solo pilot that I will be extending my straight out departure to a higher than usual altitude rather than turning after our normal departure altitude. My feeling is that it increases confidence for the glider pilot to stay in the slot as I call it rather than being all over the sky. YES!!! I have had more than one student pilot panic on their solo flight, it happened last week.
Hopefully some of this information in this thread is helpful to all tow pilots, others like myself take part in soaring to help others get into the sky and enjoy flying their gliders. Next time you hop in your glider and ask for a tow please say to yourself, I am going to fly a great tow, and when you release tell that tow pilot THANKS FOR THE TOW! Old Bob The Purist

[Hank Nixon]

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:

ROY makes a couple of useful points.
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.
2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
UH

[waltco...@aol.com]

Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video while on tow. Additionally I would insist on release handles up where the tow pilot can reach them easily and tow hooks changed to more modern and dependable upon release types.

"DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Walt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.
After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTP

[waltco...@aol.com]

Ain't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.

Walt Connelly
FORMER tow pilot.

[2G]

I am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
or
2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.

I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.

Tom 2G

[rec.aviation.soaring]

Since you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.
My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

Being towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I could teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Eric, that last comment really made me laugh, I find it laughable to compare self launching to staying behind the tow plane in a pure glider. I make over a thousand tows a year, about 75% or more are training flights and it takes more than just a few flights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The Purist

[Mark628CA]

it takes more than just a few flights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The Purist

Yeah, I remember telling my instructor that learning to aerotow would be a lot easier if the damn tow pilot would put a bit more effort in trying to stay in front of the glider.

Kind of like trying to tow a glider trailer in a stiff cross wind with a car that is too small and light. If the trailer changes lanes, try to stay in front of it.

[Eric Greenwell]

I thought you said you didn't instruct? Or is that what the instructors in your club tell you? Anyway, my students were not ready to solo or to handle tow emergencies after a few flights, but it didn't take them long to learn towing basics, which are...

First things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!
Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)

Then, point the glider at the tow plane...
- use the ailerons to keep the wing parallel to the tow plane wing
- use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon
- use the rudder to point the nose at the tow plane

How long does it take Treasure Coast students to learn to point the glider at the tow plane?

[Hank Nixon]

My experience is that most students master the tow in about 10 flights. It takes time to develop the sense of position and timing.
It has little to do with big secrets. It takes a few flights to get it. I have seen some hold position on the first try but that is rare.
UH

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Eric, I would never instruct, I am smarter than that. I do tow more than most and most of my tows are for training flights, no, the glider does not respond slowly, an out of position glider can kill you in two seconds. There is no BIG SECRET, just good execution will make the tow pilot a nicer guy or girl. I rarely see students conquer the tow in very few flights, and I have seen a student take over 150 flights to solo. I thought I was going to buy the farm last week on a first solo, it was damn right ugly, the glider pilot needs to be flying a motorglider so that he doesn't take the life of the tow pilot. It is unfortunate that you downplay the skill required to stay behind the tow plane. Remember, "Don't Kill The Tow Pilot"! Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

Ten flights to "master" the tow seems reasonable. That's more advanced than just being able to follow the tow plane. And the secrets aren't really secrets, except for the new student, who tend to overcontrol at first, in part from nervousness, and because they don't realize the glider is inherently stable.

[Eric Greenwell]

Even the newest student understands that pushing the stick to an extreme and holding it there is a doomsday maneuver. My "responds slowly" refers to fast stick motions that can be described as "wiggling". They are too quick for the glider to respond, and often the student isn't even aware of the furious "pot stirring" they are doing. Having them hold the stick still, then watching the glider calm down and follow the tow plane almost by itself, was an eye opener for most of them. The inherent stability of the glider is not obvious to the novice pilot.

I always guarded the back of the stick until we were at least 500' high, so the student could not apply excessive elevator. None ever did.

None of my students "conquered' the tow in just a few flights. That's a much higher bar that "following the tow plane", which is relatively easy.

I've been towed more than a thousand times, ditto for self-launching, and I find the mechanics of an aerotow launch easier than the mechanics of a self-launch. Also, the MG pilot has to determine when it's safe to pull onto the runway, when to launch, while avoiding other aircraft and hazards that are on the airport or in the air near it, and to retract the mast while continuing to avoid other aircraft. The towed pilot does none of these things, but just follows the tow plane until he's happy with his location. Once he's released and the MG pilot has fully retracted his mast, they are once again equal in their responsibilities.

[Moshe Braner]

"use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"

- I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
horizon then corrects itself, slowly.

[Eric Greenwell]

I now recall that is what I told them, as that is "pointing the nose at the tow plane". I agree that "Positioning the tow plane on the horizon" would lead to over correction. It's been 26 years since I quit instructing, and I'm sure there is some rust 8^)

[Richard Livingston]

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
> "use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"
> - I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
> I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
> right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
> horizon then corrects itself, slowly.

...
> >

Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow
cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.

Rich L.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP

[Eric Greenwell]

Told you! You gotta tell the student the SECRET, which is using the elevator and rudder to point a spot on the canopy at the tow plane, then using the ailerons to match the glider wing (the bank) with the tow plane wing. Learn to that, and you can fly entire tow from rope attachment to rope release even do wing down, unassisted takeoffs. You need more training to be solo ready, but hey! That's great progress that doesn't take a lot of flights to learn.

I've only trained students in a Blanik L-13, and other gliders might not be as docile, and require a slightly different approach.

Eric

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Eric, the SECRET is that Elvis is not at a pizza parlor in Detroit, he might just be flying his motorglider somewhere near Memphis while he sings Amazing Grace. I love how all you instructors come up with these theories on how to follow the towplane, just put that dot on the window and all is good, I am going to call BS on that theory. OBTP

[Eric Greenwell]

It's not just me and Moshe, Old Bob, but also ... (wait for it) ... the 1989 Joy of Soaring [rimshot ]put out by the SSA (page 28): "The third, and preferred, technique is to keep the towplane in a fixed position on the glider's windshield. ... In effect, the glider pilot aligns two points in the glider upon the towplane, ... thus aiming the glider at the towplane." [2nd rimshot]

Now, there are TWO things you should read: "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" and "The Joy of Soaring". You are probably still busy with towing and all, but summer's almost gone, yes, and winter's comin' on, so you'll have those long, dark evenings to catch up on some this stuff.

[George Haeh]

I'm waiting for one of the eminent instructors here to reveal the simple SECRET for following the tow plane when it's turning.

[Hank Nixon]

On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 9:52:19 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
> I'm waiting for one of the eminent instructors here to reveal the simple SECRET for following the tow plane when it's turning.

This eminent instructor thinks that this topic has gone off the rails.
UH

[Richard Livingston]

On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 8:52:19 PM UTC-5, George Haeh wrote:
> I'm waiting for one of the eminent instructors here to reveal the simple SECRET for following the tow plane when it's turning.

I'm not a CFI-G, but during a turn I allow the tow plane to drift to the inside of the turn somewhat while keeping it at the same level above the instrument panel. And I bank the wings the same as the tow plane. I want to keep the tail fin of the tow plane approximately centered on the fuselage. This works very well and, once mastered, prevents over controlling.

Rich L.

[Dan Marotta]

You and Bob gotta be old farts, Eric! But I love the reference to Billy
Grammer.

BTW, the trick to flying tow is, indeed, to keep the tug in a spot on
the canopy. But the REAL trick that nobody has revealed yet is to know
just where that spot is and how it changes during turns and straight
ahead flight.

Not an instructor (by choice) - just an old fart, too...

Dan
5J

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Dan, I am a bit confused about the spot or is it a dot? If it is a spot I am going to get a Magic Marker and place a spot from the marker on the windshield of the 2-33, AKA, Skyhag, in hopes that the students will keep the spot on the Pawnee. Now if it is a dot then I will place a red dot sticker on the windshield and never again do I expect any glider pilot to be out of position.
Yes Eric, the days will be getting shorter and darkness will cover the sky sooner than expected, this will allow more time for me to catch up on all the books that I have on my night stand. Don't think the Joy Of Soaring or The Guide To Motorgliding will be at the top of my list. I have the new Mark Levin book on how the democrats have ruined the country.
With this new fall weather approaching I do plan on flying my pure ASW27B on some nice triangles around South Florida, who knows, might just make a few more trips around 2901 taking the left and right banana. OBTP

[Eric Greenwell]

OB, don't worry, be happy, it doesn't need to be done note for note, but just keep the towplane somewhere near the "dot". Which, btw, will have a location that depends mostly on the pilot's seated height; also, you are the towpilot way up front, so it will be your club instructors revealing the "secret" of the aim point.

[Dan Marotta]

Not so easy, Bob.

The dot, spot, or location on the canopy changes based upon pilot
height, straight flight, turns, etc. Forgetting dots, just try to fly
the glider along the same path as the tug is flying. Otherwise you'll
quickly get out of position,

Dan
5J

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

I was able to get to the gliderport today after a visit in the hospital this week, but I did have my IPAD next to me reading the BS in RAS, it actually lowers my blood pressure. At the port today I had a fill in tow pilot, I briefed him on the pilots that he might be towing and I asked the instructor if he had gone over SPOTS and DOTS with the student, they looked at me and asked me if I felt ok. I took a few minutes of my time to show them where the marker was to make the SPOT and I had some of my shooting target red peel off DOTS that they could use if needed.
Now Eric, these guys looked at me like I had flown in on one of the alien spaceships or one of those motorglider spaceships. OBTP

[waltco...@aol.com]

Let's simplify all this. Tell the student to keep the tow plane on the horizon, stay just to the left of the tow plane making it easier on the tow pilots knees, tell the student to release IMMEDIATELY if they lose sight of the tow plane and tell them WHY!! BECAUSE YOU COULD KILL THE TOW PILOT.

WALT CONNELLY