What magic do the JS3 and Ventus 3 have that the ASG-29 Does not?

[Bojack J4]

After the definitive spanking these two new models gave to the previously dominant ASG-29,
there has to be a superiority. So, what is it?

(And yes, the pilot matters...but look at the results in 18m Worlds competition)

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Nut behind the stick?
Weather that prefers one speed range over another?

Toss a coin.

[K m]

Lets face it ASG29's are as obsolete as Wind Jammers. I expect to see these at Vintage Regatta's soon.

[Bojack J4]

Lotsa good nuts behind all the sticks there....
...Still, ASG-29 didn't even show.

Hmmm....ASG-29 windjammer cruises?

[victori...@gmail.com]

Those guys did so well with the V3s and JS-3s because Kawa wasn’t in that class......flying anything.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I can hear the rapid hand rubbing of many sale guys saying, "we did well, sales will spike!".

Likely 95% is the nut begind the stick. But a sales guy is banking on, "so and so did well as others, this is the poop, go buy one, we'll make a deal.....".
It is still mostly the nut behind the stick.

For Kawa and others, no, I do not consider you nuts.....it's a euphemism.

Heck, in the western US, maybe fly with Ramy and beat him many days, then decide.
US east coast, go beat Karl or SM on ridges....along with others.

No, not slighting anyone, but go beat good in your region all the time, THEN compare ships.
I have beaten some good in the east a day or two, never a contest.

If you're in the 95% or so of your nation for national tanking, yep, maybe the ship matters.

Better yet, go fly a club class nationals and tromp, then ask about ships for other classes.

Harsh?
Likely.
Realistic?
Likely.

[agca...@gmail.com]

Yep n go fly the 1-26 nationals, that will tell you if its the ship or the "nut" behind the stick.

[Bob Kuykendall]

Minor tweaks to the incidence distribution.

[Bojack J4]

Wow, thanks Bob. Finally a real answer.
Was beginning to feel like I was on "The View" or something.

Surprising that what must be be a slight improvement in glide, or climb or whatever would translate to such a dominance at the top level.

Now I'll go fly my beater until I am worthy.

[Bruce Hoult]

I feel really sorry for all the people out there stuck with obsolete ASG29s. I'd love to help all of you somehow, but I'm afraid I can help only one .. so .. the first ASG29 owner to contact me from this post .. I'll take it off your hands for $10k.

[Bojack J4]

Well, for that price...no engine and prolly needing wing waviness sanded smooth. But reasonable for a good sports class plane.

[Kevin Neave]

20 years of evolution

[jpg...@gmail.com]

The (wise) play on words only works if you say "the nut that *holds* the stick".

[krasw]

Spanking came from the fact that every top pilot chose to fly V3 or JS3.

It is kind of reassuring to see that in this age of "higher-wingloading-is-better" competitions are still won by glider that are designed to climb well.

[christoph...@googlemail.com]

From the WGC competition results, I would rather draw the conclusion that the good pilots chose to fly JS3 or Ventus 3 rather than the ASG29. I would not conclude that one model has a clear advantage over the other. In previous competitions, pilots of Ventus 3 and ASG29 achieved comparable results. JS3 pilots did not always do so well in this years competition season over here in Germany.

You need to measure the performance of the gliders in similar conditions in order to compare them.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 2:35:07 PM UTC-7, K m wrote:

Just to point out an ASG-29-15 won the 15 meter WGC with a Dianna 2 coming in second place.

[victori...@gmail.com]

No, Kawa won the 15M championship. He just happened to have been in a 29. He would won in the Diana also, as he has many times before.

[clint....@gmail.com]

The JS3 in 18m configuration smashed the 1250km FAI triangle record earlier this year. Many days in the latest round of the World's had the 18m (V3 and JS3) achieving speeds higher than the Open Class (EB29 and JS1C-21m) over similar task distances.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 8:16:58 AM UTC-7, victori...@gmail.com wrote:
> No, Kawa won the 15M championship. He just happened to have been in a 29. He would won in the Diana also, as he has many times before.

You have missed the point entirely. Kawa would not have won in a "obsolete windjammer" and Kawa was NOT flying the Dianna 2 which DID beat all the other gliders, except for Kawa's ASG-29.

[Eric Greenwell]

christoph...@googlemail.com wrote on 8/13/2018 5:53 AM:
> From the WGC competition results, I would rather draw the conclusion that the good pilots chose to fly JS3 or Ventus 3 rather than the ASG29.

I suspect many top pilots make the assumption that the newest gliders are at least
as good as the earlier gliders; they note that a few excellent pilots are choosing
the newest gliders; so, by also choosing the newest glider for themselves, they
eliminate the chance that the other pilots will have an advantage. If true, then
their choosing the newer gliders does not mean they determined the new ones have
significantly better performance.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Andrzej Kobus]

In addition they want to own a newer glider for resale value.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Can we get this on the Jerry Springer Show

[Bojack J4]

Come on, guys! Help me out here.
I'm trying to negotiate a fire-sale price for '29's.

3 year wait for a V3, btw.

[Bob Youngblood]

Yep Bojack, think of all the problems with the 29, Flutter, wings falling off, complete melting of the fuselage in the hot sun. The list goes on and on, maybe we could get two for the price of one.

[Ramy]

As Eric said.
Also the very long wait on these new gliders suggests that with few exceptions, most folks ordered them before they won any big contest based on the hope and expectation that they will be better or at least as good.
My 29 is not for sale anytime soon :)

Ramy

[Andy Blackburn]

They are both excellent gliders and an improvement in the state of the art, but, to be fair, the median FAI ranking for the JS3 pilots was 56, for the Ventus 3 pilots was 64 and for the ASG-29 pilots was 688. Both Jonker and Schempp-Hirth did a nice job getting new gliders into the hands of top-ranked pilots. Great pilots flying great gliders are hard to beat. Mostly, great pilots are hard to beat.

Andy Blackburn
9B

[Paul T]

Of course the AS33 will have even more magic.... and would the V3 be as
magical if it could fit as larger a pilot as the JS3? Wonder how much
difference that tincy fuselage makes?

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

Things that have no size have no drag. Every little bit helps, if you can fit in.
UH

[jpg...@gmail.com]

Damian Goldenzweig from Argentina world ranked 2277 did very well to finish 28th in the larger fuselage prototype self-launching Ventus-3M. Analysing his flights on See You compared to little fuselage V3s he flew with doesn't show any significant performance difference. On Task 11, for example, he started with and mostly flew with highly ranked Mario Kiessling and/or Peter Millenaar and beat them both. The final glide performances at around 105 knots look identical - even allowing for me looking through a wishful thinking filter.

[Charlie Quebec]

Unless you want to fly on the money bleeding edge in comps, last generation gliders become bargains, with 99% of the performance.
As an example, when I last visited my glider repairer, he had a JS1 he was fitting new winglets to.
The performance gain was .25 of an L/D point at 100kt, at a cost of $7000 aust. Must be the most expensive LD per dollar ever.
Given that manufacturers give gliders to comp pilots for WC as a marketing tool, as shown by Schemp lending Adam Woolley a V3 for the recent Hosin comp.
29s and 27s V2s will be good value buying the near future.
Or you could give up gliding, buy a Stemme and fly a light plane. (:

[2G]

As usual, you're just blowing smoke, dreaming up numbers off the top of what is left of your head.

Tom

[krasw]

On Wednesday, 15 August 2018 07:07:58 UTC+3, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Given that manufacturers give gliders to comp pilots for WC as a marketing tool, as shown by Schemp lending Adam Woolley a V3 for the recent Hosin comp.

Not true.

[Eric Greenwell]

Charlie Quebec wrote on 8/14/2018 9:07 PM:
> The performance gain was .25 of an L/D point at 100kt, at a cost of $7000 aust. Must be the most expensive LD per dollar ever.

Irrelevant - no one adds winglets to gain L/D at 100 knots; generally, it's to
improve the low speed handling, thermalling, and low speed L/D.

[Emir Sherbi]

I was his crew on the WGC. There was difference in performance on most of the task, but that is because the championship had incredible flight conditions. The cruise speed on most of the time where around 220 km/h, of course that at that speed a more wide fuselage (and in consequence 6-8cm less wing) will have significant drag and loose more altitude than a V3T. On the days that where more normal (or poor) conditions, there was less difference. The 3M climbs as good as the others at the same wing loading.

[Charlie Quebec]

Did it ever occur to you that different winglets might have less drag at 100kt?
Perhaps try thinking before stating the bleeding obvious.
Let’s make it simple for you, old winglets work equally well at low speed, more drag at high speed.

[Duster]

Anyone try using this tool? Dataset from the 2018 WGC might assist in comparing performance of pilot, glider model, etc. info on V3 v JS1 v JS3 v ASG29


http://www.igcspy.com/compday.php?EventID=32&DayID=167

[Duster]

> Perhaps try thinking before stating the bleeding obvious.
> Let’s make it simple for you, old winglets work equally well at low speed, >more drag at high speed.

I'm no expert on winglets, but it's my understanding that not all old winglets work equally well at low reynolds numbers. I've heard some factory winglets were quite ineffective so the owners went to 3rd parties. Someone help me out here; I believe I read that some winglets significantly improved the safety of certain models (Ventus? ASW20?) from low speed wing drops. Not a physicist, yet I highly doubt you can accurately measure a 0.25 L/D improvement at high speeds. What method did he use to test? That seems to be well within the noise. (BTW you got docked points for rudeness. It doesn't encourage free exchange of ideas. I'm sure you meant well.)

[Bojack J4]

Quarter million dollars.....yikes!!!

[JS]

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 7:48:30 PM UTC-7, Bojack J4 wrote:
> Quarter million dollars.....yikes!!!

After posting in the GLIDING INTERNATIONAL thread, I realised that there is a great way to get a fire sale ASG29:
Like Rick Indrebo, buy a wreck and spend a few years working on it.
Jim

[Charlie Quebec]

These are a new winglet type from the manufacturer, they are the ones who claim the improvement, small though it is.

[andrzop]

W dniu piątek, 17 sierpnia 2018 11:14:37 UTC+2 użytkownik Charlie Quebec napisał:
> These are a new winglet type from the manufacturer, they are the ones who claim the improvement, small though it is.

JS3 and Ventus 3 aren't just a new winglets

[Brett]

Bojack J4;974727 Wrote:
> Quarter million dollars.....yikes!!!

Both the JS3 and the Ventus 3 are much less expensive. You are
misinformed - some posters should get their facts straight before they
hit send.

Brett




--
Brett

[Dan Marotta]

Well, $190K really is much less expensive than $250K, but it's still a
lot of money.

Dan, 5J

[jfitch]

The base glider, perhaps. But the glider, options, trailer, instrumentation, transportation, import duty, and tax? Quarter million is a good estimate.

[Dan Marotta]

Can't you pay the quoted price when you place the order and have it
contractually fixed?

On 8/17/2018 9:02 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 5:43:09 AM UTC-7, Brett wrote:

> No, I am not. Okay, perhaps I am on the high side by $20,000. If you have never ordered a new glider, budget twenty percent more than you price it out. In September of 2015 a new well equipped ASG-29Es delivered to Houston was $194K. A worse exchange rate, a yearly increase in price, shipping costs will be higher, new model base price increase...several years wait with more yearly price increase. EVERYTHING is an option that costs. If you are ordering a new 15/18 German or South African glider with a turbo for delivery in three years, it could get really uncomfortable if you do not have the better part of a quarter million dollars budgeted. I have ordered several new gliders and have always been unpleasantly surprised at how much more they cost than I had priced and how much longer they took to arrive than promised.

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I remember offering to go in 1/2 on an ASW-24 (new, when they were new as I was just starting flying competitions). The DM took off, plus addons, the end price was double by the time it was billed.
Way out of my budget.
The other buyer found someone to go half on it.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

If you look, I believe there is fine print about exchange rates.

The next post down from yours, yes, some peeps buy "local currency" when low and hang onto it. Then they are sorta immune to exchange rate fluctuations.

I know of a few eastern US peeps that used to play the exchange rate market. Buy when a local (overseas) currency was low (usually DM's) and then sit and wait.
Many years ago, there was a HUGE slew in rates. If you had local, great. If you converted then, welp, SOL.......

Timing can be everything.......

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

I was never much good at forecasting financial markets. So several months before delivery of my ASW 24 in late 1991, I began worrying that the exchange rate (D-mark) would move against me. So I bought a DM call option. I forget the amount but the contract almost covered what I owed Schleicher. It was slightly out of the money with a short-term expiration date so it seemed like cheap insurance. If the exchange rate remained the same or the DM weakened, I would lose only the small amount invested. But when the day arrived, the DM had appreciated a bit and my option was now slightly in the money. So I had a modest gain to offset the higher amount of US$ I would have to pay for my DMs. I was about to close out my position when I discovered that the type of option I had bought (European style?) allowed me to exercise through my brokerage account and actually take delivery of the underlying currency in any bank account I wished, in this case Schleicher's bank. Wow! I avoided various wire transfer fees plus currency conversion costs and got the "big bank" exchange rate. OK, the savings weren't huge: IIRC, on the order of $500 in total. But I was pretty pleased with myself. That was my last new glider.

Chip Bearden

[Eric Greenwell]

For first new glider I bought (ASW20C), I researched currency markets, trying to
figure out what to do. The dealer, John Murray, told me "If I was any good at
understanding currency markets, I'd be buying gliders instead of selling them". By
the time I figured out the perfect strategy, the Mark had fallen to long-time low,
and I got the glider cheap when I converted my dollars to Marks.

When I bought my second new glider (ASH26E), I used the same approach, but the
Mark kept going up and up and ... So, lost ground on that one, but it's been a
terrific glider for 25 seasons, and my wife loves it ("it always gets home").

[Brett]

No, I am not. Okay, perhaps I am on the high side by $20,000. If you
have never ordered a new glider, budget twenty percent more than you
price it out. In September of 2015 a new well equipped ASG-29Es
delivered to Houston was $194K. A worse exchange rate, a yearly
increase in price, shipping costs will be higher, new model base price
increase...several years wait with more yearly price increase.
EVERYTHING is an option that costs. If you are ordering a new 15/18
German or South African glider with a turbo for delivery in three years,
it could get really uncomfortable if you do not have the better part of
a quarter million dollars budgeted. I have ordered several new gliders
and have always been unpleasantly surprised at how much more they cost
than I had priced and how much longer they took to arrive than promised.

Well with respect Jonathon I have a pretty good idea of the costs, being
that I have owned two new JS1's, and currently own a JS3.
Oh, and I am also a Jonkers agent with current price lists.

Regards, Brett




--
Brett

[Charlie Quebec]

Irrelevant, the winglets changed were on a JS1C, as I said in the post.
The reading comprehension of the US posters is astonishingly poor.
$250k in Aust dollars is the current price for a used js1c available in Australia, so a new one would be more.

[agca...@gmail.com]

Man "Charlie Quibec " it seems you have nothing better to do than post negative crap on every topic on RAS, be it TFR's or v3vs js1. I think its about time you got off here and get a life or get laid or take a chill pill. Do something, anything, to get a better attitude. We surely dont need any more of your sniffle and dribble.

[2G]

On Saturday, August 18, 2018 at 1:09:04 PM UTC-7, agca...@gmail.com wrote:
> Man "Charlie Quibec " it seems you have nothing better to do than post negative crap on every topic on RAS, be it TFR's or v3vs js1. I think its about time you got off here and get a life or get laid or take a chill pill. Do something, anything, to get a better attitude. We surely dont need any more of your sniffle and dribble.

AMEN to that! I was just thinking Charlie Questionable ought to get off his computer and go kick the dog.

Tom

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

Maybe you could correct the record by advising what the current price is.
UH

[JS]

I wonder if either JS3 or Ventus 3 has proper landing flaps, or just flaperons like earlier Ventus and JS1?
There is magic in the ASG29's landing flaps.
Jim

[tom.k...@gmail.com]

JS, for real landing flaps you will need to wait for the AS33. ;)
Tom

[K m]

On W> > Brett
> Brett, nice to make your acquaintance. You represent a very fine product. Glad to hear that the gliders made in South Africa are less expensive than the German made gliders, as they should be since the labor rates are less than half of that paid in Germany! However, when I priced your fine products the price was comparable to the German products. Sounds like you are offering to clear this up. How much would you advise a client to budget for a JS 3 ordered today equipped with: retractable tail wheel; sustainer jet; leather interior; LX9070 w/V80;LX S3; Air-Avionics Butterfly, Trig radio; Trig transponder ADS-B out; PowerFlarm; winter airspeed; winter altimeter; Cobra trailer with SL; tow out gear; tail dolly; covers; one man rig; shipped to Houston?

Jonathan,

I am not sure if you are asking rhetorically but at the convention I spoke with the JS representatives extensively (And with the SH People) and I was quoted 203K for a JS-3 with ALL the options shipped.
A word of caution to those who wish to trade currency; Many major brokerage firms will require a certain minimum on account before they will let you do this. Mine had a 600K minimum and it allowed access to 16 currencies. Trading currencies is involved and time consuming.

Kirk

[JS]

I know it isn't as simple to set up International money exchange as it used to be, but I've found XE Trade to be very useful, easy and good rates.
https://www.xe.com/xemoneytransfer/us/
Jim

[RR]

> I know it isn't as simple to set up International money exchange as it used to be, but I've found XE Trade to be very useful, easy and good rates.
> https://www.xe.com/xemoneytransfer/us/
> Jim

Transferwise.com borderless account. easy peasy...

RR

[jpg...@gmail.com]

Transferwise isn't a direct transfer. It is very convenient but not reliable enough to trust with large payments. I have twice had delays with payments that required investigation. Because it is so easy I still use it for amounts I could afford to lose but wouldn't dream of using it to pay for a glider.

[RR]

Use it for busness on a regular basis. Admititly never in excess of 50k, but I have had much larger balances in a euro account. Not a guarantee, but has never been an issue for me.

RR

[Charlie Quebec]

LOL. Let me guess, 2G Toms from Queensland and here to help. We all know how well that works out.