Gear Warning
Gadget Guy
Greetings all, I am looking for a drawing that depicts the electrical
wiring of a DG-300. Does anyone know of a link or have a basic drawing
of a gear warning system?
Thank you in advace
--
Gadget Guy
Paul Remde
I can't help you with the DG-300, but I do offer a simple gear warning
system from Tasman. It is pretty cool. It has a digital recorder in it.
You record your voice saying something like "Lower the Gear NOW!" and it
plays the message when your gear is up and the airbrakes are open. Of
course you need switches placed on the gear and airbrake mechanisms. I just
received a batch of them recently and will add them to my web site this
morning. I sell both the Tasman TB32 Echo gear warning system and some
small switches. The Echo sells for $85.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/tasman.htm
I'll get the details on the web site right now with photos later today.
Good Soaring,
--
Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
"Gadget Guy" <Gadget.G...@news.aviationbanter.com> wrote in message
news:Gadget.G...@news.aviationbanter.com...
Nyal Williams
two paths for the current. One path when the gear
is up and another when the gear is down. It is better,
in my view, the bigger problem is finding a place to
put the switches. I tried to use a 9v batttery to
drive the system and quickly learned that when the
wings are off, nothing holds the spoiler handle in
place and the spoiler handle would open slightly in
the trailer and just run the battery down. Better
to wire it to the main battery and let the master switch
take care of this problem.
Nyal Williams
two paths for the current. One path when the gear
is up and another when the gear is down. It is better,
in my view, the bigger problem is finding a place to
put the switches. I tried to use a 9v batttery to
drive the system and quickly learned that when the
wings are off, nothing holds the spoiler handle in
place and the spoiler handle would open slightly in
the trailer and just run the battery down. Better
to wire it to the main battery and let the master switch
take care of this problem.
At 10:12 16 November 2005, Gadget Guy wrote:
>
Bill Daniels
Reed switches require no contact with the spoiler and gear controls since
they operate in proximity to a tiny magnet epoxied to a control rod. They
don't need precise adjustment to work and they never wear out.
I selected a raucous low pitched buzzer as the warning horn because it
didn't sound like any other device in the cockpit. High pitched squealers
sound too much like an audio vario.
Another neat backup is GPS_LOG WinCE PDA software. It sounds a warning of
your choice by playing a .wav file when the glider descends to pattern
altitude above the terrain elevation map.
I use both systems.
Bill Daniels
"Nyal Williams" <REMOVE_TO_REPL...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3u10r2F...@individual.net...
Eric Greenwell
> Hi,
>
> I can't help you with the DG-300, but I do offer a simple gear warning
> system from Tasman. It is pretty cool. It has a digital recorder in it.
> You record your voice saying something like "Lower the Gear NOW!" and it
> plays the message when your gear is up and the airbrakes are open. Of
> course you need switches placed on the gear and airbrake mechanisms. I just
> received a batch of them recently and will add them to my web site this
> morning. I sell both the Tasman TB32 Echo gear warning system and some
> small switches. The Echo sells for $85.
Nice idea, but even better would be to have the Echo also function as an
extension speaker. Adding that function would add more value at little cost.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA
Eric Greenwell
> Greetings all, I am looking for a drawing that depicts the electrical
> wiring of a DG-300. Does anyone know of a link or have a basic drawing
> of a gear warning system?
If you have a Cambridge 302 vario (or similar), you can connect the gear
and spoiler switches to it to provide the warning. The 302 can also be
set to provide a "spoilers open" warning at the start of a launch
(airspeed triggered). It's the system I use.
01-- Zero One
"Eric Greenwell" <flyg...@charter.netto> wrote in message news:q_Ief.12568$GT3....@fe02.lga:
The later models of LNAV use a similar system. And, yes, the spoiler open warning system on takeoff is a plus.
Larry Goddard
“01” USA
Paul Remde
In addition to the audible signal from the 302 - if you have a 303 it
displays a text message which makes it obvious what the issue is.
I like the Tasman approach because a voice message should be able to cut
through all the beeps already going on in the cockpit. I talked to one user
who installed them in his gliders at his commercial operation. He said the
recorded message was "Lower the Fxxxing Landing Gear!" - in an all out
attempt to get the pilot's attention.
Does anyone have any suggestions for sources of small magnetic reed
switches? I sell mechanical microswitches which I have used in the past and
like, but I can see the advantages to non-contact switching.
Good Soaring,
Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
"Eric Greenwell" <flyg...@charter.netto> wrote in message
news:q_Ief.12568$GT3....@fe02.lga...
Mike the Strike
Many electronic component wholesalers/retailers have these available.
I've bought Hamlin reed switches and magnets from Digi-Key -
www.digikey.com.
Mike
TTaylor at cc.usu.edu
Any of the big electronics suppliers would have them (.com any of the
names below).
Digikey
Newark
Mouser
Jameco
All have good websites and good service.
If you like the garage sale approach I love All Electronics
(allelectronics.com).
Tim
Nigel Pocock
like background radio chatter and your brain filters
it out (or at least mine does)
Our CFI discovered this the hard way in our brand new
DG1000. luckily landed on soft grass so no damage.
Incidentally the BGA in the UK does not reccomend an
undercarriage warning buzzer.
Mike the Strike
are extraneous to the task on hand. This is what causes many vehicle
accidents where people fail to see objects. They are seen, but not
processed in higher areas of the brain.
Exactly the same can happen with audible warnings - they are heard but
not processed.
I had a glider colleague who was famous for gear-up landings and who
had the loudest and most obnoxious gear warning klaxon installed. One
day, we saw him descending on final with the warning blaring, clearly
audible from a hundred yards away. He then proceeded to land gear up,
as usual.
I prefer check lists, but must note I have seen another colleague
return from a flight with gear extended then retract it on final as he
went through his pre-landing checks!
I have yet to land gear up but presume it could happen if I am
distracted or in a hurry.
Mike
Eric Greenwell
> Incidentally the BGA in the UK does not reccomend an
> undercarriage warning buzzer.
As a pilot that has avoided 3 gear up landings because I had a warning
buzzer, I'm curious about the reasoning behind the recommendation.
How about a mechanical warning, like I use on my present glider? It's a
small spring-loaded plastic clamp that is on the gear handle when the
gear is down, then moved to the spoiler handle just before raising the
gear. The clamp location is reversed for landing.
Eric Greenwell
> One problem with a recorded voice is that it sounds
> like background radio chatter and your brain filters
> it out (or at least mine does)
If it was your voice, or your wife's voice, on the recording, do you
think you would still filter it out? The Tasman unit allows any voice
and message. Maybe a former glider instructor (or for the ex-military, a
former drill instructor)?
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
April 2005 published by the BGA
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/documents/Edition15final.pdf
in Part 3 Recommended Practices RP26 on page 58 states: -
"UNDERCARRIAGE WARNING SYSTEMS
"RP26. The fitting of systems that warn the pilot of a glider that the
undercarriage is not lowered during the landing approach IS NOT RECOMMENDED.
This is because if such a system is fitted and is activated then the pilot
is likely to attempt to lower the undercarriage during the final stages of
landing. This could result in mishandling the aircraft, so causing an
accident.
"It is also recommended that if the glider is seen on the approach wheel-up,
no attempt is made to warn that pilot, using radio or other means, for the
same reason. The pilot should be allowed to land wheels-up."
I understand that this recommendation was made after accidents where the
warning was considered to be the cause.
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.
>
> "Eric Greenwell" <flyg...@charter.netto> wrote in message
> news:iNNef.12738$GT3....@fe02.lga...
>
> Nigel Pocock wrote:
>
>> Incidentally the BGA in the UK does not recommend an
>> undercarriage warning buzzer.
>
> As a pilot that has avoided 3 gear up landings because I had a warning
> buzzer, I'm curious about the reasoning behind the recommendation.
>
> < snip>
Marc Ramsey
> I prefer check lists, but must note I have seen another colleague
> return from a flight with gear extended then retract it on final as he
> went through his pre-landing checks!
Same thing happened to me on my first flight in the first glider I
owned. On pattern entry I went through my pre-landing checklist,
operated the gear handle, opened the spoilers, then heard a load beeping
noise. Closed the spoilers, beeping stopped. It took a fair bit of
contemplation to recognize that the glider might have a gear warning
system. A quick glance at the gear position symbols allowed me to solve
the mystery while still plenty high. I must have forgotten to retract
the gear after release...
Marc
Marc Ramsey
> "RP26. The fitting of systems that warn the pilot of a glider that the
> undercarriage is not lowered during the landing approach IS NOT RECOMMENDED.
> This is because if such a system is fitted and is activated then the pilot
> is likely to attempt to lower the undercarriage during the final stages of
> landing. This could result in mishandling the aircraft, so causing an
> accident.
You guys don't routinely do a test opening of the spoilers on pattern
entry?
Gary Emerson
spoilers are checked? If the spoilers are checked early in the pattern
then the logic regarding gear warning systems is not very logical.
Bill Daniels
"Eric Greenwell" <flyg...@charter.netto> wrote in message
Try: http://www.research.att.com/projects/tts/demo.html
Type in whatever message you want, choose the gender and accent of the
synthetic voice and download the .wav file. A sexy female voice gets my
attention.
As the gadget makers are now involved, I have a request. How about a small
box containing a multi-input, line-in, fixed volume, audio mixer with
amplifier and decent speaker powered by the ships battery. This box would
have an array of 3mm jacks to receive the audio from the varios, PDA, radio,
and other gadgets that output audio and play them all through the same
speaker. Maybe it should fit in a 57mm instrument hole. I think this would
simplify wiring and improve audio quality.
Bill Daniels
Edward Lockhart
>One problem with a recorded voice is that it sounds
>like background radio chatter and your brain filters
>it out (or at least mine does)
>Our CFI discovered this the hard way in our brand new
>DG1000. luckily landed on soft grass so no damage.
Having broadcast this fact to the entire world wide
web under your own name, you are now a marked man.
Enjoy your next check flight!
Had a similar situation today in the same glider. A
lot of radio chatter from joining powered aircraft
drowned out the quiet, almost apologetic, female voice
warning.
Got the wheel down though.
Ed.
>
>
Mark Dickson
>>So does the BGA recommend to use a pre-landing checklist
>>where the
>spoilers are checked? If the spoilers are checked
>early in the pattern
>then the logic regarding gear warning systems is not
>very logical.
>
Yes, pre-landing checks are carried out; they include
checking the gear is down. If you do the checks your
gear shouldn't be up on approach. If you don't do
the checks you wouldn't have checked either gear or
airbrakes and you'll be distracted on approach by the
buzzer. You don't need a buzzer; just carry out your
checks.
Mark Dickson
Mike the Strike
mud, as it is in Britain), I wouldn't like to see anyone land a nice
glass ship on our Arizona rock and gravel runways.
I am also not sure I would agree with their rationale. In my opinion,
it would be a particularly inept pilot who could not lower his/her gear
at all but the final stages of a landing approach and who might be
startled by a radio call so badly they lost control. The BGA procedure
also now leaves an immobile glider sitting in the middle of the runway
- another hazard!
Perhaps some BGA members could illuminate us on why their ruling body
considers them incapable of taking corrective action when landing?
Mike
Mark Dickson
checks and landing with the wheel up is inexcusable
and embarrassing, but not a big deal damagewise. At
most a bit of gel repair needed. Getting distracted
on approach, changing hands on stick, letting go of
airbrake lever, rushing to lower gear and not monitoring
the approach could, and obviously has, proved disastrous.
The inept pilot is the one who does not follow basic
airmanship routines such as checks.
Tony Verhulst
> How about a mechanical warning, like I use on my present glider? It's a
> small spring-loaded plastic clamp that is on the gear handle when the
> gear is down, then moved to the spoiler handle just before raising the
> gear. The clamp location is reversed for landing.
Foolproof... almost - and I'm a better fool. It was a ridge day and the
clouds were barely above the ridge. I had to use spoilers to keep from
getting sucked into the clouds. I got used to working the spoilers with
the clamp attached. Add to that, the failure to use a proper
checklist... No damage at all as it was on grass but sooo many witnesses
:-).
I'm much better at checklists now and also have an audible gear warning.
The warning buzzer is a great idea, and suggest that the BGA
reconsider their opinion.
Tony V.
d...@nadler.com
gear down !
See ya, Dave
Bill Daniels wrote:
....
Mike the Strike
shouldn't be flying at all! This isn't a big multi-tasking job. What
would such a person do if the canopy popped open, the brake handle came
off in his hands or the spoilers opened on takeoff?
In a sailplane with a left-handed gear handle, all it takes is- brakes
closed, gear down, brakes open again. I timed it at 3 to 4 seconds in
an ASW 20.
With a right-handed gear handle, you have to close brakes, switch
hands, put gear down, switch back, brakes open, in 4 to 6 seconds. On
downwind, you have plenty of time to do this and even on final if it
isn't too short. At 50 knots, 6 seconds represents no moe than about
600 feet - say 200 meters.
BGA sounds a bit like a mother hen!
Mike
Marc Ramsey
> Yes, pre-landing checks are carried out; they include
> checking the gear is down. If you do the checks your
> gear shouldn't be up on approach. If you don't do
> the checks you wouldn't have checked either gear or
> airbrakes and you'll be distracted on approach by the
> buzzer. You don't need a buzzer; just carry out your
> checks.
Spoiler checks are easy to get right, and become pretty automatic for
most. Landing gear is not so simple for those fly multiple gliders,
some with fixed landing gear, some with gear handles that move the
"wrong" way, etc. Plus, for those of us who land at asphalt, dirt, or
gravels strips, a gear up landing is a US$1000 or so mistake. I'll keep
my gear warning, thanks. I've only heard one once in anger, and it was
well worth the momentary distraction...
Gary Emerson
For most, the gear warning buzzer will only be heard when pulling
spoilers at altitude to intentionally descend. However, it's a nice
feature to have on that day when you left the gear down the whole
flight. You won't find this mistake on short final, but most likely
very early on in the pattern where it's a quick fix and not likely to
add extra risk in the landing phase.
bob...@aci.on.ca
If you are almost ready to land, nicely set up with the proper descent
rate, and hear a gear up warning, what do you do? You proceed to lower
the gear, your left hand is currently on the open spoilers, your right
on the stick... usually..... so (also usually) your gear lever is on
the right side, you need your right hand, so you switch hands, left
hand on stick, right hand on gear, then just slightly before your gear
comes down, you flop onto the ground hard enough to break your tail
since your spoilers are now full out late on final .... left hand moved
over to the stick, remember? By doing nothing you flare and land on the
belly.... likely less expensive to repair. Just a theory. Until you do
it yourself. Ouch.
Eric Greenwell
> Canada, not BGA....
>
> If you are almost ready to land, nicely set up with the proper descent
> rate, and hear a gear up warning, what do you do?
How did you get that nicely setup proper descent rate without using the
spoilers well before you are almost ready to land?
You proceed to lower
> the gear, your left hand is currently on the open spoilers, your right
> on the stick... usually..... so (also usually) your gear lever is on
> the right side, you need your right hand, so you switch hands, left
> hand on stick, right hand on gear, then just slightly before your gear
> comes down, you flop onto the ground hard enough to break your tail
> since your spoilers are now full out late on final .... left hand moved
> over to the stick, remember? By doing nothing you flare and land on the
> belly.... likely less expensive to repair. Just a theory. Until you do
> it yourself. Ouch.
I think the gear warning would not be problem with a halfway decent
approach, but could be a problem in a badly done, low approach, so that
the spoilers are not used till close to the ground. Also, what you say
might apply to a warning given over the radio, which could easily come
late when you are almost ready to land.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA
Bill Daniels
<bob...@aci.on.ca> wrote in message
news:1132198284.4...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I don't quite buy all of this.
Airplane pilots land with their left hand on the yoke and right hand on the
throttle. When they shift to gliders, they land with their right hand on
the stick and left on the spoiler. In other words, a well trailed pilot can
land with either hand on the flight controls.
If you can't fly with either hand, you are limited. If you can, then
shifting hands to extend the gear shouldn't be a problem.
A possible thought here is that a throttle will stay where it is when you
let go - that's what friction locks are for. A spoiler will either suck
open or slam shut forcing the pilot to keep a hand on the control. Seems
like we should ask the designers to take a look at this.
Bill Daniels
Mike the Strike
stable spoiler when cracked open and you can use the extra height to
extend your pattern while you put the gear down. A 40:1 ship can fly
over six miles from an 800-foot pattern altitude and has something like
5 minutes flying time available. From 500 feet make that 3+ minutes,
plenty of time to lower the gear.
If you first crack the brakes just before touching down (say at 50
feet) then you are screwed and deserve to break your glider. As I said
earlier, you'll need a few seconds to lower the gear so you'd better
have enough height.
I was trained to do all my pre-landing checks at pattern altitude,
cracking the brakes and visually checking both are open and to leave my
left hand on the spoiler until touchdown, which is the procedure I
still follow.
Mike
Andy Blackburn
>If it was...your wife's voice on the recording do you
>
>think you would still filter it out?
Wow, nobody bit on this one?
9B
Mark Dickson
It's only a recommendation.
Jim Green
his gear going up and down instead of his spoilers? Surprising how even
competent people can get caught out and flustered by the unexpected. This
is a cost versus safety argument and you takes your pick but BGA
recommendations are not cost-orientated.
Stanford Korwin
Green wrote:
>Ever seen a pilot with a fixation flying off the end
>of the runway with
>his gear going up and down instead of his spoilers?
>Surprising how even
>competent people can get caught out and flustered by
>the unexpected. This
>is a cost versus safety argument and you takes your
>pick but BGA
>recommendations are not cost-orientated.
>
No one, as far as I know, has ever been hurt while
landing wheel-up - but there have been a number of
injuries to those losing control while trying to lower
the u/c at the last minute.
I mentioned the fitting of a 'wheel-up/airbrakes out'
warning mechanism when I had my Jantar-3 refitted in
Poland.
They would not hear of it !
Oh - and it is quite possible to land wheel-up after
completing landing checks.
Believe me !
sta13.
Stanford Korwin
Paul Remde
I'm with Gary. The ideas is to do your checklist (including an airbrake
check) as you enter the pattern. If your gear is down at that point you
will hear a voice telling you very clearly and repeatedly "landing gear is
up, lower landing gear" and you will fix the problem on downwind.
I think main thing this discussion has done is show that many people don't
do thorough downwind checklists.
Certainly, no gadget is going to help some pilots and it is true that last
minute distractions are to be avoided - so test your airbrakes on downwind
after "lowering" your landing gear and the problem will go away. If you
have changed your gear from down to up you will hear a warning to lower your
gear.
Good Soaring,
Paul Remde
"Gary Emerson" <emerso...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:F_Ref.15486$D13....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
Mike the Strike
eight-year old kids and, if we misbehaved, would rap us over the
knuckles with a wooden ruler (this was in the old days!).
Her voice would probably do the trick! Failing which, how about a
mechanism to rap you over the knuckles while the schoolmaam berates
your stupidity?
Wives tend not to use voice commands so much as "the look".
Mike
Eric Greenwell
> No one, as far as I know, has ever been hurt while
> landing wheel-up - but there have been a number of
> injuries to those losing control while trying to lower
> the u/c at the last minute.
It seems a very rare event, at least in the US, as I don't remember any.
Perhaps some US pilots can offer examples. I do know a number of people
that have landed wheel up, of course. I can remember an incident where a
gear up landing at a small airstrip blocked the runway long enough to
making it difficult for the other landing gliders to do so safely.
Another incident that blocked a runway triggered an accident - no
injuries, fortunately, but the landing glider was damaged.
So, my experience is it's generally better to have the pilot get the
gear down, though I would hesitate to say anything on the radio if the
glider was already close to the ground. Certainly letting a pilot land
gear up on a wide grass runway, which would not be blocked and causes no
damage to glider, is the safest procedure. Narrow paved runways may tilt
the safety judgment in the other direction.
Andy
> gear down, though I would hesitate to say anything on the radio if the
> glider was already close to the ground. Certainly letting a pilot land
> gear up on a wide grass runway, which would not be blocked and causes no
> damage to glider, is the safest procedure. Narrow paved runways may tilt
> the safety judgment in the other direction.
Agree with Eric on this. I have flown at several UK sites and many US
sites. The landing options at UK sites are usually such that a
disabled glider is not a hazard to others. In US several sites only
have one paved or dirt runway available and a disabled glider can make
landing hazardous for all competitors that finish soon after. Parowan
would be a good example of that.
I have fitted gear warning in both my std class gliders. In over 2000
hours it has never gone off unexpectedly, but I intend to put the gear
down if it ever does. 2 weekends ago I had a call from another
finisher while I was on a close in base leg. He asked if my gear was
down. I had plenty of time to verify it was and to have put it down if
it wasn't. Keep calling me! I'll decide if I have time to put it down
or accept a gear up landing.
Andy
Bill Daniels
"Eric Greenwell" <flyg...@charter.netto> wrote in message
I've looked at the aftermath of a few two seater gear-up landings. The
posterior of the rear seat occupant got perilously close to the highly
abrasive runway surface before it stopped grinding away the bottom of the
fuselage. Not all gear-up's may be benign.
Bill Daniels
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
stick, and left hand on the throttle. With the Robins I had to change
hands to trim or set the flaps. With all of them the tow release was set
for the left hand.
When I learnt to power fly after many years gliding, I found the Tomahawk
and Cessna 150 series unhandy and difficult because I had to use my left
hand on a yoke. It was the combination of a yoke and the left hand which
made it difficult for me, after so many years with a stick in the right
hand. Are there any single pilot aircraft regularly flown with the left
hand?
There have been a number of cases where gliders (usually an ASW19) has been
seen trying to land with the brakes firmly shut and the wheel going up and
down; correct hand wrong lever.
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.
>
> "Bill Daniels" <bil...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:jImdnVpyF-vQneHe...@comcast.com...
Robert Backer
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
One of the biggest controversies in U.K. clubs is about whether to do or not
to do downwind checks. Some clubs insist, some clubs think it is rubbish.
So far as I know, none of the professional national coaches employed by the
BGA to train instructors has ever called for downwind checks.
To my certain knowledge this includes Bill Scull, Chris Rollings, Brian
Spreckley, G. Dale, many others. However, when they came across a
candidate who had been trained to use downwind checks they did not actually
insist on a change.
The BGA Instructors' Manual in Chapter 4 - CHECK LISTS is 3 pages and has
this on page 4.3: -
"Pre-landing checks.
"The use of UFSTAL, WULF and other variations on the theme is inappropriate
on the downwind leg of the circuit. The pilot is better off flying the
glider correctly, in the right place, and looking out. The use of a
pre-landing check prior to joining the circuit (a pre-circuit check as
opposed to a down-wind check) is mentioned also in chapter 14."
Chapter 14 - CIRCUIT PLANNING (PART ONE) is 6 pages of text and 4 of
illustrations and has this on page 14.6: -
Under "Before going to the high key area", 7 bullet points, with the last
one: -
"make a positive decision to join the circuit to land, and plan to arrive at
the high key area between 700ft. to 800ft.
prepare for landing by;
doing pre-circuit checks, if appropriate
making sure the straps are tight and deciding on a suitable approach
speed. In gliders so equipped, dump any water ballast and lower the
undercarriage
continuing to fly the glider at normal speed (i.e. best glide angle),
but speeding up appropriately in any sink."
On page 14-10 under "Advice to Instructors",
4th of 7 items, "Downwind",
"Don't confuse the demonstration by introducing pre-landing checks as such.
It's all there anyway, and the pre-landing checks should be carried out
before starting the circuit. Reciting a mnemonic on the downwind leg is
inappropriate, and in any case, being able to recite a check shouldn't be
confused with an ability to plan a circuit."
I understand that frequently if someone lands wheel up, when asked if they
did pre-landing checks they say "oh, yes!". The point of course is that
those who are taught pre-landing checks are flying training gliders with a
fixed wheel, and so they are used to saying the check item but doing
nothing.
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.
>
> "Gary Emerson" <emerso...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1uOef.21784$Zv5....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>
>>
>> W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). wrote:
>>
>> In the current, Fifteenth Edition of Laws and Rules for Glider Pilots of
>> April 2005 published by the BGA
>> http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/documents/Edition15final.pdf
>> in Part 3 Recommended Practices RP26 on page 58 states: -
>>
>> "UNDERCARRIAGE WARNING SYSTEMS
>>
>> "RP26. The fitting of systems that warn the pilot of a glider that the
>> undercarriage is not lowered during the landing approach IS NOT
>> RECOMMENDED. This is because if such a system is fitted and is
>> activated then the pilot is likely to attempt to lower the undercarriage
>> during the final stages of landing. This could result in mishandling
>> the aircraft, so causing an accident.
>>
>> "It is also recommended that if the glider is seen on the approach
>> wheel-up, no attempt is made to warn that pilot, using radio or other
>> means, for the same reason. The pilot should be allowed to land
>> wheels-up."
>>
>> I understand that this recommendation was made after accidents where the
>> warning was considered to be the cause.
>>
>> W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>> Remove "ic" to reply.
>>
>
Eric Greenwell
> I understand that frequently if someone lands wheel up, when asked if they
> did pre-landing checks they say "oh, yes!". The point of course is that
> those who are taught pre-landing checks are flying training gliders with a
> fixed wheel, and so they are used to saying the check item but doing
> nothing.
Perhaps, if they had a gear up warning system, it would have alerted
them to the put the gear down, and avoided the gear up landing. I find
having the buzzer screech at me is a good training aid, and I redouble
my efforts to avoid it in the future.
The people I know that have landed gear up had 100's (or more) of hours
in the glider they landed gear up, so it seems they were used to "doing
something". The gear up landings I'm familiar with almost always
involved some distraction so that the checks were not done, or the pilot
grabbed the wrong handle, or the gear was down for the whole flight and
raised for landing. Also, the pre-landing checks I was taught did not
involve the gear, flaps, or ballast, as the ASK 13 had none of these,
and I suspect many (most?) US pilots were trained that way. All this
leads me to believe the situation you suggest is a rare one.
Personally, the 3 times my gear up warning saved me, I had 200, 1000,
and 1500 hours in various retractable gear gliders. All involved
distraction.
Mark Dickson
checks, and should be carried out prior to joining
the circuit.
At 19:36 17 November 2005, W.J. \bill\ Dean \u.K.\.
wrote:
>confused with an ability to plan a circuit.'
>
>I understand that frequently if someone lands wheel
>up, when asked if they
>did pre-landing checks they say 'oh, yes!'. The point
>of course is that
>those who are taught pre-landing checks are flying
>training gliders with a
>fixed wheel, and so they are used to saying the check
>item but doing
>nothing.
>
>W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>Remove 'ic' to reply.
>
>>
>> 'Gary Emerson' wrote in message
>> news:1uOef.21784$Zv5....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>>
>>>
>>> W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). wrote:
>>>
Mel Dawson
>One problem with a recorded voice is that it sounds
>like background radio chatter and your brain filters
>it out (or at least mine does)
>Our CFI discovered this the hard way in our brand new
>DG1000. luckily landed on soft grass so no damage.
>
>Incidentally the BGA in the UK does not reccomend an
>undercarriage warning buzzer.
>
>I know of two accidents causing injury, one serious,
>caused by a malfunctioning u/c warning system..
I was taught to look at the u/c lever before going
for the airbrakes and after 3000 hours it hasn't failed.........
yet.
>
>
01-- Zero One
"Mel Dawson" <REMOVE_TO_RE...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:3u4chrF...@individual.net:
Don’t worry, Mel. It will. You are waaaaay past due.
Larry “just get a friggin’ gear warning system!!!” Goddard
“01” USA
Mike Lindsay
>
>Try: http://www.research.att.com/projects/tts/demo.html
>
>Type in whatever message you want, choose the gender and accent of the
>synthetic voice and download the .wav file. A sexy female voice gets my
>attention.
>
>As the gadget makers are now involved, I have a request. How about a small
>box containing a multi-input, line-in, fixed volume, audio mixer with
>amplifier and decent speaker powered by the ships battery. This box would
>have an array of 3mm jacks to receive the audio from the varios, PDA, radio,
>and other gadgets that output audio and play them all through the same
>speaker. Maybe it should fit in a 57mm instrument hole. I think this would
>simplify wiring and improve audio quality.
>
>Bill Daniels
>
We had a little problem with our gear warning. It worked fine
with the glider in the trailer, but in flight it would sound if you
opened the airbrakes whatever the position of the gear. It certainly
made me check the wheel was down and locked.
We put in a new vario this year, the only snag was we had
nowhere to put the speaker except behind the panel. We thought we could
do with a bit more audio. I remembered our radio, a Dittel clone, has an
input for an intercom. We fed the audio from the vario into the radio,
and now we have all the volume we need.
--
Mike Lindsay
Mike Lindsay
the Strike <Strin...@msn.com> writes
>Mike
>
Odd you should say that. There is a lot of talk in this country about
"The Nanny State", by which is meant the propensity of the authorities
to control every aspect of our lives. Perhaps the BGA have been bitten
by the same bug?
--
Mike Lindsay
Don Johnstone
>W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). wrote:
>
>> I understand that frequently if someone lands wheel
>>up, when asked if they
>> did pre-landing checks they say 'oh, yes!'. The
>>point of course is that
>> those who are taught pre-landing checks are flying
>>training gliders with a
>> fixed wheel, and so they are used to saying the check
>>item but doing
>> nothing.
>
As Bill has correctly pointed out the BGA discourage
the use of undercarriage warnings on the grounds that
activation in the late stage of an approach could itself
cause problems. It is better to land wheels up than
loose control trying to put the wheel down close to
the ground. The cure is worse than the disease. It
can be particulary dangerous where the undercarriage
lever is on the right hand side of the cockpit.
The argument still rages over here between the 'configure
the glider for landing' as soon as that decision is
made. and the pre landing mnemonic. Again as Bill pointed
out challenge and response mnemonics tend to become
automatic both in challenge and response, especially
when learned in gliders which do not have water, flaps
or a retractable undercarriage.
Mike the Strike
equipped with a "gear" switch with red and green lights. My instructor
recognized the problem of transitioning from fixed to retractable gear
and taught gear operation from day one. Even flying a stinkpot Cessna
172 these days I find myself reaching for the gear switch!
Also, mnemonics are useful, but can also be problematic. For my glider
training I was taught "USTALL", which unfortunately doesn't prompt you
to drop water ballast. Guess who's landed full of water a few times!
My revised mnemonic is "BUSTALL", which is especially appropriate to
those who don't use it and land gear up!
Mike
Stefan
> The gear up landings I'm familiar with almost always
> involved some distraction so that the checks were not done,
I did my first and (yet) only gear up landing, luckily on grass, with
300 hours, most of them with retractable gear. I know exactly why this
happened: I was on a cross country in an unknown region and had to
outland on a controlled airport. I knew the airport had a grass and a
concrete runway, but wasn't there before and I wasn't prepared to land
there. The runway couldn't be seen during the approach, but only on
downwind. So I had first to decide that I had to land there, then study
the airport chart, talk to them, enter the controlled airspace, follow
their instructions, navigate in an unknown place with an "invisible"
runway, look out for that runway etc., which all broke my routine. I
always do my checks on a certain point during the approach sequence. But
that sequence was broken and additional workload was introduced, and
that got me. I've reviewed my routine since.
Stefan
Gary Boggs
"01-- Zero One" <la...@goddard.com> wrote in message news:u_qdnbrnhLO...@comcast.com...
Tim Ward
"Paul Remde" <pa...@remde.us> wrote in message
news:7KJef.336498$084.184292@attbi_s22...
> Hi,
>
> In addition to the audible signal from the 302 - if you have a 303 it
> displays a text message which makes it obvious what the issue is.
>
> I like the Tasman approach because a voice message should be able to cut
> through all the beeps already going on in the cockpit. I talked to one
user
> who installed them in his gliders at his commercial operation. He said the
> recorded message was "Lower the Fxxxing Landing Gear!" - in an all out
> attempt to get the pilot's attention.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for sources of small magnetic reed
> switches? I sell mechanical microswitches which I have used in the past
and
> like, but I can see the advantages to non-contact switching.
>
> Good Soaring,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
Maybe the hot tip would be to use the sound of something grinding.
In the alarm business, I had a "glass break simulator" that was essentially
a digital recording of breaking glass. That was quite an attention getter.
Tim Ward
Greg Arnold
>
> Maybe the hot tip would be to use the sound of something grinding.
> In the alarm business, I had a "glass break simulator" that was essentially
> a digital recording of breaking glass. That was quite an attention getter.
>
> Tim Ward
>
Or use the sound of the pilot swearing.
Wayne Paul
"Greg Arnold" <Soa...@REMOVEcox.net> wrote in message
news:ptbff.282$qw.222@fed1read07...
Or a Radio Shack piezo buzzer (smoke alarm.) In fact it is so loud that I
mounted it in a sound attenuation box.
It is actuated when flap setting is greater then 40 degrees and gear is up.
Wayne
HP-14 N990 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/N990/N990.html
bumper
My one gear warning save happened while doing touch and goes with my Mooney.
Neglected to raise the gear on take-off, then abeam the numbers, flipped the
gear switch up. Briefly wondered why that darn distracting beep-beep-beep
thing was making such a racket. Within a second or two, came to my senses
and exclaiming to myself, "Holy Bananas" (or some similar, equally
appropriate thing). Switch down, no damage, glad there's a gear warning horn
even though I'm originally a Brit'.
bumper
Don Johnstone
>
>
>Or a Radio Shack piezo buzzer (smoke alarm.) In fact
>it is so loud that I
>mounted it in a sound attenuation box.
>
>It is actuated when flap setting is greater then 40
>degrees and gear is up.
and if that goes off at 50 feet on a marginal final
glide when you have kept the glider clean to get onto
the field?
It is just a question, not meant in any way as a critisism
and I use 'you' in the collective sense.
Don Johnstone
A short story: When I was a lad I was interested in
all things flying and I was in a control tower at an
airfield in the UK. The circuit (pattern) was full
with about 8-10 aircraft performing 'circuits and bumps'
(It was in the days when the RAF were allowed to fly
their aeroplanes). An aircraft turned finals still
well out and a slightly excited voice said on the radio
[callsign] 'lower your undercarriage' The two aircraft
on very late finals promptly retracted their undercarriage
and landed wheels up, lots of sparks and minor panic
in the control tower.
I am sure the man on the radio meant well but the proper
procedure was to fire off a red very light forcing
a go round.
Just an illustration of how a well intentioned warning
can go wrong. I was 14 at the time, the response of
the fire teams was impressive. No pilot was injured
in the telling of this story.
Tony Verhulst
> ..... No pilot was injured
> in the telling of this story.
And this is, by far, the typical outcome of any gear up landing - power
or glider.
Michael Huber
> One problem with a recorded voice is that it sounds
> like background radio chatter and your brain filters
> it out (or at least mine does)
Absolutely true. One member of my club installed a gear warning and recorded
a message on it like "If you´re going to land, lower the gear NOW". He was
the first one to ignore his own message.
On the other hand, I once flew in Hungary, and my brain filtered out all
radio messages which were mostly in Hungarian language. The airport tried to
call me (in English and German) while my workload was high, and they had no
chance to get through to me. Then they had my girlfriend call me on the
radio and got an immediate reply. It seems like somehow I´m conditioned to
listen whenever the boss is speaking ;-))
Michael
Eric Greenwell
> At 03:42 18 November 2005, Wayne Paul wrote:
>
>
>>Or a Radio Shack piezo buzzer (smoke alarm.) In fact
>>it is so loud that I
>>mounted it in a sound attenuation box.
>>
>>It is actuated when flap setting is greater then 40
>>degrees and gear is up.
>
>
> and if that goes off at 50 feet on a marginal final
> glide when you have kept the glider clean to get onto
> the field?
I'm sure Wayne will tell you why this isn't a problem. But, how can we
avoid the problem suggested by the question?
Malfunctioning warnings: one that goes off when it shouldn't shortly
before touch down seems so rare it's not worth worrying about. Gear
warnings save enough damage and blocked runways that I think they add
more safety than this situation subtracts.
Pilots that don't check their spoilers until close to the ground: this
seems like a training issue or self-discipline issue, either about
pre-landing checks, or very marginal returns to the airport.
Pilots who react poorly to a gear warning when low: perhaps this can be
handled as a training issue. I've seen several pilots extend their gear
safely at the last moment (less that 50' above the ground) and land
normally, and never seen an accident from doing that, so it's possible
to do, even with pilots not trained and ready for it. Perhaps pilots
with gear warnings should occasionally practice this at altitude,
opening the spoilers with the gear up, then lowering the gear. The best
procedure for dealing with the warning when close to the ground could be
selected (just put the gear down, or maybe close the spoilers first, or
even "ignore the damn thing and land on the belly").
Frankly, I think we should be a lot more concerned about the lack of a
"unlocked spoiler" alarm, or "canopy unlatched" alarm, than the
potential injuries caused by a gear up alarm. Unlocked spoilers and
unlatched canopies have caused far more accidents than gear warning
systems.
After learning how many pilots in our ASH 26 E owners newsgroup had
taken off with their spoilers unlocked, I added a "spoilers unlocked"
warning to my ASH 26 E. It was easy to do, because my Cambridge 302
vario has this feature built into it. It requires only the usual two
switches, one for the gear down and locked signal, and one for the
spoiler open signal. Of course, it also provides a "gear up" warning. A
nice feature is the gear up warning can be silenced temporarily with a
button press; for example, when I need to use the spoilers to remain
clear of cloud, or descend to fly with a glider lower than me.
Nyal Williams
hard way. Say to yourself 'The gear HANDLE is at the
gear-down ICON. A fellow in Minden told me this beforehand.
I didn't pay a lot of attention. I paid a lot of
money. Now I use this phrase religiously.
I switched between three new to me gliders in 4 days.
The retract movement was in opposite directions on
two of them. I went the lwrong way on the last flight.
Use the words HANDLE and ICON.
At 22:24 16 November 2005, Marc Ramsey wrote:
>Mike the Strike wrote:
>> I prefer check lists, but must note I have seen another
>>colleague
>> return from a flight with gear extended then retract
>>it on final as he
>> went through his pre-landing checks!
>
>Same thing happened to me on my first flight in the
>first glider I
>owned. On pattern entry I went through my pre-landing
>checklist,
>operated the gear handle, opened the spoilers, then
>heard a load beeping
>noise. Closed the spoilers, beeping stopped. It took
>a fair bit of
>contemplation to recognize that the glider might have
>a gear warning
>system. A quick glance at the gear position symbols
>allowed me to solve
>the mystery while still plenty high. I must have forgotten
>to retract
>the gear after release...
>
>Marc
>
Eric Greenwell
> Eric Greenwell <flyg...@charter.netto> wrote:
>
>>After learning how many pilots in our ASH 26 E owners newsgroup had
>>taken off with their spoilers unlocked, I added a "spoilers unlocked"
>>warning to my ASH 26 E. It was easy to do, because my Cambridge 302
>>vario has this feature built into it. It requires only the usual two
>>switches, one for the gear down and locked signal, and one for the
>>spoiler open signal.
>
>
> How does it tell the difference between takeoff - gear down,
> spoilers open and landing - gear down, spoilers open?
It triggers the warning when the spoilers are unlocked and the airspeed
exceeds 25 knots. From the Cambridge manual:
> The audible warning is a “European Police Car” sound. Warnings are heard even though
> the audio volume control is set to zero. Alarms are cancelled by correcting the condition,
> or by tapping on the instrument knob.
and ...
> Try each of the alarm situations regularly during normal glider operation. This tests the
> switches. You will also become familiar with the alarm sound, and get some practice
> correcting each alarm condition. This will help you respond quickly and calmly in a real
> emergency situation.
Todd continues:
>
> I've seen a nice installation that uses a microswitch on the
> towring release mechanism to differentiate take-off from
> landing, but not many are comfortable retrofitting something
> that close to the release mechanism, even where it's legal
> to do so. It would be nice if Tost would build an optional
> switch for this job.
The airspeed method is particularly useful for a self-launching
motorglider, my situation, and is simpler than installing a switch on
the release mechanism (especially on gliders with aero and ground launch
hooks). The 302 vario normally connects to the pitot and static, so no
additional connections are needed beyond the usual spoiler and gear
switches.
Don Johnstone
>Don Johnstone wrote:
>> At 03:42 18 November 2005, Wayne Paul wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Or a Radio Shack piezo buzzer (smoke alarm.) In fact
>>>it is so loud that I
>>>mounted it in a sound attenuation box.
>>>
>>>It is actuated when flap setting is greater then 40
>>>degrees and gear is up.
>>
>>
>> and if that goes off at 50 feet on a marginal final
>> glide when you have kept the glider clean to get onto
>> the field?
>
>I'm sure Wayne will tell you why this isn't a problem.
>But, how can we
>avoid the problem suggested by the question?
You can't if a warning is fitted and I accept that
in some cases it will never be a problem because of
aircraft/approach type.
>Malfunctioning warnings: one that goes off when it
>shouldn't shortly
>before touch down seems so rare it's not worth worrying
>about. Gear
>warnings save enough damage and blocked runways that
>I think they add
>more safety than this situation subtracts.
It is not just a malfunction even a real warning at
that height can distract enough from 'flying the aeroplane'
to turn an incident into a serious crash. I have never
heard of anyone being seriously injured or killed as
the result of a wheels up. There have been accidents
involving serious injury as the result of undercarriage
warnings.
>Pilots that don't check their spoilers until close
>to the ground: this
>seems like a training issue or self-discipline issue,
>either about
>pre-landing checks, or very marginal returns to the
>airport.
Marginal glides are very common in competitions.
>Pilots who react poorly to a gear warning when low:
>perhaps this can be
>handled as a training issue. I've seen several pilots
>extend their gear
>safely at the last moment (less that 50' above the
>ground) and land
>normally, and never seen an accident from doing that,
>so it's possible
>to do, even with pilots not trained and ready for it.
>Perhaps pilots
>with gear warnings should occasionally practice this
>at altitude,
>opening the spoilers with the gear up, then lowering
>the gear.
There is a world of difference between deliberately
leaving the gear selection to very late to achieve
the best glide and being startled by a sudden loud
noise in the cockpit. It is the unexpected and the
'instinctive' reaction that is the root of the problem.
The best
>procedure for dealing with the warning when close to
>the ground could be
>selected (just put the gear down, or maybe close the
>spoilers first, or
>even 'ignore the damn thing and land on the belly').
The last is the only option imo which begs the question...........
Mike Lindsay
LY.donjay401...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
chaps used to make their finals call "Finals, three greens" There was
always a spare pilot in the tower to ensure the wheels really were down,
and they weren't just calling three greens out of habit.
>
--
Mike Lindsay
Eric Greenwell
> It is not just a malfunction even a real warning at
> that height can distract enough from 'flying the aeroplane'
> to turn an incident into a serious crash. I have never
> heard of anyone being seriously injured or killed as
> the result of a wheels up. There have been accidents
> involving serious injury as the result of undercarriage
> warnings.
This seems to be a UK problem, not a US problem. Have other countries
experienced the UK situation? Do other national gliding organizations
recommend against gear warning devices (the SSA in the US does not)? Are
there any US pilots that wish they had not installed a gear warning device?
>
>>Pilots that don't check their spoilers until close
>>to the ground: this
>>seems like a training issue or self-discipline issue,
>>either about
>>pre-landing checks, or very marginal returns to the
>>airport.
>
>
> Marginal glides are very common in competitions.
The US is working on this problem, at least for the final glide. The
major concern is the marginal glide, not the possibility of an accident
caused by a gear warning device. I imagine an attempt to ban gear
warning devices from contests would be even more unpopular the new ELT
requirement!
>>Perhaps pilots
>>with gear warnings should occasionally practice this
>>at altitude,
>>opening the spoilers with the gear up, then lowering
>>the gear.
>
>
> There is a world of difference between deliberately
> leaving the gear selection to very late to achieve
> the best glide and being startled by a sudden loud
> noise in the cockpit. It is the unexpected and the
> 'instinctive' reaction that is the root of the problem.
I can't say for sure practicing would be effective, but I think it would
help. We practice for other unexpected things, like rope breaks.
Gary Emerson
"unlocked spoiler" alarm, or "canopy unlatched" alarm, than the
potential injuries caused by a gear up alarm. Unlocked spoilers and
unlatched canopies have caused far more accidents than gear warning
systems. "
This would be especially true if you look at the canopy design on the
new LS-11 that's mentioned just a few articles away on RAS. If that
sucker isn't locked it's gonna be GONE and if it hits the tail it's
going to make a mighty mess of things.
Andy
airspeed
exceeds 25 knots."
The same conditions are satisfied for landing approach with the gear
down. I expect the answer is that the 302, containing a full airdata
and GPS system, can easily determine that a takeoff has started.
Indeed, it does that to start the logger function.
I use the airbrake warning of the 302 as well. It usually bitches at
me for just one cycle on takeoff as I always use the airbrakes until I
have good aileron control.
Andy
Gordon Schubert
My experience with retractable landing gear was somewhat
limited. At the end of my sixth flight I crossed the
field to check on traffic and turned into the pattern.
I announced my downwind and started my landing checklist.
Just as was about to drop my gear an ultralight pulled
into the middle of the hard surfaced runway and stopped
and just sat there. As I was contemplating what to
do (I land on the hard surface because of gopher holes
on the narrow grass strip and rough ground) a power
plane announced that it had entered it's downwind for
the same runway. I was now 2/3 thru my downwind. Just
as I was turning to base, our Grob two place motor
glider's pilot called that he was coming in for an
emergency landing. He had smoke in the cockpit. So
now I was looking for him also. It turned out that
he was behind me as I turned to final and I decided
to land long on our 3500 ft runway.
On final the runway looked clear, the ultralight had
taken off in front of me and I started to relax. As
I came in over the end of the runway at about 100 ft
I saw everyone waving at me and thought of how nice
it was of them to do that. I was getting lower and
started to flare and it hit me. S***, my gear! I slammed
the spoilers shut and in one quick motion shifted my
left hand to the stick and my right hand rammed the
gear down. Fortunately, I was able to get it locked.
I hit the ground a split second later. My friends that
were watching said that I was 4-6 ft off of the ground
when the gear came down.
After this adventure, I spoke with 2 of our instructors
seeking advice on what I could do to prevent this from
happening again. One of them suggested something that
he said military pilots sometimes use.
When I announce my downwind, at the end of the announcement
while still on the radio I also say 'Gear is down and
locked'. I have not had another incident since, but
I still intend to install a gear warning system. Not
only would it have gone off when I first checked my
spoilers upon entering downwind but again on final.
GORDY
Gordon Schubert
Eric Greenwell
> "It triggers the warning when the spoilers are unlocked and the
> airspeed
> exceeds 25 knots."
>
> The same conditions are satisfied for landing approach with the gear
> down. I expect the answer is that the 302, containing a full airdata
> and GPS system, can easily determine that a takeoff has started.
> Indeed, it does that to start the logger function.
I wrote that poorly. This is what the manual says: "When airspeed rises
above 25 knots, the alarm sounds". Just having the airspeed above 25
knots won't do it, as you note, it is the "rising above".
Mark Dickson
>>After this adventure, I spoke with 2 of our instructors
>seeking advice on what I could do to prevent this from
>happening again. >
How about just doing your pre-landing checks properly.
You only need to check 4 things: water-ballast, U/C,
loose-articles(straps) and flaps. It takes seconds.
Ramy
What about radio, speed, trim, spoiler, traffic and landing area?
No doubt checklists reduce the chance for errors, but it is naive to
believe they will always save your butt, cause when something goes
wrong, which result in distraction, first thing you'll forget/skip is
your check list...
Ramy (who found his gear alarm works as designed last flight)
Mark Dickson
>
>
>What about radio, speed, trim, spoiler, traffic and
>landing area?
>No doubt checklists reduce the chance for errors, but
>it is naive to
>believe they will always save your butt, cause when
>something goes
>wrong, which result in distraction, first thing you'll
>forget/skip is
>your check list...
>
They don't need a checklist, they are part and parcel
of flying your glider. Change speed - trim, lookout
for other traffic - basic airmanship. If you need
a checklist for them you're going to have problems.
>
>
Eric Greenwell
> Eric Greenwell <flyg...@charter.netto> wrote:
>
>
>>>How does it tell the difference between takeoff - gear down,
>>>spoilers open and landing - gear down, spoilers open?
>>
>>It triggers the warning when the spoilers are unlocked and the airspeed
>>exceeds 25 knots. From the Cambridge manual:
>
>
> I don't quite follow this. I land with an airspeed over 25
> knots and I take off with an airspeed over 25 knots. That
> would make it sound when landing with the gear down,
> airspeed above 25 knots, and brakes open - i.e., the normal
> approach. Does it watch to see if the airspeed was first
> below 25 knots? Does it cut off when above 35 knots and
> only sound during the takeoff roll?
The trigger isn't the airspeed value, but the rise in airspeed from
below 25 knot to above 25 knots. This happens only during the takeoff
roll. My apologies for not stating this clearly the first time. The
system does work well, and none of the pilots I know that are using it
get false alarms during flight or landing.
Nigel Pocock
>At 21:54 16 November 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
>>If it was...your wife's voice on the recording do you
>>
>>think you would still filter it out?
>
>Wow, nobody bit on this one?
>
>9B
I am married - of course I filter out what she is saying
most of the time, I would go bonkers other wise.
Luckily she dosnt read this site ):-
Bob Gibbons
glider, one of the first things I add is two small squares of colored
plastic tape, a green block at the end of the "gear down and locked"
end of the handle travel, and a red block at the "gear retracted" end
of the handle travel.
As I turn final, I will often take a quick glance at the gear lever to
make sure it is at the "green" end.
Bob
On 18 Nov 2005 16:45:40 GMT, Nyal Williams
Ramy Yanetz
news:3u8k5tF...@individual.net...
I agree traffic and landing area may not need checklist, but definitely
checking radio frequency and volume, trim for pattern speed and checking the
spoilers must be part of every landing checklist.
Ramy
Mark Dickson
>
>I agree traffic and landing area may not need checklist,
>but definitely
>checking radio frequency and volume, trim for pattern
>speed and checking the
>spoilers must be part of every landing checklist.
>
>Ramy
>
If I've been flying in icing conditions (wave) I'll
try the airbrakes on the way down, apart from that
it is not necessary to check them prior to landing.
I don't adopt the approach speed until just prior
to base leg and I always trim after changing speed
whenever I'm flying, so why have it as part of a checklist?
The radio check may be valid in the States but isn't
necessary in the UK.
>
Eric Greenwell
> At 07:18 20 November 2005, Ramy Yanetz wrote:
>
>>I agree traffic and landing area may not need checklist,
>>but definitely
>>checking radio frequency and volume, trim for pattern
>>speed and checking the
>>spoilers must be part of every landing checklist.
>>
>>Ramy
>>
>
> Personally, they are not part of my pre-landing checks.
> If I've been flying in icing conditions (wave) I'll
> try the airbrakes on the way down, apart from that
> it is not necessary to check them prior to landing.
> I don't adopt the approach speed until just prior
> to base leg and I always trim after changing speed
> whenever I'm flying, so why have it as part of a checklist?
To ensure they do operate (freezing shut is not the only way for them to
fail) and to activate the gear warning device.
> The radio check may be valid in the States but isn't
> necessary in the UK.
Is that because the field frequency is the same as the one you use
during the flight, or because the glider fields you use don't use a
radio in the pattern? I'm assuming you'd use the radio at a regular
airport with mixed traffic.
Robin Birch
lowered the U/C but not locked it home properly.
On the other side I personally know two very experienced pilots on the
types they were flying who happily landed with no wheel despite the
incessant beeping.
Personally I think the BGA is right in that I'd much rather land with
the wheel up than stall at 10 feet up despite the cost that could ensue.
Mind you my Astir would probably win even if I landed on the tarmac :-)
Cheers
Robin
In message <437fd039....@news.comcast.giganews.com>, Bob Gibbons
<bob-g...@raytheon.com> writes
--
Robin Birch
Mark Dickson
>
>To ensure they do operate (freezing shut is not the
>only way for them to
>fail) and to activate the gear warning device.
>
>> The radio check may be valid in the States but isn't
>> necessary in the UK.
>
>Is that because the field frequency is the same as
>the one you use
>during the flight, or because the glider fields you
>use don't use a
>radio in the pattern? I'm assuming you'd use the radio
>at a regular
>airport with mixed traffic.
>
>
>--
>Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
>
>Eric Greenwell
>Washington State
>USA
>
take-off, and you have not been flying in icing conditions,
they will open when you want them to. I've never heard
of airbrakes failing in flight and if they did so what?
You'll find out when you unlock them on base leg.
As for opening them to activate the gear warner, well
that sounds a bit Irish to me. How about carrying
out the gear part of the checks? The radio is not
a necessary part of pre-landing checks, I and any other
glider pilot in the UK would be very unpopular if they
landed at an airport; and if you were tempted to, the
radio call should be made well before the point at
which the pre-landing checks are carried out. (Most
glider pilots in the UK do not have RT licences and
so couldn't legally make the calls anyway).
The point I'm trying to make Eric is that for checks
to be effective and not missed, they should only include
those things that are really necessary to check. The
pre-landing checks I, and a lot of clubs use, are WULF:
waterballast, U/C, loose articles(including straps)
and flaps. In my opinion that is all you need to methodically
check to make a safe approach and landing, anything
else (apart maybe for radio in the States, as you obviously
do land at airports) is superfluous.
I also think these checks should be done prior to joining
the circuit, so that there are no distractions from
carrying them out and so that full concentration can
be given to flying the glider around the pattern and
looking out for other a/c on the ground and in the
air.
Mark
Bill Daniels
> If you checked your airbrakes at the DI and prior to
> take-off, and you have not been flying in icing conditions,
> they will open when you want them to. I've never heard
> of airbrakes failing in flight and if they did so what?
I have had only one spoiler deploy. I was glad I checked them early because
it gave me the opportunity to extend the downwind a bit to compensate.
But, you are right. This is very rare. A more justifiable reason to check
the spoiler/airbrake is to insure your hand is on the right control. Once
you hand is on the airbrake control, keep it there through the rest of the
landing. Yes, I know, you should LOOK at a control before placing a hand on
it but we all know of accidents/incidents where the wrong control was
selected.
Bill Daniels
Tony Verhulst
> Personally I think the BGA is right in that I'd much rather land with
> the wheel up than stall at 10 feet up despite the cost that could ensue.
The point is that very, very, few flights arrive for a landing without
opening the spoilers for the first time (when the warning would go off)
at 10 ft off the ground. Much more often that happens much earlier when
it's quite safe to lower the gear and still make a safe landing.
At 10 feet, I would agree that for most pilots it would be best to leave
the gear where it is.
Tony V.
Ramy
you are in the pattern is always a good idea), it is frequency check (I
often hear pilots calling their pattern on the wrong frequency they
used for air to air), and volume check to make sure your volume is not
down since your last low save. I am very suprised to hear that most
pilots in the UK can not use the radio legally, or am I missing
something?
I agree the list should kept to minmum, but your list has an item which
very much belongs to takeoff checklist, not landing list, unless I
missundersood it: Loose articles (including straps) - I rather
eliminate those *prior* to take off.
Ramy
Eric Greenwell
> At 21:36 20 November 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
>>To ensure they do operate (freezing shut is not the
>>only way for them to
>>fail) and to activate the gear warning device.
>>
>>
>>> The radio check may be valid in the States but isn't
>>>necessary in the UK.
>>
>>Is that because the field frequency is the same as
>>the one you use
>>during the flight, or because the glider fields you
>>use don't use a
>>radio in the pattern? I'm assuming you'd use the radio
>>at a regular
>>airport with mixed traffic.
> If you checked your airbrakes at the DI and prior to
> take-off, and you have not been flying in icing conditions,
> they will open when you want them to. I've never heard
> of airbrakes failing in flight and if they did so what?
I had the airbrakes on a Blanik fail to open on the pre-landing checks,
even though they operated correctly before takeoff. The sheet metal lip
caught on the edge of the spoiler box, a problem that didn't show up in
the heat of the afternoon. So, I'm sensitive to this. I agree it's rare.
> You'll find out when you unlock them on base leg.
Base leg? I generally don't open them until I turn final. I don't like
opening them on base leg because it makes the turn to final occur at a
lower altitude, and it raises the stall speed. I will open them on the
base leg, or even downwind if it's very important to land as soon as
possible, but not for a normal landing.
> As for opening them to activate the gear warner, well
> that sounds a bit Irish to me. How about carrying
> out the gear part of the checks?
Great idea, which I fully support, but in the first 1500 hours I flew, I
missed it three times due to distractions. I know other pilots that
have also done the same thing, and are pleased they had a gear warner. I
don't know any pilot that is unhappy he installed one. The UK position
was quite a surprise to me. If US pilots routinely landed on grass
fields instead of paved ones, perhaps they would not like gear warners
so much.
> The radio is not
> a necessary part of pre-landing checks, I and any other
> glider pilot in the UK would be very unpopular if they
> landed at an airport; and if you were tempted to, the
> radio call should be made well before the point at
> which the pre-landing checks are carried out. (Most
> glider pilots in the UK do not have RT licences and
> so couldn't legally make the calls anyway).
This is very different from the situation in the US, where flying from
and landing at public airports is common (mostly non-towered municipal
airports). We are expected to announce our intended landing at the
airport from about 5 miles out, then pattern entry, and typically the
turns to base and final. The frequency is different from the glider
frequency. Doing it on the wrong frequency isn't useful. A license is
not required in the US.
> The point I'm trying to make Eric is that for checks
> to be effective and not missed, they should only include
> those things that are really necessary to check.
Agreed.
> The
> pre-landing checks I, and a lot of clubs use, are WULF:
> waterballast, U/C, loose articles(including straps)
> and flaps. In my opinion that is all you need to methodically
> check to make a safe approach and landing, anything
> else (apart maybe for radio in the States, as you obviously
> do land at airports) is superfluous.
> I also think these checks should be done prior to joining
> the circuit, so that there are no distractions from
> carrying them out and so that full concentration can
> be given to flying the glider around the pattern and
> looking out for other a/c on the ground and in the
> air.
Agreed. I typically do them on the 45 degree entry to the downwind leg,
or the crosswind leg.
Graeme Cant
> The point is that very, very, few flights arrive for a landing without
> opening the spoilers for the first time (when the warning would go off)
> at 10 ft off the ground. Much more often that happens much earlier when
> it's quite safe to lower the gear and still make a safe landing.
>
> At 10 feet, I would agree that for most pilots it would be best to leave
> the gear where it is.
I agree. It seems to me that the BGA's recommendation is poorly thought
out. Every other sphere of aviation with a retractable gear has made
warning systems compulsory and while gear errors still occur the
frequency is quite low. In particular, the warning system is not blamed
for the accident - which is the topsy-turvy logic of the BGA's policy.
In most of aviation, accidents involving gear warnings are (rightly)
attributed to poor pilot training or lack of familiarity/recency on type
and something is done about the training system and the pilot's competence.
Blaming the warning system is irrational.
Graeme Cant
>
> Tony V.
Mike Lindsay
LY.mark....@tesco.net> writes
an airfield, and that includes grass strips.
To us Limeys, an airport is something like Heathrow, or JFK.
--
Mike Lindsay
Don Johnstone
they are pointing out is that gear warning systems
can be a double edged sword. While they may be appropriate
for private gliders flown by experienced pilots who
have worked out a plan to react to they may not be
appropriate for gliders flown by pilots with a broad
ability and experience spread.
They also push the idea that there is no substitute
for airmanship and configuring a glider for the intended
stage of flight is basic airmanship. By all means use
warning gizzmos as a backup, we all make mistakes,
but relying on them to remove or reduce the need for
proper airmanship is not the way to go. Remember that
many safety rules assume the worst case scenario and
of course mainly legislate for the less knowledgeable.
Competent pilots don't need to know there is a rule,
barring mistakes they fly sensibly anyway.
Mark Newton
Don Johnstone <REMOVE_TO_REPLY.do...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
> I don't think the BGA's logic is at all at fault. What
> they are pointing out is that gear warning systems
> can be a double edged sword. While they may be appropriate
> for private gliders flown by experienced pilots who
> have worked out a plan to react to they may not be
> appropriate for gliders flown by pilots with a broad
> ability and experience spread.
While I'm reading all this, I'm thinking something isn't
adding up.
Gear warning systems go off if the airbrakes are opened
while the gear is retracted, right?
Now think of the BGA's position: They're worried about
damage and injury caused by a gear warning which goes off
last the last minute, causing a pilot to lose control
of the landing as they fumble the controls as they drop
the undercarriage.
... which is what doesn't add up. What kind of pilot does
the BGA think is going to be surprised by a gear warning
buzzer when they're close to the ground? I mean, seriously,
if a pilot has managed to get to 10 or 20 feet off the ground
before they've opened the airbrakes then their training has
bigger problems than anything that can be solved by talking
about the importance of pre-landing checks! Surely in the
real world the gear warning alert goes off near the top of
final approach, just after the pilot has identified an
overshoot situation and opted to open the airbrakes, right?
We're obviously all missing something here. What has
prompted the BGA to issue a position paper which, on first
appearances, makes no sense?
- mark
Don Johnstone
>In article ,
> Don Johnstone
>
>> I don't think the BGA's logic is at all at fault.
>>What
>> they are pointing out is that gear warning systems
>> can be a double edged sword. While they may be appropriate
>> for private gliders flown by experienced pilots who
>> have worked out a plan to react to they may not be
>> appropriate for gliders flown by pilots with a broad
>> ability and experience spread.
>
>While I'm reading all this, I'm thinking something
>isn't
>adding up.
>
>Gear warning systems go off if the airbrakes are opened
>
>while the gear is retracted, right?
>
>Now think of the BGA's position: They're worried about
>damage and injury caused by a gear warning which goes
>off
>last the last minute, causing a pilot to lose control
>
>of the landing as they fumble the controls as they
>drop
>the undercarriage.
>
>does
>the BGA think is going to be surprised by a gear warning
>buzzer when they're close to the ground? I mean, seriously,
>if a pilot has managed to get to 10 or 20 feet off
>the ground
>before they've opened the airbrakes then their training
>has
>bigger problems than anything that can be solved by
>talking
>about the importance of pre-landing checks! Surely
>in the
>real world the gear warning alert goes off near the
>top of
>final approach, just after the pilot has identified
>an
>overshoot situation and opted to open the airbrakes,
>right?
>
>We're obviously all missing something here. What has
>
>prompted the BGA to issue a position paper which, on
>first
>appearances, makes no sense?
>
> - mark
I suspect that where the confusion has arisen is a
difference in the way in which we operate. The emphasis
in the UK is very much directed towards cross country
flying. A new student is introduced to soaring at a
very early stage and even in early training, as soon
as they are able are encouraged to soar. Circuit bashing
only takes place when soaring is not possible. It is
also important to realise that with very few exceptions
gliding does not take place at airports or even airfields,
the majority of clubs have their own field, often grass
and in general do not share with powered aircraft.
Take offs and landings are not controlled in the normal
sense, there is no ATC and in the majority of cases
no approach radio. Pilots do, either through an error
of skill or error of judgement sometimes get it wrong
and arrive back at the field with less height than
they should. The stress of wondering if they are going
to get back has already caused them to forget the undercarriage
and they do not use the spoiler/airbrakes because the
glide is marginal. They arrive back very low. Given
that the pilot may already be stressed the question
is then, is it likely to be less harmful to the pilot
for him to land without the wheel down than it would
be to startle him with a sudden noise and have him
struggle to get the wheel down when he shoud be flying
the airplane. Several accidents were identified where
it was found that the sudden noise distracted an already
stressed pilot from the primary aim of landing the
glider and instead of a minor incident a more serious
accident occurred. Landing on grass in most gliders
with the wheel in the bay will cause much embarrasment
but little damage, the same cannot be said for a loss
of control resulting in a firmer impact. The warning
was never the cause of the accident but it was a contributory
factor, the primary cause was the error of skill or
error of judgement in failing to properly configure
the glider. It is only advice, something to consider,
and as I said before fitting the warning can be a double
edged sword. I think everyone accepts that it is a
matter for each individual pilot to decide whether
to fit the warning device to their own glider. Fitting
in club aircraft flown by pilots who may or may not
have the skill to get away with a late u/c selection
is discouraged for the reason outlined above.
Of course pilots are trained to arrive back with sufficient
height but they do get it wrong and finishing a competition
task with a marginal final glide and landing ahead
is very common and perfectly valid, until you get it
wrong that is.
I recall my first flight in an ASW19. I spent most
of the approach recycling the undercarriage to try
and get rid of the noise instead of concentrating on
flying the glider. I got away with it, more by luck
than judgement. The cause of the noise, a short in
the warning system, the cause of the crash had there
been one, an error of skill on my part. Fly the airplane!!!!!!!!
>
Gary Emerson
> Greetings all, I am looking for a drawing that depicts the electrical
> wiring of a DG-300. Does anyone know of a link or have a basic drawing
> of a gear warning system?
>
> Thank you in advace
>
>
Sounds like the BGA could stand to take a new look at what they have
written. Perhaps instead of saying that gear warning devices are NOT
recommended they should say that "if a gear warning device is installed,
be aware of the fact that there have been some accidents in the final
stages of an approach where the pilot finally realized his gear wasn't
down" "If you find yourself in this situation, recognize that you may
be better off landing gear up than crashing your glider"
"If you install a gear warning device or purchase a glider with a device
installed, be sure to familiarize yourself with the device and check
your spoilers prior to, or at the onset of, the start of your pattern to
allow you to correct an unextended gear situation early on."
Tony Verhulst
> I don't think the BGA's logic is at all at fault. What
> they are pointing out is that gear warning systems
> can be a double edged sword.
The BGA's policy (as reported in this forum was "Incidentally the BGA in
the UK does not reccomend an undercarriage warning buzzer." I would like
to read their logic. There is no mention of it in the BGA Instructors'
Manual (second edition).
I've seen a bunch of gear up landings (once from the inside of the
cockpit :-( ) and none of them has a gear warning. I understand that
this is a small sample. My vote is to have the warning. If you first
hear it 10 feet of off the deck, ignore it.
> By all means use
> warning gizzmos as a backup, we all make mistakes,
> but relying on them to remove or reduce the need for
> proper airmanship is not the way to go.
I completely agree with this.
Tony V