15-meter class vs 18-meter class: An opinion
Tapio Savolainen
the 15-meter class by a more expensive class. However, John’s details
about Germany’s attack against 15-meter are not accurate enough. The
fact is that there is no official move by the German Aeroclub to replace
15-meter class by the 18-meter class. Bruno Gantenbrink, who is the
Alternate Delegate of Germany in IGC, wrote two Memorandums before the
Spring IGC Meeting. First he proposed “IGC to include World Class
officially for the next World Gliding Championships 1997 in St. Auban as
a fourth class (or even with the consequences of dropping one of the
other three classes).” Later Bruno published another Memorandum, where
he wrote: “Rather than just adding the World Class as a fourth class IGC
should take the opportunity of restructuring the FAI-classes for a long
term future. Internationally we do not need four single-seater
classes...” The final conclusion of Bruno’s second Memorandum was to
have three classes also in the future. According to him they should be:
World Class, Standard Class and 18-meter Class.
On the basis of this two Memorandums of Bruno Gantenbrink a working group
was established during the Spring IGC Meeting. The chairman of the
working group was Alvaro de Orleans-Borbon. After a lively but time
limited discussion Alvaro suggested a letter of intention, which included
four items:
1. The World Championships will include three classes in one big event.
However these classes can be different from the existing ones, for
example World Class may be one of them.
2. Not more than three classes in one event.
3. The existing classes (STD, 15M and Open) will stay at least 10 years.
4. IGC will establish later an 18-meter glider/motor glider class, which
may replace one of the existing classes.
These items are based on my personal notes. The final version was
probably slightly different. I strongly opposed to any letters of
intention. I felt that any action towards changing the existing class
structure would cause rumors and uncertainty among the glider pilots.
In the working group I had very little support with my opinions.
However, in the plenary the letter of intention was down graded to
something else (maybe to a resolution). In addition to that a
Subcommittee for competition task philosophies (and the class
structure) was established. The chairman of this subcommittee is Bruno
Gantenbrink and the members are Herbert Pirker (AUT), Alvaro de
Orleans-Borbon (MON), Waldemar Ratajczak (POL), Gene Hammond (USA), Bruno
Liege (FRA) and Tapio Savolainen (FIN). The subcommittee was supposed to
meet at least twice before the end of the year. Unfortunately there have
been no meetings this far. I hope there will be at least one before the
Spring Meeting of IGC.
These are the facts this far. Germany as a country has not made any
proposals for the classes. I believe it is impossible to find a common
German opinion for this matter either. I have a feeling that John
overestimated the desire of the manufacturers to establish a new class,
too. Most of them have a brand new 15-meter class glider in the market.
They cannot afford to make them worthless.
After this back ground information I am free to tell my PERSONAL
OPINIONS:
1. 15-Meter Class is a very equal class. The only handicap is between
the stick and the back rest. It does not matter whether you fly an LS-6,
Ventus, ASW-27 or even an old ASW-20. Is there any reason to lose this
advantage.
2. 15-Meter Class is very popular. In major events it is about even with
the Standard Class. With more expensive 18-meter class gliders it would
be less popular. Standard class would be the only choice for too many
countries. What is the advantage?
3. The performance difference between the Standard Class and the 15-Meter
Class is small, maybe less than 5 %. What then? The classes do not
compete against each other. Why would 15 or 20 % be better than 5 %?
4. 18-Meter glider is naturally a better platform for a motor glider.
You can buy 18-meter motor gliders today (ASH-26, Ventus 2 CM, LS-9,
DG-800M). We do not need to establish a class to have them. The real
innovation is to build a competitive 15-meter class glider with an
engine. According to German report in Helsinki IGC Meeting two weeks ago
integration of the gliders and motor gliders in the same contest does not
work as well as estimated.
5. The existing 15-meter gliders are very flexible. You can add the span
(and the performance) with extra wing tips up to 18-meters. This option
does not exist in Standard Class. The wing tip extension is rather cheap
way to increase the performance. A glider that is designed to 18-meter
span would be some 20-30% more expensive than existing 15-meter racers.
And with an extra 10% you would get 20 or 22 meter span with wing tips...
6. The big, world wide problem of gliding is the lack of money.
Increasing the cost is the wrong way to go. Instead of replacing
15-meter class by 18-meter class we should put every effort to the
success of the World Class. It is the way to lower the cost and find new
enthusiasts into gliding.
If I were a God and there were no gliders in the world I would prefer a
17- or 18-meter class instead of 15-meter one, but in the real World,
where we have thousands of competitive and safe 15-meter gliders around,
we cannot afford to sacrifice them. I know that both Bruno Gantenbrink
and Alvaro de Orleans-Borbon have different opinions than me. Still I
respect their opinions and have a good reason to believe that their
intention is to discuss openly about class structure (and other
philosophical things), not behind the curtains.
Tapio Savolainen
IGC Vice President
Guenther Seemann
FAI-class discussion.
As he pointed out there is no official attempt of the German Aero Club to
abandon the FAI-15m-class. Concerning the 18m-class it should be mentioned
that in Germany this class was established 3 or 4 years ago. Since then we saw
this class in the German decentralized championships.
Until now there were two attempts for 18m-class nationals but both had no
luck with the weather, so there is still no German 18m-champion.
On the other hand there are enough pilots in the 15m-class that no one
seriously deliberates of taking this class away from the championships.
If I recall the people I know who have 18m-gliders it seems that almost
everyone has the motorglider version. These type of pilots have their "wild
times of competion flying" far behind them and only want to enjoy long flights
without the urge of a pick-up crew, a ground crew and a tug. I doubt that the
majority of the 18m-glider owners are longing for an official FAI-18m-class.
The manufacturers recognized this and have still a competitive 15m-glider in
production: ASW-27, LS6-c, Ventus 2. Even DG, who was first offering the DG800
as a pure 18m motorglider with the option of 15m tips, is now offering the
DG800S without the engine and also, that's quite new, with the 15m wingspan
only (it can be fitted with the 18m tips later anyway). Some months
ago such a version was not available. I can't imagine a better sign for the
strength of the 15m-class.
BTW: The designation DG800M as used by some posters is not correct. The DG800
and now the DG800B are motorgliders. The derived glider version is designated
DG800S. My interpretation of the 'S' was always "Segelflug" but in the current
process at DG of naming their types (i.e. DG505 ORION) it turned out to be
"Skorpion".
But back to the FAI-classes. I agree that three classes are enough for a world
championship. I don't like the idea of abandon one of the existing classes.
Maybe we find the solution in divided world championship events. In one year
the traditional classes, in the following year the world- and 18m-class.
- Guenther
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Guenther Seemann ---+---
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LS6-a, D-0616
e-mail: S...@WZL-MTQ1.WZL.RWTH-AACHEN.DE
John Roake
Savolainen) wrote:
> I agree with my good friend John Roake that we cannot afford to replace
> the 15-meter class by a more expensive class.
MY PERCEPTION of events does not totally agree with this report. Tapio
fails to clarify that the issue was voted on twice, once in the committee
stages, and again in the plenary session where New Zealand was
particularly vocal and led the charge to have the matter łlie on the
table˛ for 12 months. Had opposition to the Bruno Gantenbrinkąs
memo/motion, (which ever you like to call it), not manifested itself, it
is extremely likely that today (or at latest, March 96) the phasing out of
the 15 metre class could be under way.
I believe Tapio discounts Germany intentions far too lightly and may be a
little naive. There is an exceptionally strong/financial 18 metre group
in Germany who want to see a World Championship in their class at any
price and that price could well be the 15 metre class. I have no
objection to an 18 metre World Championship provided it does not
interfere with the current World Championship structure as Bruno is
advocating.
It is my opinion that the way this subject was introduced at the March
meeting created a major smokescreen to hide the real issues behind, and I
was very vocal in so declaring. The issue was sprung on the delegates,
none of whom had any voting instructions from their National Aero Clubs.
Brunoąs memorandum stated ( in part):
Quote
I believe that the standard-class should not be changed. Rather than just
cancelling either the 15m class or the Open class it also seems to me that
it is more appropriate to combine the advantages of these two classes into
one new class (proposal - 18m) Such a class would in contrast to the
existing 15 m class - have a real increase in performance compared with
the standard class. It could also be (with the exception of wingspan) be
a class for the future technical developments. Further more it is an ideal
class for the integration of sailplanes and motor gliders.
Unquote
So now the subject is on the world stage. My goal is to ensure that
every 15 metre owner world wide has addressed the problem through their
National Aero Club, and that their I.G.C. delegate has specific voting
instructions on the matter when it will be again discussed in Paris, March
96. The democratic process will/must prevail.
Jon Meis
: These are the facts this far. Germany as a country has not made any
: proposals for the classes. I believe it is impossible to find a common
: German opinion for this matter either.
As far as I know, the FAL, meeting of competition pilots in Germany,
decided, that in 1998 the German nationals are flown in 4 classes. There
will be two contests, one with Standard Class and 15m Class, the other 18m
and Open Class. Motorgliders will be integrated. This four Classes will run
parallel for the next ten years before there will be a decision about
cancelling one class.
Almost one year ago,I started a discussion about the Classes. The reason was
the idea that Bruno Gantenbrink gave to discussion on the Deutscher
Segelfliegertag, German soaringpilots meeting, in the fall of '94. It was
the same idea, Bruno mentioned on the IGC meeting. The result of this
discussion was, that the 15m Class shouldn't die. Rather the Standard Class,
or just combine both classes. Mostly 15m ship pilots posted their opinion.
On the German national teams meeting, two weeks ago, there was a discussion
with the manufacturers, and they said, that there are hardly any competition
pilots, who bought a new 18m ship. The most pilots who buy them, buy them as
a motorglider for fun flights.
But I'm shure that, if there are world championships in the 18m Class, a
bunch of good pilots will change from 15m to 18m Class. Who does not want to
be a world champion?
--
Jon
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Jon Meis *** eMail ub...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
Shaber CJ
their opinions regarding the subject posting. Maybe they can even provide
data as to what type of pilot is buying 18 metre vs 15 metre, a what are
the manufacturer's opinion as to future of the classes.
Craig Shaber
Michael C. Steckner
15m ship, and their future. However, if I am not mistaken, there are
several market forces which are also driving the manufacturers
to start thinking about 17-18m class ships.
We can only support a finite number of classes (supposedly). The entry
of the world class glider complicates things because I would doubt
that the major manufacturers would ever get involved in production.
So scratch one class that the manufacturers can market in.
Many glider pilots want motorgliders. My understanding is that
some of the manufacturers now build the appropriate hard points
into ALL of their sailplanes, whether the person purchasing the
unit wants a motor or not. The future owner might want to retrofit.
(Is it Schliecher that is doing this? Memory is hazy on this point).
The little motors have a big job. Wingspan helps. Now stick a load
of water in that self launching glider. Hmmm. And add to that the
wing loading limitations. I dont follow all the technical details
(maybe the net aerodynamicists can fill in the details) but as I
understand it, the current wing loading maximums favour wingspans
around 17-18 meters. Fortunately it coincides with what works well
for motorgliders. So glider pilots like motors and we have a wing
loading limit. The manufacturers need to fill a customer requirement.
One option is to put removable wingtips on the glider so that it
can still be used as a 15m racer. We have been told that you cannot
optimize a planform for two different wingspans. There is no 18m
class as of yet, so presumably manufacturers will maximize for the 15m
contest crowd. Back to step one, what do we do with wing loading
limits and motors and span?
So it is like changing the tax code. Someone will feel screwed, and
for good reason!
If we arbitrarily claim that we can only support third sailplane
classes, which ones will they be? Presumably world class is here
to stay. Presumably we would want an open class in which anything is
allowed (drive new developments?) Now pick the third class.
It will be a difficult decision.
Given that the major market is Europe/Germany and the major
manufacturers are German, market forces will be most apparent there.
That is why the discussion and final decision will largely be
driven from Europe.
Given that the incremental improvement for sailplanes is getting
smaller and it is taking longer to come to market, the next ten years
might be the best time to make this draconian decision. No SGS 1-26s
have been built in years, but the contest scene is flourishing and the
used prices of 1-26s is increasing slightly. To this add the delay
while sufficient numbers of the new sailplane class come into existance
and I suspect that 15m type ships will lead a worthwhile existence
for many years to come.
Michael
ma...@aslvx1.sugar-land.anadrill.slb.com
The final conclusion of Bruno’s second Memorandum was to
>have three classes also in the future. According to him they should be:
>World Class, Standard Class and 18-meter Class.
>
I personally find that conclusion rather astounding. The 15-meter class
in the US is the most popular class in terms of the number of sailplanes
that are available and competitive; the standard class is the most
popular in Europe. There are virtually no 18 meter ships in the country,
and only two or three 'world class'.
Why any FAI delegate would consider obseleting a popular class is beyond
me. It's like getting rid of formula 1 in auto racing.
The 15-meter class offers safety benefits over the standard class ships.
The lower landing speed really helps when you are trying to dump into
a small field.
As for the 18-meter class, a ship optimized for this span will be significantly
heavier and more expensive than the 15-meter variant. We don't need
to increase the cost any more than it is.
PS: I found Tapio's opinions particularly enlightening and well
reasoned. He get's my vote.
Regards, Peter Masak
Al Bowers
I wasn't going to post this to the entire forum, but was persueded
otherwise. Keep in mind, I'm a nobody in the soaring community; and
the fact that anyone would read what I have to say alongside people
like Peter Masak and Tom Knauff is pretty incredible to me. But here
is what I happen to think...
Peter Masak wrote:
>In article <45h7lc$1...@idefix.eunet.fi>, savol...@tapio.pp.fi (Tapio
Savolainen) writes:
>>World Class, Standard Class and 18-meter Class.
>Why any FAI delegate would consider obseleting a popular class is beyond
>me.
I completely agree. Somewhat akin to saying, "let's ignore what most
of the _OWNERS_ and _BUILDERS_ have all done and do something
completely at odds with what exists." However...
>It's like getting rid of formula 1 in auto racing.
If you think of the Open class as Formula One auto racing, and so on
down the line to Standard class being Formula Three, then follow me on
this. Closely look at the FIM Formula racing car series, you will
note that about 10 years ago, the FIM did exactly what you have
proposed. They abolished all Formula 2 racing and replaced it with a
different series that had _NOTHING_ to do with the old Formula 2
series (called Formula 3000). Unfortunately, the only way to support
such a thing was through advertising (which auto racing, fortunately,
was available to fund such a move) and it succeeded. Sailplane racing
has no such deep pockets to fall back on.
While technical advances make cars obsolete rapidly (sometimes in less
than a year), sailplanes tend to maintain their competitive lives for
much longer. While such rule changes can stimulate technical
innovation in a series with rapid turnover, it has the opposite effect
in a series where the turnover rate is low. It tends to kill the
series. rules changes have to be made at least one generation in
advance of where the present product line will become obsolete, or it
is too painful to compete and the series dies a quick and untimely
death.
I hope this proposal never sees the light of day, for all our sakes...
Al Bowers