Soaring Community Consumer Warning

[BobD]

I like many others understand that the glider community is small, and perhaps getting smaller. In trying to sell my glider, I placed an ad on Tim Mara's Wings and Wheels. He states on his website that he offers this for free to help the community. Or so I thought.

Selling a glider is a difficult task, especially in this economy and to a niche interest group. As for me, I'm buying a new glider and need funding from the sale of my present ship. I do all this on a tight budget. So letting the soaring community know about my offering is a marketing effort of importance and I know that to be successful, I need to cover the bases. Not everyone will see an ad in one given location. Coverage is the issue.

I've placed the same advertising offering on SoaringCafe.com's marketplace page. I used the same information there as I did on Wings and Wheels. I've also put the same details here on RAS, and I will likely put them on the SSA paid website marketing pages and anywhere else I feel is appropriate for seeking buyers. I simply want to sell my glider.

I've been a customer of Tim's and have spent a lot of money with his enterprise. Which is why I was stunned when he emailed me back saying I cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings and Wheels if I didn't discontinue the SoaringCafe ad. His message was "I don't allow it"...period.

Why would someone who should know the value of a customer, and the small scale of our community, do that? Anyone know why? When I called him he was indignant and said the policy was in his reply email to me AFTER the ad went up. Such a policy is not stated ANYWHERE on his website. It makes no sense since SoaringCafe is not in competition with Wings and Wheels other than advertising other vendors, who pay for that visibility. SoaringCafe's web presence it different.

Tim notified me yesterday that the ad was being removed since I hadn't complied with his demand (24 hours after making it). In calling him to discuss it, he was indignant with me, refused to listen, and hung up. Nice going Tim, you just lost a customer who will now exercise his consumer rights and inform the community of your detrimental decision that undermines my effort to sell my glider. And yes, I will use the internet bully pulpit to let the community know of your attitude towards that community. Hats of to SoaringCafe and goodbye to Wings and Wheels. Honoring and valuing your customers doesn't seem to be in Tim's business plan. I can't think of a worse business attitude.

Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and work with you.

Bob DeLeon
Glider pilot and owner since 1997

[markr...@gmail.com]

You are mad that you aren't getting a free service because the provider of the free service has strings attached to your free use of the free service?

He's allowed to demand exclusive use if you place an ad, and you are allowed to tell him to buzz off.

He has not harmed you. Move on.

[herbk...@gmail.com]

Bob,

The main reason I suspect Tim is listing For Sale ads is to promote traffic to his site. While there, you might check some of his merchandise and buy a tire or an HpH glider. This is a sensible and smart marketing move that seems to work for him. It is entirely up to him what conditions he attaches to that free listing service. He has no obligation to spell out those conditions in detail. It's really very simple: comply with his wishes or list someplace else. Knocking Tim and his business in really not justified.

[BobD]

Knocking Tim and his business in really not justified.

Actually, I've spent a fair amount of money with him and his business. When I and my partner bought said glider for sale (12 years ago), we outfitted the entire panel save the ASI with his products. Also bought a parachute, Prandl probe and other accessories; over $5,000. Over the years, a few more hundred dollars has been spent with W&W for support goods.

This is how you treat a customer? In running my business, I don't state anything different than the original agreement. I placed my ad in good faith and in understanding WHAT I READ on his webpage. There was no statement of policies AGAINST placing your ad on another website. He implied 3 months later that SoaringCafe stole or copied over the ad and it was my obligation to take it down. In trying to understand his reason and explain that I placed it, he hung up on me as I was being civil in the discussion.

Your right--he can do whatever he pleases, including throwing in other policies after the deal. It's his business. I just hope you aren't given a switch deal and hung up on while trying to resolve it. Being a consumer and loyal to our community of glider owners and participants, I find using my consumer rights is justifiable in a public forum for actions like this. Hope you're not trying to sell a glider right now.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Bob, I don't think we've met so I don't know what kind of person you are. No offense intended, but I also don't know what really transpired here; I learned long ago that there are often (always?) two sides to every story. I do know Tim has always been great in my dealings with him. I've bought things from him and sold stuff to and through him. If--and again, I mean no disrespect--everything went down exactly as you say it did, perhaps Tim was having a bad day (never happens to me!). Maybe he feels like some of the more recent entrants are siphoning away traffic from his site, which he depends on heavily in his business. So in my opinion, the responses you're getting here are from pilots like me who don't want to judge either one of you based on your--dare I say--indignant account because we don't know what really happened or why. But we are grateful for the service Tim has provided over the years. If you don't like the terms of his free service, you're free to go elsewhere. My experience dealing with the larger soaring vendors is that they're all great to work with.

Chip Bearden, glider pilot and owner since 1965 :)
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

[Paul Remde]

Hi Bob,

He does the same thing when customers list gliders on the
www.glidersource.com web site. Another soaring community volunteer put a
lot of work into the www.glidersource.com web site. It is excellent. The
creator of www.glidersource.com is a glider pilot and trying to make a
valuable resource available. Tim's site is very valuable resource too,
but...

Paul Remde
_______________________

"BobD" wrote in message
news:b34d3cce-c658-4339...@googlegroups.com...

Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you�like hanging up

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

On Friday, March 22, 2013 12:49:11 AM UTC-4, Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi Bob, He does the same thing when customers list gliders on the www.glidersource.com web site. Another soaring community volunteer put a lot of work into the www.glidersource.com web site. It is excellent. The creator of www.glidersource.com is a glider pilot and trying to make a valuable resource available. Tim's site is very valuable resource too, but... Paul Remde

Tim's site is the default place to go to see what is for sale.
The other's a just posers. W&W is where the gliders get sold.
Tim has provided this service for many years and I think this is the first gripe I think I've ever heard.
Those of us that buy and sell sailplanes truely appreciate what he does for us.
Sometimes we might even buy something from him.
Thanks Tim- Keep up the nice work.
UH

[John Carlyle]

Add my voice to that of Hank, Chip, Herb and Mark. Tim has worked hard to make Wings & Wheels THE place to sell gliders, and he does it to try to get more business. Duplicating your ad elsewhere is an attack on his model. If you want the best exposure to sell your glider, swallow your pride and make nice with Tim.

-John, Q3

[BobD]

> The other's a just posers. W&W is where the gliders get sold.
>

> UH

WOW UH. "The others are just posers"... what an unhealthy position that is for our sport. In case you haven't noticed, this is the United States, where free enterprise competition exists for the benefit of the end-user. Me: I'm just trying to sell my glider and stay vibrant in this sport. What's stupid is Tim asked me when I placed my ad what I was getting. I told him a Jonker JS-1C. 3 months later he comes back to bully me into pulling my "for sale" ad off SoaringCafe instead of saying "Hey Bob, hope your ad on my site is getting you prospects. Keep me in mind for your new glider needs such as panel instruments, waxes etc." Now that won't happen, will it?

Nope--that wasn't the message I got. I got the Soviet Union instead--my way or the highway. Again: Is this how YOU would treat past, loyal customers? Is this how you help the sport prosper? I understand the issue of competition as with my business.

Read the previous post: he does this to others. How detrimental to the sport.

[Dan Marotta]

I'm all for multiple listings.

When I was in the market for my LAK-17a, I found the ad on Soaring Cafe.
Upon calling the seller, he told me that he'd removed the glider from the
market 6 months prior and thought all the ads had been taken down. I asked
him to keep my address should he change his mind, which he did. Had that ad
been taken down, I'd not have found my dream ship.

I'll keep my right/wrong opinions to myself on the main topic of this post,
but I agree with the original post concerning having the widest possible
dissemination of the advertisement.


"BobD" <bobd...@windstream.net> wrote in message
news:3de48c4b-024e-4fb2...@googlegroups.com...

[Bart]

I used to think that the Wings and Wheels site was "the" site for
soaring classifieds and everything else was - at best - its subset.

In light of the information found in this thread, it appears that the
other sites _are_ worth checking, as ads that are posted there are
unlikely to be found on Tim's site.

So, there's soaringcafe.com, glidersource.com... anything else?

Bart

[Liam]

Another installment in the great soaring classified ad wars. Who will
corner the market for hosting free ads serving a dwindling niche
market, in the process capturing literally hundreds of page views per
month? As Sayre's law says, the conflict is bitter only because the
stakes are so small.

[bumper]

I agree, a business owner has a right to place whatever restrictions he likes on his services. A business decision of course, and as an owner of a service company (no, mot making MKIV's and QV's) one I understand . . . though one I'd personally make differently.

It's kind of like if a business owner said, "If you want to do business with me, you have to sign my 'exclusivity agreement' promising not to do business with anyone else for the products and services I offer". Does the owner have a right to do that? Sure! Good business? Not so much. One might get away with it for a while if they have an exclusive, single source product . . . but it's not really in keeping with the principals that make capitalism such a great system. In the end, it's bound to aggravate some customers and maybe turn some away.

Better that customer loyalty be earned through surprisingly excellent service and good value. Coercion shouldn't have a place in this.

I imagine it's not easy making a living with an unseemly group like glider pilots as one's only customers, so I have deep appreciation for all the honest and hardworking businesses that strive to serve us while keeping their families fed at the same time. Gotta be a labor of love.

bumper
MKIV & QV

[Bravo Victor]

Bob,

Email me off group and I believe that I can give you some insight on this issue.

nov44bv (the usual stuff at the biggest search engine email service)

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

<3 months later he comes back to bully me into pulling my "for sale" ad off SoaringCafe instead of saying "Hey Bob, hope your ad on my site is getting you prospects. Keep me in mind for your new glider needs such as panel instruments, waxes etc." Now that won't happen, will it?>

While I wouldn't purport to speak for Tim, I suspect he greeted this news with some relief. He doesn't allow you to use his free service the way you want to and the next thing is you post a "Consumer Warning" to the world. I can only imagine what might happen if you were unhappy with something you'd actually paid for. :)

Bumper has his finger on it. This is much like real estate "exclusive listings" (New York City) vs. "multiple listing services" (almost everywhere else). The difference is that unlike real estate, these guys don't make any money by simply listing a glider for sale. They count on the ads to bring people to their sites. And to promote good will and get their names out in the market (a mixed blessing in this case).

There is an argument to be made that a virtual multiple listing service (e.g., W&W with no restriction on listing a glider elsewhere) might get more traffic if pilots knew they could come to Tim's site and find everything. Of course, the reverse is true, too; if all gliders are also available on the other sites, he might lose traffic he now gets because anyone looking for a glider must check his site frequently.

Which business model to use is up to the vendor. Soaring is a tiny market and as expensive as these gadgets are, I suspect these guys aren't making big bucks selling them to us. Calling someone out because you didn't like a vendor's policy on a free service seems to be hitting below the belt.

In the past, I used to mull over a posting like your original one overnight and read it again in the morning. Frequently I edited it heavily or even deleted it entirely. Nevertheless, on a few occasions I was criticized for something I said; not so much my opinion but for the way I voiced it. When I realized I was out of line, I felt better admitting it, apologizing, and moving on. Pilots didn't seem to think any less of me for that. We've made a lot of noise about a minor episode but the impact to reputations could linger even after the flying weather kicks off. Just a thought.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

[Don Johnstone]

Where is it all going to end, is the next step telling us we have to pay
an annual fee before we can be allowed to spend our money buying spares?

[Jock Proudfoot]

>cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings

and Wheels.

Interestingly, the ad for C-GEST on W&W has been duplicated on SAC.ca for
months.

Not much concern for what goes on in Canada?
Cheers ...Jock

[Eric Greenwell]

Tim still does not list his requirement the ad for your glider be
exclusively with him. The only requirement I see is this one, written in
red and underlined:

"I only ask that you please send notice when your sailplane, trailer,
airplane or part has been sold or your wanted ad is no longer needed."

Given the lack of warning about Tim's requirements for exclusivity (and
perhaps letting his business interests interfere with his civility), I
suggest he immediately and prominently post those requirements, then
contact BobD with something like this: "My bad for not informing you of
the situation. I'll be glad to repost your ad until you sell your
glider. Please let me know at your convenience."

Should Tim make such an offer, I hope BobD will accept it graciously,
and allow the ad to be reposted.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[BobD]

Eric: I would gladly do so.

No Chip, I'm not hitting below the belt. Hanging up on me when I was trying to have an understanding led to this. Trying to sell my glider and NOT informing me before hand until well after I posted on SoaringCafe hurts the entire community in spite of his store offerings and past services. I understand his right to policy, but read Eric's post.

[Kevin Christner]

To the soaring community,

In the interests of full disclosure, I have known Tim for 14 years now starting at the age of 14. When I was in high school and flight computers were first becoming commonplace I worked for Tim as everyone in the soaring community adapted to the new racing rules and no one could make a serial port work, except for a 14 year old nerdy kid... ;) This led to some of his clients flying me out to their homes and spending a day doing on site training with them. It was a great business for a 14-18 year old, and taught me many of the important business skills I use today in the Venture Capital industry. In fact, I'm sure I got some early internships / jobs because of these early entrepreneurial experiences.

Tim helped me find, buy and restore several gliders when I was "wet behind the ears." Without his help, encouragement, and convincing of my parents that gliders held their value (and actually I've made a profit on every glider I've owned, thanks to Tim's advice), I probably wouldn't have gotten far in soaring as I have, and doubt I would still be involved. He built me new panels, traded me instruments, sold me everything I've ever purchased at his cost (and sometimes below.) Furthermore, Tim has been the seed that has kept soaring together in Western New York / Northwest PA, helped found the very successful Brokenstraw soaring club, sold the club an L-23 that he owned right after our L-13 was grounded for $20k, when there were numerous, not nearly as nice models, listed on his website for $40k or more. Thank you Tim. I, and many others, owe you more than you could ever know.

On to the current situation. Soaringcafe.com started their want ads by "scraping" Tim's ads. Every glider that went up magically appeared on Soaringcafe.com. This is truly unfortunate, because I have otherwise found Soaringcafe.com to be an excellent resource with great content. But in this case, they clearly crossed a line to seed their own want ads by stealing from Tim's 10+ (maybe 15) year program of providing this service for free in order to drive more traffic to their (Soaringcafe.com) site that appears to be a money-making effort, based on their numerous ad placements. There doesn't seem to be much of a difference between this and the SSA attempting to put Hawke Tracking out of business. It also appears that some of the same people may have been involved. While there has been much questioning of Tim's character, no one seems to have asked the opposite questions...

If you talk to just about anyone in the soaring community, they have bought and sold gliders off the W&W want ads. Imitators have come and gone, but the W&W ads are still there because they have high traffic and a history of success. If I had a choice of listing on W&W or EVERYWHERE else, I would choose W&W, and I think most would as well.

Finally, having literally spent 100s of hours with Tim at W&W, you would have no idea how many times glider repair shops and experienced pilots have called Tim looking for a specific part, often not even knowing what they are looking for. A question of "What model, what year, ect." will result in a "you need an XYZ type hydraulic line at this length." Tim has probably owned more than 50 gliders (has anyone else in world owned more?), and is an encyclopedia of knowledge of what works with what, especially with the older, smaller production gliders where it is nearly impossible to get support.

I know that most business owners in the Soaring community work very hard for what they earn. It has not been uncommon for me to stop by Tim's at 7am while he is on the phone with Germany or at 10pm making sure a package can be overnighted to a hotel in NYC first thing in the morning where a foreign airline pilot is staying.

Tim's policy was not created out of thin air with some sort of malicious intent, but was rather a response to Soaringcafe.com stealing his ads. He did what any person who was essentially having material stolen from him probably would. I hope this helps set the record straight and provides a better insight into Tim's character for those of you who are new to the Soaring community and are wondering who to deal with to meet your needs.

Best regards,

Kevin Christner

[*\"@invalid.invalid]

On 3/23/2013 3:45 PM, Kevin Christner wrote:
> On to the current situation. Soaringcafe.com started their want ads by "scraping" Tim's ads. Every glider that went up magically appeared on Soaringcafe.com. This is truly unfortunate, because I have otherwise found Soaringcafe.com to be an excellent resource with great content. But in this case, they clearly crossed a line to seed their own want ads by stealing from Tim's 10+ (maybe 15) year program of providing this service for free in order to drive more traffic to their (Soaringcafe.com) site that appears to be a money-making effort, based on their numerous ad placements. There doesn't seem to be much of a difference between this and the SSA attempting to put Hawke Tracking out of business. It also appears that some of the same people may have been involved. While there has been much questioning of Tim's character, no one seems to have asked the opposite questions...

Thank You, Kevin.
This had needed to be brought out once, again.
I was hoping that some of the other RAS users would have long enough
memories to have recalled this previous incident, exposed by users of
Tim's classifieds finding their ships being advertised at an
unauthorized source.
I thought some of them would step forward.

Tim is justified in not allowing the use of his web assets to further
the business of those engaged in the act of stealing from him.

Russ

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I wanted to thank Kevin (and Russ) for the new insight. In the absence of a response by or for SoaringCafe, I assume Kevin's comments about "screen scraping" are accurate. I was not aware of it. Screen scraping is a time-honored way for aggregator sites to collect prices or fares or ads from other, originating sites in order to fill out their offerings and make them more attractive to visitors. Battling screen scrapers is equally time honored, as vendors sometimes want to maintain exclusivity to make their sites--on which they depend commercially--more attractive. I can well understand Tim's frustration with having ads he's accepted for free to provide more of a "one-stop shopping experience" appear on other soaring vendors' sites.

One might reasonably ask whether having, say, SoaringCafe.com copy an ad is the same as the glider owner independently listing his aircraft on the two sites. But the effect is the same. For that matter, I'm not sure how Tim would be able to tell whether an ad was lifted from his site or entered by the owner. So I can understand why Tim has decided to enforce this policy.

As to whether it is new or undisclosed, I noted the following phrase in prominent red letters: "These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for other aircraft dealers, resellers or commercial vendors!" That seems to have appeared the first time about five years ago (based on a quick review of the Internet Archive). I don't think the average consumer would think twice about this. Another commercial site might--and probably should--hesitate before scraping such content for inclusion on their site. I don't know the legality of it in this situation but I suspect if there were any real money in the soaring equipment business, someone would have filed suit about this already, at least as a deterrent.

Hopefully this issue has been resolved. For sure we're tired of talking about it. For the record, however, Bob, I did re-read Eric's post but I'll stick with my earlier opinion (and it's just that) that your "warning" the worldwide soaring community about an policy issue over a free service that didn't harm you was hitting below the belt. You may offer your own opinions about what Tim's reasons might be or how the soaring community might be served better. But until and unless you're hurt financially, trying to deter others from doing business with a guy who, by everyone's report including mine, has always bent over backwards to help us is inappropriate.

[BobD]

Chip, you must suffer from "selective reading disorder." Eric's comments were fact. The statement on Tim's webpage that your quoting: "These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for other aircraft dealers, resellers or commercial vendors!"… does NOT state that I, the seller AND MY AD, is restricted only to his web site and NOT allowed by me, the seller, to be placed on another website.

I'm not a "dealer", "reseller", or "commercial vendor" in this case. You need to take a course in contractual law and understand how the wording should be. In plain language it should have been, as Tim LATER stated 3 months after I placed MY ad on Soaring Cafe, "You volunteered your ad and information to be placed on the W&W Want-ads where it is well known that nearly anyone looking to buy of sell a glider, aircraft, trailer or parts goes to as the one most up-to-date source. These website like others before them are simply trying to create a commercial website and use want-ads like yours to draw viewers and advertisers. Though they promote this as a service by stealing ads and adding want-ads to their site but simply taking away the one most useful single source for up-to-date listing for all buyers and sellers alike. W&W ads are free as always and still in continuous use since the days before the internet became a household media If someone wants to list with other websites and freely submits an ad to them that is up to them to decide where they think they will get the most benefit and exposure and I will never send spam or copy ads to list on Wings & Wheels want-ads but respectfully decline to offer them the free space to list on the Wings & Wheels want-ads a duplicate listing."

If this is his policy, he should have stated it up front on his classifieds page. But it wasn't AND I was not aware of the past issues of ad stealing. I placed my ad on Soaring Cafe because my Jonker dealer suggested it. I was unaware that Soaring Cafe offered classifieds, so I place MY AD. It was not stolen or copied over by them. A month later, Tim sends the above message. That's a backdoor policy--and it does hurt me. I believe that my chance to sell my glider is best served by getting as much exposure as possible. Making that tough on me by way of an incident that he apparently hasn't settled with Soaring Cafe is penalizing me. If his policy had been stated CLEARLY UP FRONT, I would have been given the choice. And knowing that his web classifieds are the prominent place to advertise, I would have complied. But bullying me into making the choice later on is not good business, so I'm exercising my right to let the community know what happened to me. If there is an aftermath to this, then Tim needs to reword his online policy right now.

I understand the affection for his business. He's helped me out in the past as well and I was a loyal customer. But I also believe in having a choice. Now he's not helping me out with a major and difficult thing to do: I just want to sell my glider in the midst of a difficult economy.

So Chip--that's my position. If you are myopic in not understanding, that's just you. But don't accuse me of being unfair as to what transpired. Me, I'm moving on.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Hi, Bob,

This is fun!--at least compared with doing my taxes. I agree; time to move on. The more you say, the worse it gets, even with 189 words of "plain language."

I'll think about that course in contract law you suggested--after I finish my current sessions for selective reading disorder. :) Until then, my layman's impression is that among other elements required for a valid contract is "consideration", for example if you had agreed to refrain from posting ads on other sites that you would otherwise have had a right to do. Absent consideration, my view is that all you had was Tim's promise to display your ad for as long as he felt like doing so. Subsequently, you two entered into a negotiation: he made an offer, you declined to accept it. Again, no contract.

That said, Eric's suggestion is a good one: make the policy more explicit. We do a lot in soaring fairly informally. But Tim is in business so it's in his interest to avoid misunderstanding (although my impression is that he's coming out of this fray looking pretty good!). I apologize for being a little oblique in my last epistle. I intended to convey that Tim's "These ads are intended for..." disclosure was probably aimed at other commercial sites that might attempt to clone the ads on his site for their own purposes, not at the individual glider owner. [Hey, my selective reading disorder instructor has published a self-help book. Would you like a copy?]

Seriously, best wishes on selling your aircraft...and on finding a soaring vendor brave enough to risk his/her future reputation by selling you equipment for the new one. I'm not saying it's right that Tim hung up on you, but after participating in this discussion, I have some appreciation for why he might have felt obliged to do so.

[Kevin Christner]

I just took a look at the W&W and Soaring Cafe classifieds. It appears the owner of Soaring Cafe's glider is currently listed on the W&W Want Ads and not Soaring Cafe. Market validation?

2C

[Glidergeek]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

If you're still bothering with this thread, you've gotta read this:

Saw Glidergeek's "waaah waaah" response (I don't always understand cryptic, unsigned posts but I guess I get the message here, Russ). Just for grins, I did a few checks. If you liked Bob DeLeon's irate "consumer warnings" about Wings & Wheels, you'll LOVE this one (summarized):

Andrew from the UK: He had emailed Richard at Craggy Aero about an S-NAV for sale. No response. The S-NAV was sold. He's miffed that Richard never bothered to reply: "one less customer for the future". [editorial comment: the old adage about "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" has never tried to do business with a glider pilot]

Multiple pilots: There's a massive amount of email out there to track. And Richard's a very conscientious guy.

Richard at Craggy Aero: Apologizes, noting politely that he tried emailing twice (and, helpfully, to which address) but Andrew's ISP rejected it both times. The S-NAV is, indeed, sold.

Another "helpful" pilot: Email problems are common, Andrew. You're overreacting, especially since there's no financial harm and it was your ISP that bounced the emails.

Andrew: Apparently unsatisfied with the responses he's getting (sound familiar?), blasts Richard for publicizing his actual email address and protests that he doesn't use spam filters and has never not received emails before [which I assume means that no one had ever emailed him and, not receiving a response, posted or telephoned him to ask why]. He then lauds Tim Mara (!!!! No, I'm not making this up!) for having been exceptional in past dealings. So despite satisfied customers springing to Craggy Aero's defense, Richard's response has ensured that Andrew will not be among them. So there.

More responses:

- Having a bad day, Andrew?

- My experience has always been great with Richard.

- And from Glidergeek: a tongue-in-cheek (?) complaint about how Tim Mara always lists used instruments that never seem to be available.

Sarcasm? Or has Glidergeek been waiting NINE (9) years to stick it to Tim for the Sage CVA he missed? That's right; this is from 2004. Oooh, the drama continues! :)

The soaring weather is arriving so hopefully moods will lighten, egos will return to normal size, and we can get back to making jokes about the software developers who arrogantly claim their applications are superior to all others yet cheerfully profess ignorance of the U.S. competition rules.

[Papa3]

On Friday, March 29, 2013 12:05:25 PM UTC-4, chip.b...@gmail.com wrote:
> If you're still bothering with this thread, you've gotta read this:
>
>
>
> Saw Glidergeek's "waaah waaah" response (I don't always understand cryptic, unsigned posts but I guess I get the message here, Russ). Just for grins, I did a few checks. If you liked Bob DeLeon's irate "consumer warnings" about Wings & Wheels, you'll LOVE this one (summarized):
>
>

> > Chip Bearden
>
> ASW 24 "JB"
>
> U.S.A.

Yo Chip,

There's a whole cottage industry (okay - not so "cottage" anymore) around customer sentiment analysis and management. Maybe we can get a couple of the aforementioned programmers to dump 10 years worth of R.A.S and see if they can parse the text to discern any obvious trends on either side (reviewers or reviewees). Maybe they can be ready by next Winter. Should make for some fun viewing.

In the meantime, this thread reminded me to call Tim - I need some updates to the panel.

P3

[Bill Palmer]

I am the developer of Glidersource.com

I started working on this platform about two years ago at the urging of some others. We saw the W&W ad pages (10 pages of unsorted, center-justified, one photo, limited info ads), and other classified sites at the time as something that could be vastly improved upon.

Paul Remde of Cumulus Soaring, Inc., provided moral support (but no other affiliation) and replaced his own manually-operated classified effort with links to GliderSource.com.

In the early days, I (regretfully) wrote to some of the folks advertising their aircraft there to let them know of an ADDITIONAL source to list, that would allow more text, more photos, embedded video, contact feature, hit counter, search capabilities, 24/7 self-post & edit, and other modern web goodies.
I got a lot of thank you's and ONE objection, in Sept of '11.

I've never "scrapped" ads of of his site, and I can't speak about any accusations that anyone else has either. The worst I did was send some sellers a single email. Considering the email traffic these days, it seemed pretty harmless.

Tim responded by creating or enforcing his W&W-Only policy (as mentioned, it's still not possible to tell he has such a policy without testing the waters).
Tim emailed the folks who posted their ad in both places and, well, let them know that they won't be in two places any more. Tim did not contact me, but when a dozen sailplanes fell off my site in one day and I made inquiries why, it didn't take long for someone to forward me the email that Tim sent to him. At that I stopped the direct-email campaign and apologized, including to Tim.

I contacted Tim hoping we soaring-community folks could all "play nice" together, and even offered to do some web programming to help his site be more user and owner friendly. ( Tim told me he spends "hundreds of hours" on his classified ads. That's because he gets the photos by email, has to crop and resize, create the copy, post in a web page and manually do all this work rotating his 10 or more classified ad pages around. All that is automatic on my site.) Tim declined the offer.

Tim obviously has a vested interest in keeping his want ads as THE go-to place, as the classified site is at the doorstep to his store. That's fine, how could anyone object to that? I think what people object to is that the free market is not part of that plan, since his advertisers are constrained from posting on places Tim doesn't like. Ever heard of a newspaper the won't let you advertise on craigslist too?

I've had more than one person tell me first hand that when posting an glider ad on W&W Tim delayed posting the ad a few days while offering the seller less himself. Now, I can't swear that happened, because it didn't happen to me directly, but why would someone make that up?

My interest was to for there to be a classified ad site that was highly functional, easy to use, and that users could post ANYTHING soaring related. Last I checked W&W was aircraft and parts only. As of today GliderSource.com has 38 ads for instruments, 7 for soaring equipment, and a smattering in other categories, including sailplanes and motorgliders, and 9 wanted ads.

Knowing of Tim's policy, I felt it fair to advise my potential advertisers, before they go to the effort to create an ad only to have it shot down by T.M. So, without mentioning W&W, since that might seem like I was talking bad about it, I have the following notice on my home page:
- - - - -
What if I already have my item listed on another site?

Successful advertisers across many industries place their ads in many places, not just one. All soaring related ads are welcome here. But, a prominent glider classified provider does not appreciate this effort for glider and motorglider ads. Check with your current ad carrier to see if he requires exclusive handling of your ad. I think competition improves the market. What do you think?
- - - -

I'm still hoping that Tim will make the W&W ads easier to use (fewer pages, allow more info, more photos photos, sorted, search function, etc.) because he does have more sailplane ads than anywhere else. But it seems to me that as long as he's the 800 pound gorilla in the room, he doesn't feel he needs to improve his website to compete. (remember, I even offered to help him do it - I obviously have the software skills to do so).


In conclusion, it's hard to argue with Liam's posting:

[Kevin Christner]

Bill,

While I am sure many appreciate your efforts, since BobD has made such as issue of contracts, lets take a look at the one you broke by e-mailing people from Tim's want ads...

Bold Print: "These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for other aircraft dealers, Brokers, Resellers or Commercial vendors!"

Your site likely falls into the broker or reseller category. So you likely violated Tim's terms of service. Sorry, but true.

2C

[Glidergeek]

Chip I like Tim he always seem to have the items I need At the price I need and ships them when I need. I'll just have to remember if I ever sell my DG 600 I'll just have to list it on multiple sites using multiple names Different phone numbers different email addresses, I might even have to wear a disguise. I guess the moral of the story is if you own a website and you're letting people list gliders for free I guess you can set your own rules.

As far as the Sage vario in 2004? I don't remember that one, That was quite a few brain cells ago, If I was upset over something I guess I got glad again. If you know me you'll know that I'm a very cynical and sarcastic person, I own a trucking company and deal with about a dozen truck drivers, And I can be a real pain in the ass so sometimes I become very cynical and sarcastic. I get to hear all the whining one can stand, The difference between a two-year-old and a truck driver is........... The two-year-old eventually quits crying.
Waaaaaaaaaaaa I'm glad I'm now management Or am I?

Okay I'm done

Russ

[Eric Greenwell]

On 3/29/2013 6:10 PM, Kevin Christner wrote:
> Bill,
>
> While I am sure many appreciate your efforts, since BobD has made
> such as issue of contracts, lets take a look at the one you broke by
> e-mailing people from Tim's want ads...
>
> Bold Print: "These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for
> other aircraft dealers, Brokers, Resellers or Commercial vendors!"
>
> Your site likely falls into the broker or reseller category. So you
> likely violated Tim's terms of service. Sorry, but true.

I disagree. Offering free ads to people who have posted an ad on what
appears to be a "free ad" website isn't brokering, because the host does
not get involved in the transaction - the host is just a publisher. It's
not reselling, either, as the host does not own the advertised glider in
any way - again, it's just publishing, like newspapers publish ads but
are not brokering or reselling.

By "appears to be a free ad website", I mean there was no apparent quid
pro quo between W&W and person advertising their glider; specifically,
W&W did not and _still_ does not state exclusivity is a condition for
hosting the ad. In fact, this sentence from the W&W website says there
is no compensation for the service.

"As always, there is never any charge for the listing and Wings & Wheels
does not request nor will accept any commission or compensation for this
service."

Personally, I believe requiring exclusivity _is_ compensation for the
service. So, while I believe BobD overreacted with his posting, I think
Tim triggered the issue by not making his policy clear at the start, and
is setting himself up for a repeat by still not listing his policy.

[Bill Palmer]

Kevin,

I didn't (and still don't) consider Glidersource.com to be an aircraft dealer, Broker, Reseller, or Commercial vendor. Doesn't much matter what the legal interpretation of it is, I was trying to help folks sell their gliders not piss them off, so I apologized and haven't emailed Tim's clients in over 18 months.

Aircraft dealer? definitely not.

Broker? "A broker is an individual or party (brokerage firm) that arranges transactions between a buyer and a seller, and gets a commission when the deal is executed. A broker who also acts as a seller or as a buyer becomes a principal party to the deal." Nope not quite. I don't arrange a transaction or collect a commission.

To be a reseller, I'd have to buy each item and then resell it. Obviously not what I'm doing.

Commercial vendor? I'm not selling anything, so not that either.

Glider pilot and hobby web developer trying to make a kick-ass classified web site we can all enjoy? Oh, yeah, that's the one!

Bill

[Andrzej Kobus]

Bill, what about putting a big Wing and Wheels add on you website for
free. Maybe that will solve a problem.

I agree Tim has the right to set his own rules, but I think the
community would benefit from a modern classified site like Bill's.

I buy from Tim not because I visit his classified site. I buy from him
because he has the best selection of things I need.

I sold my glider through his site. Thank you Tim. I sold my 302
through Bill's site. Thank you Bill. I would keep buying from Tim even
if I placed my add somewhere else simply because Tim always has things
I need. I mean ALWAYS.

[son_of_flubber]

I think the status quo is fine. Tim's approach is a bit dated, but it worked well for me.

But times are changing and "Information wants to be free".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_wants_to_be_free

It is just a matter of time before some young blood takes up soaring, evaluates the status quo, and with absolutely no compunction decides to set up a master compilation website on an offshore server.

That website will scrape ALL of the ads for gliders from ALL of the sites that accept ads. It will catch on fast because it will be the definitive master list of gliders for sale, and it will have a lot of the modern features that we see on a site like glidersource.com

That website will not accept ads from sellers, so it will not be possible to punish someone for posting. There may be legal IP issues, but those are rather difficult to enforce, and easy to sidestep. To create a cash flow to cover expenses, that website will accept banner ads selected by Google. People buying gliders have disposable income and they are good prospects for a variety of high priced products.

I'm old fashioned about intellectual property and so I would never do this, but you know... kids these days.

If the person behind Glidersource had not made the mistakes of 1)accepting ads and 2)personally identifying himself, we would already be seeing this master list of gliders for sale.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Wow! With barely 24 hours to go, "Soaring Community Consumer Warning" appears to be the most popular RAS posting in the month of March, with nearly 2,000 views! This proves once again that soaring may be minuscule compared to the real world but our controversies are truly world class.

There are two other threads with postings that also occurred this month (albeit on 1 March) but they both began well before: "Turn coordinator? How dare they!" (2,000+ views) and, of course, "FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition" with an astounding 4,648 views!

I recall a time when the only real way of reaching the soaring community in this country was by paying for a classified ad in Soaring magazine--which required mailing (via the post) or electronically communicating (via a land line phone call to the SSA's receptionist -- hahaha) the ad copy 45 days or more in advance. Today you can list or accept a glider ad one day and wake up the next morning having been demonized and/or defended several times over on this forum.

It seems clear there's little money to be made in classified ads now. Entrepreneurs are using free ads to entice pilots to existing sites that sell soaring equipment or to build traffic for new sites, the owners of which presumably are motivated, in addition to public service, by at least the dream of someday monetizing the eyeballs.

I'll attempt to close this out with a few thoughts. If you're still reading this thread, obviously brevity isn't one of your criteria so I won't bother to apologize for carrying on. :)

1. When you have a successful business and a respected reputation, you're more likely to be able to impose terms and conditions on pilots who wish to list their gliders on your site.

2. Having a master "compiled list" of all glider ads would be pretty cool for those shopping for a used sailplane. Those trying to build such as list face at least three obstacles: (1) push back from the successful incumbents; (2) reluctance by pilots to jeopardize their ability to list on what's perceived to be the most popular site(s); and (3) some pesky legal issues.

To the latter point, "screen scraping" (lifting ads from one site to post on another) has been the subject of much legal skirmishing in the U.S. and abroad (Southwest Airlines has been particularly aggressive). There's no clear rule of thumb but it's my impression, ironically, that scraping ads from a site that requires exclusivity is treading on thinner ice.

3. Several have used the term "contract". I'm not a lawyer but the primary issue appears to be whether there's an agreement for the pilot to give up the right to list elsewhere in exchange for being allowed to list on the most popular site. If it were ever litigated, that would probably be considered compensation. Otherwise, there's no real contract here. You can complain that you were damaged by not being able to list your glider for free but you won't get much sympathy from the courts...or anyone else here, apparently. Tough crowd.

4. Much has been made of Tim Mara's not disclosing his policy of requiring exclusivity (if, in fact, that is the case universally or in isolated cases). I'm speculating but among other reasons may be that it might look a little heavy handed (although I think most pilots would understand) and that it does tend to create a contractual relationship wherein Tim takes on certain obligations as well: e.g., that the site will be up at all times, that the ads will read as communicated to him, that the photos will be displayed attractively, and that ads will not be positioned badly (e.g., too deep in the listings, in the wrong category, or directly next to an identical glider being sold for much less money). If this were the music business, there'd be lawyers swarming all over us. Instead, the only intense scrutiny seems to be from those who detect a conspiracy within the Rules Committee to disenfranchise the Club Class or owners of iPhones and the like.

5. There are some IP (intellectual property) issues. I'm not an expert here, either, but to the extent that a site owner puts some time and effort into building a classified area and then creates/edits the ads in it, he/she probably has some IP rights that would be infringed upon by anyone attempting to use those ads elsewhere.

6. Speaking of creating and editing ads, I noted with interest the bafflement of one earnest software developer that Tim spurned his offer of free software consulting to improve the W&W site. To me, this is a classic example of an IT guy genuinely wanting to "help" the business guy by taking a well-understood, easily maintained application that does the job pretty well and replacing it with a site that, while demonstrably better, the user can no longer maintain without the IT's guy's help. Big businesses long ago admitted defeat and turned over their systems to IT specialists. The reaction of soaring equipment site owners who currently maintain them personally or with a trusted friend or family member (or teenager) aren't necessarily ready to change, especially when the help is offered by someone who's just created a competitive site. And I can't blame them. Nor should you, Bill.

7. There's lots of room for creative solutions to the problems people have raised. Tim could cut a deal with the other site owners. Or he could make sure pilots had to come to his site to get the best info on a glider, by requiring a click thru for the price or full info or by offering a small promotional item with gliders purchased off his site (e.g., a new ClearNav flight computer with CNv vario with all the accessories). :) Perhaps out of the nearly 2,000 times this thread has been viewed will come a happy one that pleases everyone. Hey, it could happen!

[Sean F (F2)]

Wow. This thread is what I call "circling the wagons."

No mention of such a policy is mentioned on the website. It is just very poor business to hang up on a customer and I find it hilarious how the "regulars" come to the aid of their dear friend so blatantly and dramatically. It almost brought a tear to my eye hearing the stories. if you listen to it with some sappy music you'll be balling your eyes out.

Obviously Tim was highly unpleasant to deal with if the result was this thread.

Tim is a nice guy (and always has been to me) but IMO he is wrong for treating a customer(s?) so poorly when there is no stated policy stated on his website. Clearly he does not want to publicize this policy or he would do so. If something is so important to him that he would pull an ad it then should be clearly stated on his website for all to see.

Wings and Wheels has been popular for want ads but it is not the only choice. But sure he can do whatever he wants...

Overall, I would say this thread has, unfortunately, been a bit damaging. Obviously not to the regulars, but maybe to the softer spoken folks who do not know the people involved. I don't think many customers want to be told post with me only or ill hammer you. Soaring cafe is not competitive. The other one must be a threat if he is so concerned as to take such drastic action and ruin his relationship with a customer and likely many others...

Tim...here is a funny clip Ill call "lighten up Francis!" Just sayin... ;-)

http://youtu.be/0OnpkDWbeJs

[Sean F (F2)]

I am going to destroy all of these want ads sites in 1 week. Here it goes...

[Sean F (F2)]

All, please feel welcomed to add your for sale equipment to a new Facebook page called "Free International Sailplane Want Ads."

You are welcomed to have your ad on any other similar website or just ours. You are welcomed to share your ad with any other Facebook user, via Facebook, or email or twitter or whatever.

Please join this new page and please share it with your soaring friends!

Here is the link: https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneWantAds

Enjoy!

Sean
F2

[Sean F (F2)]

Interesting. I noticed that a recent RAS post (copied below, or link here: https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?fromgroups#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/OK8wPduHU-U) by glidersource.com included what I imagine is Bill Elliot's JS-1b. But if you click the link you can see that it is removed. This post was from March 7. So it has been removed in the past few weeks.

I imagine Bill (owner of soaring cafe) was recently strong armed in much the same way as the originator of this thread. Hilarious. This is just too funny.

Let the soaring want ad wars begin!

EN GARDE!

--------------------------------------------------------
Items listed alphabetically within each category.

*** Sailplane ***
Blanik L13 LZ12, (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=250 ) (photo)
Jonkers Sailplanes, JS-1B 18m, $139,900 (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=288 ) (photo)
L-23 Wingtip Extensions, $800 (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=209 ) (photo)
Lak12 LZ 615, (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=252 ) (photo)
Libelle Canopy, $ (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=210 ) (photo)
Nimbus 2B, $24000 (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=314 ) (photo)
Schweizer SGS 1-35 ("ZT"). S/N 30. , $ (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=244 ) (photo)
SZD.41.A Jantar Std. LZ604 , (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=251 )
T65C VEGA SPORT, £11500 (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=273 ) (photo)

[Sean F (F2)]

http://soaringcafe.com/classified-ads/browse-categories/2/sailplanes-for-sale/?offset=0&category_id=2&results=30

No Ad for Bills own JS1 on his own website, soaring cafe.

I wonder if W&W has been sending out strong men to shake down people who post ads in trade a plane too?

:-)

LOL!!!! ROTFL!!!!!!

[Bill Palmer]

Bill and any other advertiser are free to turn their glidersource.com ads on and off at their discretion at any time, for any reason they choose. Maybe because they're going on vacation, maybe because they want to conduct some marketing research, maybe because a sale is pending.
Adds turned off (or "paused" as I call it), can be turned back on without loss of content, emailing anyone, or having to comply with a world-domination policy.

Sean: Am I surprized Tim didn't take me up on the web programming offer? No, but it was sincere, nonetheless. Still, for the sake of sailplane shoppers, I hope he can figure out a way to sort, index, or categorize the nine or more pages of aircraft ads.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Sean, it appears Wings & Wheels is alone in sometimes requesting exclusivity for glider sellers who want to post their ads for free. So just what is it that will have glider sellers rushing eagerly to list their gliders on your new facebook.com/SailplaneWantAds site, in the process "destroy[ing] all of these want ads sites in 1 week"? Those who were already using one or more of these sites aren't going to remove their other listings. And anyone who chooses to list on Wings & Wheels anyway could care less what you do.

Maybe I'm missing something, but with the possible exception of Wings & Wheels, it seems like the biggest difference between your new Facebook site and Soaring Cafe, GliderSource, et al., is that all of the others have established reputations whereas yours is backed by...you.

ROFL!!!!!

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Hang onto your day job.

This thread passed 2,100 views sometime today making it the most popular RAS thread in the month of March. This says something about our sport; I'm just not sure what. ;)

[Bill Palmer]

Sean,
I'd be interested to know if Tim will apply his world-pad-dominatin policy to your facebook page too. Why don't you ask him?

[Sean F (F2)]

Lets just say a seed has been planted. And the power of Facebook and social media for selling an item is something that most of you are not fully aware of.

Lets just say that I'm pretty happy about the chances of a Facebook method for selling gliders becoming very popular.

Lets also say that the fact that nobody in the sport of soaring understands how to use social media channels is hilariously obvious. The sport of soaring is predictably stuck in the 90's in terms of its web marketing and websites including the various want ad sites. None of them use social media in the slightest because they do not understand the value of it. They think static websites are "good enough" and cling to what they know...unable to adapt.

Anyhow. So far I have about 6 minutes invested in my Facebook want ads page. Give it a week, a month, 6 months and a year.

Then lets see if your still a smart ass ;-).

Happy soaring and of course happy "selling" my fellow glider pilots.

Ciao!

[Sean F (F2)]

Me thinks ;-) someone needs to consider apologize for a very poor policy, very poor treatment of some customers and move past this. Do the right thing rather than have your buddies try to explain your very rude behavior away as "good business."

Before it gets any further out of hand. It's spring, soaring season is amping up and everyone is on RAS, talking via phone, email, in person at glider clubs and (of course) on the social sites...

Just sayin...

[Eric Greenwell]

On 4/1/2013 5:39 AM, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> Lets just say that I'm pretty happy about the chances of a Facebook
> method for selling gliders becoming very popular.
>
> Lets also say that the fact that nobody in the sport of soaring
> understands how to use social media channels is hilariously obvious.

There seems to be a contradiction in these two statements...

[Dan Marotta]

Learn to spell Sean, and, while you're at it, take a class in grammar.

"...balling my eyes out..." Sheesh.

Most of us who are "stuck in the 90s" have no need to buried in a cell phone
for validation.


"Sean F (F2)" <smfi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:07002609-8a5b-4221...@googlegroups.com...

[herbk...@gmail.com]

Thanks so very much Sean for pointing out to the poor old fogeys in US Soaring that we are hopelessly out of touch with 'social media' and that - gasp - some of us are still talking on the phone to each other! We are surely blessed to have someone of your generation to flog us mercilessly into understanding that.
There's actually a UK TV series that my grandkids love that is dedicated to a person of your smarts (listen to the lyrics, folks, sing along). I'll get into trouble for this, but here it goes...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtfb4m6xGCA

If I was younger and less mature I would finish with: just sayin...

[BobD]

Bill Palmer: THANK YOU for Glidersource.com. My Genesis 2 is now online in your classifieds with all the details. Good interface, easy to use, the way it ought to be. Including being use-policy clear and unconditionally "User Friendly" on all fronts. This is how you benefit the soaring community.

[Bill Palmer]

Of course, there is this one: http://www.facebook.com/GliderSource
and the twitter feed: http://twitter.com/GliderSource
and an rss feed http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?action=rss
and email subscriptions of new listings
and the SQL/CGI powered web page (not static)

[Bill Palmer]

Thanks Bob, my pleasure.
I see you've posted 3 nice photos and linked to your FLICKR.com collection for quite a few more nice ones!
Everybody should go check that out!
http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=332

[Sean F (F2)]

Bill, I'm sure the Facebook Soaring Want Ads page is high on the Wings and Wheels "black list." But there is probably a fair chance the individual in question is unwilling to use Facebook so maybe we can get away with "cheating on W&W!" Absolutely hilarious.

And to the few frustrated folks who have been reduced to complaining about grammar and spelling errors associated with cell phone typing while in a cab, literally, (wait for it...................), kiss my ass.

If forum posts on topics such as "soaring supply vendors making a conscious, public effort to control the "lucrative" want ads market" was worth the time it takes to correct cell phone typing errors I would probably do so. Unfortunately for you it is not. I could not care less.. Obviously you cannot argue against my points, so you try and point out spelling errors like little school girls.

I suggest staying focused on a the very poor treatment of customers and the lack of any such written conditions on said site regarding said policy.

I suggest that people avoid any vendor with such ridiculous business practices (written or unwritten) unless said apologizes publicly and/or ends said policy via a written statement on said website in a timely manner.

Cheers.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Bill has some good ideas and is well on the way to implementing them. And Sean has raised some valid questions, too (the law of averages at work here).

Leveraging social media may make sense but as a digital business consultant myself (albeit a hopelessly elderly and senile one), one of my first questions for a client who's dead set on using social media ("We must have social media; the CEO wants it") is: what do you want to accomplish? If the set of potential buyers is very small and they predictably all consult the same few sites to see the same very small number of "for sale" glider ads, how can we add value through social media, value that can't be added in other ways. Otherwise, we risk the old "it's a solution looking for a problem" scenario.

A simple Facebook feed is messy; e.g., GliderSource's Facebook ads are interspersed with news items in chronological (not category) order because they're posted to a timeline. It's easy to find the most recent ads (also on GliderSource.com itself) but not so easy to find a specific type of glider. Plus it appears there's no expire function: 6 of the first 10 ads I clicked displayed "Sorry, The ad you are looking for (item name) is no longer available," forcing me to close the new window in each case and go back to browsing. Not all bad (though nicer than Bill's new competitor Sean's Facebook page) but still probably not going to "destroy" every other soaring want ad site in a year, much less a week.

I'd also venture to say that most pilots looking for a used glider don't even know what an RSS feed is, for example, though I think it's great that Bill (sorry for picking on him--I like most things about his site) offers a lot of choices for communicating information to potential buyers. If I were in the market for a new/used glider--which I have been, on average, every 15-20 years, I'd definitely go to the GliderSource site to look. That's because I suspect there are some gliders there that aren't on the Wings & Wheels site. We know there's one (Bob's Genesis) although, interestingly, it's also on Soaring Cafe's site. So if that's true across the board, why would I need to go to both of those sites? Hmmm.

On the other hand, I'd HAVE to go to Wings & Wheels because that site has ads that don't appear elsewhere. Ironically, Tim has done the rest of his competitors a huge favor: i.e., their sites (or at least some of them) will be visited by interested buyers because there is no single site that holds every listing. Because of this, some of these guys are smart enough to shut up and not try to shame or browbeat Tim into changing his alleged policy. :)

If I were selling a glider--which I do about as often as I buy one--I would probably just put it up on Tim's site, for the same reason: it's the one site I know people will visit because it has "original content"; i.e., stuff they won't find anywhere else.

Would I regret or resent that Tim might not allow me to post my ad elsewhere? [he has never responded to this thread so we don't really know what his policy is] Maybe. Having more placements out there is better for the seller. But would I try to harangue him into allowing me to do something he didn't permit on his free site and lecture him about how much better it would be for the soaring community and how it's rude and stupid to do otherwise? I used to try this with my parents. They didn't hang up on me but I suspect they wanted to once or twice. :)

Sorry guys, but since we weren't on the phone call between Tim and Bob, we don't really know what went down and who, if anyone, was "rude" to whom.

At least Tim doesn't condescend to us, telling us how we're so hopelessly backward that we can't possibly understand the brilliance of his ideas (or refute them). Actually, soaring comprises a great bunch of people. I can't imagine anyone doing that. Certainly I can't imagine anyone on this forum responding to valid criticism with "kiss my ass".

Well, maybe one or two. :)

[Sean F (F2)]

Chip, lets wait a year and see what my 6 minutes (and 20 minutes a week) becomes...

Good luck on your business.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

I agree, Sean (I feel so WRONG about saying that!). Time will tell.

I suspect none of these sites will look the same way in a year. I do think there's a tendency for some to look at technology for its own sake, especially many in the self-selected group that participates on RAS.

On the other hand, the newer sites do offer more functionality (DIY ad creation/upload, multiple photos, links, buyer search, alerts of various sorts). Not all sellers may think that's a plus, or even know how to avail themselves of these features. And adding them to Tim's site would require time and investment that he may not want to make. But in the interim, he may not have to. Because of his tenure and rich history and the relationship he has with a lot of us, he probably doesn't get a lot of push back from sellers if, indeed, he truly has an unwritten exclusivity condition.

And as I said, that actually works to the advantage of both his site AND the other sites.

Buyers may not feel the same way. And if and when there are so many gliders for sale that they begin to complain loudly about not having a true multiple listing service, the market may force changes. But buyers have been complaining for years about the lack of an MLS in New York City and real estate brokers/agents are just fine with it.

Technology is not a goal; it's a means to an end. It is useful to solve problems and to create competitive advantage. The used sailplane market is a lot more like selling one-of-a-kind luxury apartments in New York City than searching for discounted airline fares on Kayak, digital DSLRs on eBay, or the latest books on Amazon. So we may be stuck in the Dark Ages for a while longer. :)

[6PK]

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:34:09 AM UTC-7, BobD wrote:
> I like many others understand that the glider community is small, and perhaps getting smaller. In trying to sell my glider, I placed an ad on Tim Mara's Wings and Wheels. He states on his website that he offers this for free to help the community. Or so I thought.
>
>
>
> Selling a glider is a difficult task, especially in this economy and to a niche interest group. As for me, I'm buying a new glider and need funding from the sale of my present ship. I do all this on a tight budget. So letting the soaring community know about my offering is a marketing effort of importance and I know that to be successful, I need to cover the bases. Not everyone will see an ad in one given location. Coverage is the issue.
>
>
>
> I've placed the same advertising offering on SoaringCafe.com's marketplace page. I used the same information there as I did on Wings and Wheels. I've also put the same details here on RAS, and I will likely put them on the SSA paid website marketing pages and anywhere else I feel is appropriate for seeking buyers. I simply want to sell my glider.
>
>
>
> I've been a customer of Tim's and have spent a lot of money with his enterprise. Which is why I was stunned when he emailed me back saying I cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings and Wheels if I didn't discontinue the SoaringCafe ad. His message was "I don't allow it"...period.
>
>
>
> Why would someone who should know the value of a customer, and the small scale of our community, do that? Anyone know why? When I called him he was indignant and said the policy was in his reply email to me AFTER the ad went up. Such a policy is not stated ANYWHERE on his website. It makes no sense since SoaringCafe is not in competition with Wings and Wheels other than advertising other vendors, who pay for that visibility. SoaringCafe's web presence it different.
>
>
>
> Tim notified me yesterday that the ad was being removed since I hadn't complied with his demand (24 hours after making it). In calling him to discuss it, he was indignant with me, refused to listen, and hung up. Nice going Tim, you just lost a customer who will now exercise his consumer rights and inform the community of your detrimental decision that undermines my effort to sell my glider. And yes, I will use the internet bully pulpit to let the community know of your attitude towards that community. Hats of to SoaringCafe and goodbye to Wings and Wheels. Honoring and valuing your customers doesn't seem to be in Tim's business plan. I can't think of a worse business attitude.
>
>
>
> Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and work with you.
>
>
>
> Bob DeLeon
>
> Glider pilot and owner since 1997

It is too darn hard to complain about something free; after all the price is right. On the other hand if one pays for it?.........

[Dan Marotta]

Sean, this will be my last conversation with you as you seem to be slightly
unstable. In reply to your invitation about kissing, I can only reply, "Go
f**k yourself." You're a miserable pissant who's so full of himself that
you're worth no more effort.

"Sean F (F2)" <smfi...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:70992886-04fc-4977...@googlegroups.com...

[bruced...@gmail.com]

So when do we learn that this thread was just a brilliant marketing ploy by all the glider ad sites. Remember how we got Classic Coke?

[Ernst]

This is the best RAS thread ever! Keep the high quality comments coming.
What else?
Oh, what about get in your gliders that you purchased from wherever and have a good flight.

Thank you.

[Bill Palmer]

Just a couple of notes in regards to the points that Chip brings up:
Facebook page
It certainly has its limits. I don't even attempt to post all the info, just a teaser usually the title and subtitle of the item (most is caught by the auto-posting link available on each ad's page), and maybe some other info (e.g., price) thrown in. It's all manual (ugh!) and not sortable, just a jumble. A facebook page doesn't make a good database. Granted I haven't even attempted to keep up with the ads that are taken down for whatever reason (sold, etc). BUT, if somebody's following GS on Facebook they can get an advisory when I post something new, and maybe they'll come and check it out.

Technology for technology sake.
The technology I use is a tool to provide the functions that I wanted. User friendly self posting and edit, automatic photo resizing, displaying the number of ads in each category, contact/messaging feature, detailed hit counters, anti-spam, video embedding, sorting, searching, building that cool google map (ok, I did that one just for fun), and management of the site with minimal manual daily work. It's like being on autopilot. It does everything pretty much automatically, I just have to monitor it, talk on the radio, and tweak the heading knob every once in a while.

RSS Feed
I know most people don't know what that its. That's OK. But it is another way for folks to see what's the most recent entries on glidersource.com. If they use a reader to read other feeds (e.g., news, etc) then it might work well for them. The feed is generated automatically whenever the user's reader calls the URL. So, once the programming for that was done, it's all hands off. I am NOT hand coding xml with every new listing, please!

Tim's site is the 800 pound gorilla in the glider ad category. Oh well. But I think you'll find that glidersource.com has the most comprehensive list of instruments, equipment, and other non-aircraft stuff (over 60 items at this time). I would assume that providing free ads for these items would conflict with "the retail operation", plus all the extra manual work.

>> (Bob's Genesis)[on glidersource.com] although, interestingly, it's also on Soaring Cafe's site<<
I don't see this as some kind of incongruency.
Bill Elliot, of Soaring Cafe, and I have conversed on several occasions and we support each other's efforts. We're both about helping folks buy and sell their stuff. Like I say on my home page: "Successful advertisers across many industries place their ads in many places, not just one." I think SC has its own niche audience (more contest oriented from my experience). I don't happen to care for the Wordpress plugin's format and paging that SC uses, so I wrote mine to work how I like. But neither of us are going to complain about an ad being on more than one website, much less checking to be sure they're not.

RE:Ernst "Oh, what about get in your gliders that you purchased from wherever and have a good flight. "
I did go flying today! My first 1-26 flight. 10 ads posted automatically to glidersource.com while I was out there. Everything from tires to barographs - check it out at: http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?action=recent

[Evan Ludeman]

Money quote:

"I did go flying today! My first 1-26 flight. 10 ads posted automatically to glidersource.com while I was out there."

Well done, Bill. I like your site.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Sean F (F2)]

https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneWantAds

100 likes and 1200 views in 2 days.

Free. No requirements at all.

Feel welcomed to post your for sale ad here. I suggest copying and pasting any other ad you have into your Facebook picture submission. You can even include a link to other ads such as glidersource or soaring cafe. I would also suggest adding a link to the Facebook glider want ads post to those ad sites. People can then easily like or share or comment about the ad to friends which is a very powerful capability in making the decision to buy something as important as a glider. These prospective buyers also can easily contact you about your glider via Facebook. Also very powerful...

Perhaps the light bulbs are flickering for some of you who don't get social media marketing? :-). One can hope...

Enjoy!

[Craig R.]

I would like to point out some obvious facts. First, 25 years ago we didn’t have the Internet & Facebook. We had the Soaring magazine, newspaper classified ads and Trade-a-plane. Technology improved and today we have all of these sources (and more). 25 years from now there will be more of the same. Change. Some formats will disappear and new ones will take their place. Personally, I don’t think Facebook is particularly effective selling tool because it isn’t designed as such. That doesn’t mean that tomorrow Facebook won’t change a bit to make it a great place to source or advertise product. Time will tell.

I will wade in on the comments about the soaring community telling a small businessman how to run his/her business. Soaring is a very niche market. We aren’t talking Walmart or used cars here. These folks derive their livelihood from selling products. If they can generate additional traffic through their “store” and increase sales by requiring exclusivity on used glider for sale ads, I’m all for it. That is being creative. And speaking of used cars, how many of you think you should be able to go to single source and see all used car offerings? Yet you are demanding this for gliders? All I can say is wow (add adjectives describing negative aspects of human behavior).

DWI (Navy SEAL lingo for deal with it) and then go buy a glider.

[BobD]

If they can generate additional traffic through their “store” and increase sales by requiring exclusivity on used glider for sale ads, I’m all for it. That is being creative.

Craig: it's being creative IF the exclusivity requirement is stated UP FRONT and not invoked AFTER compliance with the actual stated policy.

Go back a read the incident facts. Here's to hoping you don't have a vendor change the deal to suit themselves and their "creative" version of exclusivity after you, in good faith and understanding, complied with the original version. I'm so sure you'll take that as fair and equitable business on their part and depart with a smile on your face.

[Eric Greenwell]

On 4/2/2013 8:59 AM, Craig R. wrote:
> If they can generate additional traffic through their �store� and

> increase sales by requiring exclusivity on used glider for sale ads,

> I�m all for it.

"IF" is the operative word here. How often do glider pilots buy or sell
a used glider? The last time I did that was 18 years ago, and I didn't
advertise anywhere but our regional newsletter, finally selling it to an
out-of-state friend by word-of-mouth. A lot more people, like me, buy
instruments, soaring computers, tape, tires, and other stuff every year,
and Tim's used glider ads aren't getting us to his site.

Personally, I like Tim, and I've bought things from him for many years,
but his site is the last place I go when I'm looking for stuff. It's
worse than unattractive because of the slapped together, multi-colored
"style", and hard to read with everything center-justified. A few
times, when I really wanted to peruse a page, I've put the page into an
html editor so I could re-format it before it made me nuts.

I think Tim is focusing on a tree (exclusive glider ads) and not the
forest (his overall business). I hope he finds somebody with the ability
to design a website that's attractive and easy to use, then takes their
advice!

Next step: make it more informative. "Informative" is why I always start
at Cumulus Soaring, but Wings & Wheels doesn't have to match that, just
do better than now.

Finally, talk to that web person about website statistics, so he can see
how many people are coming to his site, what they are looking at, when
they bail out and when they complete a purchase instead. If it's
possible, he could start with statistics for his current site. It might
be a real eye-opener, and would also let him measure the changes in
traffic and the number buying.

My guess is lots of people click in but leave soon after. But why guess
when statistics are easy to get?

[Evan Ludeman]

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 11:59:28 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
> And speaking of used cars, how many of you think you should be able to go to single source and see all used car offerings? Yet you are demanding this for gliders?

Try it this way... if you list a car for sale on Craig's List do you expect to find your listing removed because you have also advertised it on ebay? Of course not.

T8

[Don Johnstone]

At 21:37 02 April 2013, Craig R. wrote:

>You may dislike what happened at W&W, but let's prioritize a bit on
>getting upset. This example is small potatoes.
>
You are right, 20 years ago this would have been small potatoes. Like it or
not we are in an age when what happens can be communicated to literally
millions of people very easily.You do not have to arouse media interest you
just post something on the internet.
Now I live in the UK so I have never ever had any contact with Wings and
Wheels and now I am never likely to. At best the proprietor comes over as
someone more concerned with himself than his customers and the number of
people that know this increases exponetially. Agree most of them won't care
a jot but a small business, and W&W is a small business, relies on cash
flow and even the loss of a few customers can be serious.
Of course someone has the right to run their business how they see fit but
they have to appreciate that upsetting one customer does not mean that just
that one customer knows any more.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, April 3, 2013 8:15:26 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:

> Now I live in the UK so I have never ever had any contact with Wings and
> Wheels and now I am never likely to. At best the proprietor comes over as
> someone more concerned with himself than his customers and the number of
> people that know this increases exponetially.

Don, your post was disturbing enough that I feel compelled to jump in again. Most of us who know Tim like and respect him for the way he does business. From that admittedly biased perspective, I assumed that most readers would take away from this thread a favorable impression of him.

As I've said before, none of us were there for the original conversation and Tim hasn't offered his side of the story so we're limited in what we can infer. Or so I thought.

Tim and Wings & Wheels have been around a long time. I had his catalog for years before his Web site went up displaying a comprehensive array of soaring products--with attractive prices--including used items. At one time, I was building solo-rigging wingstands, many of which I sold through Tim's site. So I have prior history not only as a customer but also as a vendor. He also sold a few used items for me on consignment. In every respect I found him to be not only ethical and fair but willing--correction: eager--to help pilots get what they need, even when he didn't always make money. It may sound strange given Bob DeLeon's complaint but I've always viewed Tim as a guy who thinks about long-term customer relationships more than any specific transaction.

I wish Tim would recount his side of this because I suspect there's more here than has been said. For example, I might ask Bob if he and Tim ever had previous disagreements or misunderstandings. In other words (by innuendo), could Tim have considered Bob a "troublesome" customer, one not worth keeping? But I try hard not to play those sorts of games. :) Besides, as the trial lawyers say in situations like this, never ask a question to which you don't already know the answer. More on lawyers later.

From a pure business perspective, Tim's site feels--and is--dated. In e-commerce terms, it's beyond a refresh; it could use a complete redesign. But does it "need" it today? I don't know. It has a lot of merchandise for sale. But it's not self service regarding glider ads, although not everyone will view that as a negative. It's also not as informative and helpful as the Cumulus Soaring site, for example. Paul Remde has done an amazing job of creating very helpful comparisons, integration guides, suggested systems, etc. I suspect some pilots refer to his guides, then shop for the best prices on his site and others. I won't get into the ethics of that; this thread has gone on too long already!

Tim is a great source of information, too, but much of it--as a few have noted--is in his head; e.g., the query I had a while ago about a U.S. source for wheels to fit older Cobra/Komet trailers: Tim knew that the full-size spare wheels in an old U.S. Chrysler econobox car--perhaps available in pristine condition at a junkyard--fit perfectly.

I agree that times have changed and eventually W&W will have to change or lose business. That's part of the free enterprise system. So is running a business the way you want. So is having the freedom to impose some conditions--at any time--on free services you provide so long as those conditions don't harm anyone. As Sean and Bill have pointed out, it's absurdly easy to post your ad to another site. In fact, Bob's ad on another site was already posted when Tim took down the ad on W&W. So he was hardly inconvenienced so much as offended.

Despite all the words Bob has used, including references to "contract", "deal", "harm", "vendor", "good faith" and "fair and equitable", there never was anything in place other than Tim's agreement to display Bob's ad for free--for as long as he felt like it. And the only way Bob was "harmed" is that he didn't get to post his free ad in quite as many places as he wanted. His frequent complaints that something underhanded occurred, something that warranted posting a "warning" to the soaring community, are baseless. Raising this to the level of a "consumer warning" was unethical, in my opinion. The evidence is clear now that at least some pilots have been dissuaded from doing business with Wings & Wheels and that is not only unfair, it's wrong.

[I'm not a lawyer, but if Wings & Wheels were a big player in a much larger market and it turns out that Bob "enhanced" his story a bit to make his case stronger, I'd speculate that he left himself open to a lawsuit. His actions were clear, his motive to punish Wings & Wheels is obvious, and the damages have already started to accumulate.]

As others have said about Bob's original ad: it was free. If he didn't like the terms and conditions, he could (and already did) go someplace else. He shouldn't have whined on this forum and accused a guy of something borderline unethical just because he apparently (and I use that word cautiously since I wasn't there) lectured Tim about what he was doing wrong and Tim hung up on him. Frankly, I probably would have, too. I'm not as patient as Tim is.

To the extent this has been a discussion about e-commerce trends in the soaring world, it's been interesting. But I can't believe we've spent so much time debating whether Tim did something wrong. The very first few posters got it right: he didn't, as far as I can tell. And I'm upset that even one additional person (besides Bob) might think so.

We're up to nearly 3,000 views!!! Unbelievably it's now the THIRD-MOST-POPULAR thread for at least the past 6 months, trailing only Best Performing Vario and the U.S. Club Class Petition. And still growing, although I wonder if Sean constantly re-reading his posts in narcissistic fashion has inflated the statistics. :)

[Don Johnstone]

At 18:52 03 April 2013, chip.b...@gmail.com wrote:
>On Wednesday, April 3, 2013 8:15:26 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
>
>> Now I live in the UK so I have never ever had any contact with Wings
and
>> Wheels and now I am never likely to. At best the proprietor comes over
as
>> someone more concerned with himself than his customers and the number
of

>> people that know this increases exponetially.=20

>
>Don, your post was disturbing enough that I feel compelled to jump in

>again=
>.. Most of us who know Tim like and respect him for the way he does
>business=
>.. From that admittedly biased perspective, I assumed that most readers
>woul=

>d take away from this thread a favorable impression of him.
>
>As I've said before, none of us were there for the original conversation

>an=

>d Tim hasn't offered his side of the story so we're limited in what we
can

>=

>infer. Or so I thought.
>
>Tim and Wings & Wheels have been around a long time. I had his catalog
for

>=

>years before his Web site went up displaying a comprehensive array of

>soari=

>ng products--with attractive prices--including used items. At one time, I

>w=

>as building solo-rigging wingstands, many of which I sold through Tim's

>sit=

>e. So I have prior history not only as a customer but also as a vendor.
He

>=

>also sold a few used items for me on consignment. In every respect I
found

>=

>him to be not only ethical and fair but willing--correction: eager--to

>help=

> pilots get what they need, even when he didn't always make money. It may

>s=

>ound strange given Bob DeLeon's complaint but I've always viewed Tim as a

>g=

>uy who thinks about long-term customer relationships more than any

>specific=
> transaction.=20

>
>I wish Tim would recount his side of this because I suspect there's more

>he=

>re than has been said. For example, I might ask Bob if he and Tim ever
had

>=

>previous disagreements or misunderstandings. In other words (by
innuendo),

>=

>could Tim have considered Bob a "troublesome" customer, one not worth

>keepi=

>ng? But I try hard not to play those sorts of games. :) Besides, as the

>tri=

>al lawyers say in situations like this, never ask a question to which you

>d=

>on't already know the answer. More on lawyers later.
>
>From a pure business perspective, Tim's site feels--and is--dated. In

>e-com=

>merce terms, it's beyond a refresh; it could use a complete redesign. But

>d=

>oes it "need" it today? I don't know. It has a lot of merchandise for

>sale.=

> But it's not self service regarding glider ads, although not everyone

>will=

> view that as a negative. It's also not as informative and helpful as the

>C=

>umulus Soaring site, for example. Paul Remde has done an amazing job of

>cre=

>ating very helpful comparisons, integration guides, suggested systems,

>etc.=

> I suspect some pilots refer to his guides, then shop for the best prices

>o=

>n his site and others. I won't get into the ethics of that; this thread

>has=

> gone on too long already!
>
>Tim is a great source of information, too, but much of it--as a few have

>no=

>ted--is in his head; e.g., the query I had a while ago about a U.S.
source

>=

>for wheels to fit older Cobra/Komet trailers: Tim knew that the full-size

>s=

>pare wheels in an old U.S. Chrysler econobox car--perhaps available in

>pris=
>tine condition at a junkyard--fit perfectly.=20

>
>I agree that times have changed and eventually W&W will have to change or

>l=

>ose business. That's part of the free enterprise system. So is running a

>bu=

>siness the way you want. So is having the freedom to impose some

>conditions=

>--at any time--on free services you provide so long as those conditions

>don=

>'t harm anyone. As Sean and Bill have pointed out, it's absurdly easy to

>po=

>st your ad to another site. In fact, Bob's ad on another site was already

>p=

>osted when Tim took down the ad on W&W. So he was hardly inconvenienced
so

>=

>much as offended.
>
>Despite all the words Bob has used, including references to "contract",

>"de=

>al", "harm", "vendor", "good faith" and "fair and equitable", there never

>w=

>as anything in place other than Tim's agreement to display Bob's ad for

>fre=

>e--for as long as he felt like it. And the only way Bob was "harmed" is

>tha=

>t he didn't get to post his free ad in quite as many places as he wanted.

>H=

>is frequent complaints that something underhanded occurred, something
that

>=

>warranted posting a "warning" to the soaring community, are baseless.

>Raisi=

>ng this to the level of a "consumer warning" was unethical, in my
opinion.

>=

>The evidence is clear now that at least some pilots have been dissuaded

>fro=

>m doing business with Wings & Wheels and that is not only unfair, it's

>wron=
>g.=20

>
>[I'm not a lawyer, but if Wings & Wheels were a big player in a much

>larger=

> market and it turns out that Bob "enhanced" his story a bit to make his

>ca=

>se stronger, I'd speculate that he left himself open to a lawsuit. His

>acti=

>ons were clear, his motive to punish Wings & Wheels is obvious, and the

>dam=

>ages have already started to accumulate.]
>
>As others have said about Bob's original ad: it was free. If he didn't

>like=

> the terms and conditions, he could (and already did) go someplace else.

>He=

> shouldn't have whined on this forum and accused a guy of something

>borderl=

>ine unethical just because he apparently (and I use that word cautiously

>si=

>nce I wasn't there) lectured Tim about what he was doing wrong and Tim

>hung=

> up on him. Frankly, I probably would have, too. I'm not as patient as
Tim

>=

>is.
>
>To the extent this has been a discussion about e-commerce trends in the

>soa=

>ring world, it's been interesting. But I can't believe we've spent so
much

>=

>time debating whether Tim did something wrong. The very first few posters

>g=

>ot it right: he didn't, as far as I can tell. And I'm upset that even one

>a=

>dditional person (besides Bob) might think so.
>
>We're up to nearly 3,000 views!!! Unbelievably it's now the

>THIRD-MOST-POPU=

>LAR thread for at least the past 6 months, trailing only Best Performing

>Va=

>rio and the U.S. Club Class Petition. And still growing, although I
wonder

>=

>if Sean constantly re-reading his posts in narcissistic fashion has

>inflate=
>d the statistics. :)
>
Chip

My post was never meant to be a critisism of W&W or indeed Bob. I was a
heads up to the reality of todays market place.
A lot of shopping is now done over a great distance which is OK if it all
goes well but is a real problem if it goes south.
Perhaps my policy of buying from EBay best describes my attitude. If there
is an item that I want on EBay I will search for a vendor who has a 100%
sucess rating. If there is someone with the same item with a leser rating
at a cheaper price I will still buy from the 100% rating because if it goes
wrong getting a satisfactory conclusion is more difficult, I cannot go down
to his shop and confront directly. A 100% rating is of course no guaruntee
but is less of a risk perhaps than a seller that has already had problems.
For a small business to survive in a global market, especially a niche
market is fraught with problems as this thread has demonstrated.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Don, your eBay example is a great one! I do the same thing. Often a seller with 100% positive feedback doesn't have a lot of history. The big vendors are usually 98%-99%+. When you read the details about the few transactions that go wrong, they often reflect as badly on the buyer as the seller. Seems like successful eBay sellers will do almost anything reasonable to avoid negative feedback. Certainly that's my philosophy.

The ONLY negative feedback in this entire thread, to my knowledge, is one guy who didn't like Tim's policy for free ads, tried to get him to change his mind, got mad and decided to get even. We don't even really know what "hanging up" means here. Did Tim explode, lose his temper, and slam down the receiver (figuratively speaking). Or did he just get tired after half an hour of listening to the same arguments over and over, realize it was a lost cause, and do something we've all done: "I'm tired of talking about this; it's going nowhere. Bye." I REALLY DON'T KNOW. But I know one guy fairly well and he's always behaved admirably. My only exposure to the other guy is from this thread, and I've already said what I think about that.

Otherwise, what's been written here comprises opinions about whether what Tim allegedly did was right or wrong (without really knowing what happened), or opinions about whether his Web site and/or business model make sense, and one guy trying to justify what I continue to think was a petulant and mean-spirited attempt to damage a reputable business when it wouldn't cave into his demands...for a free service! Oh, and there were a number of pilots who defended Tim against the one negative comment (which involved no money), but that has gotten lost in the noise.

I've seen this kind of "negative feedback" before. It's what I dread every time I sell something on eBay. It's why I have occasionally refused to do business with certain buyers when I judged that the upside of getting a few more dollars didn't justify the risk that they would injure my reputation or tie me up in a messy dispute resolution process.

I know Tim does business around the world. When I was selling wingstands, I drop shipped to the UK and to Japan. On one occasion, I took back a wingstand that I'd shipped to the UK because the buyer took it to a competition on the continent, used it the entire contest, decided it didn't work as well as he had hoped, and shipped it back. That was Tim's policy. I just checked his current return policy, which is fairly detailed. Cumulus Soaring's policy is simpler: returns must be authorized. In practice, I suspect both guys will take back anything the buyer doesn't like or can't use so long as there's a good reason and it hasn't been damaged.

Tim "returned" Bob's ad to him only after said ad was already placed on another site (which at least two guys have claimed is far superior to Tim's). I'm waiting for Bob to "return" Tim's reputation to him.

[Mike the Strike]

In my business, I try to keep my clients happy just like re-sellers do. Every now and then I get a "client from hell" who is never happy whatever you do for them. I've "fired" several such customers over the years and don't blame Tim for doing the same.

Mike

[GC]

On 4/04/2013 07:34, Don Johnstone wrote:

> My post was never meant to be a critisism of W&W or indeed Bob. I was a
> heads up to the reality of todays market place.

...

> For a small business to survive in a global market, especially a niche
> market is fraught with problems as this thread has demonstrated.

You're right Don, so I'm going to do my bit for Tim Mara.

I've bought stuff from him several times and delivery has been efficient
and quick. One order had a problem. Tim not only apologised and
replaced the parts, he refunded all the costs. I thought that was
exemplary and I've recommended him ever since.

Tim's business is just about where I'd get if I drilled straight down in
my backyard but I see him as a supportive friend.

GC

[Ramy]

Ok, since this is the most popular thread I guess I have to put my neck on the line as well.
I also do business with Tim and never had an issue, but regardless I would not jump to conclusion based on the original post since we all know there is always two sides to a story.
However what I find disturbing is Tim' s lack of attempt to address this issue, either here on RAS or on his web site. I know he must be reading this since he is an occasional contributor and his friends must have brought his attention to this thread, so unless someone will tell me he is traveling or sick or something, I interpret his lack of response as if he doesn't give a damn what we think. At the minimum, I would expect he would have updated his web site by now to clarify his policy.
So bottom line, his lack of reaction is what I find disturbing and perhaps a confirmation of the accusations.
Tim, perhaps you care to comment?

Ramy

[mike]

Maybe Tim is a bit too classy to roll around in the mud of a thread that has turned into little more than mean spirited, pathetic self serving attacks against him.

Mike Carris

[Ramy]

That's a possibility, but still does not explain why not state his policy on his web site.

Ramy

[mike]

On Wednesday, April 3, 2013 11:51:25 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> That's a possibility, but still does not explain why not state his policy on his web site.
>
>
>
> Ramy

If a person wants to know the conditions when they post a glider for sale, they can always ask. Each ad is a personal favor provided to the soaring community by Tim.

Mike

[Papa3]

If it were my business, I'd be very reluctant to address this issue on R.A.S. Since it's unmoderated and often anonymous, there's nothing stopping someone with an axe to grind or even some of the less rational trolls on the group from jumping on anything he says. I'd calculate the downside may be sigificantly higher than the upside.

If you really care, I'm sure you could reach out to Tim directly...

On Thursday, April 4, 2013 12:03:29 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
>>
> However what I find disturbing is Tim' s lack of attempt to address this issue, either here on RAS or on his web site. I know he must be reading this since he is an occasional contributor and his friends must have brought his attention to this thread, so unless someone will tell me he is traveling or sick or something, I interpret his lack of response as if he doesn't give a damn what we think. At the minimum, I would expect he would have updated his web site by now to clarify his policy. >
>

> Ramy

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

To reiterate, I'm not a lawyer but it's possible that were Tim to explicitly (i.e., in writing) require pilots to give up the right to post ads elsewhere when posting on W&W, that all the elements of a valid contract would exist. If so, he might take on certain obligations; e.g., that his site would be up 24/7 (or at least use his "best efforts" to insure 99.99% availability--meaning spend more money), that his photo editing would be acceptable to the seller, that a specific glider would receive proper positioning (not on page 8, not next to other similar gliders with much lower prices, etc.), that the text wouldn't have any typos, and so forth.

Given the tactics and stridency and willingness to harm his business that we've seen in this thread, I think he might be ill-served by publicizing his policy if, indeed, he requires exclusivity. That explicit policy might also prevent him from allowing certain sellers to advertise elsewhere (e.g., clubs, old friends, low-price gliders) because his "paying" customers might object. Loudly and publicly.

I, too, wondered why he didn't go public during this debate. But given some of the comments we've seen--including (sorry, Ramy) the latest "if you don't defend yourself, you must be guilty"--I'd be very nervous if I were Tim about getting into another debate about whether he really cares about soaring, if he isn't being greedy and short sighted, if his site isn't hopelessly backward and inadequate, isn't his policy stupid, and so on. He apparently had that conversation once, with Bob, and look what that got him. What sane businessman WOULDN'T be nervous about using this thread in this forum to clear his name.

Besides, what makes you think Tim knows what is the "right" thing to do? Everyone else on this thread is totally confident that they're right. Yet with the exception of Paul Remde, no one has any money at stake. We're all just making noise.

But, man, look at how much noise! This could end up being the most popular threat in a long time. :)

[6PK]

Folks. This is getting crazy and way out of hand to say the least. Tim has been providing a valuable FREE service to the soaring community for many years. If he profits incidentally than so be it. It is his website, his efforts, he sets the policy and if any one of us don't like it than one should consider going elsewhere. As they say; don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
6PK

[Sean F (F2)]

So funny...amusing but a little sad.

Lets review, shall we?

Tim is a knowledgeable glider guy. Great.

Tim probably screwed with the wrong guy regarding his secret policy and I can understand an upset reaction from this customer. I also personally believe that Tim (clearly upset by the growth of competitive sites) was also upset by the fact that the customers reaction to Tim's demands was correct regarding absolutely no stated policy and felt it was wrong to threaten to remove his ad as a customer and simply as a user of W&W.

Tim's customer was so bothered by the treatment (hang up was probably true) he posted on RAS. He has some support. Regardless of details the policy and the manner of informing this guy was very, very poor at best.

Friends of Tim Mara circled wagons around him on this thread and likely elsewhere, looking ridiculously bias and completely failing to admit the slightest chance of error by Tim. The wagoneers insult anyone who agreed Tim may be at fault subtlety and nastily in some cases. I for one laughed at it as I usually do, but the unreasonable defense of this event likely further injured Tim's reputation for those watching from the sidelines as any reasonable person agrees there is something odd here about the policy and the incident. The defense was too much. Tim is certainly not innocent.

Tim has essentially been "hiding under his desk" since this has begun. Friends are acting as proxies apparently and rigorously defending some policy that we have no idea that it actually exists because Tim has not made any statements. Head proxy tries to claim Tim is to classy to comment. Please... Tim's a big boy. He can defend himself. Can he not?

Damage short and long term to W&W is debatable, but there definitely is damage. A fact of the electronic age. A fact of negative reviews. Proxies pretend their is no chance of damage from this incident.

We appear to agree that Tim's site is fairly outdated, and many other choices are available to pilots who are looking to sell their gliders. Competition is good for consumers last I checked. Promoting a monopoly on glider want ads questionable but expected from the proxies.

Tim should apologize, state his policy here on RAS and on his website and it will be over in weeks. If he does not this problem will linger...

I want to see other glider want ad sites be successful. I do not like the idea of being EXECTED (wink, wink) to only use someone's site under some mysterious unstated terms and conditions. This supposed exclusivity policy of Wings and Wheels is not stated anywhere on the site. This is PURE FACT.

How do we really know if this IS or IS NOT Tim's Wings and Wheels Want Ad's policy?

Only his proxies and circled wagons pals have stated this is a policy after the customer posted this thread. But how do we really know what is fact? Why should we believe anything the proxies say? How do they really know this policy exists? Tim has not confirmed or denied anything and the website still says absolutely nothing about it. Has Tim told them to say this on this thread (while hiding under the desk) or are they just assuming it to be the case? Have they talked to Tim?

The facts are that we have not heard JACK-SQUAT from TIM and NOTHING ABOUT SUCH A POLICY IS STATED ON TIM'S (only show in town, dominant, amazing) WEBSITE aka WINGS AND WHEELS.

So what are we customers supposed to believe Tim? Must we, if we place an ad on your (only show in town ) website (according to your proxies), assume that you will then pull it down if you find our ad is also listed on any other soaring website????? (which does not matter as your site is the only game in town). Will you call us up if you find our ad in trade a plane or on the SSA want ads? Facebook Want Ads. Where is the line drawn? Are you seriously admiting this is you policy ;-) ?

What if I just announce it on my personal Facebook bag? Does this violate your unstated proxy claimed policy? What about an ad in a local paper? Violation?

What exactly is the policy? Is it true or not? Tim?

If wings and wheels is the only game in town, why is Tim apparently so worried and so threatened by other want ad sites or methods?

Its all just so bad. I'm sorry. In my opinion the whole idea of expecting absolute exclusivity without openly stating such a draconian business policy on the website conditions is ridiculous.

You cannot have it both ways Tim. Which is it? Please make a statement, on your site or here, so we can know the facts and move on.

It's your business and you can certainly do whatever you want. But what is it, exactly, that you are doing?

Thanks,

Sean
F2

[cycle...@bellsouth.net]

Exactly, 6PK It's frigging FREE, if you don't like it I'm sure Tim will give you a full refund for the FREE service. Suck it up play by Tim's rules or go elsewhere. If you came in my store I would through your ass out. Quit whining, play by the rules like everyone else. Tim has every right run his business as he pleases, and he owes no one any explanation. Good going Tim, don't let this asshole get his way! By the way have fun selling your glider on other sites ha ha

[Sean F (F2)]

How do we know what to believe? Nothing on the website and nothing here? What is the policy? Why not add it to the conditions page of the Wings and Wheels want ads site? Why not clarify here? Why know Tim reads this stuff religiously. We hide under his desk?

And what's with all the swear words guys?

Asshole, go F yourself?

Take a deep breath...again...relax....breathe....

Get that blood pressure down....

That's it....breathe.......

Hilarious.

[Kevin Christner]

Sean,

I've heard your a pretty nice guy in person from someone I really respect, but boy do you come off childish on the internet. I, myself, have been guilty of that at least a few times. But I was lucky that someone took me aside and said "Kevin, that might not be the best way to express yourself."

At one point or another, by stating your opinions in outlandish ways and without any knowledge of what actually occurred, you've probably pissed off half the soaring community. Remember, soaring is a pretty small world. Making enemies of people that have been in soaring for many, many years is probably not the best idea. You may find yourself sitting alone at the next contest social.

2C

[Sean F (F2)]

Kevin,

It is not in my nature to "tow the party" line due to fear of potential grudges. I will always be honest and tell you how I feel whether Popular or not. I have absolutely no regrets about any of the arguments I have participated in on RAS. Quite the opposite.

Thanks for the complement. And I appreciate what your trying to say. But, if my wife and I are alone at a contest we would laugh about it and enjoy each others company without the slightest regret. We are friendly to everyone becuase we hold no grudges if we disagree on a small point.

The good news is that we have had no such issue however. It's been quite the opposite at contest for us. We really enjoy the social aspects in fact.

Back on topic. Tim should to stand up for himself and state his Wings and Wheels Want Ads policy either here, on his website or both.

As of this moment we have no real knowledge of what his policy is with wings and wheels in reference to these rumored terms and conditions. Only speculation. As of this moment, nothing on his website mentions anything about such a policy. What else do we have to go on?

He could clear it up so easily....but all I hear are crickets........ .......... ........... ............ .......... ............ ..........

Tim? Will you go on the record? What is the Wings and Wheels policy in regards to other want ads web sites?

Thanks in advance.

Sean

[Sean F (F2)]

Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy?

https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds?ref=hl

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

On Friday, April 5, 2013 5:57:25 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy? https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds?ref=hl

Tim's policy is as described above. He sees no reason to provide space for gliders already advertised somewhere else. He repeated this to me yesterday when I was ordering from him.
And wisely, he is not going to engage you on RAS.
Sean, acting like a bully, which is what you are looking like to me, is not a good thing.
UH

[6PK]

[6PK]

[6PK]

On Friday, April 5, 2013 4:21:30 PM UTC-7, uncl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

Ditto....I agree. 6PK

[Sean F (F2)]

Hank, It's meaningless that Tim supposedly repeated this to you. I appreciate that you're trying to communicate his business policy for him (as he refuses to do). But he should be willing to state his business policies proudly, on his website in full detail. How do we really know what he is saying? What exactly are the terms? Why does he not change his website to define these terms if they indeed exist?

Let me point out that I believe Tim has always been a knowledgable resource who I generally respected. I agree wings and wheels has been strong for want ads. I also dont like this apparent policy requiring exclusivity. I dont really know what to believe. On this point, in regards to this incedent, Tim appears to have thown a long time customer of his off his ad site unless that customer bowed to his demand (completely out of the blue) that he remove all other want ads from any other soaring related website. I personally feel is very, very disturbing if it happened anything like that..

Sure, Tim (as owner of the Wings & Wheels website) can do what he wants. But he should, at the same time, make what he is doing (his terms and conditions and business policy) clear to all of his customers by publishing his T&C on his website. He should not make his policy up out of the blue as I feel he likely did with this customer. I have certainly never heard of this policy before.

This kind of thing (the incedent described by an upset customer who has no reason to make it up) does bother people (even though Tim's friends are defending him vigorously). The policy (if its real) itself will bother many on its own. And his continued silence on the issue is very peculiar. Frankly, his silence and refusal to publish his terms (if they exist) creates a certain amount of doubt regarding his business ethics.

Tim, please state your complete wings and wheels want ads terms and conditions openly, publicly and proudly for all of us so we know exactly where you stand. You should not be fearful of stating your business policies here or on your website, right? Why do you appear fearful? Why are you letting others speak for you? You should stand behind your policies as your friends say you do (do you?) and be happy to explain them and add them to your website.

It's the right thing to do and until you do we will have doubts. Thats not at all what we want. Please do the right thing so we can move on without unanswered questions about your policy and requirements for placing want ads on your site. What actions, exactly, will you decide to remove them?

Sincerely,,

Sean

[Sean F (F2)]

Currently stated wings abs wheels conditions. notice the statement about not accepting any for of compensation....

Link: http://www.wingsandwheels.com/wantads1.htm

Text:
Wings & Wheels "Want Ad's"
Your Want Ad listed for FREE!
Please do not send ad's as attachments,
or in WORD or other document formats, just simply email (sorry no ads accepted by mail post) the ad in the email body as plain text in one paragraph without unnecessary capitals, exclamation points, underline or italics and unformatted without indents or separated lines. All Advertisements must include an email address for contact.
Optionally, include one image to be sent only as a JPEG attachment. (ONE IMAGE ONLY), please do not send composite images since images may have to be cut down for display.
All Ads are completely free of charge! Ads run for 90 days or until I receive notice from the seller that the airplane or item has been sold. Ads can be renewed to run additional 90 days if I receive notification prior to ad expiration and removal. There is no limit on the number or times ads can be renewed, again, always free of charge, however, any ad that is cancelled or removed for failure to notify to renew must remain off the Wings & Wheels want-ads for at least 90 days in order to avoid those wanting to re-list in a more favorable position. As always, there is never any charge for the listing and Wings & Wheels does not request nor will accept any commission or compensation for this service.
I only ask that you please send notice when your sailplane, trailer, airplane or part has been sold or your wanted ad is no longer needed.
email your ad to: t...@wingsandwheels.com

These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for other aircraft dealers, Brokers, Resellers or Commercial vendors!

[GC]

On 6/04/2013 08:57, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy?
>
> https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds?ref=hl

This is looking like pure cyberbullying. What's he done to you, Sean?

Oh, that's right - he ignores you.

GC

[Bill]

Wow...quite the thread.

It might also be called "Competition Glider Pilots with a Keyboard"

Tim has been good to me and I appreciate the W&W free ad. It has taken Tim years of computer work to gain such a glider pilot following to his free glider ads. I just got a call on my Carat A from Germany, so maybe it has found a new home.

Bill

[Sean F (F2)]

[SoarPoint]

For many years I was criticised that the literary devices I employed to make my points (e.g., irony and satire) were too oblique. So true then as now.

To wit: Mr. Andrzej Kobus and I are in accord. My recent, somewhat colourful post (Top Ten Reasons to “Like” Sean F) was, in fact, a personal attack on Mr. Sean Fidler, and a mean-spirited one at that--intentionally so.

In recent days I watched in dismay as the discussion over Mr. Tim Mara in this thread grew increasingly shrill and uncivil. Even certain individuals whom I regard highly for their opinions and style seemed to be pulled inexorably into that wretched fracas.

I had hoped the shock of my low-grade despatch would cause the unruly combatants to take a deep breath and soberly consider the dangerous course upon which they were embarked. Similarly, I had hoped that most would concur that this thread was ALSO a personal attack, one that I fear has already unfairly damaged not only Mr. Mara’s reputation but also his livelihood. If my maths are correct, some 6% of the participants have stated they would likely look elsewhere for spares as a result of the mud being flung about. I should think the actual impact on Mr. Mara’s business might be substantially higher, at least in the short term, as the preponderance of those who would be uneasy are not so inclined to express their views publicly.

This forum has served gliding very well for many years, providing a venue for pilots from around the globe to exchange ideas and opinions helpfully and courteously. Information is now far more widely disseminated and at a much faster rate. And every man (and woman, of course) has a right to speak. But that right is encumbered by responsibility.

I ask a simple question: are there any amongst us who believe they have the right to take money from another's pocket and defame him over the matter first raised in this thread? For that is where we have arrived.

I am aware that Mr. Fidler is a much more pleasant, less belligerent chap in person than he often seems to be on this forum and I offer my apologies for using him as a foil, albeit a highly cooperative and convenient one. :)

I hope, even now, that he and others who continue to quarrel here over Mr. Mara’s policy and actions may find a way to resolve a disagreement sparked by a silly tiff that never should have risen to this level, to restore Mr. Mara’s reputation and good standing, to rehabilitate Mr. Fidler’s, and to allow all to forget that this lamentable scuffle ever took place.

SoarPoint :(

[bruced...@gmail.com]

I just wanted to be the 100th post on this thread........