Book of all gliders?
Cubird
purchase a ship some time in the future. One thing I really would like
to get my hands on is a book that combines the respective dossiers and
genealogies of the world's gliders - basically, a "Janes" of gliders. I
learned a lot at Dick Johnson's lecture at the '94 SSA convention but
would like to know more. The SSA mentioned that an upcoming Soaring
issue will be done similar to the '83 issue that had a stats on several
ships. If anyone could post some info on this subject, it would be much
appreciated. BTW, one immediate question I have is the difference
between a Grob Club 102, Astir CS, Speed Astir - the "two" Grob companies,
history etc....
-John Crawford
Günther Seemann
>appreciated. BTW, one immediate question I have is the difference
>between a Grob Club 102, Astir CS, Speed Astir - the "two" Grob companies,
>history etc....
may be I can help a little.
Astir cs : first sailplane built by Grob. It was thought as a competitor to
the Standard Cirrus. The performance is in the same range (1:37,5).
Don't worry to fly against Std. Cirrus or LS-1f. I managed to beat
them often.
Club 102 : Is an Astir cs follow-on. Club means: no water ballast, no
retractable gear. Performance not as good as the Astir cs.
Speed-Astir : Grob's contribution to meet the FAI-15m-class. Cockpit with 2
part canopy like the DG 100. Ailerons and flaps with
"Elastic-Flap". That means there is no broken upper surface (!).
Therefore a complicated mechanism is neccessary. This was
adopted by Schempp-Hirth (Holighaus) for a short period of time.
Performance: 1:40. Good on high speed. Nice to handle. For me
the best cockpit-seat I know of (compared to: Discus, Ventus,
LS 4, LS 6, LS 7, SZD-55, Club-Libelle and several wooden ships).
My greatest distance: 500 km triangle in less than 7hrs.
I know of the Speed-Astir IIb, which is offerd somtimes in the
adds. Price in Germany: complete with trailer, radio,
electronic-variometer about 30k DM (Much plane for the money).
Disadvantage: very heavy (270-280 kg empty).
Grob didn't had a success with the Speed because of lack of performace to
Mini-Nimbus and LS 3.
The history of Grob as I know it: Burkhard Grob, one son of the "Grob
Maschinenbau" company holder, is a sailplane pilot and a friend of Klaus
Holighaus. In the early 70s Burkhard founded the "Grob Flugzeugbau GmbH" and
manunfactured the Standard Cirrus in license. In 1975 Grob began manufacturing
an own design, the Astir cs. The Astir cs sold well because of a low price.
There are several follow-on's. In the late 70s Grob was the first who
manufactured a glass-double-seater with retractable gear (Twin-Astir). There
were also several follow-on's and variants. Today the Twin III SL (Self
Launching) is still in production.
While growing Grob designed a motorglider, the G 109, which became a success.
Then Grob designed an airplane, the G 115, in different variants (not such a
success). Today Grob is also involved in airspace research projects.
That's from memory. I hope this is useful for you.
- Guenther
Michael C. Steckner
and motorgliders book. Then there are a couple of Soaring mags
which do the same thing (which has already been mentioned)
Then OSTIV *many* years ago produced a similar sort of book.
Then there are a couple of books in German which do the same
thing. I think they were produced by the Motor (something or
other) press. There were also two small books produced in German
which presented three view diagrams of many of the worlds gliders.
I think the vintage on that is late 70s. Then there are also
several (two?) OSTIV conferences where they produced many
polars and small three views of many gliders. One neat feature
about that series of articles is that they overlay polars of
similar gliders on the same graph so you can compare. There also was
an exhaustive flight handling performance review (early 70s?)
in OSTIV which compared about 6 (?) gliders. Cirrus, K6, and
a few others. THen there is the infamous Bickle "polar of ten"
series of articles. Another book, by Ellis in England
which describes all the British gliders. Dick Johnson over the
years has flight tested many gliders in Soaring, with 3 views
and polars and detailed commentary.
If you are interested in personal opinions of gliders to
buy for your first time George Moffats "Winning on the wind"
has many candid comments on an older breed of glider. He
updated that (many years ago) in Soaring Mag with a couple
of articles. Then there is Piggotts Flying Safely book which
devotes a chapter to gliders that first time buyers, low
time pilots might wish to consider. Periodically various
people have given pilot reports on various gliders in
Soaring and the other soaring mags.
Ancilliary to the topic, but important, is what to look for
in a used glider. Aland Adams, another netter, published
an excellent article in Soaring several years ago and
put a copy out on the net. Aland, time to dust that article
off again for redistribution? It may also reside in Guy
Ford Byars excellent SSA BBS.
On the historical note, there was a book produced about 5
years ago by Kookabura press (?) in Australia on the worlds
vintage gliders.
If you just want pretty pictures of gliders with three views
the German soaring Calendar offers fantastic huge glider
pictures with three views on the back and a couple of
paragraphs on the picture and technical numbers on the
glider.
On other words, there is *tons* of stuff out there!
Michael
Albion H. Bowers
In a previous article, S...@WZL-MTQ1.WZL.RWTH-AACHEN.DE (Günther Seemann) says:
[request for a directory of sailplanes deleted]
This is primarily of interest to USA readers, but some other countries
might be able to get access to some of them:
Soaring magazine, March 1970 (domestic sailplanes)
Soaring magazine, April 1970 (foreign sailplanes)
Soaring magazine, August 1974 (world directory)
Soaring magazine, August 1978 (supplement to the world directory)
Soaring magazine, November 1983 (world directory)
I was disappointed with Jane's All the World's Aircraft for deleting their
sailplane section last year. I understand they will not publish a
sailplane section any longer.
Also, someone mentioned the Dick Johnson flight tests. I started trying to
make a master index of all of Johnson's articles in this vein. I also did
so for Paul Bikle's pieces. I have completed up through 1983, I think. If
you know of one I am missing, please notify me.
SAILPLANE PERFORMANCE ARTICLES
Soaring magazine, published by Soaring Society of America
Issue Author Title
11-69 Bikle Eyeball Aerodynamics
6-70 Bikle Polars of Eight
7-70 Bikle Gear Up, Sun Up
8-70 Bikle Description, T-6 Sailplane
10-70 Bikle T-6 Performance
11-70 Bikle AS-W 12 & Libelle H301B Performance Tests
1-71 Bikle Airspeed Calibration
2-71 Bikle Flight Test Performance Summary
6-71 Bikle Polars of Eight
3-76 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Standard Cirrus B
4-76 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Nimbus II
6-76 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the AS-W 17
9-76 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the PIK-20
10-76 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Glasflugel 604
1-77 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Schweizer 1-35
2-77 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Schweizer 1-26E
4-77 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Jantar 1 and 2A
8-77 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the AS-W 19
9-77 Johnson Facts About Flaps
11-77 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Glasflugel 604 Modifications
12-77 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Mini-Nimbus
5-78 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the AS-W 20
7-78 Johnson A Further PIK-20B Flight Test Evaluation
11-78 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the LS-3
1-79 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the PIK-20D-78
3-79 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Schempp-Hirth Janus
7-79 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Standard Jantars 1 and 2
9-79 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Zuni
2-80 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the LS-3A
3-80 Johnson Performance Improvement Through Airfoil Shape Correction
6-80 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the LS-3/17
7-80 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the DG-200
8-80 Johnson Performance Improvement Through Airfoil Shape Correction, II
2-81 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Slingsby Vega
7-81 Johnson Performance Improvement Through Airfoil Shape Correction, III
12-81 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Ventus A
3-82 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Schweizer 1-36
6-82 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Ventus B
12-82 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Nimbus 3
2-83 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the Grob 103 Twin II
4-83 Johnson A Flight Test Evaluation of the AS-W 22
10-83 Johnson At last: an instrument that reads drag!
>There are several follow-on's. In the late 70s Grob was the first who
>manufactured a glass-double-seater with retractable gear (Twin-Astir). There
>were also several follow-on's and variants. Today the Twin III SL (Self
>Launching) is still in production.
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Klaus Holighaus introduce the Janus
fiberglass two-seat sailplane in 1974? I thought the Janus was the first.
Which brings me to another question I had been meaning to ask. didn't it
strike anyone else funny that the Janus series was:
Janus (A)
Janus B
Janus C
But then when the Nimbus 3 wings were grafted onto the Janus fuselage it
became the:
Nimbus 3D
but there was never a Nimbus 3B, or Nimbus 3C? And now the Janus fuselage
is grafted onto another set of wings and called the:
Duo Discus
I hope everyone doesn't mind if I call them all Janus A through E. :-)
Now watch, Tom Knauff will flame me for my ignorance of the subject...
--
Al Bowers DOD #900 NASA Dryden Flight Research Center
work: bow...@tifosi.dfrf.nasa.gov personal: ak...@yfn.ysu.edu
"...tactics always degrade strategy..." -Frank Bethwaite
John Orton
>From: S...@WZL-MTQ1.WZL.RWTH-AACHEN.DE (Günther Seemann)
>Subject: Re: Book of all gliders?
>Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 13:09:06
>Astir cs : first sailplane built by Grob. It was thought as a competitor to
> the Standard Cirrus. The performance is in the same range (1:37,5).
Thankyou for these comments an exellent summarry. However did not Grob build
some Cirrus under license before designing the Astir.
Günther Seemann
>>Astir cs : first sailplane built by Grob. It was thought as a competitor to
>> the Standard Cirrus. The performance is in the same range (1:37,5).
>Thankyou for these comments an exellent summarry. However did not Grob build
>some Cirrus under license before designing the Astir.
Yes, Grob did. I thought I mentioned it in this post. Sorry if not.
- Guenther
Paul Jessop
means "Doppelsitzplatz" or somesuch in German, rather than a successor to
the Nimus 3B and 3C.
I don't think the 3D ever had a Janus fuselage, though it did go through
some iterations in the early days (tailplane/rudder size I recall).
However, the current Janus does have a 3D fuselage, as does the
Duo-Discus.
Paul (Bicester, UK)
Hans Trautenberg t2466
The D in Nimbus 3D is for Double-seater
--
================================================================================
Hans Trautenberg Universitaet Regensburg
Institut fuer Angewandte Physik III
phone (49) 941 943 2466 Polymerphysik
fax (49) 941 943 3196 D-93040 Regensburg
e-mail hans.tra...@physik.uni-regensburg.de Germany
================================================================================
Albion H. Bowers
In a previous article, pje...@tdc.dircon.co.uk (Paul Jessop) says:
>As a Janus C (part) owner I ought to be more sure but I think the Nimbus 3D
>means "Doppelsitzplatz" or somesuch in German, rather than a successor to
>the Nimus 3B and 3C.
I can find no official mention of a Nimbus 3B or a Nimbus 3C. in that
case, a Nimbus 3A is a bit redundant (sort of the like the original Janus
didn't have an "A" until the advent of the "B" and the "C"). No?
>I don't think the 3D ever had a Janus fuselage, though it did go through
>some iterations in the early days (tailplane/rudder size I recall).
>However, the current Janus does have a 3D fuselage, as does the
>Duo-Discus.
I've never performed a detailed examination of each model side by side.
But upon casual examination, and a bit of thought (perhaps quite erroneous)
I concluded that the same fuselage was used for the Janus, the Nimbus 3D
and the Duo Discus. I cemented that conclusion (bias, or error) when I
read in Jane's All the World's Aircraft that the Nimbus 3D was as follows:
"It combines a modified Janus fuselage with the long span wings of the
Nimbus 3/24.5 wing," etc. Jane's goes on about the mods to the center
section to accept the Nimbus wings, and with the longer wings it makes
sense that a larger vertical would be required for directional stability.
But it wouldn't be the last time I drew an incorrect conclusion from
Jane's...
Al Bowers
Paul Jessop
stuff deleted
>I can find no official mention of a Nimbus 3B or a Nimbus 3C. in that
>case, a Nimbus 3A is a bit redundant (sort of the like the original Janus
>didn't have an "A" until the advent of the "B" and the "C"). No?
Sorry if I've confused anyone. I meant just this. There was no 3B or 3C
to my knowledge. 3D refers to te German, not a sequence.
>>I don't think the 3D ever had a Janus fuselage, though it did go
through
>>some iterations in the early days (tailplane/rudder size I recall).
>>However, the current Janus does have a 3D fuselage, as does the
>>Duo-Discus.
>
>I've never performed a detailed examination of each model side by side.
>But upon casual examination, and a bit of thought (perhaps quite erroneous)
>I concluded that the same fuselage was used for the Janus, the Nimbus 3D
>and the Duo Discus. I cemented that conclusion (bias, or error) when I
>read in Jane's All the World's Aircraft that the Nimbus 3D was as follows:
>"It combines a modified Janus fuselage with the long span wings of the
>Nimbus 3/24.5 wing," etc. Jane's goes on about the mods to the center
>section to accept the Nimbus wings, and with the longer wings it makes
>sense that a larger vertical would be required for directional stability.
I've checked with my elders and betters and the strongest assertion I'm
currently prepared to own is "fuselages from various Schemp Hirth two
seaters are not interchangeable"! I believe the current Janus and Duo
Discus have a different fus from the Janus C but it is not exactly the
same as a 3D.