Restructuring of world records
Tony Burton
I understand the next International Gliding Commission meeting is going to
continue reviewing the state of the world record "menu". There is general
agreement that the system needs changing since most world records are now
out of reach of anyone not owning the latest Open class wonder!
The basic thrust is to "democratize" the World records by setting up
parallel record categories based on some aspect of performance - span
limitations being an obvious method. But along with this is a concern that
this will generate such a bewildering list of potential records as to
cheapen the value of any world record gained (along the lines of the
ridiculously narrow record definitions often quoted in baseball or
football). There is then a concurrent need to eliminate all existing
varieties of record type/category that have either lost their usefulness
or are unnecessarily defined. You can imagine that everyone has their own
opinion as to which records may fall into this pot.
In order to give you something to chew on, consider these proposed changes
to the world record categories:
* A parallel set of records with span limits - Open, 18m, 15m, 13m. Or,
almost the same, for the span of any class of World soaring competition
glider. (I especially like the 13m and under idea - this would be a great
incentive to increase soaring achievement at the low wingloading/ slow
speed/ lower cost end of the sport.)
* A reduction in the number of speed record categories. Example: the 100
km speed triangle needs a lot of course planning but only ONE lift source
for any 15m and up ship, therefore how much is soaring skill is being
tested?
* If span limit records come into effect, the range of distances should
be different for each set. Basically, records should mean something - you
HAVE to fly fast to get around a 1000+ km triangle, so perhaps speed is
less important as a record to the distance achieved. And it doesn't make
much sense to continue to have 1250, 1500, 1750, and 2000 km speed
triangle categories for a 13m glider.
* The elimination of the entire feminine category.
* The elimination of the entire motorglider category (if launch method
mattered, why aren't winch launch records available?)
* Retiring the altitude records. These records are becoming increasingly
dangerous and no longer require record soaring skills. It was for this
reason that duration records ceased.
How do you approach the job of eliminating unnecessary record categories?
- The first way to approach it is to ask yourself if a given record type
or category would be implemented today if it did not already exist.
- A second approach is to ask yourself what is actually being measuring.
Is it the pilot's great soaring skill, or is it a record of extraordinary
weather conditions. (On this basis, for example, I don't see why we have
speed records over courses greater than 1000 kilometres.
- A third approach is to ask if the record category is truly competitive,
that is, open to and achievable by many great pilots. As a general
principle, I believe records should honour pilot skill more than great
weather over imposing and remote dessert terrain.
On a related issue, given a wholesale restructuring of record categories,
what do you think would be the best way to handle the transition of
existing records?
Your IGC representative would like to hear from you.
Box 1916, Claresholm, Alberta, Canada, T0L 0T0 (403) 625-4563 p&f
Mike Parker
I must confess confusion on reading this post since some of it seems to run counter
to what I thought I knew about world records.
Tony Burton wrote:
>
> I understand the next International Gliding Commission meeting is going to
> continue reviewing the state of the world record "menu". There is general
> agreement that the system needs changing since most world records are now
> out of reach of anyone not owning the latest Open class wonder!
But there are world records for 15 meter and standard class are there not?
> The basic thrust is to "democratize" the World records by setting up
> parallel record categories based on some aspect of performance
This sounds like the "sports class" records that are available in the USA
to the national level. I like sports class, but be aware that if
pushed to the limit the sports class,like any other class, can become a
development class. If this were to happen, then expenses again
skyrocket. Consider for example the 12 meter sailboat class
in which the America's cup used to be sailed before it became too expensive.
It was started as a less expensive alternative to J-boats as I recall.
Don't like big boats; the olympic class flying dutchman is much more expensive
(and less popular) than the similar 505 class. The moral, whether it is sailboats
or gliders, is that extraordinary effort and money will be put into getting the
last 0.1% of performance if the incentive is high enough.
> * A parallel set of records with span limits - Open, 18m, 15m, 13m. Or,
> almost the same, for the span of any class of World soaring competition
> glider. (I especially like the 13m and under idea - this would be a great
> incentive to increase soaring achievement at the low wingloading/ slow
> speed/ lower cost end of the sport.)
I have no real problem with 13m meter and under.
What about 22, 25, 30, 50, 100 meters?( just kidding :)
> * The elimination of the entire feminine category.
The feminine category is great if it encourages the
sport. If it insults women, then get rid of it. After
all, there is no reason that women can't win at soaring
just as they regularly do in some very competitive sailing
classes.
> * The elimination of the entire motorglider category (if launch method
> mattered, why aren't winch launch records available?)
OK, but then allow motorgliders to compete in the other categories.
The concern (and I have a motorglider on order) is that the motor
allows risks to be taken (low over unlandable terrain for example) that
wouldn't be taken with a normal glider. Yes I do know that you can't depend
on the motor starting, but nevertheless the risks are much lower and might
be taken in the quest for a world record.
> - A second approach is to ask yourself what is actually being measuring.
> Is it the pilot's great soaring skill, or is it a record of extraordinary
> weather conditions.
In addition to the above, it is also planning, logistics, determination,
and other factors. If you want to eliminate extraordinary weather, I
suggest you consider racing competition rather than record attempts.
> Your IGC representative would like to hear from you.
Are these changes being seriously considered? If so, he will (once I figure
out who he is).
The fact is that to set a world record you need to be an excellent pilot, have
a good ship (of whatever category), fly in super weather, and
be prepared for lots of attempts.
However you can have fun attempting local records even if you don't meet
all of the above criteria.
Everyone in Arizona knows that I am far from
the best pilot in the state. But, I do hold several Arizona state
standard class records made in a Cirrus (far from a modern ship).
There are numerous sports class records in Arizona (and most other states) that
could be claimed almost any summer weekend with determination and organization.
Would having a World Sports Class record category promote soaring? I don't know.
But lets not fiddle too much with the established yardsticks when there doesn't seem
to be a clear problem.
Mike Parker
Ventus, IC
EGreenwell
In article <327B5B...@rincon.com>, Mike Parker <par...@rincon.com>
writes:
>> * The elimination of the entire motorglider category (if launch method
>> mattered, why aren't winch launch records available?)
>
>OK, but then allow motorgliders to compete in the other categories.
>
>The concern (and I have a motorglider on order) is that the motor
>allows risks to be taken (low over unlandable terrain for example) that
>wouldn't be taken with a normal glider. Yes I do know that you can't
depend
>on the motor starting, but nevertheless the risks are much lower and
might
>be taken in the quest for a world record.
Mike, I'm not sure if you think motorglider records should be elimanated
because of additional risks that might be taken in the quest for a
*motorglider record*; however, motorgliders can self-launch and fly for
*glider* (i.e., "pure") records only if the motor can not be started in
flight. This elimanates the possiblity of depending on the motor to save
you over unlandable terriotory. The possibility is still there for
motorglider records, of course.
Mike Parker
I was responding to a post which suggested eliminating motorglider
records (among many things).
I think that motorgliders should be allowed to compete in some manner. I don't
personally care whether they are a separate category or folded into FAI classes.
Some people seem to think that a motorglider has an unfair advantage and don't want
to compete against it. I don't necessarily agree, I was just trying to present
their point of view (not very clearly it seems).
I understand that disabling the motor so it cannot be started in flight is
possible in some motorgliders, however it seems counterproductive to have a
motor which doesn't work.
I am looking forward to attempting some records in the motorglider, so I hope
that the rules aren't changed too soon.
Mike Parker
Ventus, IC
Rick Filipkiewicz
Instead of generating a new record zoo of 13, 15, 18, Open, +/- flaps
etc. etc. types why not have a handicapped category ? This might have
the beneficial effect standardising a handicapping system. AFAIK there
are at least 4: U.S. (Herrold), Germany (DaeC ?), U.K. (BGA), France.
If the standarised system could be parametrised by a <country>
standard thermal then the guy from Denmark would stand as much chance
as at the 100km record as someone in Australia.
Lars Peder Hansen
Rick Filipkiewicz wrote:
> If the standarised system could be parametrised by a <country>
> standard thermal then the guy from Denmark would stand as much chance
> as at the 100km record as someone in Australia.
No need! Our thermals may be somewhat weaker, but we are BETTER :-))
--
*********************************************************************
* *
* Lars Peder Hansen *
* Consultant, CAD/CAM & DtP *
* LEGO A/S, DK7190 Billund, Denmark. *
* e-mail: l...@post1.tele.dk or lars....@ims.legoas.lego.dk *
* Opinions are my own, I do not speak for LEGO A/S. *
* *
*************************************** I'd rather be soaring... ***
Bert Willing
Lars Peder Hansen wrote:
>
>
> No need! Our thermals may be somewhat weaker, but we are BETTER :-))
>
If you do X/C in THAT country - you are REALLY good :-)
Cheers
Bert
Tim Newport-Peace
In article <327D91...@rincon.com>, Mike Parker <par...@rincon.com>
writes
>I understand that disabling the motor so it cannot be started in flight is
>possible in some motorgliders, however it seems counterproductive to have a
>motor which doesn't work.
>
>I am looking forward to attempting some records in the motorglider, so I hope
>that the rules aren't changed too soon.
>
>Mike Parker
>Ventus, IC
means of 'controlling' motor use. These are covers in SC3 Rule:
-------------------
2.2.8 Means of Propulsion (MoP) Data for MGs. MoP use data
requirements may be fulfilled by any of the following methods. See also
Chapter 5:
a) If the MoP cannot be restarted in flight, by direct
observation from the ground; OR
b) A seal applied to the MoP in such a way that the
generation of forward thrust by the MoP always results in breaking the
seal; OR
c) A recording device in the glider indicating when the
means of propulsion is not being used. The device must be implemented in
such a way that if it fails, it indicates as if the MoP is being used.
---------------------------------------
There are several Flight Recorders which meet the criteria of (c) and
more are on the way.
As things stand at the moment, as I read it, if you have a suitable
recording device you can use the motor for self-launching, and provided
you do not use it between start and finish thats fine. If you start the
motor between start and finish you have blown it.
It is only mandatory to have the motor disabled for Glider Records, not
Motor Glider Records. If motor glider and glider records are merged, it
remains to be see if this restriction is lifted.
Tim Newport-Peace t...@spsys.demon.co.uk
Bruce Hoult
free...@agt.net (Tony Burton) writes:
> * The elimination of the entire motorglider category (if launch method
> mattered, why aren't winch launch records available?)
I think it may be more a matter that motorglider speeds can be potentially
higher because the pilots may fly lower over unlandable terrain, safe (?)
in the knowledge that they won't have to land.
-- Bruce
--
...in 1996, software marketers wore out a record 31,296 copies of Roget's
Thesaurus searching for synonyms to the word "coffee" ...
Lars Peder Hansen
Bert Willing wrote:
>
> Been to Denmark a couple of times.
> If you do X/C in THAT country - you are REALLY good :-)
>
> Cheers
> Bert
Well, 500 Km is not unusual, someone even set a new record of 756 Km in
July. (One turnpoint was in northern Germany, but the lowlands there are
even worse ;-)
Actually, on good days we have 2-4 m/s thermals, with cloudbase
5000-7000 ft. agl. And the country is flat, lots of landing strips.
So if you get the chance, come to Denmark and fly.
Regards,
Lars Peder
Tony Burton
> I must confess confusion on reading this post since some of it seems to
run counter
> to what I thought I knew about world records.
>
> Tony Burton wrote:
> >
> > I understand the next International Gliding Commission meeting is going to
> > continue reviewing the state of the world record "menu". There is general
> > agreement that the system needs changing since most world records are now
> > out of reach of anyone not owning the latest Open class wonder!
>
> But there are world records for 15 meter and standard class are there not?
No, there are not.
> > The basic thrust is to "democratize" the World records by setting up
> > parallel record categories based on some aspect of performance
> > * The elimination of the entire motorglider category (if launch method
> > mattered, why aren't winch launch records available?)
>
> OK, but then allow motorgliders to compete in the other categories.
Exactly, today, most of them would fall into the 18m
class category.
snip
> > - A second approach is to ask yourself what is actually being measuring.
> > Is it the pilot's great soaring skill, or is it a record of extraordinary
> > weather conditions.
> In addition to the above, it is also planning, logistics, determination,
> and other factors. If you want to eliminate extraordinary weather, I
> suggest you consider racing competition rather than record attempts.
snip
> The fact is that to set a world record you need to be an excellent pilot, have
> a good ship (of whatever category), fly in super weather, and be
prepared for lots of attempts.
Yes, weather and skill ARE inseparable for records. You can't eliminate
super weather. I guess I was making my point poorly regarding the
"usefulness" of long course speed records. It is clear that on say a 500
km or 750 km speed task the pilot has a lot of control of start times,
weather know-how, optimum course, etc. - he has more control on going fast
that day to break a record - the course distance per se is less of a
consideration. On the really long courses though, the speed is more likely
to just fall out of the fact that the task was achieved in the first
place.
My first reaction to seeing a new speed record for a 1250 km triangle is
not, "Boy, was that fast!" but "boy, was that far!" Do you see what I'm
driving at? That is why I think long DISTANCE records say a lot more about
pilot effort than long course SPEED records.
I also think that long course speed records are not a good category
because there is far too little competitive effort possible. Potentially,
there are a great many good pilots who would/could find the course and the
day for a 500 km speed triangle, so this record category is more
praiseworthy in my mind than the odd 1750 km speed attempt which is purely
in the realm of the esoteric!
> But lets not fiddle too much with the established yardsticks when there
doesn't seem
> to be a clear problem.
The clear problem IS that most current world records are
now out of reach of all but Open class ships. That's what got the idea
kicking around at the IGC in the first place.
This discussion is interesting (I am just starting to see the responses
coming in after 3 days because my internet server was backed up on
delivering newsgroup messages). The main point of my opening this thread
was to "kick the ant's nest" and get pilots thinking about getting back to
basics on what records are for, to make them achievable for a wider range
of pilots/ships, and to have your IGC rep get some feedback on local
opinion. Nitpicking MY discussion points is largely irrelevant to the need
to find out what changes OTHER PILOTS think might have general merit
towards the time when the IGC votes on the matter.
Mike Parker
> >
> > But there are world records for 15 meter and standard class are there not?
>
> No, there are not.
You are right. I stand corrected. I was thinking about USA National records.
I now see your point about having some form of handicapping, maybe by span
limits, and I agree.
I still dont't agree with your argument that long course speed records are not
of value. But if you wanted to cap the distance at, say 1,000 km. I would not get
too excited.
Mike Parker
Ventus, IC
Denis Flament
> Mike Parker <par...@rincon.com>
> writes:
>
> >> * The elimination of the entire motorglider category (if launch method
> >> mattered, why aren't winch launch records available?)
> >
> >OK, but then allow motorgliders to compete in the other categories.
> >
> >allows risks to be taken (low over unlandable terrain for example) that
> >wouldn't be taken with a normal glider.
This is a wrong problem
You probably all know motorglider pilots who never rely on motor and fly
within reach of landable areas, and glider pilots who will fly over
unlandable terrain or take other risks (redline speed flying in
turbulence, night landings...) to achieve a record. The right rule would
be to prevent taking risks, but obviously it is impossible.
In competition, it could be an unfair advantage to have an engine ready
to restart, IMHO for records it is not.
You should mention another point, which is more important : for distance
record flight duration is as important as speed ; motorgliders can take
off half an hour before scheduled thermal triggering, and wait at start
point until they find lift, whereas a glider will take off when he just
saw evidence of lift, wasting 15 or 30' off available thermal time, or
launch earlier, and have 3 chances out of 4 to reland, drop water, and
waste the booming day !
The point is, if the glider and motorglider have the same performance,
they should be allowed in one single category.
I think it is the case, provided you set the same weight limits (for
example 750 kg for open class for records, even if some motorgliders are
certified up to 850 kg)
--
Denis Flament ( )
( )
( ) ( )
( ) ~~~~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~
( ) ___
~~ ~ ~~ ~ ~~ ~~ \_____________!_____________/
fla...@supaero.fr (_)
ASW 20 BL "2D"
World pilots ranking :
http://www.anet.fr/~depechy/result/internat/res_int.html
Nogaro soaring club : http://www.anet.fr/~depechy/result/nogaro.html
Dennis Galotti
"Restructuring of world records", posted in the rec.aviation.soaring
newsgroup on the internet by Tony Burton of Canada, deserves serious
consideration. I would like to express my opinions on the issues he
mentions. (Tony's words are in quotation marks and my thoughts follow
between plus signs.)
"I understand the next International Gliding Commission meeting is going
to continue reviewing the state of the world record "menu". There is
general agreement that the system needs changing since most world records
are now out of reach of anyone not owning the latest Open class wonder!"
+ Since the best Open Class ships have performance nearly 50% higher
than any other glider, it is clear that changes are indicated so as not
to exclude the great majority of pilots/ships flying today. +
"The basic thrust is to "democratize" the World records by setting up
parallel record categories based on some aspect of performance - span
limitations being an obvious method."
+ This seems obvious and sensible. +
!In order to give you something to chew on, consider these proposed
changes to the world record categories:!
!* A parallel set of records with span limits - Open, 18m, 15m, 13m. Or,
almost the same, for the span of any class of World soaring competition
glider. (I especially like the 13m and under idea - this would be a
great incentive to increase soaring achievement at the low wingloading/
slow speed/ lower cost end of the sport.)!
+ The four categories, Open, 18m, 15m, 13m and under, seem very
representative and would carry us well into the future. +
!* A reduction in the number of speed record categories. Example: the
100 km speed triangle needs a lot of course planning but only ONE lift
source for any 15m and up ship, therefore how much is soaring skill is
being tested?!
!* If span limit records come into effect, the range of distances should
be different for each set. Basically, records should mean something - you
HAVE to fly fast to get around a 1000 + km triangle, so perhaps speed is
less important as a record to the distance achieved. And it doesn't make
much sense to continue to have 1250, 1500,1750,and 2000 km speed triangle
categories for a 13m glider.!
+ I am not sure I agree with these in general. I can imagine, for
example, someone designing a short span/high-wing-loading/high-Vne ship
for certain conditions to establish speed records. We also need to have
these categories carry us well into the future and I can foresee that
speed records in the longer distances will be regularly contested. +
!* The elimination of the entire feminine category.!
+ I also feel that the time has come to eliminate this antiquated
thinking. In my opinion, any arguments to keep these categories is
anti-women regardless of any other perceived benefits. There is no
excuse for this in a sport like soaring. +
!* The elimination of the entire motorglider category (if launch method
mattered, why aren't winch launch records available?)!
+ As a motorglider owner, I strongly support this suggestion. With the
advent of aero-retrieves in contests, there is absolutely no advantage
for motorgliders either in world records or in racing. In fact, there
are disadvantages at times of very weak weather when the lowest possible
wing loading is preferred. Starting the engine in the air is no
different than landing and getting and aero-retrieve. In addition, at a
time of diminishing participation in gliding and racing in particular, we
do not need unreasonable elimination of possible contestants. We do need
to encourage the highest level of participation. We must also consider
reports that from 50 to 70% of new gliders are coming out of the
factories with motors. This should clearly signal something about the
future. Some will argue that MG pilots will take chances over unlandable
areas that others would not. People who believe this have probably not
flown a MG.
Imagine that you are in a non-MG and that I guarantee you that 98% of the
time a particular hill top in an unlandable area has a thermal working
that will be there when you arrive. But the thing you have to do is to
pull the dive brakes full open when you are about one half a kilometer
from the hill top when you will be very low. And further, that if you do
this you MAY get a world record out of it but if it doesn't work you will
be in the trees. Would you do it? Even if one would do this, I believe
that Darwin's theories of natural selection will solve this problem
without the need for segregating MGs. +
!* Retiring the altitude records. These records are becoming
increasingly dangerous and no longer require record soaring skills. It
was for this reason that duration records ceased.!
+ I am not sure I agree with this one. Although this record now becomes
as much a matter of funding as skill, there are many other aviation
records that have similar requirements and it has pretty high public
relations value as well. +
!How do you approach the job of eliminating unnecessary record
categories?!
!- The first way to approach it is to ask yourself if a given record
type or category would be implemented today if it did not already exist.!
!- A second approach is to ask yourself what is actually being
measuring. Is it the pilot's great soaring skill, or is it a record of
extraordinary weather conditions. (On this basis, for example, I don't
see why we have speed records over courses greater than 1000 kilometers.!
+ I don!t agree here. This seems too short sighted. Understanding and
following weather is a fundamental part of any attempt to set a world
record. +
!- A third approach is to ask if the record category is truly
competitive, that is, open to and achievable by many great pilots. As a
general principle, I believe records should honour pilot skill more than
great weather over imposing and remote dessert terrain.!
+ I don!t agree here either. Some world records will take extraordinary
efforts and will be recognized as such. +
!On a related issue, given a wholesale restructuring of record
categories, what do you think would be the best way to handle the
transition of existing records?!
+ The implications of this are not clear to me. With that disclaimer,
it would only seem fair, at least, to review the existing records and
transfer those that are applicable to the new categories. All other new
ones would be up for grabs. Those that have no applicable new record
would stay on the books as they are at the time of the change. Clearly
this will take serious thought by those with much more knowledge than I
have in this area.
+ Well, just some additional food for thought. +
Dennis Galotti (YA), USA
ma...@aracnet.com
John Cochrane
> There is
>general agreement that the system needs changing since most world records
>are now out of reach of anyone not owning the latest Open class wonder!"
>"The basic thrust is to "democratize" the World records by setting up
>parallel record categories based on some aspect of performance - span
>limitations being an obvious method."
>
Is there such "general agreement?"
As I look through the record books, it looks like special weather rather than glider
performance is the key to world records. In the US, is there anywhere but the Owens
valley or the blue ridge where one can hope to set a record? I don't care if
you have a Nimbus 5, you aren't going to set a world speed record in northern
Illinois! And being in a "mere" Discus didn't stop Jim Payne from flying 100k
within about 10 kts of VNE. That's not a complaint, it's just a fact.
Most records are in fact held by 15 m gliders. The open glider performance advantage
drops away at the high speed. They may even be at a disadvantage due to the 750Kg
limit at the ballistic speeds of some current records.
The long distance speed records may be in fact the most "democratic," since there
are more places in the world one can attempt them.
John Cochrane
(who would be extatic to someday make it around a course in 1/2 of world record
speeds!)
shab...@aol.com
In article <55uood$v...@cobweb.aracnet.com>, Dennis Galotti
<ma...@aracnet.com> writes:
> Basically, records should mean something - you
>HAVE to fly fast to get around a 1000 + km triangle, so perhaps speed is
>less important as a record to the distance achieved.
However, if you take away the speed records over 1,000 + courses you also
eliminate the need to "push back the barriers". Distances of 1,000 -
2,000 + plus have already been flown, but what if you could break the 7
hour 1,000 km flight. Having speed records over these distances
encourages pilots to fly for records.
Craig Shaber
Ian Forbes
On 2 Nov 1996 01:51:57 GMT, Tony Burton wrote:
>In order to give you something to chew on, consider these proposed changes
>to the world record categories:
.. snip ..
>* The elimination of the entire motorglider category (if launch method
>mattered, why aren't winch launch records available?)
This is one suggestion that I would reject outright.
There is a vast difference in the approach for attempting a motor
glider record (ie one where the attempt can be abandoned and the motor
started, in flight) and a glider record where the pilot does not have
a motor, or if he does have one it has been disabled such that he
can't start it without landing.
I have flown a 1000km (in a sailplane) and witnessed many motor glider
and glider world record attempts - some of them successful. In South
Africa our weather is a little different to that in Denmark :8).
Firstly the motor glider pilot does not have the logistic restrictions
that a glider pilot does. He can launch 15 or 20 minutes before the
first thermals are due, climb to 1000m and wait (while surveying the
most likely sources of lift). If he does not find lift by the time he
reaches circuit hight, he starts his motor and climbs back up again.
He can do this from any exotic airfield he choses to operate from and
can readily perform a remote start - without having to organise a tug
and tug pilot.
The glider pilot on the other hand has to choose his launch window
carefully as he will be carrying a full load of water balast. If the
early thermals are not strong enough to stay up, he will have to dump
the water or land and take another tow with a resultant delay. Either
of these actions will effectively end a serious record attempt.
The next major difference comes when approaching the last turn point
on a long distance task. The glider pilot's options are to go for the
last turn point and risk landing out (effectively eliminating another
attempt on the following day) or to abandon the task, turn short and
try again the next day.
The motor glider pilot will nearly always go for the turn point. He
will then either successfully complete his task and land (shortly
before sunset) or use the motor and try again the next day (and most
probably land after sunset, as the cross country speed required to
complete a world record task is likely to be faster than that which
can be achieved using the motor). While the IGC no longer accepts
world records where the glider lands after sunset - there is nothing
to say what happens on unsuccessful flights. Motor gliders can (and
do) stay up much longer after sunset than pure gliders.
Finally the obvious one. When a glider pilot gets low his natural
instinct is to slow down. A motor glider pilot has the confidence
gained from having a motor available. Thus he will tend to fly
faster, lower and generally more aggresively than the pure glider
pilot.
I don't wan't to knock motor gliders. They have opened a whole new
dimension to our sport - particularly where it comes to record flying.
However to put them in the same catagory as a pure glider is simply
unfair!
>How do you approach the job of eliminating unnecessary record categories?
If you wan't to rationalise records, the first ones that I would look
at discontinuing are two seater motor glider records. (Having a pilot
or pilot plus passenger in a Nimbus 4 DM makes very little
difference). Feminine motor glider, feminine two seater glider and
feminine two seater motor glider catagories are probably too
undersubscribed to warent world record status.
>On a related issue, given a wholesale restructuring of record categories,
>what do you think would be the best way to handle the transition of
>existing records?
One thing for definite. If a new catagory is introduced (like the out
and return free distance), then it should have a grace period of one
or two seasons. All record claims for the new catagory submitted
during the grace period should be held pending. At the end of the
period a single record diploma should be awarded to the best
achievement from those flights submitted. I believe there were *many*
out and return free distance record claims - and I suspect that many
of the pilots are entitled to a record diploma - which just undermines
the status of "real" world record performances.
>Your IGC representative would like to hear from you.
I hope someone from the IGC is monitoring this thread !
Ian Forbes
Nimbus II
Johannesburg, South Africa
Mike Parker
Ian Forbes wrote:
> One thing for definite. If a new catagory is introduced (like the out
> and return free distance), then it should have a grace period of one
> or two seasons. All record claims for the new catagory submitted
> during the grace period should be held pending. At the end of the
> period a single record diploma should be awarded to the best
> achievement from those flights submitted. I believe there were *many*
> out and return free distance record claims - and I suspect that many
> of the pilots are entitled to a record diploma - which just undermines
> the status of "real" world record performances.
On the other hand.....
When the out and return free distance was established, even a "mere" 15 meter ship had
a window of opportunity. The only serious world record attempt in Arizona
in my memory was organized. A couple of us had fun trying,
and a lot of people supported us.
I believe that Tom Knauff did the same thing back east with even more participation.
In that respect, it promoted soaring.
And if the weather had cooperated, we would have proudly hung the certificate
(or whatever they give you) on our walls knowing that for a few short months we
had beat the world.
Mike Parker
Ventus, IC
Dennis Galotti
Re: Restructuring of world records
From: Ian Forbes, ian.f...@onwe.co.za
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 22:51:52 GMT
In article <563fqq$7...@news.ibi.co.za> Ian Forbes, ian.f...@onwe.co.za
writes:
.. snip ..
>
>>* The elimination of the entire motorglider category (if launch method
>>mattered, why aren't winch launch records available?)
>
>This is one suggestion that I would reject outright.
>
>There is a vast difference
.. snip ..
This section on eliminating motorgliders sounds like a bit of sour grapes
(and, of course this is in my completely unbiased opinion). Yet
seriously, there is very little I can see in these arguments that could
not be dublicated using a tow plane. One could launch early "15 or 20
minutes before the first thermals are due" and hang around until a good
thermal is found, one could even arrange to have a tug on hand for the
retrieve even if it had to head out in mid-flight to be there in time,
etc., etc,, etc.
It seems to me that what is really at stake here is not whether these
things can be done but the cost of doing them. If one would take the
$20k or $25k one saved by not buying a motorglider and applied it to the
logistics, one could virtually achieve the same result by buy a lot of
tug time.
By the way, I don't believe I saw any mention of the disadvantages that
MGs might have - like the motor won't start and there is not tug in
sight, like near the end of the flight when conditions get very weak and
the MG pilot starts taking out the tools to remove the engine and throw
it overboard (not that we would do that in congested areas and break
FARs), and there are certainly others), like the typically lower max wing
loading...
And finally, the last point about flying lower and faster etc. is more
about attitude and not really about equipment. Some pilots will take
unnecessary risks whether there is a motor or not. Should the FAI be
reviewing the flight data recorders and disallow attempts where someone
takes these risks that are in someone else's arbitary opinion unwarranted?