Help. Obtaining a UK Gliding License on the basis of my American License

[Papa3]

Any of you folks from across the Pond care to help out?

I'm finding myself spending more time in the UK lately, including
weekends. I've flown with a number of different gliding clubs and
thoroughly enjoyed myself... so much so that I'm looking in to what it
would take to obtain a UK Gliding License. I contacted the BGA, but
I was basically told to poke around the BGA Website to find the
forms. Well, after 15 mintues of rooting around trying to figure out
what applies and what doesn't in my situation, I've given up.

Can anyone simplify this for me? Can I simply convert my US ratings
(commercial glider with flight instructor, 2,000 hours, 1,000K
diplome, etc.) to a UK license or do I need to start from scratch?

Any help appreciated.

Erik Mann (LS8-18 P3)

[Chris Reed]

Erik,

We don't have a licensing system, thus your problem.

We did invent something with the licence label, but it was just to
satisfy (from memory) the French authorities. It's issued by the BGA,
and doesn't meet the formal requirements of the various aviation treaties.

Licensing will be introduced in the next few years, but no-one knows
whether that will change the current system. You already know what that
is, but for other potential visitors it's quite simple:

a. Turn up at gliding club.

b. Talk to instructor, show log book, possibly show gliding
certificates, show copy of your medical (for UK pilots, this is just a
general practitioner doctor's certification that you are fit to drive a
small truck).

c. Undertake whatever check flights the club requires (usually at least
one launch if you want to fly the club's gliders).

d. Go fly on your own.

Your biggest complication might be the medical. If you have a US PPL,
then your medical should be fine. I believe that for a US glider pilot
licence you have general practitioner doctor's certification as well, so
ideally someone at the BGA would be prepared to endorse this as
equivalent to the UK certification.

[Paul Jessop]

Erik,

I normally end up explaining the opposite procedures (UK pilots wanting to
fly in the US). I fly at Bicester UK and in the DC area of the USA under
similar circumstances.

Here's the information at the BGA web site:

http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/gliderlicencenotes.pdf

and

http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/gliderlicence.pdf

You're clearly eligible for one (as you have an ICAO compliant glider
licence/license/certificate and I assume you have 5h PIC in the last year)
but as Chris points out it won't do you much good.

You should check carefully on the medical situation. Clearly there is no
requirement to hold a medical certificate at all under the FARs to fly
gliders. The BGA self regulatory (i.e. sensible and therefore about to be
abolished in the name of European harmonisation) regime requires you to
declare that you are fit to the standard required to drive a car (or to
drive professionally if an instructor) and get a family doctor to sign off
that there is nothing in your medical records that says otherwise (to make
sure you are being honest).

I'm not sure that the BGA will accept a US family doctor's endorsement
and a doctor here won't have access to your medical records to be able to
make the endorsement. So my recommendation would be to bite the bullet and
get a European ("JAA") medical certificate. If you have an FAA medical
certificate if ought to be possible to have it validated but I don't know
how to do this. I just got my medical examiner to do both at the same time
and he charged a nominal amount for the second one.

Stop press: I just checked the BGA's "Laws and Rules" and it says "For
short term visitors to the UK, a medical certificate valid for gliding in
their own country is acceptable, but these other certificates are not
acceptable for permanent UK residents" so getting an FAA medical might be
more useful. You should look at this download anyway:

http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/lawsandrules.pdf

If you want to instruct in the UK, that's in principle possible too. Your
club may thank you for jumping through the hoops. See the bottom of the
page at

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/instructors/requirements.htm

There are differences to learn. We fly a circuit not a pattern, glider
bits are held on with split pins not cotter pins, you'll get a kicking
from the Chief Flying Instructor if you pick up a wing drop at the stall
with opposite rudder and we fly this really sensible diagonal leg from
downwind to base that will scare most airport-trained US pilots senseless
(but is actually recommended by the US Soaring Safety Foundation which I
suspect of being infiltrated by BGA types). If you want to know more about
this, contact me off list and I'll also explain why I *still* haven't
converted my CFI(G) to a BGA instructor rating.

Have fun and fly safely.

Paul

Paul Jessop
pjessop <at> theiet <dot> org

[Dave Martin]

Erik

Chris has outlined the issues very well.

The biggest problem is the medical. Whilst there is no legal requirement
for a medical to fly gliders in the UK, the BGA in its wisdom have laid
down medical conditions that revolve around the pilots own GP (a PPL
medical is accepted)

Our insurers now accept these as conditions of flight insurance policies
and have refused to pay out when pilots have let the medical lapse and had
an accident.

In the past, I have spoken to insurance agents about this and the advice
was, "If you have US medicals then talk to the insurers of the club you
intend to fly at and provide details of your medical, they may accept
these and allow you to fly the clubs gliders."
(Get confirmation is writing)

We only have two or three under writers in the UK so it should not be a
major problem and could save money/time/frustration in the long run.

Regards

Dave Martin.

At 15:33 08 July 2009, Chris Reed wrote:

[Chris Reed]

Paul Jessop wrote:
> ... we fly this really sensible diagonal leg from

> downwind to base that will scare most airport-trained US pilots senseless

I remember that the other way round - flying in the US soon after I went
solo in the UK and hearing the cries of alarm from the back seat as I
cut off the nice square corner of the circuit at *exactly* 45 degrees
(as I said, I'd only just gone solo).

We have one or two other tricks up our sleeve for foreigners - for
example, we turn left off aerotow not right.

For a US visitor I'd suggest talking the UK instructor through your
flight before launching would be a good idea, so as to identify these
cultural differences before takeoff. As another example, Houston (where
I flew in the US) began all circuits at 1000ft agl over a particular
ground feature. At my UK flatland club we'd still be scratching at that
height and start the circuit around 700ft from an appropriate point,
maybe joining the circuit half way down the downwind leg. Fortunately
I'd been briefed on that beforehand, otherwise I'd not have got as far
as introducing Houston to the British diagonal. Clubs based in the hills
have modified circuit procedures to deal with curlover in particular
wind directions, but they tend to brief on those anyway because UK
flatlanders like me would otherwise get into trouble.

[Andy]

On Jul 8, 11:45 am, Paul Jessop <divemast...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here's the information at the BGA web site:

> http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/gliderlicencenotes.pdf

that ref includes the following:

"VALIDITY
This licence is only valid if the holder has completed 5 hours P1 in
gliders during the previous 12 months. In order to maintain validity
the holder must complete 5 hours P1 every twelve months and have this
recorded in a log book by an authorised instructor."

Do solo UK pilots really have to have their log entries endorsed by an
authorized instructor? In US no instructor, or any other person, is
required to approve a licenced pilot's P1 log entries. In fact I
don't even maintain a paper gliding log book anymore. All my flights
are logged in a computer database and can be substantiated by logger
files.

I returned to UK in 1982 after getting a US licence and within a few
weeks I was towing and intructing at my local UK club. I was approved
as an assistant instructor based on my FAA instructor certificate and
had started training for full cat when I got tired of watching the
rain and fled back to US. It may have been easier because I was a
Brit, but it sounds like it would be harder to do that now.

Andy

[Andy]

On Jul 8, 11:45 am, Paul Jessop <divemast...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> You're clearly eligible for one (as you have an ICAO compliant glider
> licence/license/certificate and I assume you have 5h PIC in the last year)

There may be a small catch here. It is my understanding that most US
pilot certificates are not ICAO compliant since they do not include
the statement that the pilot is proficient in English. New
certificates include the endorsement.

"Background: Effective March 5, 2008, ICAO Annex 1 (Personnel
Licensing) standards require that all private, commercial or ATPs as
well as FEs and flight navigators operating internationally as
required crewmembers of an airplane or helicopter have an airman
certificate with an endorsement of language proficiency. In the case
of persons holding a U.S. airman certificate, the language proficiency
endorsement will state “English Proficient”

So Papa3 you may need to get a new FAA certificate before you try to
use it as a basis for getting a BGA certificate. ;)

Andy

[Don Johnstone]

The law governing the solo flying of gliders in the UK is very simple, you
have to be over 16 to do it. That is it, that is all the law says.

The BGA rules have been correctly stated but from a legal point of view
you do not need a licence, certificate or indeed medical. I would stongly
recommend flying from a BGA site but there are locations where gliders are
flown outside the BGA and those are not bound by the BGA rules.

The BGA rules on medicals are that if your health enables you to hold a
current driving licence then you can fly solo. If you wish to instruct
then you need to fit the requirements to drive a lorry, medical
requirements that is.

The BGA rules say that your medical practitioner must sign the relevant
form which can be downloaded from the BGA website, nowhere does it say
that your medical practitioner has to be in the UK so get the form signed
by your doctor in the US and that complies with the rules. I have little
doubt that some jobsworth will try and find a reason why it is not
acceptable but it does comply with the stated rules.

To get to real basics you have to find someone who is prepared to let you
fly their glider to fly solo.
To instruct, well, you have to find someone who is prepared to let you
instruct in their glider.
The medical requirements for the above, you are expected to be able to
walk to and from the glider unaided, at the appropriate times but that is
not absolutely essential.

[Jim Logajan]

Andy <a.du...@netzero.net> wrote:
> On Jul 8, 11:45�am, Paul Jessop <divemast...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> You're clearly eligible for one (as you have an ICAO compliant glider
>> licence/license/certificate and I assume you have 5h PIC in the last
>> year
> )
>
> There may be a small catch here. It is my understanding that most US
> pilot certificates are not ICAO compliant since they do not include
> the statement that the pilot is proficient in English. New
> certificates include the endorsement.

Ahem - that appears to be wrong - here's what an ICAO FAQ says:

"Glider and free balloon pilots and flight engineers: There is no
language proficiency Standard applicable to these categories of
personnel. However, Annex 1, Chapter 1, paragraph 1.2.9.3 contains a
Recommendation that reads: "Flight engineers, glider and free balloon
pilots should have the ability to speak and understand the language used
for radiotelephony communications."

From:
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm

"Should" isn't "must" unless the state wishes to make it so.

> "Background: Effective March 5, 2008, ICAO Annex 1 (Personnel
> Licensing) standards require that all private, commercial or ATPs as
> well as FEs and flight navigators operating internationally as
> required crewmembers of an airplane or helicopter have an airman
> certificate with an endorsement of language proficiency. In the case
> of persons holding a U.S. airman certificate, the language proficiency

> endorsement will state �English Proficient�

As noted in the FAQ I quoted from, the above quoted paragraph isn't
applicable to glider pilots (note it only mentions airplane and
helicopter pilots - so English language proficiency for pilots of
gliders, balloons, airships, powered lift, ornithopters, and anti-gravity
UFOs from Mars doesn't appear to be applicable.)

[Alan]

In article <78e2ca98-55e0-462f...@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com> Andy <a.du...@netzero.net> writes:

>On Jul 8, 11:45=A0am, Paul Jessop <divemast...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> You're clearly eligible for one (as you have an ICAO compliant glider

>> licence/license/certificate and I assume you have 5h PIC in the last year=

>)
>
>There may be a small catch here. It is my understanding that most US
>pilot certificates are not ICAO compliant since they do not include
>the statement that the pilot is proficient in English. New
>certificates include the endorsement.
>
>"Background: Effective March 5, 2008, ICAO Annex 1 (Personnel
>Licensing) standards require that all private, commercial or ATPs as
>well as FEs and flight navigators operating internationally as
>required crewmembers of an airplane or helicopter have an airman
>certificate with an endorsement of language proficiency. In the case
>of persons holding a U.S. airman certificate, the language proficiency

>endorsement will state =93English Proficient=94

>
>So Papa3 you may need to get a new FAA certificate before you try to
>use it as a basis for getting a BGA certificate. ;)
>
>Andy

Probably not. From http://www.luchtzak.be/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38606

Effective March 5, 2008, ICAO Annex 1 (Personnel Licensing) standards
require that all private, commercial or ATPs as well as FEs and flight
navigators operating internationally as required crewmembers of an airplane
or helicopter have an airman certificate with an endorsement of language
proficiency. In the case of persons holding a U.S. airman certificate,

the language proficiency endorsement will state ?English Proficient?.

On October 26, 2007, ICAO published State Letter AN 12/44.6-07/68 regarding
Assembly - Resolution A36-11- Proficiency in the English Language Used for
Radiotelephony, which automatically delays implementation up until March 5,
2011 for those countries notifying ICAO. As such, the U.S. has notified
ICAO that it file a difference that will extend the U.S. compliance date
until March 5, 2009 in order to provide sufficient time for all affected
U.S. airman certificate holder to comply with the ICAO Language
Proficiency airman certificate endorsement requirements.

Since we are talking about gliders, not airplanes or helicopters, the
requirement would appear not to apply.

Further, since notification has been made to the ICAO, you would have
until March 5, 2009 for international operations in airplanes and helicopters.

If the operation were fully within the UK, in a UK registered aircraft,
it would seem to not be an international operation, so the requirement
probably would not apply there, anyway.

Alan

[Papa3]

Grin :-) I've now flown a bit in Germany, Sweden, Austria, and the
UK. Everybody has their own local customs, but at the end of the day
we all figure out how to get the ship down in one big piece.

[Papa3]

On Jul 8, 8:23 pm, nos...@w6yx.stanford.edu (Alan) wrote:

>         Alan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks to everyone for clarifying/amplifying/explicating. I'll go
ahead and take it up with the club(s) where I intend to fly and see
what they say. In the meantime, I'll get the UK medical certificate
out of the way just as a an additional precaution. With regard to
English...one of my newer certificates (I think my most recent flight
instructor) states English proficient or some such, though my wife
might beg to differ.

P3

[Surfer!]

In message <7bkofrF...@mid.individual.net>, Don Johnstone
<gp3...@okbloggs.co.uk> writes
<snip>

>The medical requirements for the above, you are expected to be able to
>walk to and from the glider unaided, at the appropriate times but that is
>not absolutely essential.

It's not needed at all - there is at least one paraplegic instructor in
the UK and a number of Bronze badge holders.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Jim Beckman]

At 23:30 08 July 2009, Don Johnstone wrote:
>The law governing the solo flying of gliders in the UK is very simple,
you
>have to be over 16 to do it. That is it, that is all the law says.

That's an interesting point. Does the BGA enforce that rule? My point
being that in the US you can solo on your 14th birthday. A certain number
of pilots do that every year.

Jim Beckman

[Surfer!]

In message <7bm7ulF...@mid.individual.net>, Jim Beckman
<jamesb...@comcast.net> writes

>At 23:30 08 July 2009, Don Johnstone wrote:
>>The law governing the solo flying of gliders in the UK is very simple,
>you
>>have to be over 16 to do it. That is it, that is all the law says.
>
>That's an interesting point. Does the BGA enforce that rule?

Oh yes.

>My point
>being that in the US you can solo on your 14th birthday. A certain number
>of pilots do that every year.

And quite a few solo on their 16th birthday here, assuming the weather
is suitable!

[Bartek K.]

> The BGA rules say that your medical practitioner must sign the relevant
> form which can be downloaded from the BGA website, nowhere does it say
> that your medical practitioner has to be in the UK so get the form signed
> by your doctor in the US and that complies with the rules.

Yep, I had no problems flying solo in the UK with the form signed by
an Irish GP.

Bart

[Derek Copeland]

I am not sure that it is quite as easy as that. The BGA self declaration
medical form countersigned by your own doctor is a requirement for the UK
NPPL, i.e. for UK recreational pilots flying simple UK registered
aircraft, including gliders, in UK airspace. We may have a special
arrangement with the Irish, or maybe this just wasn't spotted!

At some point in the future this, or something similar, will become a
European wide arrangement under EASA, as part of a Recreational Pilots
Licence. At the moment the French won't accept my UK NPPL medical
certificate, and would require that I undergo a medical by one of their
own aviation doctors before flying there, although most of the other EC
countries will, but only if I am flying a UK registered glider. UK NPPL
holders are not even allowed to fly foreign registered aircraft in the UK,
as my club found out when we imported a German registered towplane. It
could only be flown by pilots with full CAA or JAR medical certificates.

Obviously we will accept any recognised aviation medical certificate
issued by a National or International Aviation Authority. Otherwise it
would be a good idea to check with the BGA before coming. Their website is
www.gliding.co.uk

Derek Copeland

[Don Johnstone]

Nowhere does it say in any of the paperwork that the medical practitioner
has to be in the UK. The medical practitioner is only signing to confirm
that the declaration made by the applicant is true so where he comes from
is immaterial.
The form and medical are only relevant to the BGA and are NOT a legal
requirement in the UK, they are only required to fly at a UK BGA club.

Why is it that some people want to complicate everything, I did say on my
original post that some jobsworth would find fault, so now you know
exactly who the jobsworth is.
The original question was about flying in the UK, not France or any of the
other countries in Europe.

The basic requirement remains, to fly a glider solo in the UK you have to
be aged 16 years or more. That is the ONLY legal requirement, there are no
others, no medical, no certificate, no licence, no talking to jobsworth.
You just need to be 16 years or older.

[Don Johnstone]

Nowhere does it say in any of the paperwork that the medical practitioner
has to be in the UK. The medical practitioner is only signing to confirm
that the declaration made by the applicant is true so where he comes from
is immaterial.
The form and medical are only relevant to the BGA and are NOT a legal
requirement in the UK, they are only required to fly at a UK BGA club.

Why is it that some people want to complicate everything, I did say on my
original post that some jobsworth would find fault, so now you know
exactly who the jobsworth is.
The original question was about flying in the UK, not France or any of the
other countries in Europe.

The basic requirement remains, to fly a glider solo in the UK you have to
be aged 16 years or more. That is the ONLY legal requirement, there are no
others, no medical, no certificate, no licence, no talking to jobsworth.
You just need to be 16 years or older.

At 06:45 10 July 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:

[Papa3]

On Jul 10, 5:45 am, Don Johnstone <gp3...@okbloggs.co.uk> wrote:

> The basic requirement remains, to fly a glider solo in the UK you have to
> be aged 16 years or more. That is the ONLY legal requirement, there are no
> others, no medical, no certificate, no licence, no talking to jobsworth.
> You just need to be 16 years or older.
>

Sadly, on that front I am more than qualified...

[neital...@gmail.com]

All U.S. Glider and Power Licenses must have the statement that the person is proficient in English. They are no longer issued without those words. Neita Montague CFIG

[Paul Ruskin]

>The basic requirement remains, to fly a glider solo in the UK you have to
>be aged 16 years or more. That is the ONLY legal requirement, there are no
>others, no medical, no certificate, no licence, no talking to jobsworth.
>You just need to be 16 years or older.

Without wishing to accuse you of being a jobsworth, Don, I think it's been 14 in the UK for a few years.

Paul

[Bruce Hoult]

Must have been quite a few.

We had a discussion in NZ in the early 90s about whether we should keep the minimum age at 16, or change to 14 like USA and UK.

In the end it was decided the entire concept of a minimum age based on calendar years was flawed and now we don't have one at all.

If you can reach the controls and demonstrate to a club's chief instructor that you can fly the glider and (most importantly!) make appropriate decisions under pressure in various real and simulated situations -- congratulations, you can solo!

To my knowledge, two 12 year olds have soloed in NZ (one boy, one girl). Maybe it's more by now.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Well, this thread IS 8 years old now, lots can change in that time.

[Paul Ruskin]

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 1:27:52 PM UTC+1, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Well, this thread IS 8 years old now, lots can change in that time.

Well spotted. I wonder why the thread sprang back into existence.

Paul

[Bruce Hoult]

Oh, you weren't aware of that before your first reply?

[Paul Ruskin]

No, though I was a bit puzzled as to why Don seemed to have the wrong age.

I think we changed it around 2013.

P