SZD 59
Robert Goubitz
> Does anyone have any impressions on the SZD-59 Acro? I had read something in
> soaring magazine to the effect that the ship has no stall warning buffet and
> enters easily into a spin? Is this entirely true? Is it still a good ship, and
> is it suitable for a LOW time pilot?
>
> Steve
It is a nice flying, very capable airplane. The elevator starts buzzing slightly
approaching stall speed and that is probably a little less pronounced than in some
other airplanes but then again, when things get a little quiet it's time to pay
attention in any airplane. It doesn't enter easily into a spin, you really need to
be cross controlled. It has a very powerful rudder to do so, therefore if you step
on it at the wrong time, sure it will spin. On the other hand, the big rudder also
can get you out of impending trouble when used correctly.
The cockpit is quiet and controls responsive. Especially with the tips removed it
has a fast roll rate.
What is a LOW time pilot? After all, it's exposure to different conditions and
situations that make up experience. Your best bet is to get an evaluation flight
from your CFI in a high performance twin seater and talk about it. You can have
100 flights in varying conditions and have been scared a couple of times by a more
slippery transition trainer and be ready to fly this airplane but I wouldn't say
it's the perfect first airplane to own for someone who is just coming up from
basic trainers. No matter what, the combination of getting to know a new airplane
while exploring flight in general will involve trial and error at some point.
But it is not a tricky airplane to fly.
--
Robert Goubitz
SZD-59 "17X"
Da2071lV
Eric June
I had an SZD-59 until I spun it into a forest and almost killed myself
last September. If you read the safety column in this month's Soaring
magazine, you can get the details. I loved the glider up until the
moment I spun in, and even nailed my diamond goal with it. I'd like to
own another one some day, after I have about 300 hours under my belt. I
had about 100 hours when my accident occurred.
I'm sure that I must have done something wrong to get the glider into a
spin (no glider will spin unless it is both stalled and the controls are
uncoordinated) but I don't recall anything specific. I do distinctly
recall that the spin began without warning. There wasn't a shudder, a
buffet, or any other indication as there would likely be in more docile
ships. It tucked quickly and away we went. For this reason, I would
recommend that you get at least a few hundred hours in your logbook,
then hop in the 59.
If you go for it anyway, then strap on a chute, take a high tow, and
spin it silly. It does recover using the normal technique of neutral
stick and full opposite rudder. I had fully stopped the rotation and
was in the process of recovering airspeed in a shallow, straight ahead
dive when I impacted the tree tops.
Good luck on whatever you decide!
--
Regards,
Eric June
er...@kudonet.com
SZD-59 "SE"
Hang Gliding Page: http://home.kudonet.com/~ericj/hang.htm
John Cochrane
> I'm sure that I must have done something wrong to get the glider into a
> spin (no glider will spin unless it is both stalled and the controls are
> uncoordinated) but I don't recall anything specific. I do distinctly
> recall that the spin began without warning. There wasn't a shudder, a
> buffet, or any other indication as there would likely be in more docile
> ships. It tucked quickly and away we went. For this reason, I would
> recommend that you get at least a few hundred hours in your logbook,
> then hop in the 59.
>
> If you go for it anyway, then strap on a chute, take a high tow, and
> spin it silly.
Almost all single-seat fiberglass gliders ( all the ones I have flown, and
all the ones I have heard about from others) exhibit a very sharp spin entry
from a slow skidding turn. This doesn't sound like a peculiarity of the szd
59 (which I haven't flown, but Eric's description of the spin entry sounds
the same). The trouble is, none of the common trainers do this, so it's hard
to prepare for it. Also, many fiberglass gliders will do a level spin entry
about like the trainers -- lots of buffet, and often a mushy period as you
feel the spin develop-- which gives a false sense of security.
The eye-opening exercise for me was, as described in one of Tom Knauff's
books, to try the "slow turn from base to final" scenario. Fly slowly, but
not so slowly that you're buffeting; start a shallow turn, think about being
distracted by looking up at another glider, or checking out a field, and
start a skid with in-turn rudder. It will "tuck quickly and away we went".
The first time I did this, in a Pegasus, I was shocked to be suddenly
pointed straight down, with none of the buffeting and mushing familiar from
Blanik spin entries.
So, I second Eric's advice, but I would apply it to any finberglass glider.
I wouldn't restrict moving to such a glider to people with 300 hours (unless
the 59 has some other really peculiar behavior). This is a known feature of
almost all such gliders, and you can prepare for it with normal levels of
experience. I would advise at least practicing the maneuver with an
instructor first; and I would advise getting some familiarity with the
glider in local conditions before trying these spins. The different behavior
and slipperiness at high speeds make spinning many single seat fiberglass
gliders an exiting event, not one for your first flight.
John Cochrane
Bob Lepp
will demonstrate the 'slow, flat, stretching out the glide, turn to
final' abrupt wing drop. It just drops out...right now!
Our CFI came across the trait and then passed along the experience at
altitude to many of us. Since then, whenever close to the ground, all I
hear is 'air speed', 'air speed' in my mind.
The typical 2-33 seems so hard to get into a similar mode, so I was glad
to learn the easy way.
And is spin training still rare in the U.S. training programs? Here in
Canada we still do extensive spin familiarization in club training. I
think it must have helped me stay totally aware of the possibilities.
Waiting for spring.....
Bob
James Tsillas
If you have access to a SGS 2-32, I believe it is a great 2 seater for
spin training. It has a very powerful elevator and rudder and an abrupt
stall. Find an instructor who has alot of time in one and have him
demonstrate it. It is really an awesome experience and will be a very
valuable reminder to you to keep that yaw string straight and pay
attention to your air speed through the pattern.
-Jim.
--
____________
| /\ |
| / \ | * Jim Tsillas - Principal Software Engineer *
| / ** \ | * Ascend Communications, Inc. *
| / **** \ | * 1 Robbins Road, Westford MA 01886 *
| / ** \ | * (978) 952-1382 jim.t...@ascend.com *
|/ \| * http://www.ascend.com *
A S C E N D * http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/jtsilla *
VW
told by several very experienced pilots that the 55 "has a reputation for
nasty spin characteristics". Since I had never had it anywhere near a spin,
I decided to test this out one day. So first I tried a few (unsuccessful)
incipients where I gently cross-controlled the glider and brought the stick
gradually back. It produced very noticeable signals that things were going
badly when I was gentle - vibration followed by a dropped wing that was easy
to bring back up with the rudder. I finally gave up and did the vicious
thing.
I increased airspeed to about 65-70 knots, then hauled the stick back and
cross-controlled. It finally did a very entertaining, "vicious" spin. But it
required a LOT of effort! And after two turns, I let go of the controls, and
it pretty much recovered on its own.
The point is, it took a lot of abuse to do this. I personally think that the
55 is a very sweet-handling glider, reputation notwithstanding.
Why am I even mentioning this? Because the 55 and 59 are NOT big name-brand
gliders. And unfortunately, the local (US) agents for big name brands love
to denigrate lesser brands (see a recent ad for parachutes for an appalling
example). These people should know better since they sell reputable
equipment that doesn't need any aggressive selling, and indeed have done us
a great service by supporting these products. But there it is - these people
love to sell their equipment by claiming that everything else is bad. This
sort of comparative advertising without foundation is in my opinion an
immoral and unnecessary component of our sport.
So... expect to hear bad things about any equipment that isn't made by the
Big Two. The US agents for these products just love to tell us how bad
everything else is... often without foundation. I find this really
irritating, since I love the products that they sell - works of love created
by extraordinarily dedicated firms - and I find this nonsense completely
unnecessary.
ALL glassfibre gliders have the sort of characteristics that John Cochrane
discussed. Get high and practice spins to get used to it. NOT in a 2-32
since that has completely different characteristics to a high-performance
glider. But take suggestions that PZL Bielsko and similar manufacturers
produce gliders with "vicious" spin characteristics with a pinch of salt.
...Of course, this is merely IMHO...
Andrew Ainslie
Da2071lV
now confirmed what I always believed: that the SZD-59 has fairly normal flight
characteristics and is not a slippery beast. Special thanks to Eric June for
his real life experiences! Unfortunately, the greatest danger in all soaring,
money, likely prevents me from getting a new acro. However, I do think a used
Standard Jantar would bring me almost as much pleasure for a lesser price, with
the same flight characteristics
I have learned are becoming of the SZD-59. Thanks again to all!
Steve
Wings
--
Da2071lV <da20...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990203215104...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
Steve,
though I have not flown the SZD-59 I once owned an earlier SZD-41 Jantar
Standard (among a whole bunch of other sailplanes!) and I think if you're
reasonably experienced in modern higher performance sailplanes you will find
the Jantar Standard is a very nice flying and enjoyable sailplane for what
is today a very reasonable investment. The Jantar series are all extremely
strong and all offered comparable performance to their contemporary
counterparts. So if a new sailplane is not in the budget, don't
despair...there are plenty of good used sailplanes out there that will give
you hundreds of enjoyable hours....good luck!
tim
Visit Our Web Site: http://www.glider.com/wings
Nils Hoimyr
As a co-owner of a Jantar-STD3 now upgrading to SZD-55 I can indeed
confirm that these gliders do not have nasty stall characteristics.
SZD gliders do in general spin when provoked, but the stall buffet
is enough to warn you that things are going badly, it's getting quiet,
controls are like syrup and it shakes.
Other gliders might not spin that easily, but full of water
and in turbulent conditions ANY glider can give
you a nasty surprise. So be prepared for it, keep your speed and
make sure you know how to recover quicly from a spin!
Stall and spin recovery training should be MANDATORY before sending
people solo, this is the case in most countries in Europe.
The people talking about the "bad stall characteristics" of SZD gliders
very often tend to be guys who have never flown one! Some also
unrightfully
denounce East European gliders as "Flying Ladas", but this is often to
protect their own investments in (German) gliders! It is true that the
Jantar finish is not always up to German standards, but the quality of
workmanship on recent SZD gliders is excellent and I have seen several
SZD-55's with way better finish from the factory than what for
instance our club's LS4 had coming out the factory some years ago.
Most modern gliders are excellent, stay objective and refer to
test sources such as Dick Johnson and Idaflieg.
Looking forward to spring, and happy landings!
Nils
SZD-48-3 'RJ', 55 'IG'
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Nils J. Hřimyr Email: Nils....@cern.ch
CERN, Division IT Tel: +41.22.767-2945
CH-1211 GENEVE 23 Fax: +41.22.767-7155
SUISSE/SWITZERLAND URL: http://wwwinfo.cern.ch/~hoimyr
--------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffry Stetson
>Why am I even mentioning this? Because the 55 and 59 are NOT big name-brand
>gliders. And unfortunately, the local (US) agents for big name brands love
>to denigrate lesser brands (see a recent ad for parachutes for an appalling
>example).
They sure do. Plenty of talk about "nasty" I.S. Larks for example but not a
peep about the problems discoverd by the Air Force Academy with the ASK-21
under certain conditions. Could it be that since the german brands are so
ridiculously expensive that the only way they can "compete" is to bad mouth
the opposition?
--
Jeffry Stetson ... now: Salto H-101 aerobatic sailplane
then: Mooney M20C & M20E, Citabria 7ECA
Kai Lindenberg
Nils Hoimyr <Nils....@cern.ch> schrieb im Beitrag
<36B99527...@cern.ch>...
> I fully agree with Andrew's posting on this subject!
> ....
Me too,
I have a SZD 55/1 and I am very satisfied with it. I flew it 700 hours. I
couldn't recognize a dangerous behavior. Before a spin there are a lot of
signal. And if you want to spin you can do it. It spins fast and it is easy
to recover. The workmanship is excellent and the raw material the buy in
Gemany.
bye, kai
SZD55/1, D-9551, LY
Cyril Williams
Stetson) wrote:
>
> >
> >Why am I even mentioning this? Because the 55 and 59 are NOT big
> name-brand
> >gliders. And unfortunately, the local (US) agents for big name brands
> love
> >to denigrate lesser brands (see a recent ad for parachutes for an
> appalling
> >example).
>
> They sure do. Plenty of talk about "nasty" I.S. Larks for example but not
> a
>
> peep about the problems discoverd by the Air Force Academy with the ASK-21
>
> under certain conditions. Could it be that since the german brands are so
>
> ridiculously expensive that the only way they can "compete" is to bad
> mouth
> the opposition?
>
What problems with the ASK-21? I fly one of these, is it anything I should
know?
--
_ ___
/ ' ,/ ____________|____________
(_\//^// v e-mail: willi...@argonet.co.uk
/
Bob Hills
I have to concur with the above sentiment as I have no problems with my
55. Handling is fine with nothing 'exciting' or unexpected going on with
spin entry.
Bob
Andreas Maurer
wrote:
>I increased airspeed to about 65-70 knots, then hauled the stick back and
>cross-controlled. It finally did a very entertaining, "vicious" spin. But it
>required a LOT of effort! And after two turns, I let go of the controls, and
>it pretty much recovered on its own.
Sometimes things can get nasty very quickly. I once flew my club's
ASW-20 on which I have several hundred hours very slowly (below 80
kp/h) under a cloud street with flaps positive (setting 4). I caught a
sudden gust and went into a spin despite immediate application of full
opposite rudder. Recovery took half a turn.
Although I have to admit that I didn't react as quickly as I could (I
wanted to know what the 20 would do without immediate reaction) I was
surprised about the violent reaction and couldn't react in time to
avoid the spin entry.
From that time on I never chose setting 4 again when close to the
montain...
Bye
Andreas
Bert Willing
Andreas Maurer wrote:
> Sometimes things can get nasty very quickly. I once flew my club's
> ASW-20 on which I have several hundred hours very slowly (below 80
> kp/h) under a cloud street with flaps positive (setting 4). I caught a
> sudden gust and went into a spin despite immediate application of full
> opposite rudder. Recovery took half a turn.
>
> Although I have to admit that I didn't react as quickly as I could (I
> wanted to know what the 20 would do without immediate reaction) I was
> surprised about the violent reaction and couldn't react in time to
> avoid the spin entry.
>
> From that time on I never chose setting 4 again when close to the
> montain...
>
I've had two experiences like that with a ASW 20 C and was quite surprised;
recovery was fairly quick, though. Somewhere around the mid-eighties there was a
year when 3 pilots died in winch incidents on a 20 C, spinning into the grass.
Although the 20C is a great ship, I would be somewhat reluctant to fly one in
the mountains where the capability to fly with maximum thermal settings close to
the rock is somehow essential.
--
Bert Willing
Caproni Calif D-6600
Visit the airfield of La Motte du Caire in the French Alps:
http://www.decollage.org/la_motte/
bruns...@my-dejanews.com
Nils Hoimyr <Nils....@cern.ch> wrote:
> Other gliders might not spin that easily, but full of water
> and in turbulent conditions ANY glider can give
> you a nasty surprise. So be prepared for it, keep your speed and
> make sure you know how to recover quicly from a spin!
>
Couldn't agree more.
The first time I ever spun a glider involuntarily I managed to do it with the
most docile glider ever made - the Ka8! (OK - so I've just disclosed myself as
the most incompetent pilot ever, so what)
Up to that time I would have sworn that if there was one glider that would
never, never ever, spin unprovoked it was good old K8b "J7".
But one day, coming home from a X-country I found myself below glidepath
close to the field. Not daring to cross a bit of forrest low, I took a very
turbulent thermal at around 400 meters. Trying to centre as quickly as
possible, and probably with far too much attention directed towards my home
field instead of towards what I was doing, I must have pulled too hard. The
glider hit turbulence, everything just stopped, the wing went down and WHAM!
The Ka8 being as docile as it is, recovery was almost a non-event, and soon
after I could land back home. But to this day, I can still remember the
thought that crossed my mind when the wing went down "WHAT - this glider
can't spin!". But it did, and I've chalked this one up as a lesson learned.
Any glider can spin if you goof up badly enough.
Bo Brunsgaard
P.s. Good old "J7" isn't flying anymore. It was flown too slow in a shallow
turn very close to the ground, and, you guessed it, it spun in. No serious
harm to the pilot, thank God.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Andreas Maurer
<bert.w...@epfl.ch> wrote:
>I've had two experiences like that with a ASW 20 C and was quite surprised;
>recovery was fairly quick, though. Somewhere around the mid-eighties there was a
>year when 3 pilots died in winch incidents on a 20 C, spinning into the grass.
... I know several people who are of the opnion that the 20 is a no-no
for a club (due to these accidents). We never had the slightest
problem with it - we treated it as the flagship of the club and let
only experienced pilots (>100 hrs) fly this ship after a thorough
checkout.
>Although the 20C is a great ship, I would be somewhat reluctant to fly one in
>the mountains where the capability to fly with maximum thermal settings close to
>the rock is somehow essential.
I only know the 20L with the old airfoil, but this definitely never
needed the positive flap setting (4). I always used setting 3 for
thermalling, even with up to 60 liters of water (and, imho, climbed
very good compared to other gliders), therefore I never missed the
positive setting. Some people added a setting between 3 and 4 (and
thought it brought some improvement), but I always felt very
comfortable with 3. And it definitely climbed very well...
I only used setting 4 for extremely tight thermals.
Bye
Andreas
Armand A. Medeiros
further back (limited to 26 or 29 Lbs.?) . With two normal pilots with
chutes, it will spin just fine. When I last did it, spin entry was iffy...
that is to say, when the wing dropped, it might spin or might spiral dive.
Either is a breathtaking blast! Recovery is normal in less than a turn from
the spin.
I am not sure all ASK-21 operators are aware of the tail weight option, but
it does help turn the aircraft into a better spin trainer. Of course, me and
my chute are a 200 Lb. combination. Lighter pilots will have better luck!
Armand
Ian Johnston wrote in message <79mqfu$6cu$2...@news.ox.ac.uk>...
>Cyril Williams (willi...@argonet.co.uk) wrote:
>
>: What problems with the ASK-21? I fly one of these, is it anything I
should
>: know?
>
>Pilots who train in ASK-21's may end up believing that spins are unusual
>occurences which have to be worked for, don't last long and don't matter
>much. The continuing death rate from spins in single seaters suggests that
>this is not the case...
>
>In short: I believe that training pilots in unspinnable gliders is
>inherently dangerous.
>
>Ian
Phil Foster
someone flies solo without removing the weight? Dumb question right?
I know of one case where this happened (not a K21, but the principal
applies).
I've spun a 21 with a *very* light P2 and it made me sit up and pay
attention! Get the weight calculation wrong, just a bit too much tail
ballast, and you may not be able to recover. :¬(
Spin training and maintaining spin currency shouldn't be a problem. If
your club doesn't have a K13 or Puchacz - then go to a club that does and
fly there.
In article <79mv91$a...@journal.concentric.net>, zar...@concentric.net
says...
> The ASK-21 can have a big piece of lead placed on the tail to bring the CG
> further back (limited to 26 or 29 Lbs.?) . With two normal pilots with
> chutes, it will spin just fine. When I last did it, spin entry was iffy...
> that is to say, when the wing dropped, it might spin or might spiral dive.
> Either is a breathtaking blast! Recovery is normal in less than a turn from
> the spin.
>
> I am not sure all ASK-21 operators are aware of the tail weight option, but
> it does help turn the aircraft into a better spin trainer. Of course, me and
> my chute are a 200 Lb. combination. Lighter pilots will have better luck!
>
> Armand
>
<SNIP>
--
"There's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got _much_ spam in it."
"I don't want *any* spam..."
Armand A. Medeiros
preflight. There is a hole and two hemispherically shaped weights are bolt
on. Pretty hard to miss unless you do a VERY shitty preflight. Other than
that, everything else you said about W&B applies to evey glider.
Armand
Phil Foster (Phil Foster) wrote in message ...
Ian Johnston
Bob kibby
reply. Suggest you refer to Dean Carswell's evaluation of my SZD-59 in the
20 June 1998 copy of "Soaring" pages 21 and 22. In the 13.2 meter
configuration, Dean describes in paragraph 9 his experimentation with the
low speed handling of the SZD-59 in a yawing turn. The article, which is a
part of Dick Johnson's flight test evaluation series, is also available from
the SSA Web site.
I have owned the sailplane since Dec 1996 and have been very pleased
with its handling and performance.
Bob Kibby
SZD-59 "59A"
Da2071lV wrote in message <19990202191702...@ng-cf1.aol.com>...
David W. Guest
so far back with such a little elevator?
David
Phil Foster
their tail dolly on, with half of their syndicate parners
helping/watching!
Like you say; *very* shitty preflights.
Can't say I like the idea of a hole in the back end. (mouse entrance)
In article <79n4f3$e...@journal.concentric.net>, zar...@concentric.net
says...
+The weight is attached OUTSIDE the aircraft as is easy to see during
+preflight. There is a hole and two hemispherically shaped weights are bolt
+on. Pretty hard to miss unless you do a VERY shitty preflight. Other than
+that, everything else you said about W&B applies to evey glider.
+
+Armand
+
+Phil Foster (Phil Foster) wrote in message ...
+>Can't say that I'm a fan of loading lead into the tail. What happens if
+>someone flies solo without removing the weight? Dumb question right?
+>
+>I know of one case where this happened (not a K21, but the principal
+>applies).
+>
+>I've spun a 21 with a *very* light P2 and it made me sit up and pay
+>attention! Get the weight calculation wrong, just a bit too much tail
+>ballast, and you may not be able to recover. :¬(
+>
+>Spin training and maintaining spin currency shouldn't be a problem. If
+>your club doesn't have a K13 or Puchacz - then go to a club that does and
+>fly there.
+>
+>In article <79mv91$a...@journal.concentric.net>, zar...@concentric.net
+>says...
+>
+>> The ASK-21 can have a big piece of lead placed on the tail to bring the
+CG
+>> further back (limited to 26 or 29 Lbs.?) . With two normal pilots with
+>> chutes, it will spin just fine. When I last did it, spin entry was
+iffy...
<SNIP>
Armand A. Medeiros
diameter or so!
I wouldn't swear to it, but I think just about every ASK-21 has that hole in
the lower rudder area just for these weights (most of them taped up)!
It really makes them handle better to get the CG back a little. AND, even
with all that weight in the back, it is really hard to get the CG beyond the
aft limit with TWO regular people aboard with chutes.
Armand
Ian Johnston
: The ASK-21 can have a big piece of lead placed on the tail to bring the CG
: further back (limited to 26 or 29 Lbs.?)
My point exactly. "I don't need to worry about spins - you have to put ballast
on the tail for it to happen, and go on a special flight to do it. Oh, what's
the ground doing there?"
Ian
Ian Johnston
: Spin training and maintaining spin currency shouldn't be a problem. If
: your club doesn't have a K13 or Puchacz - then go to a club that does and
: fly there.
I still believe that this is a dangerous attitude and one which results in
deaths. As long as we persist in teaching people that spins are a special
exercise for which they may have to go to another club to fly a special
glider we are tempting fate.
Ian
Ian Johnston
: preflight. There is a hole and two hemispherically shaped weights are bolt
: on. Pretty hard to miss unless you do a VERY shitty preflight. Other than
: that, everything else you said about W&B applies to evey glider.
The ASK-21 flight manual I have read did not, as far as I can remember, say
anything about attaching lead weights to the tail. Do the manufacturers
really permit this?
Ian
AA
John Cochrane <John.STOPS...@GSB.UChicago.EDU> wrote in article
<36B8700D...@GSB.UChicago.EDU>...
>
snip
> The eye-opening exercise for me was, as described in one of Tom Knauff's
> books, to try the "slow turn from base to final" scenario. Fly slowly,
but
> not so slowly that you're buffeting; start a shallow turn, think about
being
> distracted by looking up at another glider, or checking out a field, and
> start a skid with in-turn rudder. It will "tuck quickly and away we
went".
> The first time I did this, in a Pegasus, I was shocked to be suddenly
> pointed straight down, with none of the buffeting and mushing familiar
from
> Blanik spin entries.
>
I presume you are writing from the US?
At our club (Canberra Gliding Club, Australia) we have requirement for a 6
monthly check with an instructor and this ALWAYS includes exactly this form
of spin entry and recovery. This is the scenario that will catch you out.
Doing "nose-way-up-in-the-air-bootful-of-rudder" spin entries will
certainly establish the spin and allow you to learn the recovery
techniques, but in real life that's not how you will get into one.
Prevention is better than cure (even if you know the cure).
(BTW, our training fleet is two Puchacz's and a Blanik.)
Allan Armistead
Armand A. Medeiros
Caracole Soaring. It was an operational addendum I believe.
Armand
Ian Johnston wrote in message <79nl9o$h8d$3...@news.ox.ac.uk>...
Armand A. Medeiros
airplane that is certified for spins, he can see for himself up high. My Peg
is not certified for any aerobatics much greater than Chandells and inverted
flight and spins are not allowed. It doesn't spin anyway with me in it; it
just drops the nose straight down and flies out of it at a great lose of
altitude.
Armand
Ian Johnston wrote in message <79nl4e$h8d$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>...
>Armand A. Medeiros (zar...@concentric.net) wrote:
Marc Whisman
>
> The weight is attached OUTSIDE the aircraft as is easy to see during
> preflight. There is a hole and two hemispherically shaped weights are bolt
> on. Pretty hard to miss
So are tail dollies... :)
-Marc
bruns...@my-dejanews.com
engs...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Ian Johnston) wrote:
>
> Pilots who train in ASK-21's may end up believing that spins are unusual
> occurences which have to be worked for, don't last long and don't matter
> much. The continuing death rate from spins in single seaters suggests that
> this is not the case...
>
> In short: I believe that training pilots in unspinnable gliders is
> inherently dangerous.
>
While agreeing with Ian and all that: sometimes I can't help feeling sorry
for Rudolf Kaiser. For years and years people said that spinnable gliders are
dangerous. So, he put all his knowledge into making a great glider that
doesn't spin. Now we're making that into the problem. Poor guy :-)
Bo Brunsgaard
Std. Libelle OY-XKB (now, there's a glider that can spin!)
Phil Foster
yeah we have to bolt lumps of lead to the tail to get it to spin;
<ABINITIO>
I'm really convinced that any glider will spin now.
</ABINITIO>
In article <79nl7q$h8d$2...@news.ox.ac.uk>, engs...@sable.ox.ac.uk says...
+Phil Foster (Phil Foster) (Phil_Foster@the:-)mynd.freeserve.co.uk) wrote:
+
+: Spin training and maintaining spin currency shouldn't be a problem. If
+: your club doesn't have a K13 or Puchacz - then go to a club that does and
+: fly there.
+
+I still believe that this is a dangerous attitude and one which results in
+deaths. As long as we persist in teaching people that spins are a special
+exercise for which they may have to go to another club to fly a special
+glider we are tempting fate.
+
+Ian
+
Phil Foster
K13/Puchacz/someotherspinnableglider somewhere?
You seem to be saying don't add the lead, but don't go somewhere else to
do spin training if my club can't afford a spin trainer.
In article <79nl4e$h8d$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, engs...@sable.ox.ac.uk says...
+Armand A. Medeiros (zar...@concentric.net) wrote:
+: The ASK-21 can have a big piece of lead placed on the tail to bring the CG
+: further back (limited to 26 or 29 Lbs.?)
+
+My point exactly. "I don't need to worry about spins - you have to put ballast
+on the tail for it to happen, and go on a special flight to do it. Oh, what's
+the ground doing there?"
+
+Ian
+
Phil Foster
aft CofG, or high in wave or wings covered in grot and she'll convince
you of that. The spins I've done in a 21 have left me past the vertical
and accelerating PDQ.
I guarantee that any glider'll spin particularly if you make a slow
under-banked over-ruddered turn close to the ground.
In article <79ooq5$imm$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, bruns...@my-dejanews.com
says...
+While agreeing with Ian and all that: sometimes I can't help feeling sorry
+for Rudolf Kaiser. For years and years people said that spinnable gliders are
+dangerous. So, he put all his knowledge into making a great glider that
+doesn't spin. Now we're making that into the problem. Poor guy :-)
Bert Willing
Armand A. Medeiros wrote:
> Hmmm, it's at least a place to start. Once the student flies a single seat
> airplane that is certified for spins, he can see for himself up high. My Peg
> is not certified for any aerobatics much greater than Chandells and inverted
> flight and spins are not allowed. It doesn't spin anyway with me in it; it
> just drops the nose straight down and flies out of it at a great lose of
> altitude.
I'm weighting 70 kg and for me, it's pretty easy to get the Pegase into a spin
which develops nicely.
Ian Johnston
: While agreeing with Ian and all that: sometimes I can't help feeling sorry
: for Rudolf Kaiser. For years and years people said that spinnable gliders are
: dangerous. So, he put all his knowledge into making a great glider that
: doesn't spin. Now we're making that into the problem. Poor guy :-)
I have a copy of "Sailpanes" by Needham-Latimer (from 1930) which has a nice
passage saying - from memory - "sailplanes will spin, but normally very flat
and with a low rate of descent, so it is generally quite safe to let the
spin continue to the ground".
And of course, if all - or most - modern solo gliders were unspinnable,
Kaiser would have got it just right!
Ian
Ian Johnston
: K13/Puchacz/someotherspinnableglider somewhere?
Not at all. But when clubs are buying new trainers they should bear in mind
that there are trainers around which will spin and in which they can, in
my opinion, train pilots considerably more safely than in a K21.
: You seem to be saying don't add the lead, but don't go somewhere else to
: do spin training if my club can't afford a spin trainer.
I agree that if you already have an unspinnable trainer you have a problem.
Ian
Armand A. Medeiros
:)
Actually, at almost 200Lbs. with my chute, the CG is quite far forward. I am
playing with the idea of adding some tail weight after a new W&B is done
after the brake mod.
Armand
Bert Willing wrote in message <36BFF3E8...@epfl.ch>...
John Cochrane
> > The first time I did this, in a Pegasus, I was shocked to be suddenly
> > pointed straight down, with none of the buffeting and mushing familiar from
>
> > Blanik spin entries.
> >
>
> I presume you are writing from the US?
>
> ...Doing "nose-way-up-in-the-air-bootful-of-rudder" spin entries will
> certainly establish the spin and allow you to learn the recovery
> techniques, but in real life that's not how you will get into one.
>
> (BTW, our training fleet is two Puchacz's and a Blanik.)
My point exactly. Furthermore, even the Blanik does not enter a spin from a
skidding turn with nearly the suddenness of a single-seat fiberglass glider. In
the Blanik, there is a definite mush stage, and then the spin clicks in. At
least here in the US; perhaps something about the coriolis force makes spins
work differently in the antipodes?
John Cochrane
Mike Cleaver
John Cochrane wrote in message <36C04FF0...@GSB.UChicago.EDU>...
>AA wrote:
>
>> > Blanik spin entries.
>>
>> I presume you are writing from the US?
>>
>My point exactly. Furthermore, even the Blanik does not enter a spin from a
>skidding turn with nearly the suddenness of a single-seat fiberglass
glider. In
>the Blanik, there is a definite mush stage, and then the spin clicks in. At
>least here in the US; perhaps something about the coriolis force makes
spins
>work differently in the antipodes?
>
>John Cochrane
The Puchacz definitely enters a real spin (and exits it) very much like
modern single-seaters, complete with oscillations in pitch if you hold it in
long enough.
However, particularly this time of year (late summer) it occasionally leaves
the spin at a higher altitude than it entered. Must be the gravitiational
attraction due to cumulus cloud :-)
Has been a very good season in eastern Australia with over 15 1000-km
flights and at least one 1250.
BTW, are you the same John Cochrane that used to fly with the Bristol club
in the UK about 30 years ago? - (we go everywhere, don't we)
Mike Cleaver Canberra, Australia
>