Connecticut Soaring Center
Jim Kearman
Seymour accelerated ground school at Bradley Airport
Saturday, but it was cancelled (not enough enrollees).
Instead, I paid a visit to the only commercial soaring
operation I'm aware of in Connecticut, Connecticut
Soaring Center, in Plymouth, CT.
Plymouth is in the western part of CT, about 15 miles
north of Waterbury. In fact, the facility is called
Waterbury Airport. It's a grass strip and a shack.
I talked to John C. Homrok, the president and instructor.
They were booked up for the weekend, so my first lesson
is next Sunday, 1030 EDT. I'm a little excited....
Here are the rates, from their brochure (standard disclaimers):
SAILPLANE RENTAL PER HOUR: Minimum 15 minutes per flight
Grob G103 $45 Schweizer 1-26 $28
Grob G102 35 Schweizer 2-33 38
Grob G103A 55
AERO TOW CHARGES: Minimum tow altitude 1500 feet
1500 ft $20 3000 ft $30
2000 ft 25 Over 3000 ft: $2/100 ft
2500 ft 27 Rope break: 15
INSTRUCTION
Primary $30
Advanced 35
Aerobatic 50
TIE DOWN
Seasonal $250/season Daily $10/day
Open 45/month Rigging charge 10
Trailer 20/month
Training is done in the G103.
Their phone number is 203-283-5819.
I welcome email comments; I suspect these rates are higher
than the US norm, but they seem to be the only game in town
(in state!). I could go up to Pittsfield, Massachussetts, but
the drive is much longer. I can zip down to this place for an
afternoon of lessons. Pittsfield's a two-hour drive.
I'd rather not commit myself to a club until I'm certain I
want to fly--having never been in a glider.... (My friend,
who reads this group, was going to take me for a ride, but
never finished his transition training--it's your fault, JRS!
John said they'd "take care" of the ground school stuff there.
What is the experience of other US pilots who started in
gliders (not transitioning from power)? Did you go to a formal
ground school?
Jim
guy byars
|>
|> stuff deleted [....]
|>
|> TIE DOWN
|> Seasonal $250/season Daily $10/day
|> Open 45/month Rigging charge 10
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good Heavens! I didn't think even a commercial operation would
charge you to help put your wings on. I guess I have been too long in
the club enviornment where the "you help me - I help you" method
prevails.
The rates you mention seem about par for a commercial operation. I
strongly recommend that if you find you like soaring, then find a
club and join. Depending on how much you fly, you can save a LOT of
money. And also have a lot more fun.
Guy Byars (11)
Jer/ Eberhard
> I'm a glider pilot wannabe. I had planned to take the
> Seymour accelerated ground school at Bradley Airport
> Instead, I paid a visit to the only commercial soaring
> operation I'm aware of in Connecticut, Connecticut
> Soaring Center, in Plymouth, CT.
Jim,
For a commercial operation, the rates are reasonable.
However... If you EVER want to fly an airplane, I recommend
that you get your power ticket first, then your glider ticket.
Reason: cost!
To get a glider ticket then a power ticket costs:
A glider ticket will cost 40 hours of ground instruction + 20 hours of
flight instruction + 20 hours of glider time/tows + a written and
checkride.
A power ticket will cost 40 hours of ground instruction + 20 hours of
flight instruction + 40 hours of airplane time + a written and
checkride.
To get a power ticket, then a glider ticket costs:
A power transition to gliders costs (after a power ticket) about 10
hours of glider time + a checkride. You save 40 hours of ground
instruction and 10 hours of flight instruction and 10 hours of glider
time/tows and -->don't have to take the written exam again <--!
Moshe (of rec.aviation fame) discusses the costs of soaring in
the following posting.
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
> From: bra...@trantor.emba.uvm.edu (Moshe Braner)
> Subject: Re: soaring popularity
> Summary: soaring is darn expensive
> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1992 19:53:53 GMT
Here in the US soaring in most sites truly is more expensive than
powered flying. Typical rental rates for a small powered plane are
around $50/hr. Typical commercial soaring rates seem to be around
$20-25 or more for the tow plus $15-20 or more per hour. If you ALWAYS
choose the good times to tow and stay up for hours, you win. But in the
real world you will have many shorter flights, bringing up the average
cost. I am a member at Sugarbush so I don't pay for ship time, but
their tow rates are commercial. Despite my efforts to fly only on the
good days, I ended up paying $53 per hour this season. That includes
some money for instruction, but does not include the large annual
membership fee. Since I flew only on good days I didn't fly a whole
lot, thus the annual fee adds another $27 per hour! Costs were MUCH
lower (less than half!) where I flew before (Harris Hill), which is a
true club, but that kind of place is hard to find. Owning my own
glider, besides being extremely expensive (a decent fiberglass glider
costs as much as, or more than, a modest powered plane), would still
leave me with paying the same or higher tow rates.
For comparison, it costs me about $9 in fuel (autogas) to fly my Cessna
an hour, including all maintenance it is only about $20/hour. Including
the fixed costs (insurance, annual, etc) it is still only $30/hour for
me, since the lower cost lets me fly more often. In desperation I have
even tried to soar in the Cessna on occasion. It is a lousy glider :-)
But flying it when and where I want to lets me explore atmospheric
conditions (not to mention geographical areas) that I don't get to in a
glider. And I can fly it year round, all over the US, with no hassles.
No wonder most pilots find powered flying more attractive.
I conclude that soaring is too expensive, the question is why. One
might say that soaring costs as it should, but powered flying is too
cheap in the US. Fuel certainly is subsidized in the US, it sells well
below its true cost to society, which is 2--3 times higher. (I'm gonna
get flamed for this...) But that is no answer. We need to find ways to
reduce the cost of soaring if we are to recruit new soaring pilots. In
my view, ground launch (or self launch) of domestically produced gliders
is the solution. And the gliders should be designed for economy of
manufacturing rather than all-out performance in competition conditions.
-Moshe
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moshe Braner bra...@emily.emba.uvm.edu
47 McGee Road, Essex, VT 05452 (802) 879-0876
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jer/
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, j...@fc.hp.com, Jer_Eb...@fc.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard SWT, 3404 East Harmony Road MS-298, Ft Collins, CO 80525-9599
Phone 303 229-2861, FAX 303 229-3598, 6UR6, Incoming 40 44.1N x 105 33.0W
NOFZD, Civil Air Patrol, Pikes Peak 218, MSN Check Pilot, CFI Airplane & Glider
Steve Peltz
>However... If you EVER want to fly an airplane, I recommend
>that you get your power ticket first, then your glider ticket.
>
>Reason: cost!
Of course, it depends on the circumstances. I would have said the major
objection is time, not money.
>A glider ticket will cost 40 hours of ground instruction + 20 hours of
>flight instruction + 20 hours of glider time/tows + a written and
>checkride.
Or 0 hours of (formal) ground instruction, 10-15 hours of flight
instruction, 7.5 additional solo hours, 50-80 tows, a written and a
checkride. A lot of our ground instruction gets done while waiting
around at the field. Our club is on the inexpensive side, so if you got
that done in a year it could cost around $1400 to $1700 ($775 for dues
for a year, $12 for a 2K tow).
>A power ticket will cost 40 hours of ground instruction + 20 hours of
>flight instruction + 40 hours of airplane time + a written and
>checkride.
You'll probably end up with less instruction time required with the
glider rating: a) most student pilots don't get the license with the
minimum required time; the glider experience should reduce the amount
of extra time you need to put in to get the necessary proficiency; b)
some of the glider flight time, and some of the glider flight
instruction time, is applicable to a power rating. Depending on how
much it costs for an hour of flight instruction, you could save a
significant amount of money.
>A power transition to gliders costs (after a power ticket) about 10
>hours of glider time + a checkride.
For a current power pilot with a couple of hundred hours, my experience
has been that it takes 5-10 flights to solo. Another 10 solo flights, a
couple of pre-checkride flights with an instructor, and a checkride
gets the rating. That would come out to around $500 at our club.
So, you save about $1000 off getting the glider rating. To save that
much off a power rating you'd only need to cut out about 13 hours of
flight instruction (at $75/hour for flight time+instructor). I think
having the glider experience could easily do that. In addition, you
may understand a lot more about what you're learning than you would
have if you hit the power training cold.
>-->don't have to take the written exam again <--!
That saves you $25 and a few hours. Ok, maybe for some they're
excruciating hours, but I've never understood why it is such a big
deal...
It all boils down to your circumstances, time constraints, and local costs
of both kinds of flying. If your only soaring opportunities are with
commercial operations, or if you know someone who will give you free
flight instruction and you pay gas+oil in his Cub, you'll come to quite
different conclusions than I demonstrated above.
BTW, I got my power rating first.
Bruce Hoult
> Here are the rates, from their brochure (standard disclaimers):
>
> SAILPLANE RENTAL PER HOUR: Minimum 15 minutes per flight
> Grob G103 $45 Schweizer 1-26 $28
> Grob G102 35 Schweizer 2-33 38
> Grob G103A 55
>
> AERO TOW CHARGES: Minimum tow altitude 1500 feet
> 1500 ft $20 3000 ft $30
> 2000 ft 25 Over 3000 ft: $2/100 ft
> 2500 ft 27 Rope break: 15
>
> INSTRUCTION
> Primary $30
> Advanced 35
> Aerobatic 50
That's incredible! What would make anyone fly gliders with those prices?
Here in Wellington, New Zealand, the local club charges are (US$ at 0.54 xrate):
SAILPLANE RENTAL PER HOUR: 1 minute units
Blanik L-13 (three of), Ka6CR, : $14.50/hr first hour, then
Club Libelle 205, Std Libelle 201: $ 9.75/hr remainder of flight
Janus : $24.30/hr first hour, then
: $ 9.75/hr remainder of flight
AERO TOW CHARGES:
160hp Super Cub : $ 1.30/minute
180hp Super Cub : $ 1.60/minute
INSTRUCTION : $ free
MEMBERSHIP : $100/year
SPECIAL SCHEMES:
Winter Usage Incentive: pay $70 ($108 to incl Janus) up front, then fly club gliders
at $5.20/hr from 1st Jun to 1st Dec.
Pre-paid to Solo Scheme: pay $810 in two installments. Includes joining fee, one year's
membership and all gliders/tows to solo (45 flights max).
Intensive Training Scheme: pay $430 for a one week (Mon thru Sat) course including all the
flying you can eat (guaranteed minimum of 18 flights). Three
students/course. (The instructor will usually take vacation
time to hold the course)
My average cost since converting to single-seaters in October has been just over $15/hour
for 31 hours in 27 flights (1h10m average flight, longest 5h31m).
I tend to think that I'm paying too much for my flying, but it's sure a lot cheaper than
the numbers you're quoting! And the club is currently raking in the money, building up a
fund to buy our own airfield if (as we're afraid will happen) we lose the use of our
current field in 2000 when our lease expires.
Maybe some of you americans should come on a "learn to glide" vacation in New Zealand?
Ron Gaynier
|>
|> 1500 ft $20 3000 ft $30
|> 2000 ft 25 Over 3000 ft: $2/100 ft
|> 2500 ft 27 Rope break: 15
???????????????????????????
Is this common? To commericial gliding organisations really charge you
for a rope break during an AERO TOW? I realise a rope break could be
the fault of the glider pilot, but the only rope breaks I have seen have
been because of old ropes.
|> TIE DOWN
|> Seasonal $250/season Daily $10/day
|> Open 45/month Rigging charge 10
|> Trailer 20/month
What is a rigging charge? If I keep my glider in the box and pay
$20/month, do I still pay an additional $10 each time I rig it?
I'll be moving back to the USA soon after 4 years of glider heaven
in Australia. Please tell me these charges aren't common.
Ron Gaynier
guy byars
|>
|> [...] Commercial pricing info deleted
|>
|> That's incredible! What would make anyone fly gliders with those prices?
|>
|>
|> Here in Wellington, New Zealand, the local club charges are (US$ at 0.54 xrate):
|>
|
|>
|> Maybe some of you americans should come on a "learn to glide" vacation in New Zealand?
Make sure you are not comparing apples & oranges. You are comparing your CLUB rates to those
of a COMMERCIAL operation. There is a BIG difference between the two and of course the prices
will be quite different. For example, a commercial operation usually hires and pays tow pilots
and instructors. While in most clubs those positions are filled by volunteering club members. Also
the operators of the Commercial operation have to support themselves from the operation. Something a
club doesn't have to do.
The American club to which I belong has prices the same or less than yours. So please don't
think that ALL soaring in the USA costs that much.
Guy Byars (11)
em...@cas.org
Rope break charges certainly apply in simulated training.
Keystone Gliderport charges the minimum tow to 2000 ft for a
training rope break at 200 feet, and they insist you get it
right before you go solo at the field. Find a good club!
Erica Scurr (em...@cas.org)
Richard Larsen P220
Carolina Soaring IN N.C. Tow to 3,000' costs $19.00
and rental for a 1-26 or 2-33 is $28.00 per hour.
Bruce Hoult
> Make sure you are not comparing apples & oranges. You are comparing your CLUB rates to those
> of a COMMERCIAL operation.
Yes I know. I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that many or most people in the US
are essentially forced to use a commercial operation.
> The American club to which I belong has prices the same or less than yours. So please don't
> think that ALL soaring in the USA costs that much.
I'm relieved to hear it.
While I'm here: can anyone tell me what would be required if I wanted to fly a glider next
time I'm in the USA?
I'm a fairly new glider pilot, but on reflection probably have the equivalent to a PPL. We
don't have gliding PPL's in New Zealand as you do in the US, but I've got 50 hours PIC (70
total) have converted to all the club's single-seaters, am cross-country rated in the
Blanik, Ka6 and Club Libelle, and am front-seat passenger rated.
Would presentation of my logbook, "C" badge, NZGA membership card, and a check flight be
sufficient to allow me to fly gliders at your club?
Chuck Shotton
(Bruce Hoult) wrote:
> Would presentation of my logbook, "C" badge, NZGA membership card, and a check flight be
> sufficient to allow me to fly gliders at your club?
Nope, at the very minimum you'd need a FAA student pilot's certificate and
appropriate log book endorsements from a CFIG. (to fly solo, that is.)
guy byars
|> Would presentation of my logbook, "C" badge, NZGA membership card, and a check flight be
|> sufficient to allow me to fly gliders at your club?
The main problem with that is that most clubs' insurance policys only cover
club members. You would probably have to join the club in order to fly their
gliders. And given the initiation fee that many clubs have, if you just want a
few flights, it may be cheaper to pay the (astronomical) commercial rates.
Martin John Gregory
It is interesting to hear American pilots lament the cost of gliding
in the USA. Here in Australia, gliding is by FAR the cheapest way to
learn to fly. One large contribution is the cost of fuel here: 3-4
times the price. However, another reason is the CLUB SYSTEM.
In article (Jer/ Eberhard) writes (or quotes) :
> [...]
>Here in the US soaring in most sites truly is more expensive than
>powered flying. Typical rental rates for a small powered plane are
>around $50/hr. Typical commercial soaring rates seem to be around
>$20-25 or more for the tow plus $15-20 or more per hour. If you ALWAYS
>choose the good times to tow and stay up for hours, you win. But in the
>real world you will have many shorter flights, bringing up the average
>cost. I am a member at Sugarbush so I don't pay for ship time, but
>their tow rates are commercial. Despite my efforts to fly only on the
>good days, I ended up paying $53 per hour this season.
> [...not to mention the cost of an instructor ...]
>No wonder most pilots find powered flying more attractive.
>
>I conclude that soaring is too expensive, the question is why.
> [...]
>We need to find ways to reduce the cost of soaring if we are to
>recruit new soaring pilots.
The key difference that I felt when I visited the USA and attempted to
soar was the lack of any soaring clubs. I visited the San Franciso
area, and only by sheer luck (and friendliness of the members) chanced
upon the AMES soaring club while flying out of the commerical glider
port at Truckee.
This was an isolated find however. Mostly I encountered sites where
my flying was paying lots of people's wages and rent. This made
gliding too expensive, and less fun.
In a club, economy is achieved through voluntary labour. A side effect
is fun and friendship. In Australia you would be laughed off the
field if you tried to charge someone for instruction (except I hope
we'd be more polite than that!). Here instruction and a vast amount
of the maintenance is done by volunteers who enjoy doing it. This
factor alone instantly cuts heaps off the cost of learning to fly
gliders. But you can also operate a club out of a paddock with a
winch, as we do. $4.75 Aus ($us 3.50?) for a launch, $25/hr ($US17?)
glider hire, no charge for instruction, $200 membership per year is
pretty good.
Whats more, for that you get a whole day's entertainment for your
money each time you go out. If you spend say $60 and have two hour
flights you dont say `sheesh - $30/hour - this is expensive
entertainment`, because you were out there driving winches, repairing
fences, sanding gliders etc the whole day and had a beer at the end.
This would be a substantial change in attitude for some pilots I met
in the USA, who rock up at the site when they want to fly, go off and
have a ball at great expense, then leave straight after, letting
`someone else` put the glider away. You can have this lifestyle if
you can afford it, but there is an alternative...
I hope this doesn't sound too critical: I met lots of great folk
flying in the USA, and the system there works for them, but if you
want cheaper flying, something has to change. I would be interested
to hear whether my experience was `isolated` and if in fact there are
lots of clubs scattered around the USA that I just missed due to my
location.
There are other global issues to do with the expense of gliding -
flying `hot ships` is one. The sooner the World Class glider is up
and being produced locally around the world, and people expect to
compete in it, doing tasks appropriate to it, the sooner the price of
gliding will come down!
Cheers,
Bruce Hoult
> In article <28213...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz>, Br...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz
> (Bruce Hoult) wrote:
> > Would presentation of my logbook, "C" badge, NZGA membership card, and a check flight be
> > sufficient to allow me to fly gliders at your club?
>
> Nope, at the very minimum you'd need a FAA student pilot's certificate
Would a NZ student pilot license be accepted as equivalent?
> and appropriate log book endorsements from a CFIG. (to fly solo, that is.)
That would result from the check flight I mentioned, wouldn't it?
Bruce Hoult
> The main problem with that is that most clubs' insurance policys only cover
> club members. You would probably have to join the club in order to fly their
> gliders. And given the initiation fee that many clubs have, if you just want a
> few flights, it may be cheaper to pay the (astronomical) commercial rates.
NZ clubs offer special short term memberships for overseas visitors that cover
insurance without being prohibitivly expensive. Also, I think most club's
insurance allows anyone who is a member of the NZGA to fly their gliders, although
I can't say for sure, not having yet flown solo in another club's gliders.
A few weekends ago I visited another club and did five flights off the winch in
their Ka7 (I'd never launched by winch before). The Chief Instructor said if I
came back another day and did a few more flights I should be able to solo. He
sure didn't mention anything about having to join their club.
Mike Cohler
>guy byars writes:
>> The main problem with that is that most clubs' insurance policys only cover
>> club members. You would probably have to join the club in order to fly their
>> gliders. And given the initiation fee that many clubs have, if you just want a
>> few flights, it may be cheaper to pay the (astronomical) commercial rates.
>
>NZ clubs offer special short term memberships for overseas visitors that cover
>insurance without being prohibitivly expensive. Also, I think most club's
>insurance allows anyone who is a member of the NZGA to fly their gliders, although
In the UK we also have 'reciprocal' arrangements, so that effectively, ANY
visiting glider pilot from "anywhere" can take out a 1 DAY membership for
5 pounds sterling, and fly our club's gliders after a site check ride, and
depending on their previous record, and the site check can then fly our
club aircraft solo. It seems that this just doesnt happen in the USA,
and at a club you have to pay the FULL initiation fee, and at least several
months membership in order to fly solo. It seems pretty ridiculous to me,
unless most clubs already have such a huge oversubscrion of members that
even allowing a single visitor access to one glider for an hour or two would
"force" their own pilots out of a flight ] I am sure that many clubs would
be happy to take the launch fee and the hire cost of a glider, if they
could organise themselves to get a similar visitor cover that we in the UK
have as pretty standard at most gliding clubs. Mind you the idea of a pure
commercial gliding operation anything like the USA commercial outfits just
doesnt exist in the UK at all.
We have indeed had an American visitor take a check ride and then fly our
gliders at our own club rates after paying his 5 pounds "day" membership.
I shall be flying across the states this August/September and as a result
of my enquiries will have to drop in exclusively to commercial soaring
operations if I want to fly solo... what a shame ]
I would have loved to fly at a "club", and my partner and I would have been
only too happy to help out with the normal pushing, and logging and whatever
is required but it seems that no-one will have us at a "club" on that basis,
and allow us to fly their aircraft solo on a short term visit. Of course,
if you know otherwise, then I would be delighted to hear from you via this
forum or email. My route this summer will be starting in Toronto, and then a
rapid transit south west towards the "west of the USA" but including parts
of Colorado, Idaho, Arizona, Nevada, California and then returning to
Toronto via a different route.
Maybe someone can show me that the USA soaring "clubs" will have a visitor
as a solo pilot. BY the way, my partner and I are both instructors, so
I am sure we can demonstrate that we can be trusted with a glider, by having
a check ride ]
Mike
==============================================================
! !
! Mike Cohler - preferred email address: !
! MD...@VAXA.YORK.AC.UK !
! ie MDC1%VAXA.YO...@UKACRL.BITNET !
! !
! UK PPL and Gliding Instructor !
! !
==============================================================
Daniel M. Ladd
of soaring in the U.S. as compared with power flying. I could not
let this pass. I will compare my cost per flight hour with ANY
power pilot in the U.S. Some of you will whine that my case is
unusual, but I submit that with sufficient experience, your cost
per flight hour could become as low. Now for specifics:
I own my own sailplane which I bought in 1982 for $16000, a PIK20B.
At that time the glider had 500hrs total time. It now has 3100hrs
and has a market value in the range of $20k. I fly mostly from
a commercial operation (Sky Sailing at Warner Springs, CA). I
average 65-70 tows per year with a flight time of about 230hrs/year.
Most tows are to 1500ft (the minimum tow at Sky Sailing, although
I often get off lower). I have not towed above 2000ft in the last
5 years (except for several aero retrieves from unscheduled landings
at other airports). Direct costs per year are as follows:
70 tows @ avg $19.00/tow = $1330 (1500' tow is $19.00 - 10% for
advance payment in $300 blocks.
I can't remember how much a 2000'
tow is)
insurance $650
tie down @ $20/mo. $240
prop. tax on aircraft $150
annual inspection $100
parachute repacks 3 @ $35 $105
misc. supplies (tape,
canopy cleaner, maps, oxygen)$150
avg. 1 aero retrieve/yr. $80
biennial flight review (100/2)$50
------
$2855 or $12.41/flight hour
Other costs which are less tangible or difficult to figure on a
yearly basis are:
Loss of investment income due to tied up capital (maybe $600-700/yr
after taxes?). Cost of driving to the airport. Capital improvements
to the aircraft (I have upgraded the instruments several times).
Contest entry fees, which I don't feel should be included in the
above cost analysis, and unscheduled maintenance which in my case
has been almost minuscule (the finish is still good, and there is
very little else to go wrong!).
Anyway you look at it I'm still well below the $20/hr mark. How many
power pilots out there can say that?
Dan Ladd
la...@nosc.mil
PIK 20B (8N)
Kevin Ford
>In article <28213...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz>, Br...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz (Bruce Hoult) writes...
>>guy byars writes:
>>> The main problem with that is that most clubs' insurance policys only cover
>>> club members. You would probably have to join the club in order to fly their
>>> gliders. And given the initiation fee that many clubs have, if you just want a
>>> few flights, it may be cheaper to pay the (astronomical) commercial rates.
>>
>>NZ clubs offer special short term memberships for overseas visitors that cover
>>insurance without being prohibitivly expensive. Also, I think most club's
>In the UK we also have 'reciprocal' arrangements, so that effectively, ANY
>visiting glider pilot from "anywhere" can take out a 1 DAY membership for
>5 pounds sterling, and fly our club's gliders after a site check ride, and
>depending on their previous record, and the site check can then fly our
>club aircraft solo. It seems that this just doesnt happen in the USA,
One club that does offer short term memberships to visiting pilots is
Air Sailing, Nevada. For $30 and a check flight you get a 30-day
membership, and can fly all of the club ships solo at regular club
rates. Air Sailing is located 25 miles north of Reno, and has some of
the best soaring weather anywhere. They fly 2-33, 1-26 and 1-36
sailplanes. For more information, call Vern at 702-825-1125.
Many clubs I've seen have high initial fees, but relatively small flying
fees (our club charges $10 for a 2K tow, and no hourly fee). A second
rate structure could be set up to allow visitors to fly without
mortgaging their kids. More clubs here (including mine) should adopt
such policies.
Kevin Ford
fo...@symcom.math.uiuc.edu
Ron Gaynier
I was in the USA recently and, though I didn't get to fly, I did look into
the requirements. I was told by an instructor at one soaring site that I would
need an FAA endorsement but that the endorsement would be based on my
Australian qualifications. I asked if there would be any kind of testing
involved and was told "no". I asked, "Is it just a rubber stamp?" and I
was told "yes". I didn't follow it up any further since I only had two
days near a soaring site and the weather was lousy anyway.
I have several Australian gliding friends who have flown in the USA and
none of them has mentioned ever having any problems. There are reciprical
agreements between most countries to allow pilots from one country to
fly in the other.
Of course any place you go is going to give you a check flight and a
site briefing.
Ron Gaynier
Del Armstrong
> Jim Kearman (jkea...@arrl.org) wrote:
> > I'm a glider pilot wannabe. I had planned to take the
>
> that you get your power ticket first, then your glider ticket.
>
> Reason: cost!
>
Jer/ then goes on to point out that if you get your power ticket
first, the overall cost of getting a power+glider ticket is
substantially lower then if you get your glider rating first.
He's absolutely correct, and for most people, getting their ratings in
that order is the right thing to do. However I chose to get my ratings
in the opposite order, despite the fact that I quickly realized it
would be more expensive that way. There were two main reasons I went
the way I did:
- Cost! :-) At least in the club we have here, the glider rating is
definitely cheaper then a power rating at a local FBO. When I started,
I could swing the glider rating, but I'd have had to wait if I wanted
to start with the power rating. It made sense for me to start flying
what I could afford, and worry about the more expensive stuff when I
could better afford it (even at a higher overall cost).
- I also took into account the type of flying I wanted to do. I wanted
to fly just for fun, not as a convenient way to travel. To me, this
meant that I wanted to emphasize basic stick and rudder skills early
in my training. I believe that the (flying) habits learned first are
the ones you learn most strongly. I felt that the skills that flying a
glider emphasizes would provide the foundation for a long and
enjoyable flying career.
I was also attracted by the learning environment, the camaraderie and
shared purpose that a soaring club provides. I felt that a soaring
club better addressed these needs then the power FBO's I was aware of
in my area.
Note: I'm well aware that if I had started with my power ticket, I
could have learned excellent stick and rudder skills as well. It's
just that with power you have so much else to also learn, whereas in
the glider that's your primary focus.
Del Armstrong
de...@ee.rochester.edu rutgers!ur-valhalla!dela (716)275-5342
Computing and Networking Group, College of Engineering
University of Rochester, Rochester, NY
Steve Peltz
>I was in the USA recently and, though I didn't get to fly, I did look into
>the requirements. I was told by an instructor at one soaring site that I would
>need an FAA endorsement but that the endorsement would be based on my
>Australian qualifications. I asked if there would be any kind of testing
>involved and was told "no". I asked, "Is it just a rubber stamp?" and I
>was told "yes".
The earlier question was whether someone without a license from another
country would be allowed to fly here. I don't think the FAA would accept
a "C" badge as the basis for a US License. Thus the response that he would
need to get a student license is probably accurate.
Note that there are no minimum requirements* to fly solo, so an instructor
could sign you off after one or two check flights (which would also be an
area orientation). You would not be able to take up a passenger in that
case.
* There ARE minimum areas of knowledge and skill that the instructor must
certify you have, but it shouldn't be much of a problem to demonstrate them
all in one or two flights if, indeed, your experience is equivalent to that
needed to get a US PPL.
off on
bob gibbons
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I shall be flying across the states this August/September and as a result
of my enquiries will have to drop in exclusively to commercial soaring
operations if I want to fly solo... what a shame !
I would have loved to fly at a "club", and my partner and I would have been
only too happy to help out with the normal pushing, and logging and whatever
is required but it seems that no-one will have us at a "club" on that basis,
and allow us to fly their aircraft solo on a short term visit. Of course,
if you know otherwise, then I would be delighted to hear from you via this
forum or email. My route this summer will be starting in Toronto, and then a
rapid transit south west towards the "west of the USA" but including parts
of Colorado, Idaho, Arizona, Nevada, California and then returning to
Toronto via a different route.
Maybe someone can show me that the USA soaring "clubs" will have a visitor
as a solo pilot. BY the way, my partner and I are both instructors, so
I am sure we can demonstrate that we can be trusted with a glider, by having
a check ride !
Texas Soaring Association (TSA) south of Dallas, Texas has a visiting
pilot program. They also have every August a soaring camp whereby
visiting pilots can have an intensive 2 week soaring camp complete with
instructors (last year imported from England) and the use of club ships.
I believe the arrangement was that you paid the club initiation fee of
about $200 and this was used to pay for tows and ship rental (low cost),
whatever was left over at the end of your stay was returned.
If you are interested, I will inquire further. BTW, I do not fly at TSA
but at a commercial operation on the northeast side of Dallas.
--
Bob Gibbons Texas Instruments
Internet: r...@delphi.dseg.ti.com Dallas, TX
Ron Gaynier
|> In article <C7pLD...@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au> gay...@s1.elec.uq.oz.au (Ron Gaynier) writes:
|> >I was in the USA recently and, though I didn't get to fly, I did look into
|> >the requirements. I was told by an instructor at one soaring site that I would
|> >need an FAA endorsement but that the endorsement would be based on my
|> >Australian qualifications. I asked if there would be any kind of testing
|> >involved and was told "no". I asked, "Is it just a rubber stamp?" and I
|> >was told "yes".
|>
|> The earlier question was whether someone without a license from another
|> country would be allowed to fly here.
Perhaps you misunderstand the situation. Not all countries issue a "license"
to glider pilots. I'm an instructor here in OZ and I have no "license" per se,
I do have logbook endorsements which say what the Gliding Federation of Australia,
and therefore the Civil Aviation Administration (Australian FAA), think I'm capable
of. New Zealand is the same.
|> I don't think the FAA would accept
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> a "C" badge as the basis for a US License. Thus the response that he would
|> need to get a student license is probably accurate.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please don't consider this a flame, well I guess it is a small one but no
malice is intended, we still don't know for sure yet do we?
Here in Australia the "C" certificate has a different meaning and different
requirements to obtain it. Here it is the gliding equivalent of a PPL.
|> Note that there are no minimum requirements* to fly solo, so an instructor
|> could sign you off after one or two check flights (which would also be an
|> area orientation). You would not be able to take up a passenger in that
|> case.
The whole reason I wanted to fly when I was in the USA was to take a friend
as a passenger. The instructor I spoke with had no objections provided I a) took
a check flight and b) got the FAA "rubber stamp".
Does anyone know for sure what the FAA "rubber stamp" is, and what they would
expect to see from visiting glider pilots?
Ron Gaynier
Phil Laird
In a previous article, Br...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz (Bruce Hoult) says:
>That's incredible! What would make anyone fly gliders with those prices?
I have to agree... $30 (US, no less) for a tow is rather steep... you
could rent an aircraft for .5 hours for that much...
>
>Here in Wellington, New Zealand, the local club charges are (US$ at 0.54 xrate):
>
>AERO TOW CHARGES:
>160hp Super Cub : $ 1.30/minute
>180hp Super Cub : $ 1.60/minute
Do you charge that rate for Towplane air time or tow time?
>INSTRUCTION : $ free
Same up here.
>MEMBERSHIP : $100/year
>
>
>SPECIAL SCHEMES:
>
>Winter Usage Incentive: pay $70 ($108 to incl Janus) up front, then fly club gliders
> at $5.20/hr from 1st Jun to 1st Dec.
Must be nice to be able to glide in winter :-(
>
>Maybe some of you americans should come on a "learn to glide" vacation in New Zealand?
Or Canada :-)
--
Phil Laird
ab...@freenet.carleton.ca
Jer/ Eberhard
>> In article <C7Jqw...@fc.hp.com>, j...@fc.hp.com (Jer/ Eberhard) writes:
>> first, the overall cost of getting a power+glider ticket is
>> substantially lower then if you get your glider rating first.
> He's absolutely correct, and for most people, getting their ratings in
> that order is the right thing to do. However I chose to get my ratings
> in the opposite order, despite the fact that I quickly realized it
> would be more expensive that way. There were two main reasons I went
> the way I did:
And I agree that Del did the absolutely correct thing for him. Most
folks aren't as together as Del and need some more information to make
an informed choice. Del had the information and made a great choice.
He got to fly! Good work Del!
> - Cost! :-) At least in the club we have here, the glider rating is
> definitely cheaper then a power rating at a local FBO.
Yes, at the right club, it can be down-right cheap! (relatively for
aviation). Most people don't have the "right club" nearby.
> I was also attracted by the learning environment, the cameraderie and
> shared purpose that a soaring club provides. I felt that a soaring
> club better addressed these needs then the power FBO's I was aware of
> in my area.
Right on! This is one of the best aspects of the soaring community.
I'm still of the opinion that we need much more cross-pollination of the
soaring and power communities. We will all be better for it!
Bruce Hoult
> >AERO TOW CHARGES:
> >160hp Super Cub : $ 1.30/minute
> >180hp Super Cub : $ 1.60/minute
>
> Do you charge that rate for Towplane air time or tow time?
That's start of takeoff roll to towplane touchdown.
> >Winter Usage Incentive: pay $70 ($108 to incl Janus) up front, then fly club gliders
> > at $5.20/hr from 1st Jun to 1st Dec.
>
> Must be nice to be able to glide in winter :-(
Yep. There wasn't much going on today in the way of lift, but I took two friends
for nice little sight-seeing/glider experience flights -- 4000' tow, and a 30 minute
drift down. I was able to circle over the husband's parent's house, then cruise
around the edges of a cloud (and underneath for a while), then back to the airfield
via the local ridges with just enough reduced sink rate to delay the inevitable for
five or ten minutes.
Last week had a good ridge day, and I was able to take three friends for an hour
each, getting to 4500 ft six or seven miles from the field, then dropping down and
screaming back along the ridges. It's pretty good when you can maintain height at
80 knots in a Blanik!
Ridge and wave are about all we'll get until October or so, when the thermals will
start up again.
-- Bruce
Phil Laird
In a previous article, Br...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz (Bruce Hoult) says:
>Phil Laird replies to me:
>> >AERO TOW CHARGES:
>> >160hp Super Cub : $ 1.30/minute
>> >180hp Super Cub : $ 1.60/minute
>>
>> Do you charge that rate for Towplane air time or tow time?
>
>That's start of takeoff roll to towplane touchdown.
>
Then your rates are very close to ours I would imagine... I suppose
traffic cloud cause somewhat of a problem for you if the towplane has to
overshoot and go around for a glider on the runway and what not.
>> Must be nice to be able to glide in winter :-(
>
>Ridge and wave are about all we'll get until October or so, when the thermals will
>start up again.
Of course, it is summer here and the thermals are getting good :-)
--
Phil Laird
ab...@freenet.carleton.ca
Bruce Hoult
> >That's start of takeoff roll to towplane touchdown.
> >
> Then your rates are very close to ours I would imagine... I suppose
> traffic cloud cause somewhat of a problem for you if the towplane has to
> overshoot and go around for a glider on the runway and what not.
Luckily we have a wide field and this is an extremely rare occurance. In
particular, the towplane has it's own landing lane that gliders use only
in emergencies.
Richard Carlson
|> In article <C7Jqw...@fc.hp.com>, j...@fc.hp.com (Jer/ Eberhard) writes:
|> > Jim Kearman (jkea...@arrl.org) wrote:
|> > > I'm a glider pilot wannabe. I had planned to take the
|> >
|> > However... If you EVER want to fly an airplane, I recommend
|> >
|> >
I transitioned from gliders to airplanes and I never regreted it for an instant. As for the
costs; I soloed in 3 hrs in a C-152. I did 2 X-countries with my instructor (one at night
and he fell asleep on the last leg). I did 7 Hrs of solo x-country in the C-152 and used my
silver distance flight (during which I got lost and flew 60 miles) for the remaining 3 Hrs.
FAR 61.109 says: 20 Hrs flight instruction including 3 Hr x-country, 3 Hr at night, and 3 Hr
in preparation for the flight test. So you could do a 3 Hr x-country at night and meet 2 of
the 3 requirements in one flight. It also says you need 20 Hrs of solo with 10 Hrs in an
airplane. The remaining 10 Hrs could be in a glider (that 1/4 of your required flight time).
All in all I thought the SEL add-on was pretty cheap. (It did help that I was a CFIG with
500 Hrs TT) .-}
Flying can be very expensive. You either have to find a club (glider or airplane) or work
for the FBO if you want to reduce your costs.
Have fun and fly safe.
SGS 1-26B #307
--
Richard A Carlson email: RACa...@anl.gov
Computer Network Section X.400: /s=RACarlson/prmd=anl/admd=/c=us/
Argonne National Laboratory (708) 252-7289
9700 Cass Ave. S.
Argonne, IL 60439
Bruce Hoult
> I transitioned from gliders to airplanes and I never regreted it for an instant. As for the
> costs; I soloed in 3 hrs in a C-152.
I agree. ::crosschecks logbooks:: I soloed in a C152 after 2:15 in four flights with three
different instructors. At the time, I had 6:40 solo in gliders.
1: 30 mins. Effect of controls, striaight&level, C+D turns
2: 40 mins. Stalls
3: 35 mins. Circuits
4: 30 mins. Circuits with the Chief Instructor
After the third flight the guy said "You're ready for solo, but I can't authorise first solos
so you'll have to do another with the CFI". :-(
The thing that held me up the most in flying the 152 was learning all the darned checklists:
pre start, after start, runup, pre akeoff, downwind! I already knew the HASELL one, of
course. :-)
The gliding experience seems to be good for flying all types of aircraft. I haven't taken
my powered training much further (got to about eight hours solo before quitting), but in
the last year or so I've had the chance to get free rides in a few different aircraft and
have found that although they are all different they don't take long to get confident in:
Microlight
- jumped in and did a circuit.
Cessna Caravan (1500 Kg payload, turboprop single)
- several flights, including night and IMC (and both together). Approaches and
lands just like a bigger 172
Tiger Moth
- just like a powered Ka6 :-) Apparently power pilots have trouble with coordinating
the rudder and ailerons. The owner let me do a few touch-and-goes, but that's all --
he's real protective of his baby...
Piper Super Cub
- flew it from the back seat. Interesting, because I couldn't see the instruments.
A friend was practising touch-and-goes, so I didn't land it, but just tried the
handling in the circuit and local area.
Bell 212 Huey
- an interesting one. Overcontrolled pretty badly for the first five minutes, then
it "clicked". Took half a dozen attempts to get my first unassisted landing, but
that's partly because they were on a helipad on a pier. Interestingly, the first
good one was at night.
There's no way I'm any sort of a natural born super-pilot, but I think learning in
a glider really does help you to fly almost anything. The fairly neutral stability
forces you to fly the aircraft the whole time -- good for things like the Tiger Moth,
which is similar, and helps prepare for the unstable helicopter. Super stable things
like a Cessna are a doddle.
> Flying can be very expensive. You either have to find a club (glider or airplane) or work
> for the FBO if you want to reduce your costs.
... or find a friendly commercial pilot (preferably with an instructor rating) who can
take "passengers" while working :-)
Geoff Hugo
gay...@s1.elec.uq.oz.au writes:
>The whole reason I wanted to fly when I was in the USA was to take a
friend
>as a passenger. The instructor I spoke with had no objections provided I
a) took
>a check flight and b) got the FAA "rubber stamp".
>
>Does anyone know for sure what the FAA "rubber stamp" is, and what they
would
>expect to see from visiting glider pilots?
I flew in Hawaii last August at Soar Hawaii as a visiting Australian
pilot. I was able to take a friend as a passenger after a check flight
because I had already obtained my FAA "rubber stamp". To get this I had
to spend about 30 minutes at the FAA office at Honolulu airport. I
showed them my glider log book (200 hours), FAA C and silver C
certificates and Australian RPPL and was issued with a USA private pilot
licence valid for gliders on the basis of the glider documentation and
for aeroplanes based on my Australian RPPL. I am fairly certain they
would have issued me with a US PPL (gliders) on the basis of the glider
documents alone without the RPPL. They gave me a temporary licence
certificate over the counter and I received a permanent licence
certificate (valid indefinitely) by mail on return to Australia. They
didn't even charge anything to issue the licence (Australian CAA take
note!).
Geoff Hugo