Beringer Disc Brake Kit for Schemm-Hirth gliders - experience and effectiveness?

[WaltWX]

Can anyone recommend the Beringer disc brake kit for Ventus, Discus or Schemmp-Hirth gliders? I'm seriously considering retrofitting my D2A after a nearly disastrous run off the runway up at Ely ... partially due to fading brake (plenty of pilot error problems too...)

I'm especially interested in it's effectiveness to "... put the glider up on it's nose..." in cases of an emergency stop. Also, any issues or procedures for infield tire replacements.

Walt Rogers WX

[Dave Walsh]

At 20:29 14 October 2017, WaltWX wrote:
>Can anyone recommend the Beringer disc brake kit for
Ventus, Discus or

>Sche=

>mmp-Hirth gliders? I'm seriously considering retrofitting
my D2A after a

>ne=

>arly disastrous run off the runway up at Ely ... partially due
to fading

>br=

>ake (plenty of pilot error problems too...)
>
>I'm especially interested in it's effectiveness to "... put the
glider up

>o=

>n it's nose..." in cases of an emergency stop. Also, any
issues or

>procedur=

>es for infield tire replacements.
>
>Walt Rogers WX
>

Not quite on topic but I have a Beringer disk brake (standard
fit on the Antares 20E). The engineering is excellent, a joy to
behold and to work on, no problem with "on field"
maintenance, no special tools required. Factory is good to
deal with too. I'd assume their kit for SH gliders will be to
the same high standard. The only thing to remember is that
it apparently takes about 14 landings, using the brake
gently, to "bed-in" new disk/pads! This might be a problem if
you have to land-out before you've done 14 on-airfield
landings? Basically I'd recommend them.
Dave Walsh

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 4:29:58 PM UTC-4, WaltWX wrote:
> Can anyone recommend the Beringer disc brake kit...

Hi Walt - I also have the Beringer brake on Antares.
Biggest problem is it is too effective; despite limiter I once
managed to flat-spot the tire landing with the spoilers full aft.

Check the actuation in the kit for SH: no stretchy Bowden cables!!
IIRC its an on-tick master which should be fine.

Also note changing the (tubeless) tire is difficult in the field;
best to use the (inexpensive) tool from Beringer and watch the
fiddly O-rings.

Super high quality, great company to work with.

Hope that helps!
See ya, Dave

[markm...@gmail.com]

I installed the Beringer in my Pegasus and could not be happier with it. Excellent engineering and workmanship. Installation was easy. EASA approval for the logbook means no hassles with the FAA or an A&P or IA.

It has a pressure limiter (Think of it as antilock braking) so it won't actually stand the glider on its nose at any speed, but watch out as you get slow! I have rotated over until the nose hit the ground as the speed went to zero. And then the tail slams down and your buddies laugh at you.

Stopping distance is MUCH improved over the OEM drum brake or a Tost drum. Highly recommended.

No input on tire replacement.

[jpg...@gmail.com]

I have a Beringer wheel on a JS1 and it is a nice piece of kit and has worked and braked fine however, having had my eyes opened by helping a colleague to change the tyre on a colleague's Antares, I wouldn't get one again. If the tyre gets damaged and needs replaced you need to source the expensive 10 ply tubeless aviation tyre and need to have the tyre changing kit (plywood frames + metal spacer to compress the tyre) + lube + new O ring kit. I recently bought all that to take on an expedition to South Africa at total cost in UK over £350 and it took a few weeks to source separately. Without it if I burst a tyre I reckoned I would be stuck on the ground for a long time.

It's fine if you are aware of those aspects and have spares available or can wait to get them if a problem arises.

I would opt for a Tost Penta while which is lighter than standard Tost wheel system (but heavier than a Beringer) and has a hydraulic disc brake but takes normal tubed tyres.

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 6:31:13 PM UTC-4, jpg...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have a Beringer wheel on a JS1 and it is a nice piece of kit and has
> worked and braked fine however, having had my eyes opened by helping a
> colleague to change the tyre on a colleague's Antares, I wouldn't get one
> again. If the tyre gets damaged and needs replaced you need to source the
> expensive 10 ply tubeless aviation tyre and need to have the tyre changing
> kit (plywood frames + metal spacer to compress the tyre) + lube + new O
> ring kit. I recently bought all that to take on an expedition to South
> Africa at total cost in UK over £350 and it took a few weeks to source
> separately. Without it if I burst a tyre I reckoned I would be stuck
> on the ground for a long time.

I recommend a spare wheel with mounted tire; makes a simple swap
quick and easy (I travel with such). These tubeless tires are much less
likely to have a problem then tubed types, but again a field repair is
troublesome. Anyway, I highly recommend the Beringer product.

Hope that helps!
Walt, give me a ring if any further questions,
Best Regards, Dave

[Steven Shelton]

On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 4:29:58 PM UTC-4, WaltWX wrote:

> Can anyone recommend the Beringer disc brake kit for Ventus, Discus or Schemmp-Hirth gliders? I'm seriously considering retrofitting my D2A after a nearly disastrous run off the runway up at Ely ... partially due to fading brake (plenty of pilot error problems too...)
>
> I'm especially interested in it's effectiveness to "... put the glider up on it's nose..." in cases of an emergency stop. Also, any issues or procedures for infield tire replacements.
>

> Walt Rogers WXHello,


Monty of M&H was good enough to install a Beringer disc brake kit P/N STC-007 on my D2A a few years ago. Unfortunately I have not been able to fly the glider much since installation. What I can say is that the stopping power of the Beringer disk break to be about what you would expect compared to the four inch drum break, but not so much that I worry about putting the glider on it's nose. This may be because I have yet to properly condition the disk/pads. Proper conditioning requires around 20 landings according to their instructions. A lightweight pressure limiter can be purchased and installed in the hydraulic line should you need to limit the amount of force exerted by the brake calipers.

I believe the installation of the kit was straightforward with the exception that the fender and fender attachment point on the dampers had to be removed. In case you are unaware Berringer states " The kit is made only for Discus 2A with dampers on the landing gear. If you do not have dampers it is not possible to install the kit." The kit is delivered with an EASA Form 1. When asked, Beringer supplied us with a copy of EASA Supplemental Type Certificate 10041707 for my aircraft maintenance records.

I have not yet purchased a spare tire, required replacement o-ring or the Baringer tire changing tool but plan to do so when I begin flying regularly again. I do not want to be without them should I ever need them. I can't speak to the degree of difficulty in changing a tire on a Beringer rim because I have not yet done so but to me the process does not seem overly complicated if using the tire changing tool and appropriate torque wrench. The tire is from Aeroclassic and can be purchased from several vendors. Tire inflation is a healthy 5 bar/72 psi. On the whole I enjoy not having to deal with tire tubes and believe that a 10 PLY tire offers good protection against flats.

Be advised that according to their flight manual supplement installation of the kit reduces the maximum landing weight from 535 kg to 400 kg.

I was trained to land with minimal controllable energy and I strive to achieve that goal on every landing. Still, it is nice to know that now, when I squeeze the brake lever the glider will stop.

Any further questions please just ask and I'll be happy to try and answer them.

[jpg...@gmail.com]

A full spare Beringer wheel with mounted tyre as an essential? Seriously? At their prices? In the real world when there is an alternative option to get a disk brake it makes no sense to me. The Beringer wheel does look really cool 'thougn.

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 5:46:43 AM UTC-4, jpg...@gmail.com wrote:
> A full spare Beringer wheel with mounted tyre as an essential? Seriously?

If one has a flat at a contest grid, changing the tire would take too long.
Undoing the axle, caliper, and disc and swapping the mounted tire/rim is
relatively painless. Similarly, have a spare mounted tailwheel...

The tubeless tire is quite resilient, but Texas thorns are impressive too.

If you're not too concerned about missing a day, no spare required ;-)

See ya, Dave

[Dan Marotta]

Is there a Cleveland wheel, disk, and caliper that would work? They're
used all over general aviation.  I don't know for sure about the wheels
and disks, but my Stemme uses Cleveland calipers.  I'll be replacing the
pads next week for under $50 for four pads.

--
Dan, 5J

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

Possibly, but someone has to engineer the conversion, produce and supply parts and do the required work to generate "approved data", commonly done by STC.
Much better to pay for someone else to do this work.
UH

[markm...@gmail.com]

Dan- The Beringer is engineered specifically for the narrow landing gear fork found on sailplanes. The disk and caliper are mostly inside the wheel rim so adequate clearance is achieved. The Stemme has much more room, so a Cleveland wheel and caliper are fine in that application. There simply isn't enough space between the gear legs for a Cleveland.

[John Carlyle]

Wings & Wheels offer disc brake conversion kits for a number of makes of gliders. Here's the ad for Schempp-Hirth gliders: http://wingsandwheels.com/conversion-kit-schempp-hirth.html

I have no experience with these kits (and no connection to W&W). At one time I was considering modifying my LS8-18, but I've since found the factory brakes work well enough if you keep them adjusted properly.

-John, Q3

[Dan Marotta]

Thanks for the info, Mark.  I had Beringer brakes on my Pipistrel and
they worked great.

On 10/15/2017 8:42 AM, markm...@gmail.com wrote:
> Dan- The Beringer is engineered specifically for the narrow landing gear fork found on sailplanes. The disk and caliper are mostly inside the wheel rim so adequate clearance is achieved. The Stemme has much more room, so a Cleveland wheel and caliper are fine in that application. There simply isn't enough space between the gear legs for a Cleveland.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

System on W&W appears to be the exact caliper used on the Stemme.

--
Dan, 5J

[Juanman]

On an LS8 I had with (useless) Tost drum brakes I sent the wheel to Vintage Brake in CA to reline the drums and replace the shoes with good ones. After that it actually braked! Low cost solution for drum brakes.
Warning: if you want to do this mod send it soon because they get backed up with vintage motorcycles and they only do this work in Winter, after that they go racing!

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

You, or someone similar, posted the same site for new friction material.
If it was you, thanks again.

Not sure of any FAA implications using a different friction material, but yes, it can make a big difference.
Some sailplanes I have flown/dealt with, one hard braking event meant basically no brakes until "massaged". This could be skuffing the shoes, sanding the drums.
Again, one hard brake event, brakes were basically useless after that.
Wash, rinse, repeat......

Worst was a "band brake" against the tire (SGS-1-26), Tost brakes are a bit better, but I call them "toast brakes" since they seem to need work after a hard stop to maintain efficiency.

[James Thomson]

The Tost catalogue shows a range of retrofit kits for drum to disk
conversion, many with EASA or glider manufacturer approval. They
offer kits for S-H gliders in both 4" and 5" wheel form, and acknowledge
the space issues! No details are given on whose caliper is used, their
own or Cleveland, but I'm sure they will tell you if you ask.

[yellowp...@gmail.com]

The tubeless beringers on D2a's seemed to have repeated problems with flats in Australia at the worlds... unsure whether it was the heat or the thorns or both.

[Tango Whisky]

I have converted my Ventus from drum brake to disc brake. I had to chose between Béringer and the relatively new Tost Penta, and I took the latter:
- I'd rather not have a tubeless
- the Béringer kit is about 30% more expensive than the Penta kit
- I talked to S-H, and they rather install Penta than Béringer.

The Penta is about 50 grams more than the original drum braked wheel. Braking action is very good.

[Tim Taylor]

Is the Penta available for the D2a and V2a? In the USA right now the Tost is almost twice the cost of the Beringer wheel. Please let us know where you purchased the Tost Penta kit.

[Tango Whisky]

It certainly is available for the D2a and V2a. I purchased it directly from Tost in Germany. I think it was about 1500 Euros without the tire (didn't need to change it).

[raxy...@gmail.com]

Has anyone ever got a hydraulic Tost disk brake to work WELL on a Ventus 2CM? I'm convinced I've bled my brakes as well as they can be bled, and STILL the braking is very weak. I get some small braking action, but nowhere near being able to put the glider on its nose, or flat-spot the tire. I can slow down for a taxiway turn off, so long as its well ahead, but not enough to help on a short runway, or enough for a real emergency stop. I suspect the wire cable between the control stick and the cylinder under the seat must be stretching. I may try a thicker cable (I'm experimental).

[Tango Whisky]

You have an air bubble sitting in the system. Bleed from lower level upwards.

Been there, done that.

[raxy...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 18, 2017 at 2:19:13 PM UTC-7, Tango Whisky wrote:
> You have an air bubble sitting in the system. Bleed from lower level upwards.
>
> Been there, done that.

I've been there and done that too, and heard that same answer, many many times. Please look at my question and give me a reply.

[Tango Whisky]

I have a late Ventus cM which has the same 5" wheel than yours.
My brakenis working perfectly since I've got hold of that last bubble.

It's not witch work or rocket science. If you experience poor braking action, you DO have a bubble. If you can't fix it, get professional help.

[Dave Nadler]

On Wednesday, October 18, 2017 at 4:32:29 PM UTC-4, raxy...@gmail.com wrote:
> Has anyone ever got a hydraulic Tost disk brake to work WELL on a Ventus 2CM?

I had a 2CM some years back with same problem.
Its caused by light-weight stretchy bowden cable from brake handle
down to motorcycle actuator (complete with simulated handle-bar for mount).
You can easily test this on ground: block the actuator so it can't move,
then see how much you can squeeze the handle.
Replace both cable and housing!

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave

[Michael Opitz]

At 20:32 18 October 2017, raxy...@gmail.com wrote:
>Has anyone ever got a hydraulic Tost disk brake to work WELL on a
Ventus

>2C=

>M? I'm convinced I've bled my brakes as well as they can be bled,
and

>STILL=

> the braking is very weak. I get some small braking action, but
nowhere

>ne=

>ar being able to put the glider on its nose, or flat-spot the tire. I
can

>s=

>low down for a taxiway turn off, so long as its well ahead, but not
enough

>=

>to help on a short runway, or enough for a real emergency stop. I
suspect

>=

>the wire cable between the control stick and the cylinder under the
seat

>mu=

>st be stretching. I may try a thicker cable (I'm experimental).
>

I have a Discus-2b with the factory Tost 5" wheel also. We had real
problems bleeding all of the air out of the line. Biggo at the factory
even sent me a pdf file with pictures in order to do it correctly from
the bottom. It was a real bear to get all of the air out. Also,
adjusting the cable/brake handle so that there is no play helps a lot.
Finally, get a new brake pad even if the old one looks OK. The new
one will be thicker, so the caliper won't have to squeeze over as
great a distance to apply pressure. All of these items add up.

RO

[raxy...@gmail.com]

michael, can you post the pdf? I'm convinced I've done everything possible regarding bleeding, but still don't have good braking. So I don't expect it will help, but I'm desperate now. thanks.

[Craig Lowrie]

The HPH Shark gliders have a Berringer tubeless wheel with Disc brake.
Until recently, I was the UK agent and have imported ~30 gliders. None
have suffered from problems with the tubeless wheel over 6 years. I'm
not sure that gliders with tubes could post such a good record. Only one
glider which landed very heavily in soft ground had mud between the
tyre and the Rim and would slowly go down. I stripped the wheel and
cleaned it and it has been fine ever since. I have the special jig but have

to say that there is really no problem reassembling the wheel if you are
a practical type. If the O-Ring is undamaged, I think it can be lightly
greased and used again... I keep a spare just in case...

The Brake system is very good but must be free from air. I also suspect
that the overpressure regulator in the system can be responsible for
braking which is OK but not stunning.

I have fitted a Beringer system to a Pegase and that went really well and
provided a really good soluition... I have photos if anybody wants to
upgrade their glider... I don't know about the Tost solution...

Craig Lowrie, UK

[Dave Walsh]

At 07:51 19 October 2017, Craig Lowrie wrote:
>The HPH Shark gliders have a Berringer tubeless wheel
with Disc brake.
>Until recently, I was the UK agent and have imported ~30
gliders. None
>have suffered from problems with the tubeless wheel over
6 years. I'm
>not sure that gliders with tubes could post such a good
record. Only one
>glider which landed very heavily in soft ground had mud
between the
>tyre and the Rim and would slowly go down. I stripped the
wheel and
>cleaned it and it has been fine ever since. I have the
special jig but hav
>

>>> even sent me a pdf file with pictures in order to do it
correctly from
>>> the bottom. It was a real bear to get all of the air out.
Also,
>>> adjusting the cable/brake handle so that there is no
play helps a lot.
>
>>> Finally, get a new brake pad even if the old one looks
OK. The new
>>> one will be thicker, so the caliper won't have to squeeze
over as
>>> great a distance to apply pressure. All of these items
add up.
>>>
>>> RO
>>
>>michael, can you post the pdf? I'm convinced I've done
everything
>possible
>>regarding bleeding, but still don't have good braking. So I
don't expect
>it
>>will help, but I'm desperate now. thanks.

There's plenty of stuff on the internet about motorcycle guys
having trouble bleeding brake hydraulics (including
Behringer). In some cases they recommend physically
disconnecting the calliper and/or master cylinder and tipping
it (rotating it) so the the bleed nipple(s) is physically at the
highest part - then bleeding the system; then re-attaching.
Also if the hydraulic line between the cylinder and calliper
has even the slightest 'high point' a bubble can lodge there
and won't be removed by conventional bleeding methods.
Some systems need pressure bleeding. Even the smallest
bubble will be a problem! If you really have got rid of all the
bubbles then your cable/housing is the problem (see Dave
Nadler's post).
Dave Walsh
>>
>
>

[Tango Whisky]

After installing my system, I was also desperate, having bled the system multiple times. I talked to S-H to get a new braking cable (wich anyway is just about 30 cm long), with no result. I also talked to Tost who insisted that I must take the right procedure to bleed.

And at some point during the next bleeding operations, I got rid of the bubble.

[Michael Opitz]

At 03:53 19 October 2017, raxy...@gmail.com wrote:

Email posted to your email address listed on this thread. Also,
we had to unbolt the reservoir / master cylinder from the fuselage
mount and hold it maybe 8" above the floor pan while tapping on
the line in order to get all of the air bubbles to rise up and out.
Hope it helps.
RO

[Haven]

On Wednesday, October 18, 2017 at 1:32:29 PM UTC-7, raxy...@gmail.com wrote:
> Has anyone ever got a hydraulic Tost disk brake to work WELL on a Ventus 2CM? I'm convinced I've bled my brakes as well as they can be bled, and STILL the braking is very weak. I get some small braking action, but nowhere near being able to put the glider on its nose, or flat-spot the tire. I can slow down for a taxiway turn off, so long as its well ahead, but not enough to help on a short runway, or enough for a real emergency stop. I suspect the wire cable between the control stick and the cylinder under the seat must be stretching. I may try a thicker cable (I'm experimental).

We, the owner of a Discus2b and I, found the hydraulic line between the master cylinder and the caliper had failed inside, expanding just enough to not give adequate pressure to the caliper! Replaced the line and voila, good braking but alas, that glider now rests in pieces on the Whites.

[cliff...@gmail.com]

Paul Gaines and I did my ventus B with tost factory kit and had to do a lot of retrofitting as nothing was quite as simple as they led to believe. But after making some shims and other small bits, it came together quite well. We installed the master cylinder on the front bulkhead under the seat pan. This kept the brake cable very short and very little stretch. Braking is quite good while I cant lock up the tire on hard surfaces it does take complete back stick to keep from putting it on the nose. And bleeding is a pain but I managed it after a few messy trys.
CH

[bumper]

What Dave Walsh said about disconnecting the caliper and rotate it so the hose is at the top. Also make sure to clamp the piston so it can't pop out and make a mess in the next step.

That next step being to POWER bleed the system! I use a small modified pump up garden sprayer, but a pressure like this would work too: https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Products-0100-European-Bleeder/dp/B0002KM5L0/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_263_bs_lp_tr_t_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=RT8FE94HD4ZPCTR0A800

On some gliders, with a small reservoir, I've installed a Schrader valve,
drilling out the vent hole (remove the valve and drill a small hole in the cap for the vent). A tube is connected to that and run to a glass container so you can monitor the results.

To avoid a mess make sure all connections are secure (you can wrap a couple of turns of safety wire around the caliper bleed screw to make sure that doesn't pop off. While bleeding, operate the master cylinder a few times.

When the problem is with the cable, it's often the outer sleeve of the Bowden cable. If there's a too sharp bend in it, the windings can tend to climb over each other effectively shortening the housing length and putting slack in the inner cable.