Avoidable Pawnee Deadly Crash

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider related , yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
A video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTP

[2G]

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 12:49:58 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider related , yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
> A video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTP

And this isn't the only such crash in Ft. Lauderdale:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ol2Py7wc4
Banner towing is an unforgiving job. It is worse than glider towing because they snatch the banner's lanyard using a grappling hook in a divebombing maneuver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEiMfxOkCM
At least the banner won't kite behind the towplane!

Tom 2G

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

TerribleTommy, you are dumber than I thought, I have towed banners , have you??? It wasn't the pickup that was the problem , it was the flight. OBTP

[waltco...@aol.com]

I've got a little experience tugging banners at Ormond and Daytona, long, long ago. They will tell you the most difficult thing is the pick and I suppose to a degree that is true but other things can happen. You get lots of practice in releases because you drop before you land every time. Most of the deadly mistakes in banner towing are the result of pilot error but mechanical issues do crop up. This company seems to have one accident every year or so. The glider tow pilot is at the mercy of the glider pilot and the last two deaths were at the hands of CFIGs. Go figure.

This young man was on his way, had commercial airplane SEL and SES, Multi airplane and seaplane and Instrument with 325 total time and about 13 in the Pawnee. All he needed was time and the regionals would pick him up. Looks like the classic stall, spin low to the ground without room to recover. Sad, very sad.

At least the NTSB has the video and audio to go on, so in a year or so we might see a conclusion.

Walt (I'll stick with helicopters and sea planes.)

[waltco...@aol.com]

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 3:49:58 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider related , yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
> A video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTP

I wonder how they are transitioning these pilots to the Pawnee? I had not flown power in 37 years when I was asked to fly tow, I had over 100 hours in gliders at the time and about 1000 in power including a lot of tailwheel experience. Still I went to a couple of places to get reacquainted with the throttle and tailwheel.

I flew the J3 for 2 hours and felt fine from the start, nailed all the landings, then got in a Stearman for 5 hours to get used to the horsepower. I will tell you if you can handle the Stearman you can fly the Pawnee just fine. I additionally did several hours in the Pitts S2 with Steve Wolf doing aerobatics and then flew the Zlin with Kathy Hertz (SP?) doing upset training. This training was invaluable and probably saved my life when the SHTF. I highly recommend upset training for anyone thinking of towing gliders.

There are some AG schools with tandem Pawnees where you can get some time, I believe Right Rudder Aviation in Inverness has a dual Pawnee for such training. I got in the Pawnee and flew it right away, compared to the Stearman and Pitts it’s a pussy cat. JMHO.

Walt Connelly

[Tony]

They check them out dual for banners in the Cessna Bird Dog, much less forgiving in some ways.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Walt, I have some first hand info on this and the big mistake was not releasing the banner earlier and flying the Pawnee. I have towed banners, and it to me is safer than glider towing. Poor guy just made a mistake by not releasing well before the stall. OBTP

[2G]

Well Boobie, leave to you to find fault when I agree with you. What part of what I wrote is wrong? Maybe it is the part of the banner not kiting behind the towplane.

Note: you didn't post the video you referred to.

Tom 2G

[waltco...@aol.com]

I watched the video and he was low and slow and in trouble from the start of the video. No question towing a glider is more dangerous. The banner does not consciously or carelessly try to kill you and the pressure on the release in a banner tow is minimal. These companies give low time guys a chance to make a couple of bucks and build hours, if they survive it's worth it, in his case not so much. Sad.
Walt

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Walt, absolutely correct, he was in trouble long before the last second release of the banner. I think that this was the second day of towing for this pilot, I wish he could have sat down with the two of us and been given a talk about release first and ask questions later, it would have probably saved his life. OBTP has a few rules when it comes to towing, number one is Don't Screw Up, number two is Don't screw Up, and if you do and you survive the conversation on the ground will not be very pleasant.
After as many tows as the both of us have done we probably could sit down and write a great article about the 10 rules of towing. OBTP

[Turkey Vulture]

The Pawnee does look to be struggling to maintain airspeed with that nose higher than I've seen towing big two seaters. Why? He couldn't increase the power setting? I get it's a big banner but it's a Pawnee!? I don't know anything about towing.

It's amazing how the brain stops working properly in the moment of an emergency...

[Charlie M. (UH, Pi & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:00:50 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> The Pawnee does look to be struggling to maintain airspeed with that nose higher than I've seen towing big two seaters. Why? He couldn't increase the power setting? I get it's a big banner but it's a Pawnee!? I don't know anything about towing.
>
> It's amazing how the brain stops working properly in the moment of an emergency...

To sorta answer this, under stress you usually revert to past training...hopefully that was good training. This is a dynamic situation with little to me to think. Add in he is low time towing, maybe not enough good/relevant training in.

[waltco...@aol.com]

Any time you attach a rope to the tail of an airplane and connect it to anything, glider or banner you are potentially upsetting the apple cart. Flying is dangerous and unforgiving at times.

As I pointed out previously, before I began towing I got some good "upset training" from a former glider tow pilot flying the Zlin, we did loops, rolls and spins and I had a ball. I also did a few hours in the Pitts S2A, your first time in a spin entry should NOT be solo after having release a banner down low. I know commercial pilots who have never been in a loop, roll or spin, I wonder how much if any upset training this young man had? I'm willing to bet little to NONE. Emphasis needs to be put on stall avoidance and spin avoidance. The banner plane is flying dangerously close to stall speed while towing in most cases. Un-ass a couple of dollars out of your own pocket, find a good aerobatic instructor with a fully aerobatic airplane and learn these things. If you are uncomfortable in unusual attitudes you should not be flying, JMHO.

I can assure you the companies who employ these guys are insured, they will move on, find another pilot, another tow plane. Most of these new guys are young, unmarried, no kids so there is no one with legal standing to bring a suit against the company.

Walt Connelly.

[waltco...@aol.com]

I agree that "release first and ask questions later" should be the mantra of every pilot towing anything. The NUMBER ONE RULE should be DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT, but even that upsets some people. I should have pulled the handle on the 15 year old who jerked my tail hard to the right the first time as she was far to the right, not in the mirror and flying erratically. BUT she was a 15 year old student and I foolishly wanted to give her every chance possible. I towed her another 100-150 feet in the air before I started the turn to the upwind a second time when she kited hard putting MY life in peril. Had the rope not broken I would have been killed. My dedication to my job and the safety of the student was not appreciated as was apparent but I'm okay with that. Talking to her on the ground afterwards was like talking to a brick wall, her instructor did not even appear to be watching her while on solo tow. Go figure.

I looked at the training schedule of the banner school and it looked adequate, 10 hours in the L19 and 10 hours in the Pawnee, a substantial amount of ground school, yada yada yada. About 6500 dollars worth of training which was waived if the employee lasted a year. Not a bad deal if you live thru it and gain the experience. I would have jumped on that in 1974 myself.

Walt Connelly

[Dan Marotta]

I pulled the release on my pre-solo wife over the departure numbers when
the engine of the Ag Wagon quit. I looked in the mirror and she was half
way through the turn back. Her instructor woke up about the time she
rolled out and asked, "Did you do that?" Yup.

Dan
5J

[waltco...@aol.com]

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 11:31:01 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I pulled the release on my pre-solo wife over the departure numbers when
> the engine of the Ag Wagon quit. I looked in the mirror and she was half
> way through the turn back. Her instructor woke up about the time she
> rolled out and asked, "Did you do that?" Yup.
>
> Dan
> 5J

Pulling the release with an engine out is a no brainer and I would do the same thing with a lost engine regardless of who was behind me. I would imagine your "pre solo wife" was with an instructor. If I lost an engine I don't know that I would be looking in the mirror but looking for a place to land. I assume everything turned out well.

Walt
> >

[kenward1000]

I fly out of the Minden, NV airport. One summer when Tony Sabino was running Soar Minden, watched him try to get one of his tow pilots to learn banner towing, for a marriage proposal. The pilot had no formal or even informal instruction beforehand. Clearly uncomfortable with the banner pickup, kept missing the pickup. Tony kept berating him over the radio "lower! you've got to come in lower to snag the banner! you're wasting my fuel and my time! the customer has already paid for the banner and you're holding things up!" After three attempts the pilot just landed the plane and walked away, the stress level was just too high. I congratulated him on making a good decision.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

I know this operation very well, their equipment is first class, probably the finest Pawnee repair and rebuild facility in the country. Yet, there are more than one instance that points to something being reason for investigating why so many deadly accidents in a short period of time. The time requirements are certainly adequate prior to getting into the Pawnee and towing, but how much emergence training is included in that syllabus?
As I have mentioned before, I have had some very close calls while towing gliders, and yes the broken rope saved me once, and there was an instructor in the glider, what a surprise! When I give a tow endorsement I spend more than adequate time going through release procedures and expectations. My Pawnee's are designed so that the tow pilot has not problem getting to the release and increasing his margin of safety. OBTP

[Dan Marotta]

Her instructor was asleep or inattentive. I pulled the release because
I was already turning towards a field about 30 degrees left of center
line. I had taken care of business and checked on her when I was
satisfied with my choice of field.

The problem was that, as I brought my hand from the prop control back to
the throttle, my glove snagged the mixture control. It went like this:
Rock, rock, pull release, turn towards the preselected field, check mag
switches, MIXTURE!.

With power restored, I climbed to the pattern and repeated the glove
trick before realizing what had happened. After landing, I swapped the
gloves out and haven't used them in flight since. We repositioned the
aircraft and she took a few more tows.

Dan
5J

[waltco...@aol.com]

"How much emergency training is included in that syllabus?" Apparently not much if any at all, at least not the important stuff. My recommendation is for pilots approaching such jobs to get their own upset and aerobatic training. I did, found Kathy Hirtz in Leesburg, Fl who had experience in gliders and tow planes and who did upset training in a Zlin. After doing a couple of hours in the J3, 5 in the Stearman and a few in the Pitts with Steve Wolf I did 5 hours with her concentrating on unusual attitude and spins. She also did simulations of what I would feel in the tow plane when the glider got out of position having me respond and counter the condition safely. She apparently has retired but there are others out there who can teach these same skills. I spent several thousand dollars doing these things but it's kinda like insurance, it's expensive but when it comes time to collect it's invaluable. This cannot be said enough, like "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT."

Walt Connelly

[waltco...@aol.com]

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 2:56:33 PM UTC-4, kenward1000 wrote:
> I fly out of the Minden, NV airport. One summer when Tony Sabino was running Soar Minden, watched him try to get one of his tow pilots to learn banner towing, for a marriage proposal. The pilot had no formal or even informal instruction beforehand. Clearly uncomfortable with the banner pickup, kept missing the pickup. Tony kept berating him over the radio "lower! you've got to come in lower to snag the banner! you're wasting my fuel and my time! the customer has already paid for the banner and you're holding things up!" After three attempts the pilot just landed the plane and walked away, the stress level was just too high. I congratulated him on making a good decision.

I have limited experience with banners but my training was with the company owner talking me thru it with dual controls. The pick is tricky but learnable, I later dumped a banner off Ormond Beach because I had an engine going bad, managed to land back at Ormond and he was infuriated. I got the airplane back on the ground undamaged and knew the banner would most likely wash up on the beach, it did. I was the back up, part time pilot but I terminated my employment on the spot. I later learned he had lost his medical or he would have been flying his junk himself. He might not have been breaking every rule in the book but he sure as hell bent them on a regular basis. I have come to learn that that is the way at many such facilities.

Walt Connelly

[Charles Longley]

I agree with you on the operation that lost the Pawnee. They have very good equipment. We were looking at buying a Pawnee from them but found a better deal.

I am curious if the NTSB will figure out why the Pawnee was having issues towing the banner. My money is on a mag being left off.

[Dan Marotta]

Betcha it was a boat load of fun, though!

Got my aerobatics training at tax payer expense.

Dan
5J

[me]

Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746

[2G]

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 4:27:07 PM UTC-7, me wrote:
> Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:
> https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746

I am STILL waiting for Boobie to post a link to the video that he has referred to (and criticized me about!).

Tom 2G

[tw...@stic.net]

https://youtu.be/d3Jkd3ce5lo

[waltco...@aol.com]

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:
> Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:
> https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746

Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your sensitive panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.

This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he can make those big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.

Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to an airplane and attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.

FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."

Walt Connelly

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Walt, yep, time to get rid of all those dangerous Pawnee's, they are more deadly than an AR15 with a banana clip, the investigators have already reached out, not surprised at all. OBTP

[Dan Marotta]

Walt, are you talking about those deadly Assault Pawnees? You know, the
black ones with the 300 round magazine clips?

Dan
5J

[waltco...@aol.com]

Dan, yes definitely those Assault Pawnees need to be banned. I had one attack me and I barely got away with my life and those "magazine clips," no one needs a "magazine clip."

Seriously though, it's nice to see opportunity for young pilots, when I got my commercial there was not much available. It's all a matter of timing and hitting at the right time. Towing anything is dangerous, I just hope these young people can live long enough to get the experience it takes to keep them alive.

Walt

[waltco...@aol.com]

Regarding the infamous BANANA "clip", I prefer the 20 round "clip" and as I recall from the Vietnam Police Action most loaded only 17-18 rounds which helped to preclude jamming The 30 round magazine makes it near impossible to go prone unless you are 6'6" and have long forearms. I was USAF so my weapon was a .38 cal aircrew revolver left over from the Philippine insurrection and replaced by the Colt .45 auto. Just a tad more lethal than a sharp stick.

Walt Connelly

[Dan Marotta]

My first tail dragger was an L-19 Bird Dog with hydraulic retractable
skis based at Ft. Wainwright, Fairbanks, Alaska in 1974. There was no
tail wheel endorsement at the time and my checkout was three trips
around the pattern, 2 in the snow with the skis down, and one on the
runway with the skis up.

They were always looking for tuggies at TSA in Texas so it was a
briefing and hook up a glider. I don't recall any dual instruction in
towing, but it was a long time ago. I don't have a towing endorsement,
either but I don't think that existed, either.

Nowadays insurance companies want lots of tail dragger time before
covering an airplane or pilot. I wonder how the banner towing companies
handle that.

Dan
5J

[Charles Longley]

They did away with the 20 round magazine by the time I was in the infantry in the 80’s. The 30 round magazine was no issue at all going prone with. I fired thousands of rounds with them. Very few issues as long as you cleaned the M16 daily and kept it lubed.

[waltco...@aol.com]

When the M16 was initially issued in Nam the geniuses (officers who knew every f--king thing) sent them without cleaning kits, said they were not necessary. These same geniuses did away with the chrome plating of the barrels which Stoner (the designer) said was necessary, this caused a lot of malfunctions and resulted in a lot of dead GIs but of course the officers knew every f00kihng thing. Issues with a change in the type of gunpowder used also created problems, but again, saving money and decisions by geniuses who knew everything became problematic. If you are shorter in stature a 30 round mag will not allow you to maintain a low profile to the ground, sure it can be done but there is no argument that you are a higher target. I'll take low anyway. The issues learned in the Nam kept a lot of personnel alive in the years to come.

A youngster from my neighborhood received an Army commission. I told him to find a good mid level NCO, bury your head up his ass for a year and you might learn something.

Walt Connelly

[Charles Longley]

Well I suspect the Army learned a few things in Viet Nam. Not saying your 20 round magazine isn’t a valid point. I just never heard a complaint about the 30 round magazine during my infantry stint. Like not one. It never came up. Our standard load out was 210 rounds in 7-30 round magazines. Plus maybe some more in your pack. We loaded the magazines to their full capacity of 30 rounds. Never heard of a magazine failure. Of course we weren’t operating in a humid climate. All of our weapons were in good shape and they were pretty adamant on cleaning from day one.

I take it you were a pilot. I spent a number of years in the infantry. We did lots of training with multiple rounds going down range. By lucky coincidence I missed out on all the fun in the Middle East. Both of my old units rotated over there.

Charlie

[waltco...@aol.com]

Not a pilot, membership in the club required a college degree. I had the grades, test scores but not the money for college and the draft would grab you if weren't in college in 1968. I enlisted, was combat aircrew on a number of different platforms with over 1000 hours of combat mission time in one year. A college degree does not predict how well one will learn to fly or much else. I worked full time, went to school full time and had a commercial certificate before I had a degree. Had hoped to go back in but was too old for pilot/nav by the time I finished my degree.

Vietnam was a terrible place to learn the problems associated with ignoring the manufacturers recommendations. A cleaning kit costs money, chrome barrels cost money, gotta save money, to hell with the lives lost seemed to be the order of the day. Guys would write home and have mom or dad send a .22 cleaning kit. Magazine design improved over the years, I have Nam era mags and the current mags, newer ones are better but out of habit I still load short of the max.

Walt Connelly