Re: Lubricant for spar pins

[JS]

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 8:44:13 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Did a search of RAS and all the threads were quite old, so I thought I would ask what lubricant do you use when assembling your glider? I have noticed that the lube that comes with Schleicher gliders seems to have more friction and lube. Of course there is the old standby of white lithium, but any new ideas?

Lanolin?
https://www.fluid-film.com/products/gel-bw/
Jim

[Tim Taylor]

Replaced lithium grease with clear silicone or silicone with PTFE. The newer lubricants are cleaner and less likely to attract dust. Seach Super Lube. A small tube will last for years.

[t...@serkowski.com]

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 9:22:57 PM UTC-8, Tim Taylor wrote:
> Replaced lithium grease with clear silicone or silicone with PTFE. The newer lubricants are cleaner and less likely to attract dust. Seach Super Lube. A small tube will last for years.

http://www.super-lube.com/synthetic-multipurpose-grease-ezp-49.html

[ifee...@hotmail.com]

Aeroshell 33. I've only seen one glider manual that said anything more specific than something like "use a non cold-coagulating grease" and if I recall correctly it was the L33 my club used to own and the manual had a MIL-Spec that Aeroshell 6 satisfied. I found that 6 was somewhat better than white lithium for resisting corrosion on a ship kept outdoors here in the rainy Pacific Northwest but 33 was MUCH better. Damn hard to wash off your clothes though.

[chuck]

Jonkers is quite specific on their lube spec. From the JS1 Maintennance Manual:

-!Super Lube® Synthetic Grease with Syncolon® (PTFE) Multi-Purpose Lubricant.

[Dan Marotta]

Be sure to purchase the 400 lb drum so you can share it with your friends!

--
Dan, 5J

[Papa3]

Been using Superlube for about 20 years. Much better than traditional (e.g. white lithium) and other stuff I've seen people using. Very temperature stable - keeps a fairly consistent viscosity on very cold days and very hot days. Doesn't seem to pick up as much grime. Easy to spread a fairly uniform film. I use it for the spar pins as well as any other parts that require grease (such as the lift pins and fitting, horizontal stab pins, etc.). One tube lasts about 5 years.

P3

[George Haeh]

My AME (Canadian for A&P) is a big fan of Tri Flow Superior.

Good enough for rotor heads, but don't know what helicopters it's specified
for.

Keeps parts clean.

There's a number of similar lubricants.

[john firth]

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 11:44:13 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Did a search of RAS and all the threads were quite old, so I thought I would ask what lubricant do you use when assembling your glider? I have noticed that the lube that comes with Schleicher gliders seems to have more friction and lube. Of course there is the old standby of white lithium, but any new ideas?

Wot? nobody pushing good old WD 40?
Seriously, surely the meticulous glider pilot must treat load bearing pins differently from spar locking pins.

And, of course, different specs for summer and winter.

I recall a case where none of these substances had been applied.
When responding to a call for someone who knows how to derig an
Olympia, I found it impossible to push, tap or hammer the taper pins out,
even when there were guys lifting the wing tips. You just could not
safely swing a sledge hammer standing in the cockpit; so we removed the
lifting pins without too much trouble, and removed the one piece wing.
Then one could really get a swing at those pins, which yielded to reveal
a coating of Fe2O3H20; rust! Last time it had been rigged was at a
repair facility!!

JMF

[drguya...@gmail.com]

I have used 100% synthetic Mobil 1 grease for three gliders that I fly in the heat of summer and the very very cold winters. Does not get stiff in the winter or runny in the summer.

[Kiwi User]

On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 15:35:29 -0800, john firth wrote:

> Wot? nobody pushing good old WD 40?
>

Geez: don't ever think its a lubricant. Its a glue once it dries out!

Sure, use it to loosen frozen bearings, wing pins etc. but once its done
that magic, flush it out with a decent solvent and, if the bearing/pin/
etc needs it, re-lubricate with the appropriate grease or oil.

How do I know? Many years of flying competition free flight power models
in dusty places, that's how. After each flight in a dusty place (Taft or
Lost Hills for my US readers, Poitou and the Flevoland comps for the
rest) you need to blast the dust out of the clockwork engine + d/t timer
before the next flight, and a WD40 rattle can is a good as anything for
that. However, if you don't immediately strip and clean the timer after
the contest has ended, it will not run next time you go out to fly
because the WD40 solvent has evaporated, leaving sticky goo on all the
cogs in the timer.

Those of you who have flown F/F power models will know this, but it may
surprise the rest.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie
| dot org

[raxy...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 8:44:13 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Did a search of RAS and all the threads were quite old, so I thought I would ask what lubricant do you use when assembling your glider? I have noticed that the lube that comes with Schleicher gliders seems to have more friction and lube. Of course there is the old standby of white lithium, but any new ideas?

I have always used a molybdenum grease (aeroshell 33) for my main-pin. That is a grease intended for heavily-loaded pins in large aircraft. It's a grey grease, but it cleans up fine. I could only buy it in a fairly large tube, which has lasted me 15 years and the tube still has plenty left, even with me sharing the tube with a few friends. I also add a smear of super-lube grease to the main pin too. This practice has never caused me any problems. For other pins, I use superlube grease.

[Steve Koerner]

Another vote for Super Lube here. I'm convinced that the PTFE really makes a difference in ease of assembly. Plus it's a lot less messy than other greases I've used over the years.

[JS]

On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 4:19:47 AM UTC-8, chuck wrote:
> Jonkers is quite specific on their lube spec. From the JS1 Maintennance Manual:
> -!Super Lube® Synthetic Grease with Syncolon® (PTFE) Multi-Purpose Lubricant.

I like Tri-flo, have used Lanox and all the usual suspects.
But that's a great recommendation.
Jim

[Eric Greenwell]

My ASH 26 E manual warns against using molybdenum disulphide grease (Aeroshell 33
contains 5% of it) on the main pins because it can damage the brass bushings in
the wing. So, be sure to check it's compatibility if your bushings are brass.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[bumper]

On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 9:30:44 AM UTC-8, Papa3 wrote:
> Been using Superlube for about 20 years. > P3

Likewise, and for all the same reasons. Works well for gun lube when grease is called for as well. Not nearly as messy as regular grease.

[Jim White]

At 23:35 07 January 2018, john firth wrote:
>Wot? nobody pushing good old WD 40?
>Seriously, surely the meticulous glider pilot must treat load bearing
pins

>=
Tell me why? I am presently using WD40 specialist spray grease. Very slippy
and easy to apply.

Jim

[raxy...@gmail.com]

Hi Eric
I see the Aeroshell 5% molybdenum disulphide grease is now sold as Aeroshell 64. It's widely used in aircraft. I wasn't aware of the Schleicher caution against it, and haven't seen any caution from SH. I wonder where Schleicher got their information. I don't see any problems reported when using it with brass in an internet search. There is a copper-corrosion test in the 21164 mil standard for greases (5% moly grease passes) but the real-world meaning of that test isn't clear to me.
regards

[Papa3]

I think most folks view WD40 as the "traditional" water displacement product in the blue can which is nothing like the WD40 Spray Grease you're using. If anyone really wants to do the work, you can look at some of the key tests that should be published on the Technical Data Sheets for whatever product you use to see how it performs. Things like ASTM D2266 2596 etc. define critical wear prevention properties.

P3

[Dan Marotta]

White lithium grease works fine on my Stemme year round, including wave
flying.  When the outboard panels are installed, there are no shear
loads on the pins and they slide smoothly in and out.  When they start
to feel sticky, I wipe them off with a paper towel and apply a fresh,
light coating of grease and smooth, easy installation is restored. 
There's really no need to use grease from Mars or Uranus...

On 1/7/2018 4:54 PM, drguya...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have used 100% synthetic Mobil 1 grease for three gliders that I fly in the heat of summer and the very very cold winters. Does not get stiff in the winter or runny in the summer.

--
Dan, 5J

[Jim White]

At 14:13 08 January 2018, Papa3 wrote:
>On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-5, Jim White wrote:
>> At 23:35 07 January 2018, john firth wrote:
>> >Wot? nobody pushing good old WD 40?
>> >Seriously, surely the meticulous glider pilot must treat load bearing
>> pins

>> >=3D

>> Tell me why? I am presently using WD40 specialist spray grease. Very

>slip=
>py
>> and easy to apply.
>>=20

>> Jim
>
>I think most folks view WD40 as the "traditional" water displacement

>produc=

>t in the blue can which is nothing like the WD40 Spray Grease you're

>using.=

> If anyone really wants to do the work, you can look at some of the key

>t=

>ests that should be published on the Technical Data Sheets for whatever

>pro=

>duct you use to see how it performs. Things like ASTM D2266 2596 etc.

>def=
>ine critical wear prevention properties. =20
>
>P3
>
>
Datasheet says:

4-ball Wear Test 0.5 mm (ASTM D-4172) ,
Dropping Point Temperature 118°C (ASTM D566) ,
Corrosion Protection in salt spray test 0 % rust at 72h (ASTM B-117) ,
Temperature (Continuous) -20°C to +115°C as grease, then to +260°C as
liquid

Is that any good?

Jim

[jfitch]

Dry moly can cause corrosion, as it absorbs moisture from the air and the disulphide turns into sulfuric acid. Any good grease is a concoction of ingredients, some of which are inhibitors to make sure that doesn't happen. I believe the concern is theoretical, more than real.

[Kiwi User]

I notice that the "Super Lube grease with Syncolon" is available in the
UK in 90mm tubes from Amazon, so have decided that I'll have one before
my Libelle's next annual is due in March: I need to bbuy some grease
before then anyway.

[kirk.stant]

Come on, the most important quality for main pin grease it that it leave a permanent circular stain on the thighs of your favorite flying pants/shorts - how else will other glider-guiders recognize you as one of the true believers at the field?

Even Pez D. Spencer knew that!

66

[WB]

I have seen molybdenum disulphide grease cause galling in brass parts on some pneumatic equipment. Moly is pretty much an "anti-lubricant" for brass.

[Bob Kuykendall]

We wax our pins twice a season, usually once before winter storage and again in the spring, mostly for corrosion protection. During the flying season we use whatever slippery comes to hand, usually the same grease as we don't use on O2 system parts.


--Bob K.

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 2:33:59 PM UTC-5, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> We wax our pins twice a season, usually once before winter storage and again in the spring, mostly for corrosion protection. During the flying season we use whatever slippery comes to hand, usually the same grease as we don't use on O2 system parts.
>
>
> --Bob K.

I've used plain old Vaseline petroleum jelly for 40 years or so with no known bad effects.
UH

[Kiwi User]

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 09:41:57 -0800, kirk.stant wrote:

> Come on, the most important quality for main pin grease it that it leave
> a permanent circular stain on the thighs of your favorite flying
> pants/shorts - how else will other glider-guiders recognize you as one
> of the true believers at the field?
>

... the bucket hat?

[Papa3]

On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 3:38:45 PM UTC-5, Kiwi User wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 09:41:57 -0800, kirk.stant wrote:

> >

> ... the bucket hat?
>
>

Which my wife fondly refers to as Birth Control. "There's no way you're getting laid wearing that thing".

[jpg...@gmail.com]

Now someone tells me!

[cliff...@gmail.com]

lol, My wife stole mine washed it and dyed it purple. It was getting pretty bad with several thousand hours on it :) Even the airport manager at Moriarty gave me a new one as he thought it needed to be thrown out!

CH

[markm...@gmail.com]

Come on, the most important quality for main pin grease it that it leave a permanent circular stain on the thighs of your favorite flying pants/shorts - how else will other glider-guiders recognize you as one of the true believers at the field?

Even Pez D. Spencer knew that!

Ahhh, yes. The Schempp-Hirth sphincter kiss!

Thanks for the Pez reminder. Gotta check that out again.

[Papa3]

If you're going to land out on the beach, then you've only got 72 hours :-)

I haven't played with a test rig for this in over 30 years (college was a while ago), but the 4 ball wear test is for sliding and friction (putting the pins in and taking them out ). There's also a 4 ball welding test that shows how the grease holds up under extreme pressure (e.g. getting smushed by the loading of the wings under bending). The thing that's most obvious to us who fly all year from cold winters to very hot summers is the temperature stability. Looks like the WD40 Grease is probably good enough.

Before anyone complains - yeah this thread has probably gone past its useful life. My sense is that the first step is using SOMETHING religiously to protect against wear and corrosion. Something that's convenient to use and relatively clean probably means you'll be more likely to use it religiously.

[Craig Funston]

It's not usually the spar pins that are critical for lubrication (short of making sure the pin will go in or out). It's the lift pins (fuselage pins that transfer the weight of the fuselage to the root ribs). These pins see small sliding motions under load every time the rudder is engaged. The first course of action is to make sure the shims between the root rib and fuselage bosses minimize any movement although it's impossible to completely eliminate movement and still get the glider assembled. These pins are usually steel on steel with the steel dowel engaging a self aligning ball type socket. I've replaced pins that have shown significant wear so this is a real phenomenon although probably more pronounced on heavier gliders with longer wings. Use a good quality grease that protects against corrosion and provides low friction under high bearing loads.

Cheers,
Craig 7Q

[6PK]

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 8:44:13 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Did a search of RAS and all the threads were quite old, so I thought I would ask what lubricant do you use when assembling your glider? I have noticed that the lube that comes with Schleicher gliders seems to have more friction and lube. Of course there is the old standby of white lithium, but any new ideas?

Super Lube for the pins, Tri-flo for everything else.. Lithium grease becomes lithium glue after a while...

[ND]

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 11:44:13 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Did a search of RAS and all the threads were quite old, so I thought I would ask what lubricant do you use when assembling your glider? I have noticed that the lube that comes with Schleicher gliders seems to have more friction and lube. Of course there is the old standby of white lithium, but any new ideas?

i know a very well respected pilot with a good reputation for maintenance who uses plain old vaseline. both because it works, and because it washes out of clothes. no more grease rings on your thigh.

[jpg...@gmail.com]

Be secure in your machismo - use a rigging apron!

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Putting on and then removing a rigging apron takes valuable time, time that you might not be able to afford in a high-speed relight from an early off-field landing in a competition.

Wait...those aren't allowed anymore. Living in the past. How many on this group recall those "exciting" dashes back to the contest, throwing the glider together as fast as possible, and relaunching, hoping to do better the second time? The rapid assembly was sometimes made easier by taking some shortcuts in the derigging process at the landout site. We once hauled our 1-26 back without installing the spar hold down bolts on the trailer by parking someone in the back of the station wagon to to make sure the wings didn't slide off the trailer during the 10 mile drive back to the contest site. A long time ago.

Chip Bearden