Flarmnet

[Karl Kunz]

Tried to log on to the Flarmnet site and got the following message:

"Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /files/lxfile.php on this server.
Server unable to read htaccess file, denying access to be safe"

Anyone else have this problem?

[kinsell]

Yes

[kinsell]

On 05/23/2018 08:26 PM, Karl Kunz wrote:

Now it's saying the domain has just been purchased.

[rroz...@gmail.com]

Well, you know the truth.....It's aliens.....or maybe even the Russians.....or hmmm???

"The truth is out there....."

[andrea.s...@flarm.com]

Relax. GDPR-related changes. Should be back in the next days.

[andrea.s...@flarm.com]

> Relax. GDPR-related changes. Should be back in the next days.

back online.

[JS]

Today I'm unable to log in to FLARMnet.
Tried latest firefox (ad blocker disabled for the site) and Opera.
Anyone else seeing this?
Thanks,
Jim

[b4soaring]

Working for me just now (Firefox with Adblock Plus.)

[Dan Daly]

Same for me, Firefox, Adblock free, from Canada.

[JS]

Thanks.
Jim

[Shaun Wheeler]

It would be great if somebody came up with a non-proprietary, affordable equivalent to FLARM.

Thanks in advance if anybody ever does it. I like the concept. I really do. But not enough to fork this much cash.

[joesimmers]

>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance if anybody ever does it. I like the concept. I really do. But not enough to fork this much cash.>>>>>>>>>

It only needs to work once to pay for itself, and it has
already done that for me.

[Nick Kennedy]

Shaun
Once you spend a week flying with others at a Flarm mandatory event you will be AMAZED at how many gliders you never see and how many close calls you will have but would have NEVER even seen.
As Joe Simmers stated you only need one save for it to pay for itself, I've had many.
Cheap insurance if you ask me and IT WORKS GREAT!

[Wyll Surf Air]

Sorry to hijack this thread but Shaun someone already has. $60 plus a smart phone running XCSoar is all you need.

https://github.com/lyusupov/SoftRF/wiki/Prime-Edition-MkII

[Martin Gregorie]

There's a big problem with that system: most other aircraft, which -if
they carry any conspicuity device, will have ADSB, UAT, PilotAware, FLARM
or PowerFLARM, won't be able to see it.

Given that FLARM is the defacto global standard system, the last thing we
need is yet another conspicuity device that's not FLARM-compatible.

Having Pilot Aware is bad enough, but at least that system can see where
FLARM-equipped aircraft are via the OGN network.

However, it IS interesting to know that you think your life isn't worth
£1000 ($1300).



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Wyll Surf Air]

@Martin that us just plain wrong. The Soft RF can be picked up by any Flarm or Power Flarm equipped aircraft. I have used it at contest before and I was able to see all my competitors and they were all able to see me. I agree it would be nice to have ADSB in as well but for $60 you can get 80% of what flarm does for 5% the cost. Paired with a good transponder and it works well for me. I think technology's like this are the future of soaring. If we can't make the sport more affordable then we run the risk of it dying out all together.

[uneekc...@gmail.com]

I don’t want some idiot staring at his flarm hoping it saves them or me. I want that idiots eyes OUT of the cockpit and scanning for traffic. How did most of us ever keep from smacking into each other in pre-flarm decades when we had 70 plus glider contests doing out n returns? We managed just fine cause guys knew they had to depend on their vigilance to stay alive. And before you rush in and say back in the “old days” we did have a bunch of midairs, let me remind you that the vast majority of those were in gaggles with a bunch of guys where a flarm is useless and only your eyes and personal vigilance counted.

[Martin Gregorie]

A FLARM makes rapid, loud beeps that get your attention if a problem is
shaping up, so you don't have to look at it at all if you're in traffic.
Also, if everybody is being sensible the FLARM should not sound off at
all. I've often been in multiply occupied thermals with FLARM staying
silent because everybody was paying attention and flying safely.

I use the old-fashioned clockface display with 12 green/red LEDs for
direction and another two for bandit above/below. It may not show as much
detail as an all singing, all dancing multicolour display, but its easy
to see what you need to know in a rapid single glance before looking out
in the relevant direction, seeing the bandit, and acting accordingly.

[uneekc...@gmail.com]

Martin, the issue is dependance on an alert vs scan diligence. I fly pipeline patrol in the winter in and out of naval moa’s. I have dual garmin 430’s with adsb in out and every bell n whistle one could dream of including audible warning annunciation. The problem comes when encountering someone who’s adsb is inop or not on etc. I have encountered naval training flights on three separate occasions who had no signal presence. I found them in my scan and avoided. The problem becomes a real one and is becoming more so every day when folks are subconsciously “trusting” their flarm to alert them.
Dan

[Martin Gregorie]

On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 15:10:24 -0800, uneekcowgirl wrote:

> Martin, the issue is dependance on an alert vs scan diligence.
>

Fair point. It's a long time since I've flown a glider without FLARM
fitted. All our club gliders are equipped as well as my Libelle, which
got it installed nine years ago. My eyes are outside despite having FLARM
because there are still some non-FLARM gliders around as well as blind GA
drivers.

[Ramy]

I am surprised no one corrected you yet...
We managed just fine before flarm??? Did you count how many midairs used to happen in contests and non contests all over the world before flarm comparing to the number of midair’s since flarm was introduced??
While you don’t want some idiot flying with flarm near you, I don’t want some idiot flying without flarm anywhere near me. Other than in a gaggle, if you believe you can see and avoid another glider in collision course with you , you give yourself way too much credit. Your chances of midair are the same as if you were flying blind folded. The only thing that saved you so far is the big sky.


Ramy

[Eric Greenwell]

uneekc...@gmail.com wrote on 3/4/2020 11:23 AM:
> I don’t want some idiot staring at his flarm hoping it saves them or me. I want that idiots eyes OUT of the cockpit and scanning for traffic. How did most of us ever keep from smacking into each other in pre-flarm decades when we had 70 plus glider contests doing out n returns? We managed just fine cause guys knew they had to depend on their vigilance to stay alive.. And before you rush in and say back in the “old days” we did have a bunch of midairs, let me remind you that the vast majority of those were in gaggles with a bunch of guys where a flarm is useless and only your eyes and personal vigilance counted.
>
How many hours have your flown with a Flarm? I've flown about a thousand hours
with a Flarm in two different gliders.

I don't know anyone that stares at their flarm in gaggles. I, as I believe the
others do, glance at it when I lose track of the guy behind me or below me, and
those are gliders I've never been good following with my eyes - they are generally
out of sight!

In fact, I never stare at it, even when the nearest glider is miles away. It only
takes a glance to see what I want to see, and my device alerts me to potential
collisions by voice. Before I had voice, I had to glance at the screen on top of
the glare shield for the threat location - but no staring!

Remember, the device was developed because pilots became convinced we were NOT
doing a good job of locating collision threats.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[uneekc...@gmail.com]

Lets see.... coming up on 7,000 hours all med and low level flying, ....6 years with flarm or adsb equipment, I don’t think you will find I am low time lol.

As for “staring at your flarm”, thats an expression, read the whole context, the point is dependance upon instrumentation vs proper airmanship. Name every one glider midair that has occurred in level cruising flight and I will give you 8 that occured in gaggles. Flarm is useless there, its your eyes and situational awareness that give you the best chance of staying alive. Do I use collision avoidance technology? Yes, do I depend on it? No. I think I will live longer, my flight hours without serious incident are proving it. I hope you have the same track record now and in the future.

[Ramy]

Glad to know you using flarm for 6 years. I was under the impression you are not based on your post. Also without signing names (I always sign) we don’t know who we correspond with. Apparently we have similar experience: 8000 hours soaring here (all cross country, not contest) , close to 3000 with flarm and ads-b with a lot of traffic from both, and I wouldn’t want to fly without it, just as I wouldn’t want to fly without chute. Since it is only effective if the majority of us are using it, I wouldn’t post any negative comment about it. I am pretty sure that no one is looking down in their panel when in gaggle.
As for the ratio of midair’s in gaggle vs non gaggle, I didn’t do an in depth analysis, but my recollection is more than 50% of the fatal one were not in gaggle. The ones in gaggle tend to be more survivable due to lower impact energy (such as exchanging paint).

Ramy

[John Foster]

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 6:19:44 PM UTC-7, uneekc...@gmail.com wrote:
> Lets see.... coming up on 7,000 hours all med and low level flying, ....6 years with flarm or adsb equipment, I don’t think you will find I am low time lol.
>
> As for “staring at your flarm”, thats an expression, read the whole context, the point is dependance upon instrumentation vs proper airmanship. Name every one glider midair that has occurred in level cruising flight and I will give you 8 that occured in gaggles. Flarm is useless there, its your eyes and situational awareness that give you the best chance of staying alive. Do I use collision avoidance technology? Yes, do I depend on it? No. I think I will live longer, my flight hours without serious incident are proving it. I hope you have the same track record now and in the future.

I'm not an experienced glider pilot, but from what I've gathered, Flarm is not something you "depend" on to avoid mid-air collisions. It is something that "augments" your situational awareness. This, and any other collision avoidance system is a good thing.

[Eric Greenwell]

uneekc...@gmail.com wrote on 3/4/2020 5:19 PM:
> Lets see.... coming up on 7,000 hours all med and low level flying, ....6 years with flarm or adsb equipment, I don’t think you will find I am low time lol.
>
> As for “staring at your flarm”, thats an expression, read the whole context, the point is dependance upon instrumentation vs proper airmanship. Name every one glider midair that has occurred in level cruising flight and I will give you 8 that occured in gaggles. Flarm is useless there, its your eyes and situational awareness that give you the best chance of staying alive. Do I use collision avoidance technology? Yes, do I depend on it? No. I think I will live longer, my flight hours without serious incident are proving it. I hope you have the same track record now and in the future.
>

I've used Flarm in many gaggles. It does not seem useless to me. Perhaps it
depends to some extent on the gliders in the gaggle; eg, all 1-26s flying tightly
and slowly might cause more unnecessary warnings than a bunch of open class gliders.

[Steve Thompson]

I've had a Flarm since 2005 and I think it helps, though I regret that it
it is
proprietary device rather than ICAO. Why did I buy it, and the 4 later ones
as it
developed?

Mainly :- recognition of the fact that while pilots may well look out
perfectly, and
see lots of traffic - this traffic is normally not what will hit you. The
risk traffic is
stationary in the view you have. Seeing the other stuff may make you feel
good, however.

that's pretty well it. But flying with a French instructor in the Alps
further
convinced me. He had sharp eyes, pointed out mushrooms on mountaintops
while circling above them (literally). But remarked Flarm picked up twice
as
much as he did.

At 04:42 05 March 2020, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>uneekc...@gmail.com wrote on 3/4/2020 5:19 PM:
>> Lets see.... coming up on 7,000 hours all med and low level flying,

..=
>=2E6 years with flarm or adsb equipment, I don=E2=80=99t think you will
f=

>ind I am low time lol.

>>=20
>> As for =E2=80=9Cstaring at your flarm=E2=80=9D, thats an expression,
re=

>ad the whole context, the point is dependance upon instrumentation vs

pro=

>per airmanship. Name every one glider midair that has occurred in level

c=

>ruising flight and I will give you 8 that occured in gaggles. Flarm is

us=

>eless there, its your eyes and situational awareness that give you the

be=

>st chance of staying alive. Do I use collision avoidance technology?

Yes,=

> do I depend on it? No. I think I will live longer, my flight hours

witho=

>ut serious incident are proving it. I hope you have the same track

record=

> now and in the future.

>>=20

>I've used Flarm in many gaggles. It does not seem useless to me. Perhaps

=
>it=20

>depends to some extent on the gliders in the gaggle; eg, all 1-26s

flying=
> tightly=20

>and slowly might cause more unnecessary warnings than a bunch of open

cla=
>ss gliders.
>
>--=20

>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to

email=

> me)
>- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>

https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-th=
>e-guide-1
>
>

[krasw]

Never mind, it's always the same. They invented GPS. "Everyone is staring at their GPS now, old times were safer with thumb on the map and compass (yeah right)". Then came moving maps. "Everyone is staring at their map display now, old times were safer with just GPS". Flarm: "Everyone is staring at their Flarm now, old times were safer with just GPS and moving map". And so on, it just doesn't stop.

[uneekc...@gmail.com]

Yep Krasn, it never will.

Somehow the old guys kept themselves alive and grew old in aviation, I wonder how they did that? Must have just been lots of luck over the years, yep, thats what it was, they were/are just lucky guys. Not much airmanship involved, not much acquired and applied knowledge borrowed from past mistakes, their own and others. Knowledge that became ingrained into permanent memory, and habit and applied into proper muscle response. No that wasn’t it, they were just lucky. Boy were they lucky guys!

No, some will say, luck is only one factor keeping those old guys alive. But nowadays, it must be all the new technology, The new magic box. Thats what does it. Its the new “boxes”. Wow, we went from paper maps to gps to flarm, thats what kept them alive and keeps us alive. Remember many say we must remove as much brain action from the equation as we can, cause we all know the brain is flawed and most all accidents are pilot error in the end, so lets remove the brain and active experience based decision making from the list of variables. Thats the solution. Lets let the box do all the thinking for us.

Whats next? What will make us ultimately safer? Oh I know, lets go for automation! Man do we need a sailplane autopilot, tied into all our new instrumentation, and coupled with ATC. Sit back boys, the bird will fly herself, avoid traffic, navigate, find your thermal for you, tell you what speed to cruise at, beep at you when someone is near, recalculate the fastest route, give you live wx, live map, live “traffic”, and tell you where to go. Oh wait! We have all of that already. Only thing missing is the servo to move the stick n rudders.

Whats next to keep us all safer, oh I know, lets motorize all our sailplanes, that way we never have to land out, never get in a bind, never have to think about where to put her down until we’re right on the deck. That motor is our salvation. Never have to learn how or if we can shoehorn our bird into a dinky field. Never actually practice it in real life. Heck, I got hundreds of thousands of bucks in this bird, I don’t want to risk a scratch practicing super low energy landings and max braking! Yeh that will definitely make us all safer.

Oh and I know something even better! We can fly contests where you even get to use your engine part of the time on the task. Wow, aren’t we really “soaring” now! I just can’t wait!

Hey I know, lets just all go on-line and fly our tasks on the computer, gee wiz, our next Nationals and Worlds can be right here, in the comfort of home racing against the “best” in the world sipping a cup of coffee. No outlanding worries, collision worries, fatigue worries, just simulation. YES, theres the answer! Lets all arrive at ultimate safety!

Oh wait, how did that heart attack slip up on you yesterday? The doctors said it was due to your poor diet and lack of excercise from your many hours of sim-glider flying.

I guess we forgot to build a magic box to take care of that particular factor. Somebody better get on that right away. We sure need to stay ahead of the curve on this safety thing.

[Nick Kennedy]

The statement that Flarm is worthless in gaggles 100% incorrect in my experience. When circling with others in a controlled fashion my flarm is quiet. BUT when a conflict arises it lets me know, real quick.

Anyone who thinks those Flarm developers are getting rich off developing and selling Flarm needs to rethink that, the market is tiny.
The mid air problem is serious, and is often times fatal, that's why Flarm was developed.

I applaud those guys! Flarm works great and in the big scheme of things its not very expensive.
To anybody on the fence about buying a Flarm Unit: Just do it! Its a proven technology for many years now and you will surprised on how much traffic is out there you never see, even while looking hard for it. If you don't like it you can always sell it.
Nick
T

[markm...@gmail.com]

My hangar partner, airshow pilot Bob Carlton is fond of saying, "The most important piece of glass in a glass cockpit is above the glareshield."

However, Flarm is as valuable to me as the altimeter. Both tell me whether something solid (rock, aluminum or plastic) might ruin my day.

[Tango Whisky]

I've lost 4 friends in midairs before the introduction of Flarm.

Maybe you should come flying in the Alps or the Jura mountains on a pristine day to experience real glider traffic, and understand how many of these gliders you'd miss to see without Flarm. The last 2000 h flight time since I've installed Flarm back in 2005 has made me understand why these 4 friends did die.

[Eric Greenwell]

uneekc...@gmail.com wrote on 3/5/2020 3:53 AM:
> Yep Krasn, it never will.
>
> Somehow the old guys kept themselves alive and grew old in aviation, I wonder how they did that? Must have just been lots of luck over the years, yep, thats what it was, they were/are just lucky guys. Not much airmanship involved, not much acquired and applied knowledge borrowed from past mistakes, their own and others. Knowledge that became ingrained into permanent memory, and habit and applied into proper muscle response. No that wasn’t it, they were just lucky. Boy were they lucky guys!

.
.
.

> Hey I know, lets just all go on-line and fly our tasks on the computer, gee wiz, our next Nationals and Worlds can be right here, in the comfort of home racing against the “best” in the world sipping a cup of coffee. No outlanding worries, collision worries, fatigue worries, just simulation. YES, theres the answer! Lets all arrive at ultimate safety!
>
> Oh wait, how did that heart attack slip up on you yesterday? The doctors said it was due to your poor diet and lack of excercise from your many hours of sim-glider flying.
>
> I guess we forgot to build a magic box to take care of that particular factor. Somebody better get on that right away. We sure need to stay ahead of the curve on this safety thing.

You seem to be arguing the having Flarm makes the collision risk higher, so you
don't want anyone to use it. The users are telling you that you are wrong about
that. Nothing you've said about the old days seems persuasive, and yes, I was
flying in the 70's in contests and recreationally with maps, rulers, and plastic
prayer wheels. My head was in the cockpit a lot more than it is now, where a
glance at the moving map tells me more, and more accurately, than the maps, et al,
ever did.

But, if you don't think Flarm makes collision risk higher, then why do you care
about other pilots using it?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)

- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[uneekc...@gmail.com]

Hi Eric

No you’ve got me wrong on this one. I am definitely not arguing against flarm, or any other device intended to help awareness. I use them all myself. I am simply making a plea for folks to not depend on these devices, and to not only use, but perfect age old skills of airmanship.

We continue to trend down the road of modernization, that all well and fine, but it is ocuring at the expense of the most dependable and infinitely powerful tool we have, namely, our base of mental aeronautical knowledge and acquired skill.

I bring this perspective up quite frequently because I experience the degradation of these skills first hand daily in encounters with new cfi’s we are training for power line patrol work, and in mentoring guys who are getting into crop dusting and starting in xc soaring, as well as experiencing instances of this in some of the experienced soaring pilots I fly with.

Its not an either-or situation regarding adopting new technology and airmanship skills, but it should be a both-and situation. Problem is, most folks spend the majority of their time depending on the gadgets while not working at perfecting their airmanship.

My diatribe is a satirical attempt at showing the logical end results of the former perspective. The problem is, that satire is dang close to the truth of where we are heading in our sport.

Dan

[doug...@gmail.com]

I'm flying a Phoenix motor glider out of a towered airport near San Diego. It's not unusual to have 9 aircraft talking to the tower for landing instructions. ADS-B is needed, as we are in a mode C airspace and for safety. I've had a Flarm setup but it doesn't show both 1090 and 978 that are both used here. I've added a Sentry ADS-B receiver and an Ipad with Foreflight software so I can see all the ADS-B traffic. It is a real eye-opener to see what all is going on.
When I get to the mountains for soaring I can see the Flarm signals on one display and if they have ADS-B out I can see them on the Ipad also.
If you are counting on Flarm only realize most power traffic is not going to see you without looking out the canopy. They have not even heard of Flarm. I suggest you get ADS-B out.
I know Flarm is better in close thermaling situations but does not put out a signal to power traffic that does not have Flarm.
I hope someone can make a Flarm type device that works on the ADS-B frequencies. By all means, spend as much time as possible looking out through the canopy.

[Eric Greenwell]

This reply is easier to understand than the satire, because I don't know you well
enough to be sure I'm reading "satire" or maybe "grumpy old guy". We appear to be
addressing different subjects: I'm talking about the value of Flarm, you are
discussing your concerns about the change in soaring and it's pilots due to
technology.

[uneekc...@gmail.com]

Eric thanks for the reply. In my mind they are both somewhat related. Safety and the changes in soaring, soaring practice and competition go hand in hand. Also sometimes the introduction of new technology has unintended consequences as we see being discussed in some of the other recent threads concerning the use of tec and cheating.
Dan

[moshe....@gmail.com]

On Friday, March 6, 2020 at 9:59:00 AM UTC-5, uneekc...@gmail.com wrote:
> Eric thanks for the reply. In my mind they are both somewhat related. Safety and the changes in soaring, soaring practice and competition go hand in hand. Also sometimes the introduction of new technology has unintended consequences as we see being discussed in some of the other recent threads concerning the use of tec and cheating.
> Dan

I've been wondering how to teach the new XC pilots in our club relevant but mostly-lost skills such as pilotage and map reading, since they start right out with moving-map glide computers. I've resorted to, at least, generating some discussion about ways in which the computer can be wrong (or set up incorrectly, or misinterpreted), and how to sanity-check what you think the computer is telling you. Of course, that sanity-checking requires some independently acquired information, such as looking out the window at the ground.

[cdeerinck]

Give them a sectional, and take away their battery, and send them on their way. Try doing it periodically. It's valuable and sometimes humbling.

[Brian]

Have them fill out a old school navigation log. Jeppesen ones work well. One might argue we don't use navigation logs any more, but we use and should know all the components to make one. Things like Time and Distance, True vs magnetic headings, Wind Correction Angles. They can try to fill one out using their computer, but they will quickly figure out it is easier to do it manually after doing a few.

This is a common failure point on checkrides now, in that applicants don't understand these basic concept or what exactly their computer is really telling them. A recent example I am aware of is an applicant trying to figure out the True course using his computer.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

[JS]

All:
Sorry I updated this thread to have it go down the toilet like so many others.
Jim