Can't buy them all, choosing between ASW19 vs LS1 vs PIK20

[PAGA]

Hi all,

After a long break from gliders, last year I moved close to an airfield and resumed flying at the local soaring club on Blanik metal 2-seaters. While this is always a lot of fun I am tempted to finally get my own one-seater and start practice longer flights, with slightly better performance than the L23, and also maybe take it on the road to fly elsewhere in the US.

Most of my previous one-seater experience was on Grob 102, both in Europe and in the US : I was looking for a used one and missed a local sale by a few weeks/days. While searching other available used ships not too far from me, within the set performances and the price range I want to commit to, I have narrowed it down to a PIK20, or a LS-1 or an ASW19, in similar conditions and within my parameters (L/D, sink rate, instruments, size, weight, type, etc... i.e. similar to the Grob) and price range (+/- a few $K).

This is the first time I am considering owning my own ship, and I am sure this forum has seen this kind of question a million times (apologies for the duplicate thread) I searched some of these threads but I need to ask a more experience crowd about my specific choice : how to decide between these 3 fine sailplanes, what should I do/ask/check with the sellers in order avoid obvious mistakes and make it easier to decide?

My main concerns are very "grounded" : how to deal with maintenance (when the manufacturer is no longer around for example), and how hard/easy is it to assemble/store them back in the trailer. Of course I am sure these ships handle differently when in the air but I am not too concerned about learning how to deal with each flying specifics/idiosyncrasy, at this point I feel most of my challenges are actually going to be when on land :-)

Thank you all for your time.

[christoph...@googlemail.com]

Hi,

the ASW19 will probably give you least concern in terms of maintenance. At least here in Europe, Schleicher provides excellent support even for the older ships. There is no type certificate holder for the PIK20 anymore. Parts for LS1-f are to some extend still available but you may have to pay the "DG-tax". For previous LS1 versions, things are more difficult.

Assembly of all three models works pretty similar, but the ASW19 has rather heavy wings (70-75kg). All have manual aileron/flaps connectors. Most 19 have a manual elevator connector which one needs to take care of.

Best,
Christoph

[Dan Marotta]

My experience has been that gliders with manual control hookups are very easy to rig, just don't forget to hook up the controls.  I think all that you mention have manual controls.  I owned an ASW-19b and it was very easy to rig.  Most of the people here will tell you to get the glider with the best trailer, but I think the glider is most important.  You will decide that for yourself.

Regarding condition, I would look first for cracks in the finish.  I'm not talking about the normal crazing or cracking that you see in the finish of older gliders but those which indicate deeper damage.  You would be wise to have someone with experience in these things to help you with the inspection.  Check log book(s) for damage/repair history but realize that not all damage or repairs will be documented.  You'll have to make a careful inspection.

My personal preference in certification is to get a glider which is licensed as experimental.  There are minor hassles with annual Program Letters, but these are simple to write and submit.  People on this forum can provide examples.  With an experimental glider you have more leeway with inspections and modifications than with a Standard airworthiness glider, especially if your manufacturer is no longer in business.  Just be sure that you stay within the regulations.

Good luck in your hunt and welcome back!

Dan

--
Dan, 5J

[Justin Craig]

Buy a good 19!

LS1 you will need to pay the DG tax.

No need to say anything about the Pik.

[Pete]

I flew a Grob 102 for my first ship. I did love it but assembly was a pain, getting the wing pins lined up sucked!

I'm now in a DG 100 and there is a significant difference in stick feel (much lighter!). My flying buddy has an ASW 19 and we go head to head all the time.

Both of these ships are very light on the stick (compared to the Grob 102) with really no bad habits (not that the 102 has any either). I would go with the ASW 19. Heavier wings but easy assembly, amazing performance, parts are available, and everyone knows an ASW so resale shouldn't be difficult.
ASW 19's are still one of the most beautiful fuselage forms in soaring so you'll be looking good on the flightline too

[JS]

As you're concerned with maintenance, then to me there isn't much of a decision.
Get a 19B if possible.
Jim

[bruno...@gmail.com]

I loved my 20 and the 19 is a 20 without flaps. You will love the 19 and it will be easier to sell than the others if you ever decide. Best of luck with whatever new ship you get!

Bruno - B4

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Good comments all, thus far.

Out of your list, I feel the 19 would be the best out of them. Good support, easy to fly (winglets can help here on the low speed side, Nixon/Murray tips seem the best) and decent performance. Similar would be the Pegase 101 (French 19).

They are all older gliders, so reasonable finish (slight crazing is almost a given, deep cracks will require an expensive refinish) is worth looking for.
A "factory" type trailer is also desirable, some "cobbled together" trailers can be a real PITA do deal with and may raise the chance to damage the glider.

Welcome back to the sport. ;-)

[jfitch]

I believe the PIK20 came from the factory polyurethane finished. And so may have a better finish than an old gel coated glider. The D model has spoilers, earlier ones had high deflection flaps which are quirky but very effective.

Any of the gliders mentioned are far easier to assembly than any Grob, in my experience.

[chipsoars]

ASW 19

[Per Carlin]

If you like to fly with water, go for the PIK. It takes more and handles the weight better.
If there is a lot of bugs in the air, avoid the PIK. Read Johonssons report and you know why. Anyway Read Johonssons reports for all gliders.
If you are tall and wide, go for the ASW19. Biggest cockpit af them all.
The ASW19 have soft wings. Good for long rides on the ridge.
The LS1 has medium hard wings, giving you better weak thermal feedback in your but.
The PIK comes in eithr glas och carbon wings.
There is a difference in performnace between lS1-c/d and the -f
There is no need for contract with DG, not until you need spares.

/Per
800h LS1-f #283

[Blake Seese 3Y]

If you can get a good buy on a PIK, they are not a bad plane. Easy to rig, tough, great flying! I bought a B model with the big flaps and love it. It is easy to fly and land and predictable in every way. My second flight in the ship yielded a 535k dry. If the trailer is in good shape, they work just fine. Not as nice as a Cobra or Komet, but sound transportation and storage. It will come down to the plane and the instruments included. You really can't go wrong with the Pik or the 19.

[PAGA]

Thank you all so far for all these interesting feedback and tips. I am going to try see all 3 ships before deciding, I may come back here with more questions. And of course I will try to keep you posted once things get moving. Also thank you for the warm welcome back to the soaring community, gliders really attracts a special kind of people.

Have a nice week all - thanks again

[dbra...@gmail.com]

I flew a 19 for several years and loved it. No bad habits, nice handling and decent performance. I liked it with water. As stated before, key is a good trailer for assembly/disassembly. Mine came with a Komet. Also consider getting a version with a tilt up panel modification as the stock version had a fixed panel. I'd also say the wings were stiffer than a Peg, which I also flew several as part of a club...tad better energy retention in a pull up.

[2G]

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 7:51:58 AM UTC-7, PAGA wrote:

I have owned both Schleicher and DGs (ASW19, ASH26E and DG400). I have found Schleicher to be much easier to deal with than DG, who virtually dares you to be a customer. True, you won't have to pay the DG "tax" unless you actually need spare parts, but then you will have to ante up 495 Euro to be allowed the "privilege" of buying them. AND you will have to pay 300 Euro per year thereafter. Do the math: if you own the glider for 10 years that adds up to over 3,000 Euros ($3,300)! And this does not include the price of the parts! I regard this policy as the MOST ill conceived marketing blunder I have ever encountered. And this isn't even the most grievous complaint I have with DG management. I encountered unprecedented resistance to corrected a very significant error in the DG400's POH. DG eventually corrected it, but not after first calling me, basically, an idiot.

[ifee...@hotmail.com]

All other things being equal (which they seldom are - condition of finish, equipment, trailer etc. usually vary quite a bit with used gliders) go for the ASW-19. It's fairly roomy, has a great one piece forward opening canopy, really nice handling, adequate air brakes and good performance. Assembly is easy with the two main pin system. All the control couplings are manual but they are quite easy to reach and visually check.

[krasw]

You should be able to buy decent PIK-20 for a lot less money than ASW19. Type certificate holder for PIK20 is Finnish aviation authority, BTW. It's well built and has outstanding price-to-performance ratio. Parts availability might be a problem (lot's of salvage parts are lying around, however). PIK-20A and B have only landing flaps and land unlike normal glider.

[Steve Leonard]

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 3:37:40 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:

> PIK-20A and B have only landing flaps and land unlike normal glider.

Or, I could turn this around and say the PIK 20A and B have only landing flaps and land like a glider should land. Not the crazy, screaming down the runway tail first touchdowns you get with spoilers only ships.

Said with tongue firmly in cheek, for all those who fly spoiler only sailplanes. :-)

Steve Leonard

[PAGA]

So far I have seen the LS-1 and the ASW-19. Both are nice ships, the finish on the LS-1 is better because it was painted over, so it does not have this old gelcoat feel that the other ship shows. My current preference would be for the ASW-19 if I only considered size of the cockpit and ease to get parts, but I love that LS-1, it seems to have been very well taken care off by it previous owners.

Also I have heard lots of diverging opinions about PIK-20s, some negative about the fact that apparently Centrair is now providing parts for it, or was it wrong information? Is there some painful ADs coming up on those, or some issue with the maintenance, getting parts or what else is going on?

Again, many thanks to all the participants in this thread for your inputs.

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

I've owned a PIK-20B and a couple 19's. I enjoyed and LS-1F when I flew it in the WGC.
LS flew very well. Factory support is quite good and responsive, but expensive with the owner tax. Of the 3, the LS gliders are the hardest to reliably and safely hook up controls.
PIK is very durable and strong with very good( under appreciated) performance. If it is flaps only, it is more of an effort to learn to land well, but will land very short at low energy. There is almost no support and not a lots of current knowledge on maintenance and repair with respect to materials. Forget Centrair- they are useless.
'19 is easy to fly, performs very well. Parts and support are readily available.
It is easy to sell if you decide to move up. It would be my first choice.
Good luck
UH

[Chris Rollings]

ASW19 best bet, still supported and pleasant and easy to fly. PIK20 best
performance when clean and dry but performance deteriorates very badly with
rain or bugs on leading edge.

At 14:56 26 October 2015, uncl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 9:28:15 AM UTC-4, PAGA wrote:
>> So far I have seen the LS-1 and the ASW-19. Both are nice ships, the

>fin=

>ish on the LS-1 is better because it was painted over, so it does not
have

>=

>this old gelcoat feel that the other ship shows. My current preference

>wou=

>ld be for the ASW-19 if I only considered size of the cockpit and ease to

>g=

>et parts, but I love that LS-1, it seems to have been very well taken
care

>=

>off by it previous owners.

>>=20

>> Also I have heard lots of diverging opinions about PIK-20s, some

>negative=

> about the fact that apparently Centrair is now providing parts for it,
or

>=

>was it wrong information? Is there some painful ADs coming up on those,
or

>=

>some issue with the maintenance, getting parts or what else is going on?

=
>=20
>>=20

>> Again, many thanks to all the participants in this thread for your

>inputs=
>..

>
>I've owned a PIK-20B and a couple 19's. I enjoyed and LS-1F when I flew
it

>=

>in the WGC.
>LS flew very well. Factory support is quite good and responsive, but

>expens=

>ive with the owner tax. Of the 3, the LS gliders are the hardest to

>reliabl=

>y and safely hook up controls.
>PIK is very durable and strong with very good( under appreciated)

>performan=

>ce. If it is flaps only, it is more of an effort to learn to land well,

>but=

> will land very short at low energy. There is almost no support and not
a

>=

>lots of current knowledge on maintenance and repair with respect to

>materia=

>ls. Forget Centrair- they are useless.
>'19 is easy to fly, performs very well. Parts and support are readily

>avail=

[ifee...@hotmail.com]

> Or, I could turn this around and say the PIK 20A and B have only landing flaps and land like a glider should land. Not the crazy, screaming down the runway tail first touchdowns you get with spoilers only ships.
>
> Said with tongue firmly in cheek, for all those who fly spoiler only sailplanes. :-)
>
> Steve Leonard

Have you been making progress on the glider which gives you a third type of landing experience?: No spoilers, no large deflection flaps but only a tail chute that doesn't always deploy when you want it? :-)

[JS]

Was wondering the same thing. Heard the trailer was damaged in a storm, hope the glider itself is in good shape.
Perhaps Steve would part with a glider for our potential buyer, PAGA.
Don't think there's any of the listed gliders in Steve's fleet, though.
(PAGA, I liked flying LS1F but still think the 19 is your glider)
Jim

[raylov...@gmail.com]

PAGA,

You didn't specify which LS1. Seems like the discussion is about the "f" model, but don't forget the earlier versions.

I have a "c" model (that was converted to a "d" model solely by the issuance of a letter from LS saying "these gliders are now "d" models...)

I think my glider flies just fine and is easy to assemble. Unlike the "f" model, connecting the ailerons and spoilers is easily done through a hatch in the turtledeck. I think on the "f" you have to reach behind the spars to make the connections and it helps if you have eyeballs on your fingertips. Is that right?

Sure, the "f" has a single piece, front hinged canopy. It also has a "standard" horiz stabilizer with separate elevator whereas the "c" has the all-flying stabilator. I've heard people talk how twitchy that all-flying stab is, but I don't find it so. I can trim and release the stick and it will just fly on nicely without departing into the "death spiral." In a smooth thermal, it will stay circling hands free. At least long enough for me to do whatever I need both hands to do. Fold a map. remove a wrapper from a pack of nabs, etc.

So, I would suggest to look at the "c" and "d" models of the LS1, too.

Ray

[Steve Leonard]

Nope, I have not made any significant or noteworthy progress on the '12. Will send you links to some pictures, Jim.

As for other sailplanes, I do have a "19". Well, a Kestrel 19. Bigger cockpit, you won't likely find. Longer wings, you can find, but heavier, maybe not.

I love big deflection flaps, but am hesitant to recommend them to others. I see too many people flying them "wrong". At least, in my opinion. Too many people fly the entire approach slower "because the stall speed is lower". The plane should not be level coming over the fence with the flaps down 45 degrees. And then they claim "You can't retract the flaps if you get low". And that goes off into a whole other discussion. A B model PIK could be a perfect match for you, but not knowing you, I will make no such recommendation.

The AS-W19 is the start of the heavier generation of Std Class Glass. The LS-1 is from the lighter weight Glass Generation. The 19 will likely cost you more up front, but might be easier to sell if you want to move on. All depends on how you price and advertise it. There are lots of LS1-C/D for sale in Europe. Generally around 10K Euro. Paying too much for something generally only means your cost of operation is higher. Paying too little give higher operating cost and higher frustration levels trying to fix all the things that were wrong with what you got.

I like the lines of the LS1-c/d. I also like the lower "get in the door" cost. If you are looking only an an LS1-f or the 19, I would lean towards the 19, as I think it is slightly more capable for the same dollars invested.

Steve Leonard
Amateur Glider Collector

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 11:29:25 PM UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:
> I love big deflection flaps, but am hesitant to recommend them to others. I see too many people flying them "wrong". At least, in my opinion. Too many people fly the entire approach slower "because the stall speed is lower". The plane should not be level coming over the fence with the flaps down 45 degrees. And then they claim "You can't retract the flaps if you get low".

Yes, that's dumb and I never understood people who claim this.

The approach speed should always be calculated from the clean stall speed, not the full flap stall speed! Then you can safely put the flaps up and down as much as you want.

You do need to remember to adjust the glider's attitude when you do it otherwise, yes, you will "sink" if you bring the flaps up. When I was regularly flying a flapped glider I practiced at altitude quickly going in and out of landing flap without a change of G loading. It's not that hard, but you do have to know to do it.

[PAGA]

Indeed I should have said more specifically that I was considering a nice LS-1c/d
Also I am looking at a very nice DG-100G, but I have not seen it in the flesh (yet).
I went to see the ASW-19 and it is like you said, but that one needs a new coating.
As for the PIK, this is an ongoing project, so far the LS-1c/d has my full attention.

Thanks again for all the feedback here.

[raylov...@gmail.com]

PAGA,
I've had my LS1-c for about 21 years now. If you questions, don't hesitate to ask.

As for performance: The easiest way to get better performance out of my LS1-c is to let a better pilot fly it! I found out that works great. Cheap, too!

Ray

[jpg...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 1:24:42 PM UTC, raylov...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 12:48:26 AM UTC-4, PAGA wrote:
> > Indeed I should have said more specifically that I was considering a nice LS-1c/d
> > Also I am looking at a very nice DG-100G, but I have not seen it in the flesh (yet).
> > I went to see the ASW-19 and it is like you said, but that one needs a new coating.
> > As for the PIK, this is an ongoing project, so far the LS-1c/d has my full attention.
> >
> > Thanks again for all the feedback here.
>

I would look at the DG101G before buying one of the others. If the gelcoat is original it will probably be Schwabelack which is unlikely to craze and shouldn't land you with a refinishing bill down the line. The wings are effectively the same as the ASW 19 as both are derived from the D-38. The 101 variant has a modern one piece canopy and conventional tailplane (unlike the earlier DG100s).

John Galloway

[PAGA]

Yes please, could you tell me more about the DG-100G ELAN vs the DG-101?
The LS-1c is definitively at the top of my list, but I would look at another ASW.

Regards - Paga

[ifee...@hotmail.com]

The original gelcoat on our club's mid 80's DG-300 was completely shot by last year and we had it repainted. DG finish quality may have been somewhat variable. The glider was not pampered but neither was it abused. Any DG or LS that wasn't produced by DG Flugzeugbau will be subject to the annual fee but on the other hand Pacific Aerosport has provided my club with extremely good support for our two DG's (the 300 is subject to the fee, the 505 isn't).

[Julian Rees]

The 101 had some minor improvements over the 100G :

- Full length forward opening canopy (vs the 100 with it's fixed front and
removable or rearward hinged back section)

- Automatic elevator connection

- Shock absorbers on the mainwheel mechanism

afaik there are no aerodynamic differences - the 100G of course already had
the fixed tailplane vs the all moving tail of the original 100.

Technically I think most DG101's are the DG101G-ELAN (which means they have
the fixed tail and were produced by the ELAN company in Slovenia).

Either of the fixed tail versions makes a very nice first glider, the 101G
is slightly nicer with the big canopy. They have very good control
authority at low speeds, nice handling, good airbrakes and reasonable
performance. Gelcoat on DG's lasts longer than some others, but of course
will not last forever and does depend on the climate and use.

[collins...@yahoo.com]

A couple other points not already mentioned by the others with regard to the Pik-20 (though they don't address your main points of interest).

I love mine (800 hrs in it) minus it's performance in rain or with bugs (and I hate the detachable canopy on mine), but I don't recommend the Pik-20 or -20B for low-time pilots due to the very different landing approach for flapped/no-spoiler gliders. [This challenge however is also a huge selling point for those able to use them...I've had no problem clearing a fence or even a shed and landing in the first 400 ft of someone's backyard or clearing powerlines and landing very short.] I had several hundred flights before my first flight in the Pik and I think that's in the ballpark of appropriate min experience (my opinion).

If you'd like to fly fast in any ridge/wave then you'll want to look at the max rough air speed of all the gliders...the Pik has the highest (by far). Additionally, if you ever think you'll need to make a controlled, speed-limited descent (55-70 mph with the Pik at full flap setting) then the Pik is also the only one of the three that will do that for you, or conversely a max capability descent at up to ~12,0000 fpm.

[PAGA]

Thank you for all the feedback, including to a gentleman who emailed me directly but I can't seem to find a valid reply-to email address in his message. Over the weekend I have seen the DG-100 ELAN, and it now poses a serious dilemma to me: I have to decide between LS-1c/d and a DG-100, both very clean, both including their trailer (although the LS-1c trailer is a bit idiosyncratic, I like the minimalism of the DG-100 trailer which is a but cleaner inside as well). I have not yet seen the PIK, but as my hunt for a glider progress I am thinking that I might want to keep the PIK as a project for my second glider, once I am done flying the one I am about to buy...

Other than the fact that the seller of the LS-1c seems more reasonable than the seller of the DG-100 in terms of pricing (he's sub $20K, but I think they are both asking for a bit too much money at this point, that's fair, some negotiation will be needed), I like them both and I am not sure what to do now! Ah, how to deal with these damn 1st world problems that we have :-)

[PAGA]

Are there any owners of DG-100 here who would be willing to discuss privately with me about what kind of pricing I should consider when bidding for used one? Kindly send me a private email if you do. Thanks

[Christopher Giacomo]

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 11:05:31 AM UTC-5, PAGA wrote:
> Are there any owners of DG-100 here who would be willing to discuss privately with me about what kind of pricing I should consider when bidding for used one? Kindly send me a private email if you do. Thanks

Just Wondering, what turned you off of the Pik? Was it the wet wings stories or the problem supporting major fiberglass repairs? I'm starting a similar search, so this thread has been very helpful.
Chris

[qnimc...@gmail.com]

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 10:51:58 AM UTC-4, PAGA wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> After a long break from gliders, last year I moved close to an airfield and resumed flying at the local soaring club on Blanik metal 2-seaters. While this is always a lot of fun I am tempted to finally get my own one-seater and start practice longer flights, with slightly better performance than the L23, and also maybe take it on the road to fly elsewhere in the US.
>
> Most of my previous one-seater experience was on Grob 102, both in Europe and in the US : I was looking for a used one and missed a local sale by a few weeks/days. While searching other available used ships not too far from me, within the set performances and the price range I want to commit to, I have narrowed it down to a PIK20, or a LS-1 or an ASW19, in similar conditions and within my parameters (L/D, sink rate, instruments, size, weight, type, etc... i.e. similar to the Grob) and price range (+/- a few $K).
>
> This is the first time I am considering owning my own ship, and I am sure this forum has seen this kind of question a million times (apologies for the duplicate thread) I searched some of these threads but I need to ask a more experience crowd about my specific choice : how to decide between these 3 fine sailplanes, what should I do/ask/check with the sellers in order avoid obvious mistakes and make it easier to decide?
>
> My main concerns are very "grounded" : how to deal with maintenance (when the manufacturer is no longer around for example), and how hard/easy is it to assemble/store them back in the trailer. Of course I am sure these ships handle differently when in the air but I am not too concerned about learning how to deal with each flying specifics/idiosyncrasy, at this point I feel most of my challenges are actually going to be when on land :-)
>
> Thank you all for your time.

I previously owned an LS-1f ... what a thoroughbred. thinking what you wanted to do and it did it. tight cockpit, but my opine is you were wearing the LS-1f not riding in it. a big draw back is the annual extortion from Herr Webber (DG)to be able to purchase parts, even the L'hottleir safety sleeve. just my opine

[PAGA]

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 9:33:48 PM UTC-5, Christopher Giacomo wrote:
> Just Wondering, what turned you off of the Pik? Was it the wet wings stories or the problem supporting major fiberglass repairs? I'm starting a similar search, so this thread has been very helpful.
> Chris

I have not given up on the PIK, the one I was looking at near me is not visible yet because I asked he went through inspection before driving 5 hours to get there... What worries me about PIKs is the numbers of offerings : it seems that there are a lot offered for sale, here and there, for no good reason other than the sellers might know something we do not. Other than that I have heard good thing about that kind of ship, you have to be ready to use flaps a lot and not rely on spoilers much, some say it's a challenging glider to fly and have recommended to not let low hours pilots get on it too soon without proper briefing and training. Personally I have used flaps on power plane, so I like the idea of a fully flapped glider, even without spoilers, but I have no experience flying a PIK yet.

[jpg...@gmail.com]

The glider market is sophisticated. If there are a number of a certain model being offered at apparently low prices it is less likely that you'll sell it easily and get your money back. The best hope is to sell it to someone who doesn't realise that as a first glider - and so complete the cycle.

(Speaking as someone who bought a Diamant 18 as a first glass glider.)

[Dan Marotta]

My take is that there are more pilots looking for their second ships. First time buyers benefit from the low prices of the older ships which, while no match for the current crop of gliders, can still make a remarkable showing.  After a year or two, you'll want something "better" (read newer), and you'll offer it for about what you paid for it or even a bit more!  Let's say you buy a glider for $20K, fly it for 2 years/300 hours (if you're a wild man!), and sell it for $18K.  You've flown much better performance than you could have rented and paid only about $7/hour plus whatever fixed costs you pay for storage, maintenance, and insurance.  How's that for a deal?

On 11/8/2015 5:01 AM, jpg...@gmail.com wrote:

The glider market is sophisticated.  If there are a number of a certain model being offered at apparently low prices it is less likely that you'll sell it easily and get your money back.  The best hope is to sell it to someone who doesn't realise that as a first glider - and so complete the cycle.

(Speaking as someone who bought a Diamant 18 as a first glass glider.)

--
Dan, 5J

[krasw]

If "major fiberglass repair" means that you need to borrow moulds from factory, I bet you are out of luck with any of these gliders. Price of these is so low that insurance companies won't pay for major repairs. Even broken tail resulting from ground loop can be more expensive to repair than insured hull value. And why repair when you can buy similar glider in one piece from used market? All these gliders mentioned have simple GRP structure, minor damage is easily repaired.

[Dan Marotta]

You are correct about pricing, of course, but I wouldn't expect to see many ADs or service bulletins for ships whose manufacturers are no longer around and I think a 30 year old glider is fully depreciated.  Any decent shop should be able to make repair parts, if needed.  Storage can be in your back yard (assuming you have one).  I used to bring my glider into my walk-out basement over the winter to apply all the TLC that it deserved.

Bottom line is that the price is what the market will bear regardless of what the seller paid unless it's really priced for quick sale.

On 11/8/2015 8:28 PM, PAGA wrote:

Yes but I have found that some sellers think the price someone should pay is equal to "how much money they put in their [beloved] ship".  While it's a good thing to know they loved their glider and probably took great care of it, hoping to recover 100% of the money you put in it is plain naive and ignoring depreciation and the fact that better gliders are now available at the price they paid for their ship 5 or 7 years ago.  And the ship they bought 5 years ago is now 5 years older, probably has new ADs to comply with, some cables to change, a higher probability for some unexpected maintenance, etc...   Also winter is coming, someone needs to pay for storage for a few months, at least here out East  :-)

--
Dan, 5J

[PAGA]

On Monday, November 9, 2015 at 11:11:56 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> ... but I wouldn't expect to

> see many ADs or service bulletins for ships whose manufacturers are
> no longer around and I think a 30 year old glider is fully
> depreciated.  Any decent shop should be able to make repair parts,
> if needed.  Storage can be in your back yard (assuming you have

> one).  ...
> Dan, 5J

That's a very good point, it's like for classic cars: all you need is to know a good trustworthy local mechanic and to maintain a clean/safe storage/garage.

[PAGA]

Well, it turns out it's easier to shop locally: a gentleman in my area made me an offer I could not refuse and I have abandoned all my previous plans (see thread above) because I am now due to send the paperwork for my registering/transferring ownership (to me) of a very nice LS-3a, in a pristine trailer, both located one hour drive from my main residence, and next to a really good airfield for ridge soaring all year round. Thank you all for your inputs here, I look forward to read you all further, especially those of you who will give good advices about the LS-3a :-)

Cheers

[howard banks]

I had a nice Pik 20 and put about 650 hours on it with zero problems. Two suggestions:
Before flying an all-flap glider ask someone to put you in the back seat of a Super Cub and get them to fly (at altitude) at approach speed and put the flaps down so that you get used to the stick pressure required. A nice guy did this for me and the effect was remarkably similar.
Rain and Pik 20 is a well known story and some experimentation in conveniently sized rain showers showed the tales to be true. The Pik when wet will tend to descend very rapidly. A Finnish glider pilot who once was a partner owning a Pik 20 gave me this suggestion: lower the flaps a little (about 8-12 degrees from distant memory) and the problem goes away. OK the glider then doesn't fly that well, but it stops sinking like a brick. Proved this during my experiments.
But then how often do we fly in rain? Not often and this Finnish trick works. Bugs do have an impact on performance but from flying in MD/PA and on bug laden ridges, nothing to be concerned about.
The best bit about a Pik 20 is being able to land in a very tiny piece of field and being certain that it is exceedingly well built with a big strong gear, so rough is less of a problem than with many gliders. Oh and minor dings can be easily fixed with paint. The factory trailer isn't bad either.
So do not discount them. PS: they also go well too.

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 8:51:58 AM UTC-6, PAGA wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> After a long break from gliders, last year I moved close to an airfield and resumed flying at the local soaring club on Blanik metal 2-seaters. While this is always a lot of fun I am tempted to finally get my own one-seater and start practice longer flights, with slightly better performance than the L23, and also maybe take it on the road to fly elsewhere in the US.
>
> Most of my previous one-seater experience was on Grob 102, both in Europe and in the US : I was looking for a used one and missed a local sale by a few weeks/days. While searching other available used ships not too far from me, within the set performances and the price range I want to commit to, I have narrowed it down to a PIK20, or a LS-1 or an ASW19, in similar conditions and within my parameters (L/D, sink rate, instruments, size, weight, type, etc... i.e. similar to the Grob) and price range (+/- a few $K).
>
> This is the first time I am considering owning my own ship, and I am sure this forum has seen this kind of question a million times (apologies for the duplicate thread) I searched some of these threads but I need to ask a more experience crowd about my specific choice : how to decide between these 3 fine sailplanes, what should I do/ask/check with the sellers in order avoid obvious mistakes and make it easier to decide?
>
> My main concerns are very "grounded" : how to deal with maintenance (when the manufacturer is no longer around for example), and how hard/easy is it to assemble/store them back in the trailer. Of course I am sure these ships handle differently when in the air but I am not too concerned about learning how to deal with each flying specifics/idiosyncrasy, at this point I feel most of my challenges are actually going to be when on land :-)
>

> Thank you all for your time.

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, November 9, 2015 at 11:11:56 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:

> I wouldn't expect to see many ADs or service bulletins for ships whose > manufacturers are no longer around

and that is an advantage or disadvantage?

[Dan Marotta]

Dif'rent strokes for dif'rent folks.

Consider that the aircraft was found to be acceptable to the approving authority at the time of its creation and was still considered airworthy when the manufacturer faded into history.  At some point the owner has to decide if he is comfortable flying the aircraft.  The owner of the hangar where I keep my glider is restoring a 65-year old airplane.  From my observation it will be better than original.  So what if there's no manufacturer to tell him that it's safe to fly?  He will make that decision himself and will present it to an inspector for an airworthiness certificate.  I have no doubt it will be approved.  It will be up to him thereafter (and to subsequent owners) to decide that the aircraft is safe to operate.

And, to your original question, I consider it an advantage.

Cheers!
Dan

--
Dan, 5J