Looping a 2-33
Garth Gregoire
the motley crew we have here. Im know I enjoy reading these sorts of
messages.
Showed up and went over my groundwork on rope breaks and spins and
dives. After we finished, the instructor fished a couple of parachutes
out of the back room, and that's when I realized I was in for a really
good time. The weather was perfect... 70 degrees and sunny. We towed
up to about 4500' AGL and released. Considering it was my first flight
of the day, I thought the takeoff and tow went very well. I'm generally
a little rusty on the first flight, but this one was definitly my best
"first flight" yet.
Once at altitude, we cleared the area, and then attempted a couple of
pins from a straight stall. These were interesting, and really showed
how docile the 2-33 can be. I brought the noe up, and then as it
stalled I used the rudder to try and keep the wings level. We were
hoping one wing would fall off and initiate us into a spin, but the 2-33
was just to docile. So next we put the plane into a real shallow bank
angle (10 degrees) and let it stall. As soon as it stalled we held the
stick back and put full rudder into the turn to initiate the spin. It
took me a couple of tries to get the timing right, but eventually we
managed to get it into a couple of good spins. In both cases the glider
unstalled fairly quickly (after about 1 spin) so we had to pull out but
it was still really cool.
After several attempts to both the right and left, we were down to about
1500' AGL, so we started looking for lift. It must have been my lucky
day.. We stumbled onto 800 fpm lift and just cruised right back to
6000'. Real nice and easy. The cool thing was, this allowed us time to
try a few more spins.
After a couple of tries, I suggested we do a few wing overs. So the
instructor took me through 3 or 4 really nice 90 degree wingovers, and
then the coop de grace, we actually looped the 2-33!!! It was REALLY
awesome. 24 flights in the 2-33 and I've never been much of a fan of
the aircraft, but all I have to say is that if you can loop it, it can't
be all that bad.
After the loop we were down kind of low, so we started hunting around
for lift. We didn't find anything substantial, so we bombed over to the
initial point, and I took us down through a really nice landing pattern,
into a really smooth landing. The instructor didn't say anything. My
speed was good through the whole thing... All in all it was a 46 minute
flight, my best to date.
Garth
Long Beach, CA
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jean Richard
>
> After a couple of tries, I suggested we do a few wing overs. So the
> instructor took me through 3 or 4 really nice 90 degree wingovers, and
> then the coop de grace, we actually looped the 2-33!!! It was REALLY
> awesome. 24 flights in the 2-33 and I've never been much of a fan of
> the aircraft, but all I have to say is that if you can loop it, it can't
> be all that bad.
Since the 2-33 is not approved for looping, it's not a good idea to talk
about your illegal experience.
If your club closes its eyes to your instructor, move to another club.
And anyway, move to another instructor. An instructor teaching loop after
only 24 flights and with a glider not approved for looping can k... you
some day.
Bob2nd
as a tow pilot at the Air Force Academy. While towing another 2-33 in the
pattern, I saw a 2-33 up in the practice area to the west of the field, maybe
at 9,000ft or so(3000 agl). It nosed down to gain speed, then pulled up to
vertical, hung there for a second, then fell all the way over on it's back,
completing the loop. I immediately grabbed my mic and said "That was cool, do
it again!". A few seconds later, a shakey cadets voice come over the
radio;"Sir, I just did an inadvertant loop".
After he landed and was interogated, etc.,
it seemed he was testing maneuvering speed--the speed at which you can make a
full deflection of the controls and not exceed the "g" limit of the aircraft.
Just forgot to release some of the back pressure at the right time. That
provided a lot of laughs for a long time....
Todd Burch
from the 2-33 manual: "Inverted flight prohibited". Performing a loop
in a 2-33 is terrible judgement, and it's stupid. It's a great way to
get yourself and others killed.
The engineers who designed the 2-33 know the science of the aircraft
best, and placed a restriction on 2-33 flight that at no time may it be
flown upside down, even in a loop. It doesn't matter if your instructor
has 15,000 aerobatic hours or is the world aerobatic champion...flight
restrictions are placed on an aircraft for a reason. Any instructor that
thinks he has the piloting skill to outsmart science is a downright
fool.
Your instructor is downright reckless and stupid. Get rid of him, and
for the sake of yourself and other possible students coming after him,
report him. It is no wonder why the general aviation accident rate is as
high as it is when you hear idiotic stories like this. It brings to mind
other reckless, fatal accidents such as new pilots "buzzing" their
houses in a 152, pulling out of the flyby, stalling the airplane, and
slamming into the ground. IMHO, the most difficult skill to learn in
flying is good judgement. Apparently your instructor still has yet to
learn this skill.
If you enjoy aerobatics, then fine; get some aerobatic instruction from
an approved pilot IN AN AEROBATIC-APPROVED GLIDER. But by doing this
sort of stunt in a non-aerobatic glider, you're inviting death.
For the sake of yourself and soaring in general, get rid of the
instructor. This time you were lucky. Next time, you may not be.
Just my two cents,
Todd Burch
Illini Glider Club
Bruce Hoult
(Bob2nd) wrote:
> it seemed he was testing maneuvering speed--the speed at which you can make a
> full deflection of the controls and not exceed the "g" limit of the aircraft.
> Just forgot to release some of the back pressure at the right time.
Clearly you can do a lot of thinking on the way down from 9000 ft...
-- Bruce
Dicksortie
may be leaving a structural failure for someone else to experience.
Dick
N511SZ
John Giddy
It was 9000 QNH
John G.
--
John Giddy Mangalore Gliding Club Inc.
5/287 Barkers Rd. http://www.gfa.org.au/vic/mgc/
Kew, Vic. 3101
Australia
Bruce Hoult <bruce...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:brucehoult-11...@bruce.bgh...
Ian Johnston
: from the 2-33 manual: "Inverted flight prohibited". Performing a loop
: in a 2-33 is terrible judgement, and it's stupid. It's a great way to
: get yourself and others killed.
Apart from anything else, there is (or should be) no inverted flight at any
point of a loop. Just because the glider is upside down doesn't mean that it's
flying inverted. The lift is still directed from the wheel, though the
fuselage and "up" towards the ground.
All that a loop involves, structurally, is a bit of flying at 3.5G, then
some flying at rather less.
: The engineers who designed the 2-33 know the science of the aircraft
: best, and placed a restriction on 2-33 flight that at no time may it be
: flown upside down, even in a loop.
There may be other reasons for prohibiting a loop, such as having enough
that by staying within G limitations at the bottom you aren't going fast
enough to have control authority at the top. But it's not an inverted
manoevre.
Ian, whos glider is approved for inverted flight.
VW
A couple of points:
1. Most of the accidents occur in the take off and landing phases of
flight. One probable reason for this is that they are far busier than other
times, and since most of the flying that we teach is of the "stay away from
others, don't bank more than 30 degs, etc etc". people get to the pattern
and get panicked - because they have so little time in an aircraft with a
high cockpit workload, having spent most of their flying hours (or minutes)
swanning around at the top of thermals twidling their thumbs.
2. So, I suggest an alternative - that a few low passes, loops, wingovers
etc actually get the student used to higher workloads. And get them able to
think of a take-off or landing as a fairly normal workload, so that they can
be attentive and alert, and able to cope with sudden events like windshear,
a towplane returning and suddenly appearing 10 seconds away from collision
etc.
God, I'm so sick of the "you'll kill us all" stuff from the grundies, when
most of the deaths seem to be responsible, cautious folk who, if trained a
little more in unusual cockpit loads (the way that commercial pilots are,
repeatedly), might kill themselves less. Not more.
OK, OK it isn't the wisest thing to loop an old beast like a 2-33 (actually,
I don't like even getting into one!). But done gently, it's pretty
harmless - probably far less harmless than ridge soaring it on a blustery
day. And it has two big benefits. It incents students like this one (who is
probably thinking that perhaps he should have spent his money on another
hobby after all the crap he received from all of you on this one). And it
gets them used to unusual attitudes and high cockpit workloads.
One other benefit - it prevents the far more dangerous scenario of someone
buying "stick and rudder", reading it at home, sneaking off where no-one is
watching, and teaching themsellves how to do this stuff - with occasional 5
g (or even worse in this aircraft, -3 g) periods as a result.
So for crying out loud, back off!
... and that's MY two cents' worth.
Andrew
> Garth,
>
> from the 2-33 manual: "Inverted flight prohibited". Performing a loop
> in a 2-33 is terrible judgement, and it's stupid. It's a great way to
> get yourself and others killed.
>
> The engineers who designed the 2-33 know the science of the aircraft
> best, and placed a restriction on 2-33 flight that at no time may it be
Jonathan Gogan
category
and IS NOT an inverted manouvre.
If it was dangerous / reckless etc (spot the foaming mouths!) your
instructor would not have done it?
J.
Ian Johnston <engs...@sable.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:8cuv28$4ue$2...@news.ox.ac.uk...
> Todd Burch <tbu...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> : from the 2-33 manual: "Inverted flight prohibited". Performing a loop
> : in a 2-33 is terrible judgement, and it's stupid. It's a great way to
> : get yourself and others killed.
>
any
> point of a loop. Just because the glider is upside down doesn't mean that
it's
> flying inverted. The lift is still directed from the wheel, though the
> fuselage and "up" towards the ground.
>
> All that a loop involves, structurally, is a bit of flying at 3.5G, then
> some flying at rather less.
>
> : best, and placed a restriction on 2-33 flight that at no time may it be
> : flown upside down, even in a loop.
>
Rodney E Carey
>> from the 2-33 manual: "Inverted flight prohibited". Performing a loop
>> in a 2-33 is terrible judgement, and it's stupid. It's a great way to
>> get yourself and others killed.
>>
>> The engineers who designed the 2-33 know the science of the aircraft
>> best, and placed a restriction on 2-33 flight that at no time may it be
>> flown upside down, even in a loop. It doesn't matter if your instructor
>> has 15,000 aerobatic hours or is the world aerobatic champion...flight
>> restrictions are placed on an aircraft for a reason. Any instructor that
>> thinks he has the piloting skill to outsmart science is a downright
>> fool.
>>
>> Your instructor is downright reckless and stupid. Get rid of him, and
>> for the sake of yourself and other possible students coming after him,
>> report him. It is no wonder why the general aviation accident rate is as
>> high as it is when you hear idiotic stories like this. It brings to mind
>> other reckless, fatal accidents such as new pilots "buzzing" their
>> houses in a 152, pulling out of the flyby, stalling the airplane, and
>> slamming into the ground. IMHO, the most difficult skill to learn in
>> flying is good judgement. Apparently your instructor still has yet to
>> learn this skill.
>>
>> If you enjoy aerobatics, then fine; get some aerobatic instruction from
>> an approved pilot IN AN AEROBATIC-APPROVED GLIDER. But by doing this
>> sort of stunt in a non-aerobatic glider, you're inviting death.
>>
>> For the sake of yourself and soaring in general, get rid of the
>> instructor. This time you were lucky. Next time, you may not be.
>>
>> Just my two cents,
>>
>> Todd Burch
>> Illini Glider Club
>>
>>
>
>
>
There is in fact a Schweizer service bulletin that talks about this
very subject (Service Bulletin No. SA-003
Subject: Aerobatics in Schweizer Sailplanes - SGU 1-7; SGS 2-8 (TG-2);
SGS 2-12 (TG-3); SGU 1-29; SGU 1-20; SGU 1-21; SGU 2-22, A, C, CK, E,
2EK; SGS 1-23, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, H15; SGS 1-24; SGS 1-26, A, B, C,
D, E; SGS 2-32; SGS 2-33, A, AK; SGS 1-34, R; SGS 1-35C; SGS 1-36 (25
Mar 1987).
SA-003 a pdf file from the 1-26 assn can be found at
http://www.serve.com/126ASSN/docs/sbsa003.pdf
Rodney
Rodney E Carey
Man has not evolved one inch from the slime that spawned him
ALPHA
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:20:18 GMT, "VW" <aain...@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >Well well. The mother grundies are out in full force on this one.
> >
> >... and that's MY two cents' worth.
> >
> >Andrew
> >
> >> Garth,
>
> There is in fact a Schweizer service bulletin that talks about this
> very subject (Service Bulletin No. SA-003
> Subject: Aerobatics in Schweizer Sailplanes - SGU 1-7; SGS 2-8 (TG-2);
> SGS 2-12 (TG-3); SGU 1-29; SGU 1-20; SGU 1-21; SGU 2-22, A, C, CK, E,
> 2EK; SGS 1-23, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, H15; SGS 1-24; SGS 1-26, A, B, C,
> D, E; SGS 2-32; SGS 2-33, A, AK; SGS 1-34, R; SGS 1-35C; SGS 1-36 (25
> Mar 1987).
> SA-003 a pdf file from the 1-26 assn can be found at
> http://www.serve.com/126ASSN/docs/sbsa003.pdf
>
> Rodney
>
> Rodney E Carey
>
> Man has not evolved one inch from the slime that spawned him
Now you have gone and become a "mother grundie" Rodney by reciting the facts as
written by the manufacturer. But what the hell, what do they know.
By the way, what IS a "mother grundie"?
Fred Steadman
serving attempt to limit liability by taking away some of the capability
they had sold their customers, as they were leaving the glider business.
--
Fred Steadman
Irving, Texas
Bruce Hoult
Carey) wrote:
> There is in fact a Schweizer service bulletin that talks about this
> very subject (Service Bulletin No. SA-003
> Subject: Aerobatics in Schweizer Sailplanes - SGU 1-7; SGS 2-8 (TG-2);
> SGS 2-12 (TG-3); SGU 1-29; SGU 1-20; SGU 1-21; SGU 2-22, A, C, CK, E,
> 2EK; SGS 1-23, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, H15; SGS 1-24; SGS 1-26, A, B, C,
> D, E; SGS 2-32; SGS 2-33, A, AK; SGS 1-34, R; SGS 1-35C; SGS 1-36 (25
> Mar 1987).
> SA-003 a pdf file from the 1-26 assn can be found at
> http://www.serve.com/126ASSN/docs/sbsa003.pdf
"the lawyers made us say this"
-- Bruce
VW
whether it's South African, Zimbabwean, English or American. Its meaning is,
surely, self-apparent!
Sheesh - I was hoping for a little more contention than that!
Andrew
sis...@my-deja.com
thread than they are in the air. The first, critical posting from the
Illini member was a clear expression of a conservative, safety conscious
point of view, and the postings that followed expressed the pros and
cons better than I could.
So, to the most conservative one, I say ... it was me, I confess, I'll
come out with my hands up if you promise not to shoot, I hope Johnnie
Cochrane is on the AOPA list of attorneys.
Some details:
2-33 limits: 98 mph, +4.67 G's, -2.56, inverted flight prohibited ... I
interpret to mean sustained, intentional negative G, neither of which
are included in my loop efforts.
Entry and exit G-load: about 2.4 - 2.6
Entry and exit airspeed: about 95 mph
Quality of the loop: Pathetic, due to the low G-load, falling through
the top but fun anyway ... ask Garth.
Purpose: to have fun, not to train at looping, that's a job for a Grob
103 or equivalent, not for unusual attitude training (I was on the
controls), not for consciousness expansion, just fun after spins with
good altitude and parachutes on and an enthusiastic student. And Garth
doesn't expect to go out and do loops when no one is watching ... do
you, Garth? ... Garth?
History: A 1960 something vintage black-and-white Soaring magazine
cover photo from the back of a 2-33 on top of a loop, not a source of
controversy at the time that I know of.
Absent from history: Structural failures of 2-33's flown within their G
and airspeed limits and not into terrain. Yes, I would hate to have to
bail out of the awkward back seat, and the fact that it is the most
crashworthy aircraft ever built is not a good argument for risky
maneuvers. The most likely reason to bail out would doubtless be a
mid-air collision, at any time, not just acro.
FAR's: It is not a violation to loop a 2-33, with parachutes and
sufficient altitude, until there is an accident (pulling the wings off)
hinting in a roundabout way at negligence.
Urgent safety concerns: Pilots of all levels of experience think that if
they can tolerate the brief spike of excessive G they use on pullout of
a dive, that the airframe can too. WRONG. Grobs get cracks emanating
from their spoiler boxes (ours never did though I used it for training
and demonstrations) and Schweizers get faint V-shaped dimples on the
upper surface D-tube skins between ribs, in the case of 2-33's above the
point of strut attachment. I've had very experienced pilots hit 6 G's
in the Grob with me already pushing forward to restrict it going higher.
In fact, ‘pulling out' of a vertical downline usually means pushing
forward to limit the pitch rate that trim forces would generate; trim
forces would exceed a conservative G-load. Good, smooth pilots tolerate
airspeed build-up while limiting the G-load to their pre-determined
target for the maneuver.
Teaser: I know how to make a G-103 look just like it did a Lomcevak;
sorry, it's proprietary.
Cheers, Galen Fisher
mil...@cgpp.com
Fred Steadman <fst...@fastlane.net> writes:
> There are no "facts" in the Schweizer Service Bulletin. Merely a self
> serving attempt to limit liability by taking away some of the capability
> they had sold their customers, as they were leaving the glider business.
For the present case of the 2-33, the SB didn't change anything. My
copy of the flight manual (dated 1970) says: "While the 2-33 is
capable of performing some aerobatic maneuvers, they are not
recommended and inverted flight is not permitted". Loops might or
might not count as "inverted flight" but they're definitely aerobatic.
In other words, Schweizer always recommended against it, you can't
write it off as 1980's legal posturing. I'll leave it to others to
argue over whether it's dumb to do aerobatics against the
manufacturer's recommendation.
- Judah
--
Judah Milgram mil...@cgpp.com
P.O. Box 8376, Langley Park, MD 20787
(301) 422-4626 (-3047 fax)
Ian Johnston
: Now you have gone and become a "mother grundie" Rodney by reciting the facts as
: written by the manufacturer. But what the hell, what do they know.
Interesting that the bulletin in question says that Schweitzer does not
"approve or recommend" aerobatics "despite any language to the contrary
in any of the Flight-Erection and Maintenance Manuals or Pilot's Operating
Manual [sic] referenced herein." So it looks as if the people who designed
the gliders thought, in some cases, that aerobatics were OK, but
Schweitzer have now changed their minds. I smell lawyers! Or if not,
how many other mistakes did the designers make ... would you fly a glider
whose manufacturer appears to admit that their engineers got the
stress calculations wrong...?
Yours helpfully,
Ian
ALPHA
You took off with parachutes? You wore a parachute is the back seat of a
2-33? You must be of rather small stature or your 2-33 is much different
than our three! Now don't stop being truthful and open.
Brad <Brad Hill >
My first lessons were in the 2-33 also......it was really cool when my
instructor would take the ship through the spin routine......if I recall
correctly, we even took it to 4-6 turns! But.......before ya'll start
going nuts about this.....this same instructor was also known for
rolling inverted at cloud base, then popping out of the cloud top still
inverted! He did this in a IS-28B2. I was never in the aircraft when
this happened, and it could be just another urban ledgend, but I kinda
doubt it. Anyways........oh, it was SO ilegal!
Without reading the following replies to your initial post, I can
imagine you are in for quite a read!
Brad
N199RK
In article <8cthfq$spa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> After a couple of tries, I suggested we do a few wing overs. So the
> instructor took me through 3 or 4 really nice 90 degree wingovers, and
> then the coop de grace, we actually looped the 2-33!!! It was REALLY
> awesome. 24 flights in the 2-33 and I've never been much of a fan of
> the aircraft, but all I have to say is that if you can loop it, it
can't
> be all that bad.
>
> After the loop we were down kind of low, so we started hunting around
> for lift. We didn't find anything substantial, so we bombed over to
the
> initial point, and I took us down through a really nice landing
pattern,
> into a really smooth landing. The instructor didn't say anything. My
> speed was good through the whole thing... All in all it was a 46
minute
> flight, my best to date.
>
> Garth
> Long Beach, CA
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
--
Brad
sis...@my-deja.com
> You took off with parachutes? You wore a parachute is the back seat
of a
> 2-33? You must be of rather small stature or your 2-33 is much
different
> than our three! Now don't stop being truthful and open.
>
>
Yes, I have a National backpack, an 11 pounder, my student who sat in
the front had a Security 150 and we both weigh around 150 lbs.
The FAA presently interprets the parachute requirement not to apply to
spin training with a certified instructor, even at the student level,
though that interpretation has shifted over the years, and I wear
'chutes for all spin training.
Garth
>> (who is probably thinking that perhaps he should have spent
>> his money on another hobby after all the crap he received from
>> all of you on this one). And it gets them used to unusual
>> attitudes and high cockpit workloads.
I have to respond to this ever increasing thread. Whether or not
it is safe to loop a 2-33, I'll leave that decision in the hands
of my instructor, who has already posted his thoughts on the
matter. (Thanks Galen!) I trust him implicitly when it comes to
flying decisions, and am never worried at all when in the air
flying with him.
However, I would like to make a couple of comments regarding all
of the negative postings. I'll be honest, when I first saw some
of them, they really did turn my stomach. Instead of encouraging
a new pilot, you jumped all over me. Heads up here folks: That
is NOT the way to grow membership in the sport!
A little more background on me.. I'm a 25 year old, working in
the technology field, and I've participated in my fair share of
extreme sports over the years (windsurfing, surfing, skydiving,
autocross, freestyle skiing). Why did I end up taking up
soaring? A number of reasons, mainly dating back to my youth
where I spent time in the Civil Air Patrol, which got me
interested in small planes.
Anyways, to my point... I am NOT a 50+ year old wanting to take
lessons, and as such the lessons I get should be more tailored to
the type of experience *I* enjoy. I'm the first to realize that
I need to spend time working on coordinated turns, and landing
patterns, and emergency procedures, but those aren't very
exciting! My hat goes off to Galen, who is constantly trying to
find the right mix of exciting and practical to keep me
interested in the sport, and progressing along towards solo.
What I think a lot of the posters here don't realize, is that all
of my friends are like me, they have a significant amount of
expendable cash to blow on hobbies. When I come back from my
lesson and tell them I towed up, flew in a circle for 10 minutes,
and landed, the glaze in their eyes is obvious AND
understandable. But after my last lesson, when I was telling
people about the spins, and wingovers, and the loop they were
really interested. Suddenly I was getting questions like how
much does it cost, what's it like, how long does it take to get
your license, etc...
The bottom line is this sport has a tremendous amount to offer to
all different types of people. If you enjoy just taking a high
tow, and gazing at the scenery, GREAT!, keep doing it! But the
other side is that the 2-33 *IS* capabale of entertaining and
enthralling people like me, and I think it should be used to it's
full potential.
More thoughts from a 20-something,
Garth
Long Beach, CA
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Tom & Linda Dixon
I noted in your first message the enthusiasm you felt for the flight under
discussion. At first, I felt that looping the 2-33 was a pretty stupid maneuver
for a low time student but then remembered one of my early instructional flights
where we were practicing spins in a 2-32 and the instructor asked me if I wanted
to see a loop. It was fantastic. I don't want to get into the legal stuff
about loops in a 2-33 or 2-32 but the flight was memorable. In completing my
training I did have a number of flights where I launched and made a few turns
and landed, not much to brag about. Not every flight will be a real kick in the
pants. When you finish your training and get out there by yourself, you may
take up aerobatics for the thrill or you may find that flying hours and
distance without an engine is also thrilling. Whatever you do, if you tell your
friends and peers, with excitement and joy, they will want to find out more
about the sport. Good luck and keep soaring. The greatest part of our sport is
the joy it brings to each of us who has the opportunity to participate.
Tom
>
Robertmudd1u
glider whose manufacturer appears to admit that their engineers got the stress
calculations wrong...?>
I must come to the defense of Schweizer on this. Aviation in the U.S. is full
of examples of pilots teaching themselves acro without the benefit of qualified
instruction or in aircraft not approved for it. The Albuquerque Club had a 1-26
damaged this way and I believe a 1-34 at Black Forest had its wing dihedral
changed by acro means. I am sure these are not the only occurances.
If I were the head of Schweizer I would do the same thing, forbid acro, and
I'll bet you would too. To not do so would be risking the net worth of your
company on the roll of dice that is the U.S. legal system now. What CEO would
do that? It is your first line of defense against lawsuits in the U.S. Then
comes the level of your engineering. Sorry to say but that is the way it is
here.
There is another aspect to this that hits closer to home.
If while performing un-approved maneuvers in a club glider there was an
accident and the student died, the glider club could quite easily be sued out
of existence by the dead student's family. The club probably knows this
instructor does this kind of flying and does nothing to stop it. That leaves
the club wide open.
Acro in aircraft not designed and approved for such purposes is foolhardy and
in the example cited gives the student the wrong message.
Robert Mudd
Ian Johnston
: <Or if not, how many other mistakes did the designers make ... would you fly a
: glider whose manufacturer appears to admit that their engineers got the stress
: calculations wrong...?>
: I must come to the defense of Schweizer on this.
: ...
: If I were the head of Schweizer I would do the same thing, forbid acro, and
: I'll bet you would too. To not do so would be risking the net worth of your
: company on the roll of dice that is the U.S. legal system now.
My "Or, if not" did refer to lawyers. Which I think is the more likely
solution, by the way. A couple of posters claimed that the glider in
question was not designed to loop - I was trying in perhaps an over obscure
way to say that it looks as if at least some of the gliders were designed
to loop, but that for other reasons the manufacturers don't want you to
try it.
: Acro in aircraft not designed and approved for such purposes is foolhardy and
: in the example cited gives the student the wrong message.
Mixed case here - an aircraft designed for it but not approved for it ...
Ian
PAPA3
old fashioned FUN), but there's also educational value in pushing the
envelope once in a while. Yeah, it needs to be done carefully and with
proper explanation (I'm doing this because...) I've had several students
that needed to see that the airplane can do a lot more than fly around in
30 degree banks all day, just to get comfortable. A loop, wingovers,
whatever can help to show that the wings don't just fall off when you push
things (or when you GET pushed, for example in rotor). I think my dad
told me that these were called "confidence building flights" in his Navy
days.
Anyway, disclaimers galore here (don't try it without training, use chutes,
be very careful, yadda yadda yadda). And I'm not advocating that anybody
violate any club or operator policies. It takes all kinds in this sport,
and I for one loved the story.
sis...@my-deja.com wrote in article <8d16bm$llo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> In fact, 叢ulling out' of a vertical downline usually means pushing
> forward to limit the pitch rate that trim forces would generate; trim
> forces would exceed a conservative G-load. Good, smooth pilots tolerate
> airspeed build-up while limiting the G-load to their pre-determined
> target for the maneuver.
>
> Teaser: I know how to make a G-103 look just like it did a Lomcevak;
> sorry, it's proprietary.
>
> Cheers, Galen Fisher
>
>
Martin Spieck
>
> It doesn't matter if your instructor
> has 15,000 aerobatic hours or is the world aerobatic champion...
Don't think Jerzy Makula would loop a 2-33...
Blue skies,
Seck
Mike Koerner
[after MRS.GRUNDY a strait laced carping neighbor, often discussed but never
appearing in Thomas Morton's comedy Speed the Plow (1798)]
-Funk & Wagnalls Standard
College Dictionary
Kathryn Koerner
David Clayworth
One of my most vivid memories of learning to glide (not unfortunately to
soar) with the Air Cadets was being in a Sedbergh (brick with open
cockpit for those of you who are not familiar) when my instructor looped
it. During the downwind leg of the circuit! Didn't do anything for my
desire to fly, but I was a nervous sixteen year old.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
David Clayworth clay...@golden.net
Ontario Canada
-------------------------------------------------------
Dan Marotta
I'm a 50+ flyer... Actually, I've been flying for 27 years, 15 in gliders and I
still get a thrill just from going up. People often ask me why I bothered to
take a tow on such a crappy day and the only response is that I LOVE TO FLY!!!
I've taken a BFR in a 2-33 using a winch in February in Colorado. What a gas!
Stayed up over 45 minutes on one launch and even gained height. I've looped,
rolled, spun various gliders, though not a 2-33. I helped fly off the
experimental time no one of the first PW-5s in the area (maybe the first).
During those flights, I performed loops, rolls, spins, split-S, Immelmann,
Clover Leaf, inverted flight, winch launch, and air tow. I wanted to be sure
that the owner could perform any of the maneuvers legally after the experimental
time was flown off.
The only problem I had was that the glide wasn't quite as good as that of my
LS-6a and I had to pay more attention to getting back to the field.
My best advice to any new pilot is to never stop learning and never let go of
the joy of flying.
Dan
Garth wrote:
> snip.
>
> Anyways, to my point... I am NOT a 50+ year old wanting to take
> lessons, and as such the lessons I get should be more tailored to
> the type of experience *I* enjoy. I'm the first to realize that
> I need to spend time working on coordinated turns, and landing
> patterns, and emergency procedures, but those aren't very
> exciting! My hat goes off to Galen, who is constantly trying to
> find the right mix of exciting and practical to keep me
> interested in the sport, and progressing along towards solo.
>
snip
mik...@gmail.com
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/SGS_233__Schweizer__Flight_Manual_D7C2581F1DF8E.pdf
son_of_flubber
> every 2-33 manual i have seen says mild aerobatcs to 80 mph can be done (1-5 in link below). To loop a 2-33 is not dangerous.
You sir are dangerously uninformed about aerobatics in Schweitzer gliders
Service Bulletin 'SA-003 Aerobatics in Schweizer Sailplane 25 Mar 1987'
supersedes the POH. Aerobatics are not approved.
A scan of the SB can be downloaded from http://www.klsoaring.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=2:service-letters&Itemid=6
Dan Marotta
Dan Marotta
Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas
Read it and interpret it as you like. A known "hot dog" pilot pulled a wing off a 1-26 in Florida attempting aerobatics, which may have been the catalyst for this Service Bulletin. (Intervention needed at the club level for hot doggin' in club sailplanes and towplanes?)
Don't assume, read the FAA Definition of "Aerobatics" in FAR 91.303. No it is NOT the 30 degree nose up and 60 degree bank rule -- that's for wearing parachutes per FAR 91.307(c)
Also in 91.307(c) note that the only rating the spin training proficiency is "required" is for flight instructor. All other spin training flights require a parachute (with a current inspection.)
And just to clarify, spin training is not included (but stalls are required) in FAR part 61 for student solo, private and commercial pre-checkride training, however it is absolutely essential to teach the importance of coordinated flight and spin recoveries before solo, from spins that may occur in low altitude turns (low "save" or non-standard pattern), after a low-energy low pass, an uncoordinated base to final "overshoot" turn, a turn back after a low "PT3", when thermaling, when attempting cloud flying or "hot-doggin' "at any altitude.
By the way, I know that FAA inspectors are watching your videos on YouTube! So hold my beer and watch this . . .
I like chandelles and looping my new Schleicher ASK-21. It is the main aerobatic trainer in Europe. Because I could, I had it certificated at import into the USA as "Aerobatic".
But I REALLY enjoy teaching "soaring" . . . reading the sky, bracketing thermals, getting high and going cross-country. Isn't that what we REALLY do, as "lame" as that may seem to some?
If you want to experience or learn sailplane aerobatics, go to an instructor that specializes in it, in a sailplane properly certificated (and with a "G" meter.) For example, see the monthly full page ad inside the front cover of your SOARING magazine (Arizona Soaring.)
Using up MY 9 lives, one or two at a time in west Texas, USA . . .
Burt
Bill T
BillT
Dan Marotta
Big difference between a 2-33 and a T-33a BillT
Dan Marotta
Waveguru
Boggs
wby0...@aol.com
And isn't anybody going to comment on the Security 150? Come on people!
MM
Bob Pasker
>lessons, and as such the lessons I get should be more tailored to
>the type of experience *I* enjoy.
But I do take issue with the above statement that once you turn "50+" you stop having fun doing extreme sports.
I got my power license at 39, helis at 43, took up snowboarding at 40, skiingi at 50, summited Grand Teton at 48 (via the classic exum ridge), advanced open water scuba diving at 47, and yes, got my glider license at 54.
So maybe you want to turn in your "fun card" when you hit 30, but not me.
--bob
Waveguru
kirk.stant
>
> Service Bulletin 'SA-003 Aerobatics in Schweizer Sailplane 25 Mar 1987'
>
> supersedes the POH. Aerobatics are not approved.
Really? A lot of pilots exceed the structural design levels of their gliders without having to resort to fancy aerobatics - plain old takeoffs and landings seem to do just fine!
As has been posted elsewhere in this thread, this was just a cop-out by Schweizer to limit liability. Probably a good business move in the US, but it has NOTHING to do with the suitability of Schweizer gliders to do some aerobatics. The 2-32 is an excellent case in point - anyone who ever watched Les Horvath's airshow act in his yellow 2-32 can attest to that! And there is plenty of video of 1-26s being happily looped and rolled.
That being said, I'd be more concerned with the age of some of those horrible beasts!
Do yourself a favor and get some acro training (if you haven't already) - perhaps you will understand better what the load limits of an aircraft really mean. If you can't loop a glider safely within it's load and speed limits, you are the one who is "dangerously uninformed about aerobatics"!
Kirk
66
son_of_flubber
> Did you actually read the Service Bulletin? It says "Aerobatics are not approved or RECOMMENDED" - because "the structural design levels of the sailplane could be exceeded".
Mik cites 2-33 POH to underscore his claim that 'To loop a 2-33 is not dangerous. He overlooks that Service Bulletin 'SA-003 Aerobatics in Schweizer Sailplane 25 Mar 1987' supersedes the POH.
That is a black and white case of being 'uninformed'. It's irresponsible (aka dangerous) to propagate misinformation wrt the manufacturer's position on the suitability of an aircraft for aerobatics.
That's my only point. Anyone who chooses to do aerobatics in a 2-33 should be aware of the manufacturer's position and in particular they should be aware that the POH was superseded by a service bulletin.
WRT how I will choose to fly a 2-33, the accumulated abuse and neglect of most 2-33s outweighs the possibility that SA-003 was 'liability dodging BS' back in 1987 (28 years ago).
Dan Marotta
I have a 280 sq ft ram air 'chute. Probably way overkill, but I ordered it before I took the training. I'm happy that, in the absence of high winds (at Moriarty?) I can do a zero speed (vertical and horizontal) landing with it.
Dan Marotta
Nick
> I have a 280 sq ft ram air 'chute. Probably way overkill, but I
> ordered it before I took the training. I'm happy that, in the
> absence of high winds (at Moriarty?) I can do a zero speed (vertical
> and horizontal) landing with it.
Dan Marotta
Dan Marotta
Jonathan St. Cloud
Dan Marotta
Not to already beat a dead horse, but Galen Fisher is a great instructor with years of instruction given. I am sure he is and was safe to loop a 2-33. Most people cannot loop a helicopter either, but those that can are well qualified to so. Bob Hoover did things with a twin commander (not aerobatic aircraft)like loops, rolls etc., that only a few pilots in the world could do. Both Galen and Bob keep the aircraft with the envelope when performing these maneuvers.
Dan Marotta
ifee...@hotmail.com
Nick
> From my jumping I'd estimate about 3 to 3 1/2 seconds, but that's
> simply by counting from drogue deployment to full canopy. Of course
> they say 1,000' minimum but, if I got hit on downwind and the nose
> started down, I think I'd have a better chance with the 'chute than
> with riding the glider to the ground. With the sport rigs the
> automatic baro/timer for the reserve fires at 1,000', IIRC, and the
> 'chute seems fully opened by about 500'.
>
Dan Marotta
I watched the first inspection/repack of my ram air chute and I though I saw a slider. I know they have them on the sport rigs which I've jumped with. I'll have to ask my rigger. I know the base jumpers don't use a slider.
Dan Marotta
Nick
> Interesting comment about the runner, I learned it as a slider, but
> a rose by any other name...
>
>
>
> I watched the first inspection/repack of my ram air chute and I
> though I saw a slider. I know they have them on the sport rigs
> which I've jumped with. I'll have to ask my rigger. I know the
> base jumpers don't use a slider.
>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYGN1Y2bfIs Shows runners in use.