Phoebus c ground launching
Jeff Byrnes
glider club. Our club is mainly a winch launch club. It appears that
this type of ship is not a good ground launch ship. Is their anyone
out there that winch launch the Pheobus?, and if so have you encounter
any problems? Thanks
Nolaminar
It is a nice sailplane except for auto/winch towing.
RE Gaines
John H. Campbell
launch. See Johnson's write-up on auto-towing scares with the Nimbus 2 30
years ago: Small all-flying elevator + CG hook + low attach point (deep
fuselage) + high CG (shoulder wing) make the Phoebus even more susceptible.
I a) owned a beautiful Phoebus C for 3 years, and b) have been a fan,
teacher, and promoter of ground launch, but I resolved I would not myself
ground-launch that ship and never did.
-JHC
John H. Campbell
18
>years at Bluenose in NS -- hook in same low, at wheel location as the
Pheobus.
>Something to do with OC fuselage being longer?
You got it. All sailplanes are not created equal. The OC also has a lower
CG, bigger elevator with fixed horizontal stab portion that the Phoebus
doesn't. --JHC
Catherine Conway
My club (winch only) owned a Phoebus C and we had no problems at all with
launching it.
I have probably 50-100 launches in it and never had a problem.
My only comment would have been use two hands on the stick in high speed
flight - it can get into a pitch oscillation with turbulance. But this
has nothing to do with launching.
We trained pilots in a Bergfalke IV and Bocian IE. For some time, the
Phoebus served as the first (and only) single seater. None of those low
time pilots ever had problems winch launching it.
Here are some pictures of it as it is now (at Benalla - saw it there last
year) http://www.auscom.com.au/Cath/Benalla2000/ look at any photos
staring YB.
There's a picture of it when we owned it in our club newsletter
http://www.augc.aus-soaring.on.net/newslet/June01.pdf - see the
president's report.
Seriously I don't know what these other people are doing wrong to make
those comments about the Phoebus. We had no problems in about 6-7 years
of club operation.
-Cath
President/Instructor Adelaide University Gliding Club
South Australia
Al
Al
"Catherine Conway" <con...@agile.com.au> wrote in message
news:3C0318AA...@agile.com.au...
Jim Husain
>
>Al
You wouldn't happen to be British by any chance...
Jim
N483SZ
gapagod...@aol.com
Al
"Jim Husain" <gap...@aol.comSTOPSPAM> wrote in message
news:20011127001634...@mb-fu.aol.com...
Bill Dean.
Lasham in the 1970s, one bought new and one bought used.
I think our minimum requirement for flying them was 70 hours solo gliding,
and of course a Silver 'C'. We required at least 6 flights before flying
cross-country, however experienced the pilot.
We launched by aerotow and by car launch, Lasham did not have a winch at the
time. There were several in the country, I do not recall any stories at
the time of difficulty with launching, either aerotow, winch or car. I did
at least one winch launch, in the demonstrator glider owned by the agent, at
RAFGSA Four Counties club then based at RAF Spitalgate; no special briefing
and no problem. I expect we winched them at Portmoak as well. In those
days we would have been using 1,000lb. weak links (then standard in the
U.K.)
Problems with the glider:
1. VNE is only 108 knots, not a problem with us at Lasham, but watch it
on final glides and in wave! (Same as a Libelle 301).
2. Air-brakes not very effective despite being top and bottom, because
they are a long way back (same problem as the Libelle 301).
3. Weak undercarriage, easily uprooted by a heavy landing or a rough
field.
4. All flying tail without anti-balance tab, and with spring trim and
feel. The usual problem, like a K6E but worse because of the higher speeds
sometimes used. Be very, very careful on a fast final glide or in wave.
5. The hotelliers have to be connected while being rigged, and cannot be
inspected on Daily Inspection without partly unrigging the wings. We did
not consider this a problem in the 70s, we did not use safety pins then, but
I would consider it a problem today! Do positive checks.
The machines we had were not fitted with the tailchute, and did not have
water ballast.
Don't fly it at minimum cockpit weight until you know the machine well, fly
35lbs. or more over the bottom limit. This applies to any machine, but
particularly to one with an all flying tail, no anti-balance tab and spring
trim/feel.
We loved our Phoebi, they did a lot of good flying, and I had one of my best
wave flights in one. In its day we considered it equivalent in general
performance to an SHK or an Open Cirrus with no water ballast. I think the
results of the World Championships when these were the gliders to have bear
this out.
Any glider of German origin is likely to be O.K. on the winch, especially
the older gliders, because winching is so widely used in Germany. Of
course, it helps to be a pilot thoroughly used to winching.
Richard Brisbourne, you did a lot of flying in the Phoebi, any comment?
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>
> "Jeff Byrnes" <jbyr...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> news:fe49e4ca.01112...@posting.google.com...
> any problems? Thanks.
>
Richard Brisbourne
writes
>Richard Brisbourne, you did a lot of flying in the Phoebi, any comment?
>
I thought about diving in on this one. I certainly did lots of autotows
on the Phoebi with no problems whatever. Guess we didn't know it was
supposed to be difficult. The only reservation I had about commenting
is that the sort of acceleration we got on the F100's at Lasham was a
lot less than most modern winches, so maybe I was missing something.
Although I did around 200 hours on Phoebi including my 500km diamond,
much of it from autotows I was never a great enthusiast- I found the
cockpit rather uncomfortable, and rigging not too easy.
Certainly as you point out they were underbraked, particularly by modern
standards, although you can approach pretty slowly and they sideslip
nicely. Also we had occasional problems with the rather strange
undercarriage connection- I have memories of being waved at furiously by
people at the launchpoint when I _knew_ I was about to land wheel up- I
just couldn't get the damn thing down. Also, as I found out to my cost,
they break easily :-).
On the plus side, they represent a lot of bang for the buck, although I
reckon I could go just as fast in the Cobra I bought after moving on
from Lasham.
--
Richard Brisbourne
Wallace Berry
the accident, but was told that at the start of the launch the glider
pitched up steeply, stalled and impacted wing first. Luckily the pilot
was not seriously injured.
Wallace Berry
Catherine Conway
I can honestly say I have never experienced this.
We are a University club and have a lot of inexperienced people
learning both to fly and to drive the winch, making for interesting
launches at times.
I was down at the workshop last night (we are finishing the 30 yearly
inspection on the Bergfalke) and mentioned this and no-one there
could think of what the problem might be, Our ex-Chief Flying
Instructor said " so what are they doing to it?"
I've never had any problems launching it and neither did anyone else
and I've had fast, slow and all over the place launches.
If the tail is stalling, our only suggestion is to check that the
CofG range is correct and that the defelection on the elevator are
correct.
Otherwise sounds like the glider has got a reputation it doesn't deserve.
Conversely, we had a few pilots surprised by it in high speed flight
and in spinning.
High speed (>80 knts) if it hits a sharp gust, can give you an
oscillation in pitch.
Also, the all flying tail can roll inverted sometimes (not common)
before settling into a normal spin. It surprised me but was not
violent and spin recovery was immediate (with correct control
inputs). this might be interesting for you if you live in the US
because you don't have mandatory spin training. Adelaide Uni Gliding
Club encourages spins and we do lot of them. So I'd disagree with
the gentleman that said not to spin it. Just be aware that it's
slippery and picks up speed in the dive, but so is any other glass
glider.
I've never looped it but I think some of our people did. Usually all
flying tails loose authority at low speed and they can fall out of a
loop - more uncomfortable and uncool than anything else.
I'd recommend you do too whether or not you buy the Phoebus. I like
to spin every single seater (and two seater) I fly. When I visited
the US the instructor in Hawaii wouldn't let me spin the 2-33 :-(
The one thing about Phoebus's I would warn of, is the undercarriage
bulkhead. Our Phoebus had logbook entries regularly (2-3 year
intervals) that said "Undercarriage collapsed - bulkhead repaired".
Keep an eye on it. Of course it was in club service and getting lots
of use.
Remember too that the undercarriage lever works in an opposite sense
to most modern gliders. I found it heavy to use and used to nose
over to reduce the weight of the wheel when putting it up (I was
quite little - 5'4" and 55kg).
Rigging was a bit annoying because you had to connect the
l'hotellier's with the wings mostly in.
Actually the only problem I had with launching was the seat pan shape
- if the winch launch was too fast I'd slide back into the luggage
compartment :-)
(so -yes I did get lots of too fast launches and when I slid back I'm
sure I probably pulled back on the stick by side effect - all the
things that are apparently bad - but I never had any problems with
the tail stalling - or it doing anything else it shouldn't do).
The tail parachute is fun to play with.
It's a great weak weather machine. David won the Murray Bridge
contest in 1987 because he was the only one to get home on a weak
day. He beat Discus's etc. You should have seen his grin. I
outlanded in the Bergfalke.
Just asked someone else in the office and his reaction was the same -
"Huh how can there be problems winch launching that? Must be a myth
because it's got an all flying tail" (There are 4 glider pilots here,
3 who have flow the Phoebus, and 1 power pilot)
He did remind me to tell you that another thing to watch however, is
airspeed on final. If you are too fast, the airflow separates on the
wing before it reaches the airbrakes (which are small and well back)
and they stop working. Actually full airbrake + tail chute is about
the same as most other glider's airbrakes. they are weaker than the
Std Libelle.
Have you actually had email from anyone who had this problem or is it
an old-wives tale about the aeroplane -just hearsay? I've had
feedback from my posting but only from people telling me how bad
they've heard it was.
What's your experience in gliders? I'd suggest that the Phoebus is
not for a newly solo pilot but represents good performance, value and
fun for a pilot with some experience.
-Cath
>Hi Catherine,
>
>
>
>Here,
>is another. In the Phoebus have you ever experienced a fast launch,
>where the winch driver was over aggressive. This action is seemingly
>the causes of all the concern with the winch launch of the Phoebus.
>Under this condition the nose raises and this in turn causes a tail
>stall. Others have stated that if this happens you should pull back on
>the stick, before pushing forward on the stick to level the plane. They
>claim if you fail to do this the nose will remain in a nose high
>attitude and the tail will stall. Have you experienced this or anything
>similar?
>
>
>Thanks again ,Jeff Byrnes
Catherine Conway
ever saw.
Of course since then so is my Boomerang, Ventus and just about every glider
I've flown :-)
_Cath
"Al" <asw17...@bigwings.org> wrote in message
news:u067c4e...@news.supernews.com...
Dick Johnson
C sailplane as long as the initial acceleration is not too great. The
all-moving horizontal tail on these sailplanes have more propensity to
stall than those of sailplanes equipped with conventional fixed
stabilizer/elevator configurations. When the all-moving stabilizer
stalls during an excessively high acceleration take-off, pushing the
control stick forward usually just puts the horizontal tail deeper
into its stall, and therefore it is even more ineffective.
At low airspeeds, the nose up couple produced by a strong tow rope
pull and a high sailplane CG location can easily overpower the
aerodynamic nose down capability of an elevator control system, and
that leads to an uncontrollable nose up pitch during take-off. In a
number of instances, this has lead to the sailplane stalling and
crashing; usually with fatal results. The Phoebus is not the only
sailplane that is susceptible to this fault, so be careful of high
initial tow acceleration - auto as well as winch. I have been there!
Dick Johnson