Any experience with the Anemoi wind estimation device?

[J6 aka Airport Bum]

If anyone out there has any experience with the Anemoi wind estimation device, please comment. It looks interesting to me....

https://www.fly-anemoi.com/

Cheers,
Jim J6

[Paul Agnew]

This is the first time I've seen that system.

For that kind of money, I'd look at the LXNAX-HAWK upgrade available for V9, V8, V80, S10 and S100 varios, plus the LX80x0 and LX90x0. Reviews have been outstanding.

PA

[Mark Mocho]

> For that kind of money, I'd look at the LXNAX-HAWK upgrade available for V9, V8, V80, S10 and S100 varios, plus the LX80x0 and LX90x0. Reviews have been outstanding.

Be sure to check the serial number of your Vx, LX 80xx or LX 90xx, as earlier versions do not support LXNav Hawk.

[Nicholas Kennedy]

From the Anemoi website:

The core of the anemoi consists of a sophisticated 14-dimensional, non-linear Kalman filter combining inertial & pressure sensors and GPS-data. The result is a very precise measuring device, calibrating itself during flight and capable of delivering correct wind data during prolonged straight and level flight.

It says the wind indication is updated during prolonged straight and level flight.
Why not circling flight?

Nick
T

[Eric Greenwell]

I'm guessing that's implied, as wind determination during circling flight is much easier
than straight flight, and is currently done by all high end varios.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

[J6 aka Airport Bum]

Hi Nick,

Good question. Circling flight is actually the flight phase that provides the best calculation of "live wind" (instantaneous wind) from a Kalman filter algorithm. Any flight phase with many heading/speed changes and/or updraft/downdraft exposure gives the algorithm the kind of flight state changes it needs to keep itself well aligned and calculating accurate numbers. The challenging flight phase is the long straight SMOOTH AIR glides (that's why they brought it up in the marketing statement you refer to). According to the manual, during/after a long straight SMOOTH AIR glide, a set of 3-4 heading changes of 10 degrees or more will bring the calculation back into alignment. This does not sound onerous to me, in fact I would suspect many if not most long glides experience at least some updraft/downdraft action (e.g., not so smooth) and/or inherently have some >10 degree heading changes occurring regularly anyway. (Or maybe I'm just such a lousy pilot that I can't fly on speed and heading very well, haha!)

See the Anemoi Installation/Operation Manual (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0635/7129/6477/files/IOM_anemoi_v1.05.pdf?v=1657134707) Page 24 for information on the integrity of the live wind calculation in various flight phases - cut and paste below:

"<quote>

Due to physical constraints, the quality and reliability of the indicated wind vector has small variations depending on flight phases.

Right after takeoff: Live wind is very reliable, as the takeoff roll has given the inertial measurement platform an ideal opportunity to perfectly align.

Normal soaring maneuvering with occasional heading changes (10° or more) or airspeed changes (20 km/h or more) every 2-4 minutes: Live wind is reliable for decision taking, as the occasional slight changes in flight state can permanently keep the IMU aligned.

Circling: Live wind is almost 100% reliable. This is the best-case scenario because the IMU is continuously being kept aligned.

Mid-Flight switch-on or reboot: Live wind initially only correctly represents head / tailwind component. Once a full turn or 3-4 heading changes of 30° or more have been flown, the IMU is aligned again to correctly capture the full wind vector.

After a long, steady, unaccelerated straight flight in smooth air (20 km or more): Live wind is not fully reliable as the errors that slowly build up in the IMU cannot be fully distinguished from changes of the wind vector anymore. When in doubt, e. g. before approaching a new ridge after a very long smooth glide, it is recommended to fly 3-4 heading changes of 10° or more to allow for the IMU to re-align. Live wind will immediately update to indicate the correct wind vector. Note that such small maneuvers are usually unconsciously done on a regular basis (every few minutes, which is fully sufficient) by soaring pilots trying to find the best energy line, even during long glides.

<unquote>"

Cheers,
Jim J6

[J6 aka Airport Bum]

Hi Paul,

Yes the HAWK sure seems to be proving out to be a great system. And HAWK puts the Kalman filter technology to work in the LXNAV varios also ("blue pointer"). Anemoi (as it is today...) is winds only, and does not include a variometer function.

I do not have any LXNAV hardware in my glider (I use OpenVario and Air Avionics vario) so going to a HAWK system would require me to buy at least an S10/S100, and thereby cost me at around 2.5 times as much as buying an Anemoi. If I already had HAWK compatible LXNAV hardware in my panel, then the money to do HAWK (software license) vs Anemoi (hardware and software) would be comparable.....

The Air Avionics vario I currently have in my panel uses Kalman filter technology in its variometer function, and provides "instantaneous vario" display via its "blue ball". This "blue ball" is the Kalman filter based vario reading, and for me it works great, I suspect providing similar information as the HAWK "blue pointer". The Air Avionics technology uses a slightly different sensor mix in its Kalman filter (it includes an error-prone magnetic compass sensor signal as one of it's inputs, HAWK and Anemoi cleverly avoided using any mag sensor signals) but for me it still works great as a vario, much better than any other vario I have ever used.

I am attracted to Anemoi because the display of winds is much superior (in my view) to my current Air Avionics vario's wind display. The Air Avionics vario just shows the instantaneous wind only, I would like to see both average and instantaneous overlaid on the same display, thereby showing trend/change information in an instantly recognized way. I am impressed by the Anemoi's clear overlay and distinction of average and instantaneous winds shown by the single dedicated Anemoi display (like HAWK provides if you toggle to its winds page, according to the marketing information I have seen). Also, I like large clear dedicated displays for such important and useful information as winds and wind trends (especially for mountain and ridge flying), I don't want to have to toggle displays to see wind information.

Anyway, just an explanation as to why I think the Anemoi looks interesting to me.....

I would love to hear from someone who has flown with Anemoi....

Cheers,
Jim J6

[Stuart Venters]

Jim, thanks for sharing. These seem to be getting more common. I found
some things especially interesting in the manual.


Page 23 is a list of how one might use the wind data in specific situations.

Page 19, it does not insist on using it's own GPS antenna. Very nice.
Wish other folks would do the same. (I lost count after 4)

Page 11, for a static reference, says do not use the multiprobe, instead
whatever the ASI is hooked to.

For those so inclined, in addition to the user manual, there is an
Interface doc for the link between the sensor and display. You can get
the attitude and wind state vectors at 15Hz for other things. Others do
the same on a CAN bus, but don't publish the formats. (A published
Airglide or S10+Hawk CanBus data item spec would be nice.)

The ICD describes the wind vector as direction and magnitude.
Definitely a 2D thing with no vertical component. Seems strange that
they appear to be choosing to not do vario stuff.

The proof in the pudding is how well it compares against other stuff.
They have a short video showing it matching an Airglide, but it would
take a much longer sequence to get an idea.

-Stu

[J6 aka Airport Bum]

Stu,

As I stated in a previous post, I currently have an Air Avionics vario (I guess officially called the "Air Glide Display S" and "Air Glide Sensor Unit") and I love it. I also have an "Air Glide NMEA Unit" (currently unused) which can connect to the Air Glide Sensor Unit via CANaerospace bus and deliver a simple set of data via RS232 port (RJ45, standard IGC-Pinout for RS232c). Here is a link to a documentation page which contains the installation manual for this NMEA Unit: https://www.air-avionics.com/?page_id=401 It is towards the bottom..... Page 10 of the manual shows the data available through that RJ45 port. There is no discussion of the Air Glide CANaerospace bus interface (durn). This is the only published way I know of to get data out of the Air Glide device. Note that the Air Glide's calculated wind (direction and strength) is available through this RJ45 port, as well as "vario" (but which? Instantaneous (blue ball) or total energy? Grrrr). Perhaps this would be helpful to you in your quest for access to Air Glide device data.....

Before I discovered the Anemoi, I was considering making a custom display unit that would accept this Air Glide wind information (from the Kalman filter algorithm, e.g. "instantaneous winds") and the wind information from my OpenVario (XCSoar software) (the standard simple "average wind" algorithm) and overlay/display them on a dedicated display (my ultimate goal). But now with Anemoi it looks like I can get that sort of standalone/dedicated winds display "out of the box" without any development effort (which would've been fun but of course would've taken money and time).

Now I think I will just go with the Anemoi, but I sure would like to hear from someone who has flown with it....

Cheers,
Jim J6

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 12:34:35 PM UTC-5, Stuart Venters wrote:
> >
>
> For those so inclined, in addition to the user manual, there is an
> Interface doc for the link between the sensor and display. You can get
> the attitude and wind state vectors at 15Hz for other things. Others do
> the same on a CAN bus, but don't publish the formats. (A published
> Airglide or S10+Hawk CanBus data item spec would be nice.)
>

> -Stu

[Eric Greenwell]

I suggest you contact Anemoi, and ask for a 30 day trial, just as LXNav does for the Hawk;
also, ask them if there are any groups, Google/Usenet/whatever, that are discussing the
unit that you could join, or if there have been any articles published.

[jfitch]

Jim, perhaps you need to updgrade to iGlide, which allows display of real time wind and average wind :-).

[krasw]

On Tuesday, 20 September 2022 at 19:37:34 UTC+3, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> The Air Avionics vario I currently have in my panel uses Kalman filter technology in its variometer function, and provides "instantaneous vario" display via its "blue ball". This "blue ball" is the Kalman filter based vario reading, and for me it works great, I suspect providing similar information as the HAWK "blue pointer". The Air Avionics technology uses a slightly different sensor mix in its Kalman filter (it includes an error-prone magnetic compass sensor signal as one of it's inputs, HAWK and Anemoi cleverly avoided using any mag sensor signals) but for me it still works great as a vario, much better than any other vario I have ever used.
>

Kalman filter is not some latest and greatest computer magic, it is a very old technique to remove systematic bias from signal. Most common would be your everyday weather forecast. Let's say your temperature forecast for yesterday was 100 deg, and observation 105 deg. Kalman-corrected temperature forecast for tomorrow (in same conditions) would add that 5 degrees to forecast based on yesterday's forecast error. (To be accurate, weather forecasting moved from Kalman to modern signal processing decades ago).

So, it is no magic, just common signal filtering. Now what can computer do without that compass signal? Just look for small differences between consecutive speed vectors, and try to calculate wind vector based on comparing these. For identical speed vectors (straight flight), you still get no meaningful data. And almost straight flight leads to unreliable data (as HAWK users have told). Same thing with Anemoi. This is all you can do with no compass data.

What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will find better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!

[Mark Mocho]

> What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info.

This is, of course, assuming that your yaw string is straight. If your nose is drifting left and right and the yaw string looks like a windshield wiper, the information from the compass is going to be skewed also. The GPS track cannot compensate for improper alignment with the airflow. Flying in a constant slip would also make the wind vector differ from actual. But of course, we NEVER do that.

[Eric Greenwell]

On 9/21/2022 5:54 AM, Mark Mocho wrote:
>> What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info.
>
> This is, of course, assuming that your yaw string is straight. If your nose is drifting left and right and the yaw string looks like a windshield wiper, the information from the compass is going to be skewed also. The GPS track cannot compensate for improper alignment with the airflow. Flying in a constant slip would also make the wind vector differ from actual. But of course, we NEVER do that.

I don't think a few degrees, say 10 degrees, of heading error will produce a significant
wind error (it'd be few percent in magnitude). On a 4" long yaw string, 10 degrees of slip
is a deflection of 0.7", so practically, most pilots would be better than that, and I
don't think even a 10 degree error in wind direction would change a pilot's decisions.

[Mark Mocho]

I didn't say the error would be significant, I just pointed out that there is a potential for error.

[J6 aka Airport Bum]

Yikes, I am embarrassed to say that iGlide didn't even occur to me! I'll look into this, thanks!

Cheers,
Jim J6

[Eric Greenwell]

On 9/21/2022 3:14 AM, krasw wrote:
..

>
> What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will find better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!

User reports indicate Hawk works at least as well as the Air/Butterfly vario, and has
significant advantages over the Air/Butterfly: it's in current production, it is supported
by the manufacturer, it has an active user group, and is continuing to be developed. For
all those reasons, I am no longer concerned about losing the Air vario and it's excellent
wind determination when I eventually replace it with an LXNav 9000/9070 display and V8 vario.

[krasw]

I have heard user reports that wind in straight flight is not that reliable, and saying that wind measurement would be "as good as" system with 3D-compass sensor is just not based on understanding what is possible with these systems. I bet Hawk can be good enough for most pilots.

The thing with these high-end systems is that there are very few pilots that can tell if wind measurement (or vario signal) is good or bad. You won't believe how many LX9000 systems I have seen are on factory default settings, and with pilots hardly knowing how to change vario from climb to cruise mode (I kid you not). These guys are happy with wind arrow pointing to any direction.

Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off.

[J6 aka Airport Bum]

Good inputs, thanks.

Yes, the Kalman filter is not magic, just math, but definitely a brilliant insight and breakthrough. Here is a great info source on Kalman filters, a bit of history and background and then some of the math:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter

Note that (according to this page) one of the earliest practical applications of the Kalman filter was the Apollo navigation computer. Very cool.

A "very old technique"? Hey, I resemble that remark! Kalman first published on this in 1960, and I was born in 1955, you trying to make me feel "very old"? Its working.... Hahahaha!

And speaking of "very old", YES my 67 year old eyes could use a bigger arrow than on the Air Avionics display! Or any other wind arrow I've seen in a glider cockpit so far! Hahahaha!

Seriously, what I really want is an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display (large format preferred, remember 67 year old eyes....) showing average and instantaneous winds simultaneously. The Anemoi display seems to fit the bill for me - but I wonder if the Anemoi winds calculation is any good, hence this post. Right now, to get this instantaneous vs average comparison, I need to bounce between the wind arrow on my Air Avionics vario and the wind arrow on my OpenVario (XCSoar). A pain.

Regarding magnetic compass as a dimension in the Kalman filter, I fully concur that mag compass input to the Kalman filter improves the calculation, as long as its errors are kept low - yes you must have a proper installation. My Air Avionics sensor box installation (under the glareshield in my ASH-26E) is pretty much at the minimum recommended distances from possible corrupting magnetic field sources, and it seems to perform quite well in both wind and vario performance. In over 300 hours of flying with it, I have had a few (less than half a dozen) strange instances of completely wrong readings, but they cleared up quickly (usually within seconds). I have no idea what caused these glitches.

So there are reports that Anemoi (and HAWK?) have problems with unreliable data in straight flight mode? The Anemoi manual does acknowledge that particular characteristic, and they recommend executing three to four >10 deg heading changes after a long straight smooth glide before winds can be considered reliable. I would like to hear from an experienced Anemoi user if this technique truly does work, and if it is or is not onerous in the applicable situations.... And also how well Anemoi winds work in general. Any problems, obviously and persistently wrong wind estimates, or flaky indications? Chronic or occasional? Possible causes? This is the sort of information I am seeking.

I just saw your new post noting "Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off." I couldn't agree more! I love my Air Avionics vario (winds and vario), and have no intention of removing it. In fact, I have acquired a spare, in case the one in my '26 breaks. I just want an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display of both instantaneous and average winds. Jon has suggested iGlide (which I believe links into the Air Avionics instantaneous wind calculation via Bluetooth?), I will be looking into that.... Or maybe I should just saddle up and make my own dedicated display to show Air Avionics instantaneous winds and OpenVario (XCSoar) average winds together.

Hoping to hear from some Anemoi users soon. If you would rather go private, contact me at julietsix at gmail dot com

Cheers,
Jim J6

[Eric Greenwell]

I'm not looking for better wind measuring, but do want one that integrates with an
LX900xx, is supported, and still being improved. "Still being improved" means Hawk could
be better than the Air Avionics vario, sooner or later.

I'm not completely committed to doing without the Air Avionics vario, as there are other
reasons for keeping it: since it is independent of the LX90xx, it provides backups for a
final glide computer, a backup vario, and an AHRS.

[Herbert Kilian]

Jim (J6) and All,
I bought an Anemoi at this year's Oshkosh show but have not had an opportunity to install it and will report on it later. Since my LX9000 is Gen 3 and not upgradable, the Hawk track looked too expensive to me. The unit in fact shows instantaneous and 3-min average wind and also has an attitude inicator. It is stand-alone and not connected to other instruments except for aGPS source, I will use my P-Flarm. The package is very complete and comes with all necessary cables. Installation is a bit involved with the box containing the electronic bits having to be installed aligned with the yaw axis and at zero bank. The pitch angle is less sensitive and can be adjusted to zero in flight. After some haggling I got the system for $1,000, your price may vary.
Herb, J7

[son_of_flubber]

I've been flying with an Anemoi for a few months in the Sugarbush VT area. Assuming the displayed information is accurate, wind interacting with terrain is much more complicated than I had previously imagined. Real time and average wind magnitude and direction diverge in surprising ways when there is convection, sometimes opposed by 180 degrees.

In a stable inversion, every altitude can have its own direction and speed. Maybe one day I saw two wave systems above a single geographic location, the tertiary updraft for wave system B, underneath the primary updraft for wave system A. (Or maybe I'm confused by the data.) The interpolation in wind forecasts smudges details that might be useful to a glider pilot in the moment.

<Confirmation Bias Alert> I think Anemoi helped me find lift on several occasions. One day Anemoi helped me find a single isolated spot of ridge lift in a weak 8 knot wind that was hitting a small section of a convoluted ridge at just the right angle. One day Anemoi helped me fly a 'cloud street' on a cloudless blue sky day. I found more small patches of convergence than I had previously found without the Anemoi.

It's certainly fun to try to integrate the wind data with what I'm seeing in the clouds and terrain in order to guess where I should poke around to find lift, and why the clouds are doing what they're doing. The display is simple and can be read at a glance. I mounted it centered near the top edge of my panel.

Anemoi is a sensor box connected by a wire to a display. RS-Flight systems is opening the communication protocol used on that wire so that third party 'display vendors' can process the raw data and display it in interesting/useful ways. I'm hoping that some smart people figure out how to digest the raw data, maybe display it on a moving map of terrain? Or to paint a picture of the last 360 in the current thermal? (The LXNav HAWK system does not share the raw data in real time.)

[krasw]

On Thursday, 22 September 2022 at 05:24:49 UTC+3, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I've been flying with an Anemoi for a few months in the Sugarbush VT area. Assuming the displayed information is accurate, wind interacting with terrain is much more complicated than I had previously imagined. Real time and average wind magnitude and direction diverge in surprising ways when there is convection, sometimes opposed by 180 degrees.
>

Yes, it is simply amazing how much is happening with horizontal wind that we knew nothing about! There are as much (or even more) horizontal changes in airmass movement as there are vertical changes, which we of course are familiar with because we have variometer.

[jfitch]

The Air Vario link to the iPhone is WiFi, not Bluetooth. Hard to get visibility into what is transmitted, but a whole lot more than is in the LX sentences sent on their NMEA converter box. Among the Navboxes that can be configured are 'True Wind". A constant display (might not be big enough for your wishes) are two vectors surrounding your glider icon, representing (I believe...) real time and average. It is however easier for me to follow the vector displayed in the Navbox on the Display S.

I have three sources of wind data and the Air Vario is the most reliable by some distance, and the only one that responds to momentary changes. In steady state straight flight, they all agree somewhat. The iGlide thermal assistant draws the familiar green lift dots, but also puts inside each, one per second, an instantaneous wind vector. If you believe this, the wind surrounding (at least a strong western thermal) is quite dynamic, with the vectors tending to point towards the center of lift. I have come to believe it. There are too many instances where the Air Vario vector indicates a strong side wind, other sources are oblivious, but ground drift obviously confirms the Air Vario's version. In straight flight I have discovered large tail or headwinds, instantly picked up by the Air, confirmed by looking at TAS and GS, but ignored by other instruments. It is quite useful to hunt for the middle of western convergence lines, or the existence of wavelets or shear, both seemly invisible to other wind calculations. I'd like to try it side by side with the Hawk, but not enough to climb into the cesspool of bad UI that characterizes much of LX stuff.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

I am quiet confused by all the bloviation concerning instrumentation to assist in wind direction. Please help me out, some speak of wind sheer, others speak of thermal centering and I am quiet confused by the importance placed on some new instrument that will give you wind direction, can't you guys figure it out, or is it a motorglider thing?? If you are so inept to look at your GS and AS, and drift, then what the heck is some instrument that is not even proven going to do for you? I tell you what it will do, it will keep your eyes in the cockpit instead of out where they belong.
We fly in more wind sheer than anywhere in the country, it last for twelve months here in Fl, and the same with convergence. I have never used wind direction to determine where the center of the thermal is, also never used it to determine sheer, you are better off looking at the clouds and the ground to see what is going on. This is absolutely comical, go back to the basics. Old Bob, The Purist

[Dan Marotta]

Got my beer and popcorn ready..........

Dan
5J

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 5:49:21 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Got my beer and popcorn ready..........

Yep Dan, things are really getting bazaar here on RAS, I wish they would take this kind of stuff over to RAS Prime, what in the heck will they come up with next, a directional survey of the urine discharge. I guess I am way too old for this kind of technology. Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

On 9/22/2022 1:28 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:48:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
>> The Air Vario link to the iPhone is WiFi, not Bluetooth. Hard to get visibility into what is transmitted, but a whole lot more than is in the LX sentences sent on their NMEA converter box. Among the Navboxes that can be configured are 'True Wind". A constant display (might not be big enough for your wishes) are two vectors surrounding your glider icon, representing (I believe...) real time and average. It is however easier for me to follow the vector displayed in the Navbox on the Display S.
>>
>> I have three sources of wind data and the Air Vario is the most reliable by some distance, and the only one that responds to momentary changes. In steady state straight flight, they all agree somewhat. The iGlide thermal assistant draws the familiar green lift dots, but also puts inside each, one per second, an instantaneous wind vector. If you believe this, the wind surrounding (at least a strong western thermal) is quite dynamic, with the vectors tending to point towards the center of lift. I have come to believe it. There are too many instances where the Air Vario vector indicates a strong side wind, other sources are oblivious, but ground drift obviously confirms the Air Vario's version. In straight flight I have discovered large tail or headwinds, instantly picked up by the Air, confirmed by looking at TAS and GS, but ignored by other instruments. It is quite useful to hunt for the middle of western convergence lines, or the existence of wavelets or shear, both seemly invisible to other wind calculations. I'd like to try it side by side with the Hawk, but not enough to climb into the cesspool of bad UI that characterizes much of LX stuff.

...

>
> I am quiet confused by all the bloviation concerning instrumentation to assist in wind direction. Please help me out, some speak of wind sheer, others speak of thermal centering and I am quiet confused by the importance placed on some new instrument that will give you wind direction, can't you guys figure it out, or is it a motorglider thing?? If you are so inept to look at your GS and AS, and drift, then what the heck is some instrument that is not even proven going to do for you? I tell you what it will do, it will keep your eyes in the cockpit instead of out where they belong.
> We fly in more wind sheer than anywhere in the country, it last for twelve months here in Fl, and the same with convergence. I have never used wind direction to determine where the center of the thermal is, also never used it to determine sheer, you are better off looking at the clouds and the ground to see what is going on. This is absolutely comical, go back to the basics. Old Bob, The Purist

You have never had an "instantaneous" wind display, so it follows you have never used one
for anything. You also fly over flat ground hundreds of miles from mountains and hills
that disturb and twist the wind. Given your inexperience with instant wind and in an area
with simple geography, you really should try one before mocking the pilots using them, and
you should look around, and notice which pilots are using these instruments, or at least
testing them. There are many successful pilots looking for better wind, or a replacement
for the no-longer-supported Butterfly/Air Avionics vario.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Eric, you better get off that crack pipe and get realistic. I wish that you had experienced the flights that I have experienced through convective activity here in Florida. Come on down and we will fly through thunderboomers and watch the light show right in front of you. Old Bob, The Purist

[Herbert Kilian]

If you only would be quiet then you wouldn't be so quite confused (English is the easiest language to learn, btw.) Now, it's again all about you and them damned motorglider pilots who don't know where the wind is coming from. At least I know now, why you don't post long xc flights - you always turn the wrong direction when entering a thermal. That makes it two things you need to work on, good luck.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Herbie, I speak four languages, I think I have English down fairly well, but what gets me is that the motorglider guys cannot figure out which direction and velocity the wind is blowing. Do you really need an instrument that gives you the results that is 40% accurate. Have you never figured this out while flying, maybe you should work on you math skills instead of language skills. My gosh, what is wrong with you motorglider guys, go back to basic aviation, desired track, current heading, ground speed, and true airspeed, is it that too complicated for you? Maybe you need an old E6B. Old Bob, The Purist

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Herbie, The correct English would be those damn motorgliders, not them. Tighten up. Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

How will any of that show me anything about the value of instantaneous wind?

[jfitch]

Old Bob, this is just another case of 'you don't know what you don't know'. And you don't know much. Some good advice is: to keep from looking ridiculous, you should stick to talking about things you are at least familiar with. Google "Dunning-Kruger effect" while looking hard in the mirror.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 11:58:40 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> Old Bob, this is just another case of 'you don't know what you don't know'. And you don't know much. Some good advice is: to keep from looking ridiculous, you should stick to talking about things you are at least familiar with. Google "Dunning-Kruger effect" while looking hard in the mirror.

Fitch, I was wondering when you were going to come out of the closet and opine on the subject, nothing like having a rookie on the roster. Maybe it would be good for you to understand the Imposter Syndrome, but I really don't think that would describe you motorglider pilots, the Peter Principle would certainly be much better description.
Since "Bum" started this thread I would once again ask why such an instrument would be that valuable to you as a glider pilot, and why other means of acquiring the same information as we have done for decades is no longer valid or not accessible. Some of these guys on here think that technology gives you a huge advantage, I think that some of the technology, yet not all, has dumb downed the sport. Just words of thought! Old Bob, The Purist

[John Galloway]

> Herbie, I speak four languages, I think I have English down fairly well, but what gets me is that the motorglider guys cannot figure out which direction and velocity the wind is blowing. Do you really need an instrument that gives you the results that is 40% accurate. Have you never figured this out while flying, maybe you should work on you math skills instead of language skills. My gosh, what is wrong with you motorglider guys, go back to basic aviation, desired track, current heading, ground speed, and true airspeed, is it that too complicated for you? Maybe you need an old E6B. Old Bob, The Purist

If you don't know when you might find a more accurate instantaneous wind estimation useful then you don't need it.

[Eric Greenwell]

On 9/23/2022 12:54 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

> I would once again ask why such an instrument would be that valuable to you as a glider pilot, and why other means of acquiring the same information as we have done for decades is no longer valid or not accessible.

The need has been described here already, but let's try again: where there are hills and
mountains, the wind can't flow smoothly as it can in flat Florida, and the direction and
strength (aka "velocity") are hard to predict. The "done for decades" techniques, which
you describe as:

"Go back to basic aviation, desired track, current heading, ground speed, and true

airspeed, is it that too complicated for you?"

does not work in lumpy terrain because the wind velocity changes too quickly for it to be
used; further, when you are flying close to mountains and hills, your attention is mostly
devoted to avoiding terrain, leaving little time to solve track/heading/speed problems.
It's so much easier to just glance at a wind meter instead.

[jfitch]

Well Bob, jpg is right on this one. If you don't know what to do with the information, then it won't be useful to you. If you had such an instrument, you might find that the wind is much more dynamic than you thought, not just blowing from left to right at a nice steady speed. It can change radically, in seconds, and that information is useful. When you see a dust devil come through, would you describe it as a nice uniform flow field? Do you think "looking at the clouds and ground" gives you an accurate picture of what is going on in that dust devil? Now imagine being out west, where the ground and clouds might be a mile (or two) away, and you are in that dust devil, or flow much like it. (Sorry about that, I'm asking for imagination from someone with none.) Convergence lines and the bottom of wavelets are similarly dynamic, and invisible to your methods. "We have always done it this way" as an excuse to stick to the past will keep you stuck there. I'm surprised you adopted new fangled fiberglass gliders. I suspect your telephone still has a dial on it and you are using a vacuum tube radio "as we have done for decades". Once again you are deriding something of which you are completely ignorant. Get some time with one of these instruments, preferably in a motorglider, then we can have a discussion of the merits of these things.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Fitch, I have a bit of time left prior to departure so let me answer some of your questions. I have had a fiberglass since 1970's, I do have an modern iphone, buy did keep that flip jewel for quiet a while. I have never been in a situation where I could not figure out which way and what direction the wind was blowing. I did it the old fashioned way back in 1983 when I made a flight that took me almost to the island of Bimini, you can read about it if you like, in an old Soaring Magazine. I too embrace and like the advancements brought about by technology, but I see no need for cluttering and and relying on something that just dumbs down my skills, kind of like motorgliders, they remind me of the training wheels on my first bicycle.
Well I guess that this pretty much sums up my thoughts on this subject, take acre of yourself, keep the misfits calm, I am just retreating for a while, but plan on being back for the holidays. Your favorite purist. Old Bob