Speed Astir owners?

[Grider Pirate]

I have met a grand total of ONE other Speed Astir owner, and have
never set eyes on another Speed Astir in person. Yeah, I know, there
weren't many built, and they're not popular, but dang. I'm not up for
starting a 'Speed Astir' club, but wouldn't mind corresponding with
others who fly them. Please feel free to 'reply to author' or post
here on RAS. (Even you, Max)
Cheers,
UF

[Andres]

Hi, I have a friend who owns a Speed Astir in my club. He loves his
machine.
Ray email: rlsq...@iprimus.com.au

Cheers
Andres

[Guy]

I owned a Speed Astir for many years and really enjoyed it.
It was an excellent cross-country machine with good legs and easy to
fill with water.
The controls were a bit heavy in aileron due to the gapless hinge
system but the flap system was the best I have every used.
Guy

[C K]

Hi there,
A friend of mine at our flying club in the South of England very kindly offered me a share in his well maintained Grob Speed Astir IIB and now we own it together. I have just done my first flight in it and love how it flies (as my partner does, he has been flying it 1.5 years or so and he has a lot of flying hours). I am low airtime, about 125 solo flights, yet this should give me lots more airtime than club gliders.

I would like to revive this thread to share experiences flying and owning a Speed Astir. I have a strong feeling I am going to love this first glider (after flying K13, K8, K21, junior and twin grob in my total 270 flights). There obviously aren’t many Speed Astir’s, so let’s share what we know.

First impressions:
- I am a 6ft3 tall pilot (1.91m) and it’s really comfortable (many older gliders aren’t for tall pilots)
- some say tight on hips, not an issue for me
- really like how stable she flies and thermals, should make for good soaring
- like the front perspex extra visibility in air and round out visibility
- flaps mechanism seems straight forward to use
- gotta watch for wing drop on AT especially with short rope, prop wash of towplane (drops right wing)

As for the flaps:
- for now I am going to set at neutral on AT, +5 on winch, +5 on landing (manual recommends +10, yet recommendations so far are +5 possibly more suitable as we seem to land at 55-65 knots in most conditions).
- subject to conditions and speeds of course, I would welcome any experience and thoughts.
- I won’t initially use negative too much as I don’t fly fast. I know negative 3 is recommended in flight above about 65kn, and negative 7 above 85kn

What’s your experience on flaps and on flying it?
Has anyone found a grosskinsky flap ring for this aircraft?
We will later add bits about rigging and maintenance, my partner has solid experience

Looking forward to hear experiences, share advice and questions.
Safe and happy flying! C

[Nicholas Kennedy]

CK
I would use what the manual recommends on the flap settings.
10 on landings for sure.
Make sure to set the trim forward ENOUGH so It flies hands off at your desired pattern speed.
Many accidents have occurred when pilots have lowered the landing flaps, got distracted and then let the ship get slow, stall and spin in.
In the pattern this is a known killer.
Set flaps 10 way up high and knowing your Max Flap extension speed, fly around and get used to the sight picture and nose down attitude. And the Trim level position, it likely may be way forward.
Get used to flying with flaps 10 near the max flap speed so if you have to land during a storm or strong conditions your used to it.
DO NOT let the ship get slow and stall after you enter the pattern.
Flaps are good , but add alot of drag
You got to trim that drag out and make sure if you get distracted the ship will not get slow on its own.
Have Fun!
Nick
T
LS3a

[C K]

Hi Nick,
Thanks a lot. Really appreciate the guidance. I will use your advice as input and try out your recommendations at altitude, I am also talking to an experienced instructor who used to own a speed astir and have a brief from a gliding club who used to have one as a club glider.

I will for sure be cautious and ensure not to have my speed drop on approach. I also read lots of accident reports (though not obsessed) and am checking for speed astir ones.

Hope we get Speed Astir flyers sharing experiences, I have not been able to find a flight test report (like Johnson), unfortunately. Maybe someone has one.

Best,
CK

[Eric Greenwell]

If you are going to fly close to the +10 speed limit, I suggest you select +5 instead: you won't have to worry about overspeeding, and you can touch down at a higher airspeed, making it easier to control the glider in windy conditions.

In strong, gusty conditions, I often use the first negative flap setting on my ASH26E, for the above reasons, and since there is almost always a strong headwind component in those conditions, the ground speed at touchdown is still relatively slow.

[Herbert Kilian]

My first Speed Astir flight:
This ship was at the top of our list if you only flew club gliders at the Luftsportverein Hameln in the 80's - as I did. My first flight, of course off the winch, was interesting. I immediately found lift and thermaled up. Before long I found myself over the town of Bad Pyrmont and foolishly decided to fly a XC to Oerlinghausen. After arriving over the glider school, I realized that I had zero documentation in the glider and not even my wallet. Called my club on the radio to explain the situation, there was a long silence. Returning to the club at Bisperode I realized that maybe I made some bad decisions. Found out after landing that there already had been an impromptu Board Meeting to expel me from the club. My wife's input plus the fact that she made the best cakes for our Sunday afternoon Kaffeeklatch saved my sorry ass.
My German friends showed their German humour by deciding I should make 10 consecutive winch tows in one day, each one with an immediate pattern and landing, you know, just to practice. Turned out to be a fun time, loved the Speed Astir, my first flapped ship.
Herb, J7

[Dan Daly]

Hi Pirate, you don't have to start a club. I fly an SZD-55, looked for a user group, and found none. I decided to start one using IO Groups in 2019. It's easy, free (up to 100 members), 1 GB storage (after five years we have 84 MB), easy to join. According to Wiki, there are about 110 55's, and we have 51 members. We store Flight Manuals, Maintenance manuals, TCDS data, write up problems we have and inquire whether others have solved them (usually they have). They call it a full-featured mailing list. If you'd like to see our group, go to IO groups, then search for SZD 55, we pop up. We usually limit it to owners, but if you'd like to have a peek, I can make it happen.

Cheers
Dan
2D
SZD-55 production #001

[Mike Finegan]

Or one can travel to downtown Minneapolis (if one dares) and see one in person, hanging in the atrium of an office building. It has been hanging there probably at least 30 years. Once tried to get the building owner to swap it for a earlier-vintage classic I owned, but no luck.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, March 18, 2010 at 5:05:15 PM UTC-4, Grider Pirate wrote:

The last Speed Astir that I saw belonged to the late Mahlon Weir. The ship was in his hangar in Delray Beach, Florida, don't know whatever happened to the ship. OBTP

[Bill Tisdale]

The original poster, "Grider Pirate", passed away many years ago. His Speed Astir "UF" "Uncle Fuzzy" is owned by another club member and still flown.
Bill

[Dan Marotta]

If the winds are really gusty and across the runway, I'll land with zero
flaps. The Stemme has full span flaperons and aileron effectiveness
declines with more flap deflection. I'd rather have lateral control
than drag in a high/gusty crosswind.

Dan
5J

On 8/16/23 21:05, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
> Advice on RAS is worth what you pay for it
> I got to say that advice from Eric Greewell to even consider landing in Negative flaps is shit, ever.
> He's a good pilot but that is some ratshit advice.
> JMHO
> Nick
> T

[BobW]

"What Dan sez below."

Been there, done that...and thought it by far the best option under the
circumstances. Landing w. negative flaps in a seriously-enthusiastic - but not
gusting - 90-degree X-wind on a paved runway's benefits as I saw it then (and
non-heart-stoppingly experienced): higher touchdown speed minimized X-wind
velocity vector of ship/side-loads on gear; minimimizing into-wind 'down-wing'
needed & ensured I didn't run out of rudder before planting the tail wheel
(which negative flaps also helps with); maximized aileron effectiveness.
Runway length available (lots) wasn't a consideration.

YMMV.

Bob W.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Now I know why I stayed away from RAS for almost 20 years before posting, like they say in the game show, "I'll Take What's Behind Door Number 1'". OBTP

[C K]

Thanks all for the input and Herb for the entertaining story.
I will obviously make up my own mind on the basis of data and experience. +10 flaps is the recommended setting for landing as per the speed astir manual, yet that’s at 44-52 knots (80-95km/h) approach speed so that explains why when we tend to land with an approach speed of 55 or above, we tend to use +5 most often.

Shame there are so few Speed Astir’s built and still flying. Please comment here if you have one, see one or used to fly one. Love to read more experiences and I will update after flying it more. Pictures/photos anyone? Will try to see if I can post a photo here if my partner is ok with that.

Cheers, CK

[RV 6 Driver]

Hi All, I have owned a Grob Speed Astro IIB since 2001. I'll chime in a little. When I get to the IP of our pattern where I fly I do 2 things. Lower and lock the landing gear and set the flaps full on (+10 degrees). I then fly the pattern at about 55 knots. Has always worked for me.
I am indeed the "Max" that "Glider Pirate" appealed to in the opening of this thread. As I very rarely on RAS, I did not see his post until after his death. That's why I never replied. I met UF when I delivered a LS4 to Jean NV. I had an opportunity to talk with him for a while about his Speed Astir. I think that was in 2008. He seemed like a great guy and I was truly sorry to hear of his passing.
Let me know if you have more Speed Astir questions and I'll do my best to help. I'll try to get on RAS more often to check in.

Cheers

Max

[2G]

The NTSB has no accidents or incidents listed for the G104 Speed Astir.

Tom 2G

[Eric Greenwell]

Your ASW27 has the same flap and aileron system my ASH26E has. What flap setting do you use to land in a gusty, 25-30 knot wind that is 30 degrees of the runway direction?

[Christoph Barniske]

I had a few flights in Speed II, the short version (IIb has longer fuselage). It's a bit heavy on the controls, slow in a roll and it would benefit from a larger rudder. The flaps are not coupled to the ailerons, but the ailerons move with the flaps. This is why it does not make sense to apply flap settings from Schleicher planes to the Speed Astir. The wings are very stiff and it's stable in higher speeds. Airbrakes are very powerful. The long wings make landings in higher grass tricky. It was also difficult to rig with pretty heavy wings. Quality of the gelcoat was very good.

There is a comprehensive review of the Speed-Astir on segelflug.de, in German though: https://www.segelflug.de/tests/SPEED-ASTIR/Speed%20Flugbericht%20Okt%202016.pdf. Google Translate can help. A glide polar has been measured by Idaflieg. The performance is on the level of an LS4, worse in higher speeds than other flapped ships of the same era.

Christoph

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Eric, I do NOT go negative, I would consider that as bad advice, I have also landed in such wind as you described. I would consider one notch positive and increase airspeed to facilitate the landing. To maintain somewhat better aileron control at a slower speed well after touchdown I will go negative, aileron control at higher speeds with negative flaps does not do anything for me. I am speaking from my own experience in ASW20 and ASW27 about 2500 hours combined. Hope you are doing well, OBTP

[C K]

Wow, thanks Christoph, the segelflug review is really comprehensive (I can read German and yes G translate is always there in time of need, the functionality to take a pic of text is handy).

Thanks all for continued input, look forward to hear even more about the Speed Astir, as an addition on flying experience, I find AT take off relatively challenging due to the belly hook only availability, she could yaw. Do love how she flies and lands.

Aviation safety net does have a few accident listings over 20 years, nothing that concerns me though.

Shame I can’t seem to put a pic here in Google groups, also learned over last few days that we have a second airworthy Speed Astir at our club, how about that.

[Roy B.]

Many years ago, the late Len Tanner - who then owned Tanner Hiller Airport in Massachusetts, bought a Speed Astir from a bank that had repossessed it. It had no logbook, limited instruments and an unknown history. He asked me to test fly it and I carefully went over it and agreed to do it. I did a single 3-hour flight in it and thought it was a pretty nice glider. I don't remember any difficulty with it and it handled and landed normally like any flapped glider. I recall that it had a big canopy that extended to exposing my sneakers. I also recall that there was a unique method to sealing the ailerons - no tape but instead what appeared to be a blue colored band of flexible fibreglass on the upper wing where today we would put mylar.

The late Peter Dandridge, a wonderful fellow, a gifted metallurgist and welder, and designer/builder of the beautiful SSA Shapiro and Hatcher Trophies, had one for many years that I think was marked "P3." John Hansman of MIT flew that one successfully in several contests.
ROY

[C K]

Thanks Roy.

am low on Aerotow experience (very much a winch flyer). Think I just need more experience flying it on tow, I agree she flies beautifully and is easy to control with straight forward elastic flap operation. Can’t wait to learn and experience more, the segelflug review is a gem, especially since so little is written about this aircraft.

[Eric Greenwell]

I normally land with "L" (landing) flap, then switch to negative flaps after touch down. I do that to remove lift from the wing, so the glider is well settled on the ground. It also shifts weight from the main wheel to the tail wheel, making the tail wheel more effective at keeping the glider going straight. That's really useful in gusty or cross winds.

But, when the winds and gusts are particularly strong, I find it's easier to land with the first notch of negative flap, so the glider is "settled" on the runway as soon as it touches down, and the tailwheel has full effect immediately. I haven't had any problems from doing this. What problems has landing in negative flaps cause you?

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Tanner, now there was a character, what ever happened to his warbirds. OBTP

[Roy B.]

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:34:48 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

> Tanner, now there was a character, what ever happened to his warbirds. OBTP

Don't know. His Mk 14 Spitfire was in the Bradley Air Museum - not sure if it is still there or not.
He had a T-6/SNJ that I think he sold before he died. He also had a T-28 Trojan that he wiped out
when it had a nose gear problem, he got the local fire department to spread foam on the runway, and then
he cut the fuel on final and missed the foam . . .
Ya - he was a character alright . . .
ROY

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Roy, you probably were a bit surprised that I knew old Tanner, yes, a character to say the least! Rolled the Pawnee again today, looked good except I has to hold my phone to video the maneuver. OBTP

[Geoff Kempster]

Not sure if this is the best place for this, But here goes.
I have G104 s/n 4004 which some time ago had a set of winglets installed only trouble with that is in Australia without a MOD order its very illegal.
So does any of the 104 owners have winglets fitted and if they do do you have any engineering notes that I could look at so I can get mod order and fly legally.
Tried getting experimental status but that is very restricted here in the land of OZ.
1 other bit of trivia the guy that was selling his the other day said it was s/n 4005. which is fine except my wings are serial number 4005 on a 4004 fuz. I wonder what number his wings are?
Any way thanks for looking (reading)
GK