The looming towplane problem in the USA...

[Tony]

One issue is insurance. I'm not knowledgeable enough to propose a specific remedy, but could the SSA endowment be used, in part, for some blanket policy that would cover owner/operators of tugs? During contests only?

I know the Pawnee has been a godsend, as the single seat cut insurance vs. L-19's, 182's &c. But they're aging and the outfit that holds the TC is of no assistance.

Another remedy might be getting to the bottom of the FAA's boilerplate restriction against aircraft with an experimental a/w cert being used for tows. I know it has not always been applied, but can we get a path towards eliminating it and get experimental aircraft designed purely as tugs...perhaps when passengers are not carried in either aircraft?

[Mark Mocho]

One of the biggest obstacles to any recertification or policy change is the nearly impossible task of convincing the FAA that any "new" rule will enhance "safety." The FAA uses "safety" as the filter through which all decisions are made. Unfortunately, there seems to be a faction in the bureaucracy that has in the back of their mind that flight would be "safer" by simply reducing the amount of flying that actually takes place.

One (retired) FAA official told me that the FAA is like a supertanker- hard to get moving, difficult and slow to make a course change, and once moving, difficult to stop. That's why it took nine years and the threat of Congressional investigation to resolve a simple erroneous interpretation of the Centrair Pegase life limit. And the "fix" was just a "work-around" that avoided making a definitive decision to rescind the AD that caused the problem, even though the FAA had violated its own policy, the Federal Administrative Procedures Act and "common sense." But rescinding the AD would mean that the FAA would be acknowledging that it had made a mistake in the first place.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Nice topic, I have owned three Pawnee's and really liked the all, my current Pawnee is a beast and is our primary tow plane. If you find one grab it up and do everything you can to keep it in excellent condition. Not only are they getting hard to find the prices are crazy and finding someone with experience to fly it is another challenge. The self launch owners are saying goodbye to all towplanes, they may just be ahead of the game. OBTP

[waltco...@aol.com]

I was lucky enough to cut my teeth on tail draggers, cubs, champs, pacers, T Craft, 120s and 140s at a little grass field in Inverness, Fl. I hadn't flown power in 37 years when I was asked if I would fly tow at SLGP. I went and flew a cub a couple of hours and it was like riding a bike, you never forget. To get some experience with higher horsepower I flew the Stearman for 5 hours and had a ball. Then I did some acro in a Pitts and upset training in a Zlin and felt I was good to go, upset training is invaluable. The Pawnee is really the easiest taildragger you can fly. Just make sure the release handle is up where the pilot can grab it and that it has a TOST system.

Walt

[stephen.s...@gmail.com]

We’ve become addicted to horsepower. Pawnees guzzle gas and have two extra cylinders to replace. The extra ponies largely just make the pig fly. Most don’t remember that the first Pawnees only had 150hp but a lighter airframe! Up to now the clubs I have been at have gotten by with 150hp Super Cubs and Citabrias, but we just recently upgraded to a newish 180hp High Country Explorer (Citabria) and pit a TOST system release on it. It is an excellent towplane, with all the power we could want (at least for us lowlanders) and is currently in production with good support.

[Ron Gleason]

Good topic. In the western states with density altitudes horse power is key. At contests it is getting very hard as the latest machine need lots of power to get off the ground but also newer airfoils on the tow planes to be able tow at 80+ knots for fully ballasted racing gliders

[Nicholas Kennedy]

On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 6:49:02 PM UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Wednesday, 29 June 2022 at 17:08:32 UTC-6, stephen.s...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 6:34:45 PM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, June 28, 2022 at 6:28:31 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, June 28, 2022 at 4:12:56 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > One issue is insurance. I'm not knowledgeable enough to propose a specific remedy, but could the SSA endowment be used, in part, for some blanket policy that would cover owner/operators of tugs? During contests only?
> > > > >
> > > > > I know the Pawnee has been a godsend, as the single seat cut insurance vs. L-19's, 182's &c. But they're aging and the outfit that holds the TC is of no assistance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Another remedy might be getting to the bottom of the FAA's boilerplate restriction against aircraft with an experimental a/w cert being used for tows. I know it has not always been applied, but can we get a path towards eliminating it and get experimental aircraft designed purely as tugs...perhaps when passengers are not carried in either aircraft?
> > > > Nice topic, I have owned three Pawnee's and really liked the all, my current Pawnee is a beast and is our primary tow plane. If you find one grab it up and do everything you can to keep it in excellent condition. Not only are they getting hard to find the prices are crazy and finding someone with experience to fly it is another challenge. The self launch owners are saying goodbye to all towplanes, they may just be ahead of the game. OBTP
> > > I was lucky enough to cut my teeth on tail draggers, cubs, champs, pacers, T Craft, 120s and 140s at a little grass field in Inverness, Fl. I hadn't flown power in 37 years when I was asked if I would fly tow at SLGP. I went and flew a cub a couple of hours and it was like riding a bike, you never forget. To get some experience with higher horsepower I flew the Stearman for 5 hours and had a ball. Then I did some acro in a Pitts and upset training in a Zlin and felt I was good to go, upset training is invaluable. The Pawnee is really the easiest taildragger you can fly. Just make sure the release handle is up where the pilot can grab it and that it has a TOST system.
> > >
> > > Walt

> >A good towplane readily available today is the early Cessna 182.
We used one here one summer in Telluride and it was fine. it had a extra oil cooler.
Nice thing about the C-182 is ANYBODY can fly it and with a 160 mph cruise and long legs it makes a good long distance XC airplane for trips to see mom.
Any Mechanic can work on these and parts are plentiful.
Nick
T

[Matthew Scutter]

> > We’ve become addicted to horsepower. Pawnees guzzle gas and have two extra cylinders to replace. The extra ponies largely just make the pig fly. Most don’t remember that the first Pawnees only had 150hp but a lighter airframe! Up to now the clubs I have been at have gotten by with 150hp Super Cubs and Citabrias, but we just recently upgraded to a newish 180hp High Country Explorer (Citabria) and pit a TOST system release on it. It is an excellent towplane, with all the power we could want (at least for us lowlanders) and is currently in production with good support.
> Good topic. In the western states with density altitudes horse power is key. At contests it is getting very hard as the latest machine need lots of power to get off the ground but also newer airfoils on the tow planes to be able tow at 80+ knots for fully ballasted racing gliders

I am dismayed at the monster tow plane cost-spiral I have seen a number of clubs enter. It goes something like this;

Extremely wealthy and keen club members buy new super heavy, high wingloading gliders with high speed aerofoils of which only very high power towplanes can safely tow.
The club is then locked into operating their legacy Pawnees of which maintenance and fuel costs are extremely high. Cheaper alternative tow planes are no longer an option lest these super heavies are unable to launch. The pilots of student / club sailplanes end up subsidizing this extravagant equipment. The student / club class pilots drift out of the sport in the face of looming 100$ aerotows for their 10,000$ Cirrus.

If there wasn't the requirement to cater for the super heavies, many clubs could be towing with ultralights running Rotax's at half the price (or less). They might even get a desirable ultralight to fly in its own right out of it. Some clubs try and manage this unfairness by charging heavies more or charging by time, but somehow the maths never quite works out for the clubbies.

I think our sport would have more longevity if our clubs would tell these pilots - if you're going to order a new quarter-million+ super heavy glider, fork out the extra 30k and get your own engine.

Perhaps the IGC could arrest this trend by imposing a 60kg/sqm 600kg weight limit on aerotow at world championships, or some kind of climb performance requirement - if you want to go heavier or faster, BYO engine/tug.

[Mark Mocho]

Matthew raises a good point about the horsepower required for towing a heavy "supership," but the JS1-C with 21 meter span, loaded with ballast to MTOW of 1,323 lbs. isn't much different to the rather pedestrian Grob 103 at 1,340 lbs. Since the basis for most clubs is an older two-place trainer like the G103, a high power towplane is needed anyway, especially in high elevation locations like Moriarty, which regularly sees 9,000+ ft. density altitude. We utilize 265 HP Pawnees, and there are times that the climb behind even these gas guzzlers is anemic. The fully tanked open class glider pilots can be heard squealing for more speed throughout the tow, providing entertainment to those monitoring the radio.

[Martin Gregorie]

A lot of UK clubs have replaced their 265 hp Pawnees with Robin DR-400
tugs. My club has two of them, which handle anything on our field.
Admittedly we're not high altitude (260 ft AMSL) but I've watched fully
ballasted JS-1Cs being launched by them from our field on calm competition
days.

Is the DR-400 available in the USA?


--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[George Haeh]

It takes approximately the same amount of gas/energy to lift a towplane/glider combination x thousand feet.

More power gets you up quicker for about the same amount of gas.

Pawnees are less constrained by engine cooling considerations and can come down quicker. The faster climb and descent can enable an operation to do more tows in a day.

In my neck of the woods, cylinder problems are more frequent with Scouts and C-182.

[Dan Marotta]

In a word: Winch.

Dan
5J

[Dan Marotta]

There is precisely one DR400 on the FAA Registry...

Dan
5J

[Martin Gregorie]

Thought that might be the case since I've not seen them mentioned on your
side of the pond.

[ASM]

On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 1:07:21 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> In a word: Winch.
>
> Dan
> 5J

Oh my man, you just hit the nail in the head. I think that a winch is the way to go.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Never saw a winch do a retrieve. OBTP
Yet I have decided that my next Pawnee project will be the " El Diablo", a great name in a line of Pawnee's . I had Dusty, then the Yellow Gorilla, my present one "Towpecker" and my plans for the final. An original PA25 150, completely restore and install a IO-390 and tweak the prop a bit. I think I will paint it hot red, do a DER approval on the configuration and see how the Diablo does. Probably a two year project, I have already been in touch with the DER and DAR things could be happening soon. OBTP

[Frank Whiteley]

None listed on the FAA Registry nor Type Certificate.

Frank Whiteley

[Frank Whiteley]

On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 2:12:01 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Dan,

I think there a model designation, but nothing registered under it.

FWIW, I think they are a nice and capable tow plane.

Frank Whiteley

[AS]

The DR400 is a very capable tow-plane. My old club operated one until they replaced it with a DA40. It was also liked by the power pilots in our club since it seated four and could be used for family outings. Ours had a four-bladed prop and a Gomolzig muffler in an effort to keep the neighbors happy.
The big draw-back is the wood and fabric construction, which requires some extra attention.

Uli
'AS'

[AS]

Plus one for the winch! May not be ideal for a water-logged ASH-25 but for training and the average 15/18m glider type, definitely.

Uli
'AS'

[Francois VG]

In France, one sometimes considers wood and fabric an advantage, as easy to repair…

[Matthew Scutter]

On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 12:34:10 AM UTC+10, Mark Mocho wrote:
> Matthew raises a good point about the horsepower required for towing a heavy "supership," but the JS1-C with 21 meter span, loaded with ballast to MTOW of 1,323 lbs. isn't much different to the rather pedestrian Grob 103 at 1,340 lbs. Since the basis for most clubs is an older two-place trainer like the G103, a high power towplane is needed anyway, especially in high elevation locations like Moriarty, which regularly sees 9,000+ ft. density altitude. We utilize 265 HP Pawnees, and there are times that the climb behind even these gas guzzlers is anemic. The fully tanked open class glider pilots can be heard squealing for more speed throughout the tow, providing entertainment to those monitoring the radio.

There is probably a 15kt difference in stall speed between a full G103 and a full 21m JS1-C, and with the history of the JS1-C I definitely would not be taking tows with an anaemic tug. Wingloading and aerofoil properties matter too. It's far from just a matter of weight.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

I often see comments regarding tow planes from non tow pilots, and the information is always interesting. I have towed with Super Cubs, Maules. Husky, C172, C180, Pawnee's from 150-265hp, AgWagon 300, and I say that there is no substitute for HP. Weight , HP, wing loading and design all play an important role. The DR would not be my choice for towing, would it work in a pinch, sure, but tow weight restrictions certainly would come into consideration.
Yes, I do pull a few heavy ships, they are not my favorite and I have imposed weight restrictions for certain aircraft. the JS-3 , full and bubbling over takes a healthy towplane to make for a comfortable and safe tow. Old Bob, The Purist

[John Galloway]

Very much agreed Matthew. I sold a JS1C because I couldn't safely launch it ballasted behind a 100hp Eurofox.

[waltco...@aol.com]

It would take a gun to my head and about five times what I was being paid to tow to get me to do it again but I can tell you from my perspective there is NO substitute for horsepower. Yes, not everyone can fly the Pawnee but the 182 isn't exactly cheap nor are super cubs and other suggested substitutes. The 182 with a constant speed prop and cowl flaps provides the pilot with a bit more work and thinking to do. You could easily see and feel the difference when you got out of a 260 horsepower tow plane and into a 235.

Walt

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

You are absolutely correct, there is NO substitute for HP during a tow, as mentioned earlier I could not imagine towing behind a 100 hp europuke! HP will save your life, in reference to the 182 , it makes a good towplane, but you better have cowl flaps. Walt, my days of towing are soon coming to an end, old age is creeping up and I would like to get back to flying my PURE glider, even considering a newer ship 18 meters. You can certainly bet that I will not be degrading my skills by going to some motorglider. If pinch comes to a shove Eileen can give ne a tow and I could do the same for her, kind of keep it in the family kind of thing. Old Bob, The Purist

[John Foster]

What are your thoughts on this option? Seems very anemic to me.

https://youtu.be/0Q7xIOvUY6k

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

I would not be comfortable in towing with such an anemic powered towplane! I see these sport craft planes at our strip most everyday, and there is no way that they can handle the extreme application needs of towing our gliders. Old Bob, The Purist

[waltco...@aol.com]

Aerospool WT9 Dynamic with fixed landing gear
Data from Bayerl, Tacke and Aerospool[2][3][6]
General characteristics
* Crew: one
* Capacity: one passenger
* Length: 6.40 m (21 ft 0 in)
* Wingspan: 9.00 m (29 ft 6 in)
* Height: 2 m (6 ft 7 in)
* Wing area: 10.35 m2 (111.4 sq ft)
* Empty weight: 264 kg (582 lb)
* Gross weight: 450 kg (992 lb)
* Fuel capacity: 75 litres (16 imp gal; 20 US gal) standard, 125 litres (27 imp gal; 33 US gal) optional
* Powerplant: 1 × Rotax 912ULS four cylinder, liquid and air-cooled, four stroke, 75 kW (101 hp)
Performance



PA-25-235 Pawnee C
Data from: Macdonald Aircraft Handbook [4]
General characteristics[edit]
* Crew: One
* Capacity: 150 US gal (568 L) or 1,500 lb (545 kg) of chemicals
* Length: 24 ft 9 in (7.55 m)
* Wingspan: 36 ft 2 in (11.02 m)
* Height: 7 ft 2 in (2.19 m)
* Wing area: 183 ft2 (17.0 m2)
* Empty: 1,457 lb (662 kg)
* Loaded: 2,900 lb (1,317 kg)
* Maximum takeoff: 2,900 lb (1,317 kg)
* Powerplant: 1 x Lycoming O-540-B2B5, 235 hp (175 kW)
*
At a glance without crunching numbers it would appear that the power to weight ratio is about the same when comparing the two aircraft. The improved aerodynamics of the Dynamic when compared to the Pawnee seems to be in favor of the Dynamic, I like the retractable tow cable system too. The question is cost, not just operationally but upfront purchase price. Depending on who is writing the checks, this might be an option or perhaps not. Considering I had to argue with someone about ordering a 100 dollar mixture cable, some people may not see the long range advantage of some of the newer aircraft. The advantage of having two seats which would allow for training of new tow pilots is a plus. I personally would always opt for the higher horsepower version. JMHO.

Walt

[Mark Mocho]

> * Powerplant: 1 × Rotax 912ULS four cylinder, liquid and air-cooled, four stroke, 75 kW (101 hp)

101 HP should be sufficient to tow a ballasted JS-1C 21 m from one end of the runway to the other. And back. But not into the air.

[Dan Marotta]

I don't think you'd want the hopper full while towing gliders (at least
I never did). Dropping that 1,500 lb skews the power to weight ratio in
favor of the Pawnee.

Dan
5J

[waltco...@aol.com]

I was looking at empty weight, 1500 to 600 approximately. Again, the price is and will be the determining factor going forward.
Walt

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 12:11:16 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

My Pawnee weighs in at 1134 pounds , HP 265, you do the math!!! Old Bob, The Purist

[Stuart Venters]

Doing the math:

Pawnee 1880/235 = 8.0
Aerospool 862/101 = 8.5 (better, but not significant)

But adding in the 1000 pound glider behind that it is trying to accelerate,
Pawnee 2880/235 = 12.3
Aerospool 1862/101 = 18 (Significantly less)

[Stéphane Vander Veken]

I have been towed by a Dynamic at Saint-Auban (France) and by a Super Dimona motorglider in Germany, both with a Rotax 115 hp IIRC. It is a non-event, IF you've got a concrete runway. On grass, it will entirely depend on the quality of the surface. The problem is only on the ground: you have to get the tow moving and accelerating, and you need enough HP for that. Once airborne, the aerodynamic quality of the Dynamic or motorglider compared to a classic tug is such, that the available horspower for climbing (after substracting the HP needed to overcome aerodynamic drag) is roughly comparable. You get roughly the same vertical speed. The French did have a prototype with an airframe similar to the Dynamic, but with a 180 hp engine. It was an ideal tug, but didn't go into production.

[Tony]

Bikle's altitude record was set with a tow out of KWJF to 10,000' behind an 85hp Luscombe.

[Matthew Scutter]

The newer Dynamic's have 914 or 915 engines with up to 141hp. They're highly aerodynamic, especially the retracts.
I did see a video of a 912 Dynamic with 100hp towed the 900kg 31m eta out of Prievidza once upon a time, but as I recall a lot of people had to push to get it rolling. As per the point I made earlier though - I don't think we should be hanging onto tugs like the Pawnee just so we can tow the odd super heavy, when something with lower operating costs could cater to 90% of the fleet.

[waltco...@aol.com]

The 141 hp engine with an airframe of such improved aerodynamics should work quite well. I believe they can also be turbocharged? Again though, it will be a cost consideration and all too often people see a short term vs long term view.

Walt

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

I knew Paul, spoke with him many times about that flight, I can assure you that he would have been happier with a 236-265 Pawnee. I was once towed with a 65 hp J-3 finally got me to where I could release and go, but it did work. I guess Burt Compton still remembers towing off his dad's field with a J-3. Old Bob, The Purist

[Dan Marotta]

The Rotax 915 iS is electronically fuel injected and turbocharged. It
develops 141 hp. I have one installed in my home built gyro plane.
Great engine!

Dan
5J

[stephen.s...@gmail.com]

My old club used to tow with a Tiger Moth!

[kirk.stant]

As much as I love towing in the Pawnee (and in 180 Super Cubs - 172s, not so much), I think the future will be a winch (preferably electric) + FES (or equivalent). Gets rid of the noise problem, of the need for expensive aircraft maintenance and parts for the tow plane, eliminates need for aviation fuel, no more cranky tow pilots, and no more landing out in a carbon fiber toy that costs more than most peoples' house. Well, most of the time...

Or, everybody just stays home and flies any glider anywhere they want in MSFS with a VR headset...

Kirk
66

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

And the cause for one being a cranky tow pilot???

[Mark Mocho]

> And the cause for one being a cranky tow pilot???

I don't think there is a "cause." I think it's one of the requirements for the rating. :-)

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, July 5, 2022 at 9:05:43 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
> > And the cause for one being a cranky tow pilot???
> I don't think there is a "cause." I think it's one of the requirements for the rating. :-)

Cause and effect!
Cause, glider pilot not ready at the flight line, glider pilot has no idea how to safely stay behind the tow plane, glider pilot giving towing instructions over the radio, glider pilot tinkering with instruments while on tow, glider pilot screwing with GoPro on tow, glider pilot texting while on tow, glider pilot cannot simply pull the release at the signaled time, shall I say more?
Effect, causes the tow pilot to become grumpy, tired of the stupidity, has much better things to do on a 97degree day with 90% humidity sitting in a hot Pawnee, waiting for the next clown.

[Mark Mocho]

Yes, those are valid reasons to be cranky, but do we want nice, laid-back tow pilots who will let this behavior continue? Or do we need crotchety, old SOBs who will attempt to stamp out shaky performance from the pilot on the end of the trolling line?

[John Foster]

On Tuesday, July 5, 2022 at 8:41:03 AM UTC-6, Mark Mocho wrote:
> Yes, those are valid reasons to be cranky, but do we want nice, laid-back tow pilots who will let this behavior continue? Or do we need crotchety, old SOBs who will attempt to stamp out shaky performance from the pilot on the end of the trolling line?

I agree that winching needs to be the future. The other issue of concern I have about the Dynamic is that typically (correct me if I'm wrong), most European glider ports are at lower altitudes. St. Auban is only at 1,500 ft (less than 500m) AGL, so density altitudes in the heat of summer are "moderate". In the western US/Rocky Mountains, many airfields are above 5,000ft (1,500m) with density altitudes sometimes in excess of 10,000 ft (3,000 m). This is where, I believe, horsepower becomes essential.

[Frank Whiteley]

5500MSL with density altitudes above 9000ft frequently at our location. Winch still works, but a few knots of headwind always helps. So would more power.

Had a chat with Bruno about a few things he experienced on his recent winch soarfari. He said the winch was decidedly lacking in power at Creede, CO, 8680MSL. Not sure what the density altitude might have been that day but certinly over 10000. IIRC, he mentioned a slight tailwind which could have been worse one or two spans above the runway.

Frank Whiteley

[Moshe Braner]

On 7/4/2022 9:49 AM, Tony wrote:
> Bikle's altitude record was set with a tow out of KWJF to 10,000' behind an 85hp Luscombe.

I once got a tow (flying an HP14) behind a Luscombe that also carried a
full-size passenger, through the rotor on a wave day, to about 4000
AGL. That was rather uncomfortable (due to the turbulence) and took a
long time (due to the lower power). And, while Bikle would have found
the wave, I only found the sink, and beat the plane back to the airport ;-)

[Hank Nixon]

On Tuesday, July 5, 2022 at 10:41:03 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
> Yes, those are valid reasons to be cranky, but do we want nice, laid-back tow pilots who will let this behavior continue? Or do we need crotchety, old SOBs who will attempt to stamp out shaky performance from the pilot on the end of the trolling line?

I've been trying , from both ends, to reduce stupid pilot stuff for more than 40 years. We emphasize these issues at every safety meeting.
We still continue to have pilots not ready to go, with checklist complete, when the tug shows up. We're at about 50% most days. We talk till we are blue in the face about how we lose the picture of the traffic situation when the pace is broken. We also have to mix with a towed hang glider operation(talk about random events).
Most common tow pilot yell-" Get in the fucking glider!"
But we still love it and do it anyway.
We reserve the right to be cranky.
UH

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

You have never met cranky until you meet OBTP, I take ass chewing to a new level! I even had a glider pilot get out of his glider because he forgot to put his chute on. Or what about an instructor doing a debriefing while you are sitting there burning 100LL at 7 plus bucks a gallon, don't blame me, I did not vote for the clown! Yes, us old cranky tow pilots certainly have reason to snarl at the so called glider pilots when they are holding up the entire operation. Do NOT think that motor glider sissies are any better at getting the heck out of the way. The ones that I have seen just sit there with the peanut engine running trying to gather attention prior to some anemic takeoff and motoring around like John Wayne in some kind of western shoot out .I have a rule book for glider pilots and rule number 5 simply states , Don't Piss Off The Pow Pilot. it could very well be your last tow.
Someone once told me that they thought UH was grumpy until they met me. Old Bob, The Purist

[George Haeh]

Winch with turbo diesel works fine launching 2-seaters at 3900' even on hot days.

If the wind is low, you get a few extra hundred feet if the winch driver focuses on the tension gauge instead of the speedometer.

The advantage of a winch over a towplane is that the winch weight stays on the ground.

[dale bush]

Old Bob, do a deep dive into the cause of high gas prices and then get back to us explaining just how it’s Biden’s fault.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Twofive, pay close attention, you may learn something.
1-Long before the invasion of Ukraine old prices were increasing.
2- Poor world energy policies, ie, Green Tank Radicals.
3- One day Executive Order cancels Keystone pipeline disrupting 800, 000 barrels a day toward USA.
4-Biden administration undermining energy policies.
5-Inflation, CPI up 7.9% from 2020.
6- Oil Futures Cost!
7- The energy political salience created by the Biden administration
8- Greater restrictions on drilling.
Now I hope this bit of factual information gets you through the day, with the Biden administration approval rating in the 20% ratings maybe Trump was not such a bad guy after all, at least we could eat affordable grilled chicken wings. Old Bob, The Purist

[waltco...@aol.com]

Most glider pilots only get to observe a few tows, theirs and a few in front of them. The tow pilot sees them all, careless, stupid, dangerous, all of them. My record day was 57 tows, 90 percent were just fine and the remaining 10 percent were in need of paying better attention or some additional training. Any comments I may have made to them later went in one ear and out the other. If in 10 percent of your life you find yourself in near peril you need to reevaluate your situation. Maybe I was just being grumpy?

I wonder how many times a day a busy operation was saved of an accident by an observant (or maybe grumpy) tow pilot? I was looking in the mirror one day as I thought I could see a solo pilot get in the back seat of a training glider. The Japanese students who hooked him up seemed concerned but being polite Japanese and only students themselves they seemed to think maybe it was okay? I shut down and walked back to make sure I saw what I thought I saw and there he was, empty front seat, him in the back. Asked him what his intention was and he informed me he had been checked out to fly in the back seat. I informed him of the minimum weight requirement for the front seat and suggested he do a weight and balance in his current situation. I also suggested he discuss with his instructor what he was about to do. I believe I might have prevented an accident that day, he flew from the front. I'm not sure how badly it would have handled under those conditions but I didn't want him to find out the hard way. Just being a grumpy old tow pilot.

I remember an impatient glider pilot sitting in position for a tow as I pulled up to the pumps to refuel. I had a hard and fast rule of 1.5 hours on the tach at which time I would refuel. He came on the radio and asked, "Hey tow plane, don't you have one more tow in that gas tank?" I'm sure I did but I was thirsty and needed to relieve myself, flying in the hot Florida sun can drain you and it is a safety measure to hydrate on a regular basis. I told him I just might have but I didn't want to find out the hard way that I didn't. Was I being grumpy? He had some unkind words for me at the end of the day but I let it pass. I guess there are grumpy glider pilots too. Not long after that I observed the most experienced and senior tow pilot at the operation take off, make a turn to the upwind and a few seconds later heard the engine back fire heavily. He had run out of fuel maybe 500 feet in the air. He released and made it back to the field. I helped him push the plane up to the pumps, I must have had an incredulous look on my face. He shrugged off the incident and said "Walt, you worry too much." No, I worry just the right amount, always have always will. Had that happened a few seconds earlier I'm sure we would have had a significant accident on our hands.

My last squadron commander in Vietnam was a full Colonel, he had done it all, flew P51's and F86s in Korea, the F4 over North Vietnam. He was often thought to be grumpy but in retrospect I understood that he only insisted things be done right, the USAF way, no stone left unturned, by the book. Sometimes he had to crack the whip to get people to perform. We had a perfect operational record under his command, not so his predecessor.

Sometimes people have a reason to be grumpy, tow pilots among them. Have a nice day everyone, I hope to get to fly a helicopter today. Gonna see how my back feels in that rock assed hard Gimbal Cabri G2 seat.

Walt

[Jacque Meoff]

[Uri Savoray]

On Tuesday, 28 June 2022 at 23:12:56 UTC+3, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> One issue is insurance. I'm not knowledgeable enough to propose a specific remedy, but could the SSA endowment be used, in part, for some blanket policy that would cover owner/operators of tugs? During contests only?
>
> I know the Pawnee has been a godsend, as the single seat cut insurance vs. L-19's, 182's &c. But they're aging and the outfit that holds the TC is of no assistance.
>
> Another remedy might be getting to the bottom of the FAA's boilerplate restriction against aircraft with an experimental a/w cert being used for tows. I know it has not always been applied, but can we get a path towards eliminating it and get experimental aircraft designed purely as tugs...perhaps when passengers are not carried in either aircraft?

Anybody looking at LSA/Ultralight airplanes as tow planes in the USA: notice that they are usually tested and certified to tow with a MAX weak link of 300 KGf (3000N, 661 pounds), which is the minimum EASA requires. This doesn't comply with the FAR for any but the lightest gliders (minimum 80% of glider max weight).

Can anyone recall what the origin of this rule (FAR 91.309)? There is no similar restriction in Europe, AFAIK.

As a note: we conducted some experiments, measuring the actual forces on the tow rope when towing a G103. We couldn't exert more than 200KGf no matter how we abused the the glider.
Uri

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, June 28, 2022 at 2:12:56 PM UTC-6, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> One issue is insurance. I'm not knowledgeable enough to propose a specific remedy, but could the SSA endowment be used, in part, for some blanket policy that would cover owner/operators of tugs? During contests only?
>
> I know the Pawnee has been a godsend, as the single seat cut insurance vs. L-19's, 182's &c. But they're aging and the outfit that holds the TC is of no assistance.
>
> Another remedy might be getting to the bottom of the FAA's boilerplate restriction against aircraft with an experimental a/w cert being used for tows. I know it has not always been applied, but can we get a path towards eliminating it and get experimental aircraft designed purely as tugs...perhaps when passengers are not carried in either aircraft?

FWIW, Arizona Soaring's Facebook page has pictures of it's new, zero time Puelche (Pawnee PA-25-260) and announces that they are the US/Canada rep with Laviasa Aircraft, the producer. Nothing on their web site yet.

[2G]

Tows are being done at Ely, NV (9kft density altitude) with a 230hp C-182. I saw a 1969 C-182 with a low-time 230hp engine for sale at $76k. It would be much easier to find tow pilots because of the tricycle gear. A club could do a lease-back to generate more revenue.

Of course, I got out of tow plane/tow pilot hell by buying a motorglider years ago.

Tom