TO RULES COMMETTEE PLEASE READ – Nationals no ballast day
AK
agreeing.
A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.
Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
water
day was called.
Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
weight)
Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot
Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
examples I could give but I think my point is clear.
Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
ballast day”.
The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
please don't create losers.
AK
Matt Herron Jr.
> Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
> agreeing.
>
> A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
> especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.
>
> Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
> competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
> water
> day was called.
>
> Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
> weight)
>
> Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
> ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot
the high wing loading birds rather than giving them an advantage?
Matt
Kevin Christner
launches became necessary. This would highly favor the motor crowd,
especially penetrating upwind.
AK
Exactly that is my point! High density altitude also comes to mind as
a reason for “No ballast” day.
Different glider/pilot/engine configurations on such a day can create
winners and losers.
The wing loading differences for different pilot/glider/engine
configuration can easily be as high as 1.5-2 lb/sq foot. That is not a
small number when flying at Nationals.
For now I have no chances to be at the top of the pack at Nationals so
this rule will not affect me greatly however any unfairness is wrong
and I will simply not participate in a contest where this rule could
be applied.
AK
pilot...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I believe that this is really targeted for an area like
Mifflin. What we get are heavy rain showers during the morning that
are pasing thur, with late day clearing. With the late day clearing
and now good ridge winds, a late day ridge task can be called, but
grid time is short and the window of opportunity is not large. Since
Mifflin needs a water tanker for ballast, and the fire dept. mans it,
they just can't sit out at the airport all day. Also, because of the
short window, we can't really rig in heavy rain and wind.
So, to get in a day, to expedite us into the air to fly, might
require this. When you have 50 gliders to water, the time involved is
close to 2 hours. The tanker has 4 hoses and the hanger has 2. @15
minutes per glider so now you get the picture of what is faced. You
also can carry non disposable balance.
My ASG 29/15 empty is 585 pds w/instruments and 1 battery. So, the
wing loadings are closer together than you post. I do know the CD's
from around the country, and will say that what they won't do is call
a task which is not fair or equal to all. Getting in a contest is
sometimes whats required and all the entrants I know will support
this, as the time required to run around and get everybody's yes or
no, we would lose the window.
When I fly in the 18 Meter configiration, I do add non
dispostable ballast to get me up to my legal weight of 1322 lbs. I
don't have a center tank and with my weight with full tanks only gets
to 1290 lbs. I have been weighted many times.
The days I speak of are really few and far between in Mifflin. Maybe
its better to think out the problem of a light wing loading and find a
simple fix than it is to miss out on a great afternoon of racing.
As far as density altitude, I do also fly out of the highest
density altitude airports seen in this country. I do this with full
water, at Max. gross, and yes, the climb is slow, but safety is not
compromised.
Passing up a National or Regional is experience that really
should not be missed. No matter where the guys or girls are at on the
score sheet, we need to remember where we have been, what we are doing
and where we are going.
I have seen and read alot of posts on RAS, including mine and I
do try to see everyone's view, but, as I spoke with someone last night
and then gave it some more thought today, I will add that this is the
USA and I have come to now believe I see nothing wrong with the IGC
adopting our rules for world competition.
Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe, #711.
AK
711, thank you for taking time to reply to my post.
I spoke with an owner of ASG-29 15m/18m. I got a number from him 622
lb in a 15 m configuration.
The example you brought up is unfortunate because the higher wing
loading on the ridge or under a cumulus street will give more
advantage than on a typical thermal day.
It might be that I confused Nationals with fun. I thought the National
Contest was about competing not having fun or putting a day in. I
thought that part was secondary.
By the way 33% of responders to the poll agreed with me and 62%
disagreed.
Below is a quote from a pilot flying in a “no water” contest. A
similar thing can happen at Nationals.
“I competed against three ASH26 ships with motors vs my Lak-17AT with
sustainer. The difference in weight was 200 to as much as about 300
pounds! That is a rather large advantage to the ASH26 pilots in the
strong conditions at Parowan. I would like to see the playing field
leveled by assigning a handicap so that I don’t have to go out and buy
a ASH26 to be competitive. (I need all the help I can get} Im sure we
could come up with a mathematical formula based on wing loading to
help even the playing field. My initial calculations suggest somewhere
around a 5-7% handicap. Sincerely, Clay Thomas N44VH Lak-17AT”
I know this does not have a 100% relevance but it gets my point
across.
I certainly hope CDs will not use this rule, but maybe it should be
modified.
AK
pilot...@gmail.com
Parowan has always been a dry contest. Strategy is required before you
go anywhere to race.
Reread my post.
Clay, VH, won the first day, at Parowan, in 2008, against those big,
bad, heavy ASH's and by almost 10 mph. I sure bet he was smiling
then.......yep.
The last day, at the 18 Meter Nationals, 2008, won by an ASW
27....yep........wing loading @ 9 lbs. Roy and I were parked along
side each other. He not only whipped me, but alot of others who were
fully loaded with water...........yep. Boy, he really enjoyed
that.........
We really need to see who the respondents are on the poll, as some of
them may have never been to a National Contest. Trust me, CD's aren't
out to get you. Being unprepared is what will cause a smiling face to
disappear. Getting a contest in is of prime importance, its as simply
as that. When a weather window appears, it really doesn't warn you.
Sometimes the window closes and we have to all go back in the box. But
at least we were their and tried. The top guns don't want an unfair
advantage. Trust me, they don't need it.
Be careful, the human mind can take you hostage, my friend, and the
ransom its asking, can be life endangering. An endangered life doesn't
have any fun at all.....................711
AK
>
> - Show quoted text -
Exceptions do not make a rule.
Mathematically this is an unfair rule. Nothing is going to change this
fact. How important is it? It is not that important until someone
loses a contest.
Last year for the first time after 20 years break I flew in a contest.
I certainly can not be called an experienced contest pilot but I can
add up the numbers.
I had other financial priorities for the past 20 years, like my
family. There are a lot of people like I. Some of us will not get
involved in this sport unless we have a chance to go to the top. This
might never happen for me but I intend to do everything in my power to
get there and I hope to be playing by fair rules.
It seems to me that one not only needs to be a good pilot (I am not at
the moment), but one has to have real pile of money to remove
disadvantage of any potential rule coming down the line. The financial
bar keeps rising.
Please don’t tell me that for real pilots this is not important. I
might only get one chance in the future and when that happens I don’t
want to blame anyone else but myself.
By the way what an irony that the so much hated rule “drop a day” (if
implemented at National level) would make the impact of this rule less
severe.
For the record I do not like the “drop a day” rule and let’s NOT start
discussing the “drop a day” rule again.
Tuno
> ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot
My ASG-29 empty, straight from the factory with instruments, was 597
pounds. Add 180 for pilot, 10 for chute, 9 for the O2 bottle, 11 for
batteries, 3 for landout kit, 5 for drinking water, 7 fixed in the fin
and 12 fixed in the cockpit and my dry flight configuration is now 8.4
pounds/ft^2.
> Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance.
Which is exactly what I had in mind when I chose the ASG-29 over the
Diana 2!
2NO
AK
them this rule should be improved. I accept it. I hope this is going
to be brought up for reconsideration in the near future, but it will
not be I who is going to speak up on this subject again.
Please feel free to comment on this rule if it is dear to your heart,
but I will give it a rest.
I don’t have competition experience the RC members have. I certainly
hope I am wrong and the RC is right.
AK
Tuno
I understand your displeasure at the prospect of having a wing loading
disadvantage that you can do nothing about on a particular contest
day. But I do not understand your disagreement with the RC.
Yes a glider like the ASG-29/15M will have an advantage over the Diana
2 on a non-ballast day. But that assumes the conditions will be good.
The Diana 2 will have the advantage when conditions are weak, and the
-29 pilot will not be able to do a darn thing about it. Both pilots
picked their gliders before the contest with the advance knowledge
that some days they'll have an edge, some days they won't. It is
unreasonable to expect rules (and RC) to come up with "fairness" in
these situations.
Quod erat demonstrandum. Go fly.
2NO
Karl Striedieck
competitive disadvantage at a no-water contest, not the Diana.
This is because the lighter gliders are allowed to add fixed ballast, while
the heavier machines have no way to get rid of it. In a weak weather contest
the Diana has the advantage while the 26 grovels, but in a strong weather
contest they are equal.
Point two: The rules for nationals provide for a no-water day to be called
only for compelling circumstances, that is to say weak. Here again, the
lighter glider would be at an advantage.
Karl Striedieck
"AK" <SZD5...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:81e65dce-af8a-441a...@z1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
agreeing.
A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.
Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no water
day was called.
Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
weight)
Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot
Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
examples I could give but I think my point is clear.
Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
ballast day”
The intention of this rule was good no one wants to loose a day, but
ablac...@comcast.net
> If you read the rules you will find that it is the ASH-26 that is at a
> competitive disadvantage at a no-water contest, not the Diana.
>
> This is because the lighter gliders are allowed to add fixed ballast, while
> the heavier machines have no way to get rid of it. In a weak weather contest
> the Diana has the advantage while the 26 grovels, but in a strong weather
> contest they are equal.
>
I really hate the idea of fixed ballast in the cockpit (aside from my
sorry butt). Can I put it in the wings if I tape the dump valve
closed?
Karl invented the ultimate "no ballast" glider - the ASW-17...er...15.
You guys with four panel wings can always try flying with two panels
if you want to bulk up. Note: I take no responsibility for anyone who
actually tries this.
9B
ablac...@comcast.net
Correction - I'm already over the handicap weight limit. The only
fixed ballast I can legally add is pasta.
9B
Andy
> Correction - I'm already over the handicap weight limit. The only
> fixed ballast I can legally add is pasta.
All this prompted me to read the ballast rules for FAI class
regionals. I need to check my W/B data this evening but I think I'm
close to the maximum handicap weight of 760lb for my ASW 28. With no
water in the tail tank I need to add nose trim weight to be at my best
CG for a no ballast contest. The trim weight is non disposable.
Do the rules allow me to add nose trim ballast to optimize CG even if
I'm over the maximum handicap weight?
How are the handicap weights derived? I find it hard to believe that
most US pilots are as light as I am. What would be the point of
having a handicap weight that most pilots exceed if there is no score
handicap applied? It seems that heavy pilots are not only allowed to
fly with no handicap disadvantage but are also allowed to add even
more weight in the tail.
Adding pasta is not an option for me. I like being at 165 lb.
Andy
AK
> Hello 2NO,
>
> You are correct. I can say also Diana 2 shouldn't be dangerous to fly
> without water but dangerous to outland with water or other ballast....
>
> Have experience with "Flying Diana 2" but also with "non flying" serial
> number and not only because I am light pilot but also because a lot of
> factory faults (production but also in design).
>
> Suggestion for this trouble with "no ballast day". What about standard
> weight in cockpit? means Pilot + parachute + ballast which will be the
> some for all gliders? May be 90 kg limit and who will be over will be
> over... (or without BBQ from start of contest ;) )
>
> BTW I understand AK also. He is Polish and Diana is Polish also. Try to
> find more about Polish proud when you type in Google VH-VHZ. You will
> find also forums, where is AK trying to change usual rules between
> customer and producer...
>
> Have a nice day,
>
> Unhappy pilot experienced with Diana 2, serial No. 3 VH-VHZ
>
> VHZ
>
> PS. Now I know what it means VH-VHZ...
> (Voodoo-Hunt -Victim Hana Zejdova)
>
> PSS. Sorry for my English....
> VHZ
Please take your case to court and off public newsgroups. You will do
much better there. You can’t possibly dream to resolve your problems
here and if you want to educate us on Diana 2 you already did so. We
know everything by now.