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Parachute use in single seat gliders
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tberr...@gmail.com
May 16, 2016, 11:09:08 AM5/16/16
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I have two separate questions about use of parachutes in non-aerobatic and non-contest flight in a single seat glider. First, I understand that it is a good and best practice for cross country flying and of course if it is possible to wear one, why wouldn't you? I'm not intending to fly without a legally packed chute, but I am wondering if it is actually against the regs.
1. First, a straightforward question - Is the use of a parachute *required* in the AFM of all single seat gliders? I know it is assumed, particularly since it functions as your seat cushion in many gliders. And I know contests require them for very good reasons.
I suspect it is required in some gliders as part of the flight equipment but maybe not in others? I'm asking because I don't wear a chute in our trainers and club ships like the ASK-21 or 1-34 but can fly them cross country. When I fly the club Discus, I put the chute on, even if I am flying to the same turnpoints.
2. If a parachute is *not* required as part of the glider's equipment, does that mean that if you do use it for seat cushion purposes only (e.g. no intention of aerobatics in flight) that it must have been repacked in the required 180 days?
Part 91.307 says in part, "No pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a parachute that is available for emergency use to be carried in that aircraft unless it is an approved type and has been packed by a certificated and appropriately rated parachute rigger --" it then goes on to explain the 180 day rule and so on.
Does 'available' mean that if you flew with an out of date repacked chute as a seat cushion but didn't put it on it would be legal?
Again, I understand that the chute should be repacked within the 180 day limit and don't intend to break that. But I have been confronted with an out of date chute in a single seat glider and wanted to go for a local flight. I'd be hesitant to fly without out but It sounds to me like you can't even bring the chute for a seat cushion since it would be 'available' for use in an emergency.
1. First, a straightforward question - Is the use of a parachute *required* in the AFM of all single seat gliders? I know it is assumed, particularly since it functions as your seat cushion in many gliders. And I know contests require them for very good reasons.
I suspect it is required in some gliders as part of the flight equipment but maybe not in others? I'm asking because I don't wear a chute in our trainers and club ships like the ASK-21 or 1-34 but can fly them cross country. When I fly the club Discus, I put the chute on, even if I am flying to the same turnpoints.
2. If a parachute is *not* required as part of the glider's equipment, does that mean that if you do use it for seat cushion purposes only (e.g. no intention of aerobatics in flight) that it must have been repacked in the required 180 days?
Part 91.307 says in part, "No pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a parachute that is available for emergency use to be carried in that aircraft unless it is an approved type and has been packed by a certificated and appropriately rated parachute rigger --" it then goes on to explain the 180 day rule and so on.
Does 'available' mean that if you flew with an out of date repacked chute as a seat cushion but didn't put it on it would be legal?
Again, I understand that the chute should be repacked within the 180 day limit and don't intend to break that. But I have been confronted with an out of date chute in a single seat glider and wanted to go for a local flight. I'd be hesitant to fly without out but It sounds to me like you can't even bring the chute for a seat cushion since it would be 'available' for use in an emergency.
gregg...@gmail.com
May 16, 2016, 12:17:29 PM5/16/16
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The FAA isn't that dumb, well maybe they are, but they have addressed this before. Flying with an out of date pack job isn't legal, though it is the safest thing to do(compared to flying without a parachute.) Risk of getting caught, even post accident is pretty small. I've heard reserve data cards make a tasty snack during the post bailout walk home.
shkdriver
May 16, 2016, 12:23:54 PM5/16/16
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On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 10:09:08 AM UTC-5, tberr...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have two separate questions;(quote clipped)
It seems the core question is, If you fly with an out of date parachute, can you comply with the regs if you don't actually strap it on.
So,
Heaven forbid a pilot die and the ntsb report, "pilot was sitting on a out of date parachute with said parachute not properly worn."
It's not impossible that any prudent insurance company would deny any claim, and place the fault upon the deceased pilot, and possibly exposing his loved ones and his estate to legal action if he hurt anyone else.
however reomote a chance, seems unreasonable for a 'fun' flight.
> I have two separate questions;(quote clipped)
It seems the core question is, If you fly with an out of date parachute, can you comply with the regs if you don't actually strap it on.
So,
Heaven forbid a pilot die and the ntsb report, "pilot was sitting on a out of date parachute with said parachute not properly worn."
It's not impossible that any prudent insurance company would deny any claim, and place the fault upon the deceased pilot, and possibly exposing his loved ones and his estate to legal action if he hurt anyone else.
however reomote a chance, seems unreasonable for a 'fun' flight.
C-FFKQ (42)
May 16, 2016, 1:41:03 PM5/16/16
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I fly a Kestrel 19 in Canada. The Type Certificate states that a back-type parachute must be worn. Odd, since it's a British aircraft and the British TC does not have this on the Minimum Equipment List (nor does the TC issued by the FAA).
I have not seen a parachute listed on the MEL for any of my club's gliders, so I'm guessing the Kestrel 19 is special?
I have not seen a parachute listed on the MEL for any of my club's gliders, so I'm guessing the Kestrel 19 is special?
CindyB
May 17, 2016, 2:08:09 AM5/17/16
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On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 8:09:08 AM UTC-7, tberr...@gmail.com wrote:
Based on your reference to US FARs, I'll answer as if you were in the USA.
> 1. First, a straightforward question - Is the use of a parachute *required* in the AFM of all single seat gliders?
No.
> 2. If a parachute is *not* required as part of the glider's equipment, does that mean that if you do use it for seat cushion purposes only (e.g. no intention of aerobatics in flight) that it must have been repacked in the required 180 days?
YES -- it must be packed to be current for use, if it leaves the ground in the machine with you. Flying aerobatics has no bearing on this repacking reg. You can legally fly aerobatics in the US with no parachute.
> Part 91.307 says in part, "No pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a parachute that is available for emergency use
to be carried in that aircraft
unless it is an approved type and has been packed by a certificated and appropriately rated parachute rigger --" it then goes on to explain the 180 day rule and so on.
>
> Does 'available' mean that if you flew with an out of date repacked chute as a seat cushion but didn't put it on it would be legal?
"TO BE CARRIED IN"
has been used by the FAA in ramp checks at glider contest events to tell pilots that those out-of-service-date chutes had better not leave the ground unless repacked or unless the owner/pilot wished to be issued a pilot violation. There is a reason for the repack cycle interval.
Trying to dissuade the FAA inspector about your seat cushion 'intent' is about as productive as explaining to the Highway Patrol why you were in an inordinate hurry.
Every cockpit I've used hasn't had space to allow me to leave harness unbuckled, nor allow inversion of the chute and lumpy buckles under me. It's easier to find one that's in date, or find an appropriate seat cushion. If you feel strongly enough about 'needing' a chute, get one that's within its service date.
Cindy B
Based on your reference to US FARs, I'll answer as if you were in the USA.
> 1. First, a straightforward question - Is the use of a parachute *required* in the AFM of all single seat gliders?
> 2. If a parachute is *not* required as part of the glider's equipment, does that mean that if you do use it for seat cushion purposes only (e.g. no intention of aerobatics in flight) that it must have been repacked in the required 180 days?
> Part 91.307 says in part, "No pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a parachute that is available for emergency use
to be carried in that aircraft
unless it is an approved type and has been packed by a certificated and appropriately rated parachute rigger --" it then goes on to explain the 180 day rule and so on.
>
> Does 'available' mean that if you flew with an out of date repacked chute as a seat cushion but didn't put it on it would be legal?
has been used by the FAA in ramp checks at glider contest events to tell pilots that those out-of-service-date chutes had better not leave the ground unless repacked or unless the owner/pilot wished to be issued a pilot violation. There is a reason for the repack cycle interval.
Trying to dissuade the FAA inspector about your seat cushion 'intent' is about as productive as explaining to the Highway Patrol why you were in an inordinate hurry.
Every cockpit I've used hasn't had space to allow me to leave harness unbuckled, nor allow inversion of the chute and lumpy buckles under me. It's easier to find one that's in date, or find an appropriate seat cushion. If you feel strongly enough about 'needing' a chute, get one that's within its service date.
Cindy B
ifee...@hotmail.com
May 17, 2016, 5:04:06 PM5/17/16
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On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 10:41:03 AM UTC-7, C-FFKQ (42) wrote:
> I fly a Kestrel 19 in Canada. The Type Certificate states that a back-type parachute must be worn. Odd, since it's a British aircraft and the British TC does not have this on the Minimum Equipment List (nor does the TC issued by the FAA).
>
> I have not seen a parachute listed on the MEL for any of my club's gliders, so I'm guessing the Kestrel 19 is special?
The Kestrel 19 is the only glider I've found with that in the type certificate. As far as I can tell all the German gliders have as part of the minimum equipment in the Canadian type certificate either a back type parachute or a cushion (of a specified thickness). I suspect that someone made a slip up when preparing the Canadian type certificate for the Kestrel 19. On the other hand all the references to repacking of parachutes in the CAR's I can find seem to specify that the chute must have been repacked within six months prior to the parachute descent. This seems to imply that if you fly in Canada wearing a chute that was repacked seven months ago you're legal until you bail out... There could very well be other regulations in there somewhere but I haven't found them - the CAR's are not exactly easy to search through.
> I fly a Kestrel 19 in Canada. The Type Certificate states that a back-type parachute must be worn. Odd, since it's a British aircraft and the British TC does not have this on the Minimum Equipment List (nor does the TC issued by the FAA).
>
> I have not seen a parachute listed on the MEL for any of my club's gliders, so I'm guessing the Kestrel 19 is special?
resi...@sbcglobal.net
May 17, 2016, 10:42:51 PM5/17/16
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My Libelle POH minimum required equipment list states that "Either a parachute, or a cushion with a thickness of 4 in. in compressed state" is required
Robert
Robert
N97MT
May 18, 2016, 12:28:47 AM5/18/16
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> Does 'available' mean that if you flew with an out of date repacked chute as a seat cushion but didn't put it on it would be legal?
>
> Again, I understand that the chute should be repacked within the 180 day limit and don't intend to break that. But I have been confronted with an out of date chute in a single seat glider and wanted to go for a local flight. I'd be hesitant to fly without out but It sounds to me like you can't even bring the chute for a seat cushion since it would be 'available' for use in an emergency.
The legal eagles turn to the dictionary when a word is not otherwise defined. "Available" is not defined in the Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations. So turning open Merriam-Webster's Dictionary:
>
> Again, I understand that the chute should be repacked within the 180 day limit and don't intend to break that. But I have been confronted with an out of date chute in a single seat glider and wanted to go for a local flight. I'd be hesitant to fly without out but It sounds to me like you can't even bring the chute for a seat cushion since it would be 'available' for use in an emergency.
***********************************************
available
adjective | avail·able |\ə-ˈvā-lə-bəl\
1 archaic : having a beneficial effect
2 : valid —used of a legal plea or charge
3 : present or ready for immediate use <available resources>
4 : accessible, obtainable <articles available in any drugstore>
5 : qualified or willing to do something or to assume a responsibility <available candidates>
6 : present in such chemical or physical form as to be usable (as by a plant) <available nitrogen> <available water>
***********************************************
"Present or ready for immediate use" seems to fit the best in this sentence context.
Especially "present", even though the parachute may not be (legally) "ready for immediate use".
Since that is the conventional definition of "available" I would say having an emergency-use parachute "present for immediate use" in the cockpit most certainly requires that it have been repacked within the period defined in the regulation.
The regulation does not say you must use a parachute in order for the regulation to be valid. It also does not say that it must be strapped on in order for the regulation to be valid. The parachute must only be "available for emergency use". And according to the common dictionary: "present for emergency use".
So a parachute can make a nice present. But not when you are ramp-checked with an expensive cushion.
kevi...@gmail.com
May 18, 2016, 8:46:16 PM5/18/16
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Best answer, just get it re-packed.
Several years ago someone on the west coast left their chute on the ground because it was out of date. Got caught in the clouds in wave and ripped the wings off killing themselves.
Kevin
92
Several years ago someone on the west coast left their chute on the ground because it was out of date. Got caught in the clouds in wave and ripped the wings off killing themselves.
Kevin
92
Surge
May 19, 2016, 12:25:37 AM5/19/16
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I can only understand that sort of reasoning if you actually plan to use your chute for the flight (skydiving).
I have flown with expired chutes (just a couple of days past repacking - it was club equipment) and I'd rather be bust with an expired chute than find myself without one in an emergency like the poor sod mentioned above.
N97MT
May 19, 2016, 9:05:07 AM5/19/16
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Kevin is spot on.
A parachute is worn like any item of clothing, and handled as such when we climb in and out of the glider. Yet, we spend more money replacing clothes when the smallest defect appears, than knowing that our emergency parachute is really functional.
Locally a re-pack costs us $65. Cheap insurance -- especially in a club setting -- for probably the most neglected item on any glider.
BobW
May 19, 2016, 11:06:38 AM5/19/16
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Having experienced the changes in "societal thinking" from pre-ubiquitous -
(and ultimately, in the U.S.) mandated - automobile seatbelts, and somewhat
similarly, the trend toward common (also often mandated) use of motorcycle
helmets, the "of *course*!" sensibility of both those devices was "immediately
obvious" to me once I reached my early twenties and realized I wasn't
immortal. Likewise parachute use in gliders...*regardless* of official mandate.
If you care about easily and relatively inexpensively actively minimizing
risk-to-self in driving, motorcycling or soaring (to use 3 common examples) -
soaring also being arguably purely self-indulgent and thus completely
"unnecessary" - seat belts, helmets and parachutes are "Duh!" choices in my
view. And to be redundantly clear - I don't give a hoot WHAT officialdom says
or mandates.
Years ago, my personal parachute was out for repacking, and - not being a
member of the local club at that time - rather than not go soaring that day, I
flew atop a 4-inch-thick pad of foam I had lying about. Talk about feeling naked!
Point being, when it comes to "acceptable soaring risk," about the last thing
I'd be worrying about is being "busted by the FAA" for an out-of-pack-date
parachute. Sure, if you're detected when being about to launch at the field,
it would be like waving a red flag at a bull to launch anyway, but - in the
absence of that unlikely (at non-contest launch settings) scenario - there's a
lot to be said for the philosophy: it's easier to beg forgiveness afterward,
than permission beforehand.
In my view, there's no substitute for good sense combined with a willingness
to "informedly as possible" self-decide your own levels of acceptable risk.
(And, yes, I understand risk decisions have potential to affect family and
friends...) To turn the thought around, the idea of letting unknown
bureaucrats decide my personal "acceptable level of societal/family/self risk"
is beyond bizarre to me. Darwinism - not fear of bureaucratic disapproval - is
sufficiently motivating! :)
Bob W.
Jim
May 19, 2016, 12:37:48 PM5/19/16
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I guess it's not necessary to mention here FAR 91.307.
Aerobatics without a parachute pass the 91.307 test as long as you are alone in the aircraft. I bring this up only because sometimes walk-on rides request an "exciting" flight and it can be tempting to do what 91.307 would define as "aerobatic" without putting on parachutes - and being responsible for instructing the ride on how to safely use the parachute if the need arises. I (CFIG) certainly do not consider myself qualified to instruct on the use of parachutes.
Aerobatics without a parachute pass the 91.307 test as long as you are alone in the aircraft. I bring this up only because sometimes walk-on rides request an "exciting" flight and it can be tempting to do what 91.307 would define as "aerobatic" without putting on parachutes - and being responsible for instructing the ride on how to safely use the parachute if the need arises. I (CFIG) certainly do not consider myself qualified to instruct on the use of parachutes.
Bruce Hoult
May 20, 2016, 3:36:03 AM5/20/16
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Is there a practical difference in level of safety? Almost certainly not.
Would a longer period, such as two years, be near enough to equally safe? Probably.
Maybe parachutes in the USA are subjected to greater environmental extremes, possibly causing items such as rubber bands to perish more quickly.
But probably it's just bureaucratic arbitrariness.
Message has been deleted
Dan Marotta
May 20, 2016, 11:14:34 AM5/20/16
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The manual that came with my parachute, not one of the "standard"
brands, calls for a 1-year inspect and repack cycle unless your
country's regulations require more frequent inspections.
Unfortunately, we're stuck with 6 months. I understand that in
the olden days, it was 1 month.
--
Dan, 5J
Dan, 5J
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