Reasons NOT to buy a PW-5???
Noam Levy
Anyone out there knows of a reason why NOT to buy a PW-5? It appears
that delivery schedules frow PZL are very short, meaning not too many
people are buying the cute glider. Any known problems?
Andreas Maurer
Noam Levy <myh...@ccsg.tau.ac.il> wrote:
Hmmm...as expensive as any ASW-15, but performance much worse...?
Andreas
Jean-Marie Clément
Unless you are an organization which is FORCED to participate to the World Class Games, there
is strictly no reason to buy such a glider. Why pay at to-day's price the performance of 30
years ago ? For half of the cost a PW5, you can get an excellent standard class 15 years old
with much better speed and penetration capability (L/D alone does not mean anything).
Someone wrote on the Net: why should we rebuilt a fiberglass Ka8 ? That's the point!
Greetings, Jean-Marie
John H Campbell
On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> Hmmm...as expensive as any ASW-15, but performance much worse...?
>
And now, reasons to buy a PW-5 instead of an ASW-15 (and I love the ASW!).
Especially accute if you're a newcomer to soaring, a first-time buyer, and
not used to old traditions (picky modern folk put up with less and less?)
- brand new (too many people care, sad to say)
- no "mushroom" inspections (not that I've heard of a failed one)
- more forgiving to low time pilots (ground clearance, etc.)
- more damage resistant, more repairable?
- more product support in the future?
- easier to rig (did I hear 80 lb. wings? no stands?)
- smaller (less hangar space, smaller trailer,...)
(... see Derek Piggott's "Which sailplane" in GLIDING SAFETY for other
issue besides price/performance... Why not ASW-12 for that matter?)
but most important: there is no ASW-15 competition class, World association,
Olympic/World-Air-Games destiny, brotherhood. USA pilots know that the
1-26 is a miserable performance machine, but 1-26 pilots are a breed of
their own and they have as much or more fun than anyone.
And frankly, 32:1 (PW-5) vs. 21:1 (1-26) makes a HUGE difference in
reaching the next thermal or not. 38:1 (ASW-15) vs. 32:1 (PW-5, Russia,
L-33,1-36, Silent,...), a few bugs' worth, just gives you more speed.
--John H. Campbell
Camp...@mscd.edu
Tor Olav Steine
Andreas Maurer wrote:
>
> Noam Levy <myh...@ccsg.tau.ac.il> wrote:
>
> >Anyone out there knows of a reason why NOT to buy a PW-5? It appears
> >that delivery schedules frow PZL are very short, meaning not too many
> >people are buying the cute glider. Any known problems?
>
I do not think it is honest to compare yesterdays hot ships with a brand new
competition glider. Apples should be compared to apples. What does a new ASW
24 cost? Or LS 8,Discus WL? Those should be compared with the PW-5 pricewise.
As for performance: all gliders in World Class have equvivalent performance.
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> Market Share as, Tor Olav Steine. SW marketing tools
>> t...@sn.no Tel/Fax: +4767-568505/+4767568701
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I fly better than I spell>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Andreas Maurer
Tor Olav Steine <t...@sn.no> wrote:
>I do not think it is honest to compare yesterdays hot ships with a brand new
>competition glider. Apples should be compared to apples. What does a new ASW
>24 cost? Or LS 8,Discus WL? Those should be compared with the PW-5 pricewise.
>As for performance: all gliders in World Class have equvivalent performance.
Of course you are absolutely right... ;-))
On the other hand: Especially here in Germany there is almost noone
even thinking about buying a Worls Class glider, simply because an
"old" ASW-15 or LS-1 flies much better (hmmm...at least, ist has a
better glide ratio) for the same amount of money.
And what I have seen (perhaps it was not the best PW-5) was a glider
that was finished much worse than most of the 20 year old ASW's...
Let's see how many World Class gliders are going to be sold, then
we'll see, if this class is successfull...
At least in Germany, as much as I know, the World Class is not going
to be successfull in the close future.
Andreas
Andreas Maurer
John H Campbell <jcam...@carbon.cudenver.edu> wrote:
>And now, reasons to buy a PW-5 instead of an ASW-15 (and I love the ASW!).
>Especially accute if you're a newcomer to soaring, a first-time buyer, and
>not used to old traditions (picky modern folk put up with less and less?)
> - brand new (too many people care, sad to say)
..i saw a PW-5 (the prototype?) two years ago and was extremely
disappointed about its finish. I hope that it is better now.
> - no "mushroom" inspections (not that I've heard of a failed one)
hmmm...that is a unique problem of the ASW-15 (a couple of them were
grounded :-((( ). Usually it is no problem if a glider has got 5000
hrs.
> - more forgiving to low time pilots (ground clearance, etc.)
A good point! Especially the older Standard Class planes are not
always easy to control...
> - more damage resistant, more repairable?
Hmmm...with the manufacturer sited in Poland? We'll see how the
problem of the shipping of spare parts is going to be solved...
For an ASW-15 it is quite easy to get spare parts (at least in
Europe), but I once tried to get a new gear for a SZD-55. It took half
a year... :-((
> - more product support in the future?
> - easier to rig (did I hear 80 lb. wings? no stands?)
80 lb or 95 lb, were's the great difference?
(BTW: The Russia's wing has got about 50 lb...wonderful!)
> - smaller (less hangar space, smaller trailer,...)
Also not the great difference: 13,50 or 15 meters? hmm ...
>(... see Derek Piggott's "Which sailplane" in GLIDING SAFETY for other
> issue besides price/performance... Why not ASW-12 for that matter?)
Hmmm.. I do not know GLIDING SAFETY...what's it about?
>but most important: there is no ASW-15 competition class, World association,
>Olympic/World-Air-Games destiny, brotherhood. USA pilots know that the
>1-26 is a miserable performance machine, but 1-26 pilots are a breed of
>their own and they have as much or more fun than anyone.
The I-26 Class is an example for the US. I guess, this class is
unique.
In Europe the so called Club Class, covering the older Standard Class
planes, is very popular (even more popular then the FAI Classes!). The
Club Class covers a wide range of gliders, from Astir, Cirrus over
Libelle, LS-1 and ASW-15 to ASW-19. Even Double-Seaters like Twin or
ASK-21 take part in the Club Class from time to time.
On the other hand, I have not heard anyone thinking of buying a PW-5
yet because (at least here in Germany) an old ASW-15 or Cirrus is much
cheaper than a new PW-5. And, of course, it provides much better
performances. Buying a PW-5 would be a step (or two) back for most
German pilots, I guess.
>And frankly, 32:1 (PW-5) vs. 21:1 (1-26) makes a HUGE difference in
>reaching the next thermal or not. 38:1 (ASW-15) vs. 32:1 (PW-5, Russia,
>L-33,1-36, Silent,...), a few bugs' worth, just gives you more speed.
That depends on the wheather. Here in Germany one does not have the
slightest chance flying a Ka-6E (comparable to PW-5) against a plastic
glider. We can compare these planes very well because they both belong
to the Club Class and take part in tournaments quite often. So why
buying the inferior airplane for the higher prize?
To me this question seems to depend on the location of the speaker. I
know many german glider pilots, and noone of them I was talking to
about the World Class could imagine to fly a glider as "bad" as the
Ka-6 again. Especially if he had to buy it first.
And buying this inferior plane just because of a "World Class" that is
to come (or not) is a little bit nonsense. In my opinion, of course.
Let's wait and see. It will take a lot of of time to establish the
world class (an a lot of gliders sold, of course). I wonder if it is
ever going to be a success...
At least not in the country withe the most glider pilots, Germany.
>--John H. Campbell
>Camp...@mscd.edu
Bruce Hoult
Jean-Marie Clément <j...@iol.it> writes:
> Unless you are an organization which is FORCED to participate to the World Class Games, there
> is strictly no reason to buy such a glider. Why pay at to-day's price the performance of 30
> years ago ? For half of the cost a PW5, you can get an excellent standard class 15 years old
> with much better speed and penetration capability (L/D alone does not mean anything).
Aren't people complaining about the lack of new glider pilots?
The supply of ASW-15's and 19's and Libelle's and Cirruses and so forth is strictly
limited. There is simply no sibstitute for building new aircraft, if the sport is
to expand.
> Someone wrote on the Net: why should we rebuilt a fiberglass Ka8 ? That's the point!
Ka6E, more like. Which is a perfectly fine X-country machine.
-- Bruce
Ian Strachan
In article <29178...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz>, Bruce Hoult
<Br...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz> writes
>Ka6E, more like. Which is a perfectly fine X-country machine.
A 15 metre PW5 might be a goer .....
--
Ian
Guenther Seemann
>> Someone wrote on the Net: why should we rebuilt a fiberglass Ka8 ? That's the
>>point!
>Ka6E, more like. Which is a perfectly fine X-country machine.
Depending on the country. Speaking for the German situation (Andreas did it
too), nobody is considering the Ka6e as a fine x-country machine any longer
(not to say perfectly). It is an oldtimer with an excellent performance
regarding the time of contruction. Ka6's, even the E-version, are the machines
for the early solo pilot these days in Germany.
From watching the postings I learned that the Ka6's fill in a different role
in NZ. The penetration of the market with the factory new stuff seems to be a
bit difficult because of transport and import costs. In this case a PW-5 makes
probably more sense.
- Guenther
-------------------------------------------
Guenther Seemann ---+---
|
-----------(.)-----------
LS6-a, D-0616, HG
e-mail: S...@WZL-MTQ1.WZL.RWTH-AACHEN.DE
Larry D. Goddard
Ian Strachan (I...@ukiws.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <29178...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz>, Bruce Hoult
: <Br...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz> writes
: >Ka6E, more like. Which is a perfectly fine X-country machine.
: A 15 metre PW5 might be a goer .....
: --
: Ian
With its current small-ish wingspan, I guess the new version would be
called the PW15? ;-)
Larry Goddard
Ian Strachan
In article <4q3nnu$1...@crl14.crl.com>, "Larry D. Goddard"
<lar...@crl.com> writes
>I guess the new version would be
>called the PW15? ;-)
What a good idea.
It would soar well in weak lift, have a good L/D ("there is no
substitute for span"), have a big cockpit, and could be a modern
replacement for the K6. But with glass performance.
--
Ian Strachan
Bert Willing
Andreas Maurer wrote:
> On the other hand: Especially here in Germany there is almost noone
> even thinking about buying a Worls Class glider, simply because an
> "old" ASW-15 or LS-1 flies much better (hmmm...at least, ist has a
> better glide ratio) for the same amount of money.
> And what I have seen (perhaps it was not the best PW-5) was a glider
> that was finished much worse than most of the 20 year old ASW's...
I think that is exactly the point, at least in the German "tradition":
If I want to buy a glider, I have a certain amount of money. And for
this money I want to have the highest possible L/D - this number will
decide on many flights whether I can cross the valley/reach the next
lift/ make the final glide to the airfield. If I can have an Open
Cirrus for US$ 15000 with an L/D of 40+, why should I opt for a new
ship with last century's performance? Just to fly a competition once a
while? And the rest of the season?
It doesn't make much sense to me, this World Class. Maybe it's
different for the US where people have different points of view on
soaring.
Nice flights
Bert
BHURNI
In article <29178...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz>, Br...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz
(Bruce Hoult) writes:
>Aren't people complaining about the lack of new glider pilots?
>
>
That is the point which all of the naye-sayers are missing. The
PW-5/Ka-6/1-26 offer special options for the neophyte and the individual
who is setting his own standards of achievement. Aircraft which are
comparatively easy to fly encourage new people to stay in the sport.
Attributes can be found which should be promoted by every soaring
pilot(PW-5 is new with one-design competition potential, Ka-6 offers FAI
badge capabilities and very good weak thermal capability, and the 1-26
offers a wide range of challenges because of a very sophisticated records,
achievement, and competiton program through the 1-26 Association), .
The negativism being thrown at the PW-5 are exactly the reasons that new
soaring pilots become quickly disenchanted with the game. The experienced
pilots are coming across as a bunch of egotistical jerks who judge
everyone else be the game that they are playing. They fail to remember
that they too were once enamored with much lower performance, easier to
fly aircraft. Let's start using our verbal and writing skills to
encourage--not discourage.
A glider is a glider whether low-performance or high-performance. The
thrill of unpowered flight should be available to all, not just the
skilled, the competitive, or the financially set pilots. The PW-5 should
be encouraged in your clubs as a great alternative as a first glider.
Bob Hurni
Pres., 1-26 Association
David Woodhouse
>The negativism being thrown at the PW-5 are exactly the reasons that new
>soaring pilots become quickly disenchanted with the game. The experienced
>pilots are coming across as a bunch of egotistical jerks who judge
>everyone else be the game that they are playing. They fail to remember
>that they too were once enamored with much lower performance, easier to
>fly aircraft. Let's start using our verbal and writing skills to
>encourage--not discourage.
>Bob Hurni
>Pres., 1-26 Association
I can only repeat my earlier message...
UNTIL you have flown one, how can you say anything negative or
positive about the PW-5?
Find one and fly it. Research the basis of the World Class Glider
Competition and try to understand this very fine aircraft within those
terms of reference!
David
Richard Brisbourne
In article <31C65D...@lc.dmx.epfl.ch>, Bert Willing
<Bert.W...@lc.dmx.epfl.ch> writes
>I have a certain amount of money. And for
>this money I want to have the highest possible L/D - this number will
>decide on many flights whether I can cross the valley/reach the next
>lift/ make the final glide to the airfield. If I can have an Open
>Cirrus for US$ 15000 with an L/D of 40+, why should I opt for a new
>ship with last century's performance? Just to fly a competition once a
>while? And the rest of the season?
>
to buy Open Cirruses as club aircraft? And accept the higher maintenence
bills? Higher repair costs when damaged? Complications of getting
spares? Non-standardisation because when someone writes one off you
can't get another Open Cirrus to replace it?
All these are reasons why clubs buy new aircraft, be they Ventus's,
Astirs or K8's.
My belief is that most PW5s outside the US will be bought by clubs, and
that clubs that own PW5s will find they are good moneyspinners because
they will do lots of hours. There is a lot of talk elsewhere in this
newsgroup about the high cost of gliding, all written from the point of
view of the private owner, just as most of this thread is written from
the point of view of the private owner.
The way we'll get the young people we need into gliding is by offering
good, low cost, hourly charged flying, in machines capable of reasonable
(ie: Ka6E level) XC soaring. You don't _need_ $40,000 to be a
successful glider pilot, you don't even _need_ $15,000, just enough
disposable income to cover the launch and soaring fees. And if you're
20 years old, that probably is all you do have (it's all I had). If we
can't offer this the punters will go hang-gliding, or just go dig the
garden.
--
Richard Brisbourne | | |
+--+- -Soar the big sky- +--+- +--+-
Bury, Lancs,UK | | |
Bill King
Andreas Maurer wrote:
>
> Tor Olav Steine <t...@sn.no> wrote:
>
> >I do not think it is honest to compare yesterdays hot ships with a brand new
> >competition glider. Apples should be compared to apples. What does a new ASW
> >24 cost? Or LS 8,Discus WL? Those should be compared with the PW-5 pricewise.
> >As for performance: all gliders in World Class have equvivalent performance.
> Of course you are absolutely right... ;-))
>
> even thinking about buying a Worls Class glider, simply because an
> "old" ASW-15 or LS-1 flies much better (hmmm...at least, ist has a
> better glide ratio) for the same amount of money.
> And what I have seen (perhaps it was not the best PW-5) was a glider
> that was finished much worse than most of the 20 year old ASW's...
>
> we'll see, if this class is successfull...
> At least in Germany, as much as I know, the World Class is not going
> to be successfull in the close future.
>
> Andreas
Andreas has very good points. If I am going to put it together each
time I fly it, it better have at least 40:1 to justify the effort! It
sure is nice to untie you glider and pull it to the flight line and
still get 30:1.
Unless you have your heart set on competing in WC there are other
gliders available then the PW-5. With better availablity dates I might
add.
Eagle Data
In article <4pv7jm$h...@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>, uq...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
(Andreas Maurer) writes:
>On the other hand: Especially here in Germany there is almost noone
>even thinking about buying a Worls Class glider, simply because an
>"old" ASW-15 or LS-1 flies much better (hmmm...at least, ist has a
>better glide ratio) for the same amount of money.
>And what I have seen (perhaps it was not the best PW-5) was a glider
>that was finished much worse than most of the 20 year old ASW's...
>
>Let's see how many World Class gliders are going to be sold, then
>we'll see, if this class is successfull...
>At least in Germany, as much as I know, the World Class is not going
>to be successfull in the close future.
>
>Andreas
I have noticed that the only postings you ever do to this newgroup are to
throw water on a fire. The last one to come to mind was the financial
status of DG. Do you ever have anything good or positive to add to the
soaring community? The world class will be successful regardless of
whether you are personnally involved or not and regardless of your
negative opinions.
John Duprey
ASW 24
I Johnston
Andreas Maurer (uq...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de) wrote:
: On the other hand: Especially here in Germany there is almost noone
: even thinking about buying a Worls Class glider, simply because an
: "old" ASW-15 or LS-1 flies much better (hmmm...at least, ist has a
: better glide ratio) for the same amount of money.
: ...
: At least in Germany, as much as I know, the World Class is not going
: to be successfull in the close future.
My impression - and it's no more than that - is that enthusiasm for
PW-5's is coming mainly from countries with large ageing fleets of
gliders. In New Zealand, for example, the PW-5 seems to be mainly a
replacement for Ka6's and in the US for Schweitzer 1-26's.
From those points of view it seems a reasonable decision, though I
wonder how many pilots really will participate in the one design
competitions, particularly if the higher ranking pilots choose to stay
with higher performance. However I hope the PW-5 enthusiasts would agree
that in countries where the lower end club ships are Astirs and Juniors
and the higher ends are Pegases, Disci and DG-300's the decision to
spend such a large amount of money on comparatively poor performance is
not going to be automatic.
To be perfectly honest, if my club chose to buy a PW-5 instead of a good
second-hand Pegase, I would be mightily peeved.
Ian
Bruce Hoult
Ian Strachan <I...@ukiws.demon.co.uk> writes:
> In article <29178...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz>, Bruce Hoult
> <Br...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz> writes
>
> >Ka6E, more like. Which is a perfectly fine X-country machine.
>
> A 15 metre PW5 might be a goer .....
I don't see why.
The PW5 is already an excellent thermalling machine. On my 2nd flight in
one, I outclimbed a NZ club class champion in his Ka6E, and I'm sure
not a great pilot. Likewise, the sink rate in slow, straight ahead flight
is fine.
More span (which means less induced drag at low speed/high AOA) is not
what the PW5 needs.
The problem with the PW5 is that it's too much of a blunt arrow for high
speed running, and it rapidly falls behind either the K6 or the likes of
the Club Libelle (or, I assume, the Club Astir) at more than 70 knots.
More span would only hurt at speed.
What the PW-5 needs is water :-)
-- Bruce
Oma Nimi
Bob Hurni hit right on spot with his reply to all people bashing PW-5.
It's a beginners glider, not for "old" racing pilots. And it is true that
ASW-15 etc. are about the same price, but they are much more difficult to fly
(poor ailerons on start, poor brakes, spins easily...)
Regs, Jyrki
Bert Willing
Strange kind comment, John. If DG has (had) serious financial
problems, it might be a problem to many owners, and it is shurely a
drawback to soaring. So do you want to blame the messager or the
message?!
And if Andreas states that he doesn't think the WC will be a success
(relativating this by "as far as I know") you may disagree. But if you
simply replique that it WILL be a success, you should at least watch
your tone in your thread.
Bert
Bert Willing
Richard Brisbourne wrote:
>
> In article <31C65D...@lc.dmx.epfl.ch>, Bert Willing
> <Bert.W...@lc.dmx.epfl.ch> writes
> OK, but supposing you were a member of a club committee, are you going
> to buy Open Cirruses as club aircraft? And accept the higher maintenence
> bills?
Why are they higher?
>Higher repair costs when damaged?
Why are they higher?
> Complications of getting
> spares? Non-standardisation because when someone writes one off you
> can't get another Open Cirrus to replace it?
That's true.
>
> All these are reasons why clubs buy new aircraft, be they Ventus's,
> Astirs or K8's.
>
K8's are to my mind not "brand new" ...
> My belief is that most PW5s outside the US will be bought by clubs, and
> that clubs that own PW5s will find they are good moneyspinners because
> they will do lots of hours. There is a lot of talk elsewhere in this
> newsgroup about the high cost of gliding, all written from the point of
> view of the private owner, just as most of this thread is written from
> the point of view of the private owner.
>
I'll agree with lowering the cost for youngsters - hadn't my club done
this I wouldn't have started at the age of 16 (and during the last 16
years I never owned a ship).
But a few years ago Schleicher did a thing quite similiar to this PW5
- they called it ASK23. Rather low performance, non-retractable, easy
to fly, somewhat a glass K8.
And now try to find those k23 bought by clubs - it's a hard job. The
reason is that there are so many used ships on the market here in
Germany (ok, over there in Germany ...) with a higher
performance/price ratio so that many club committees (I also have been
member of one) decide to buy a used one. And: Although they are used,
they actually don't loose on value. If you bought a Standard Cirrus 12
years ago for DM 30k, you'll sell it today for DM 28-30k. And as
assurance is proportional to the actual value, the used ship is better
off.
And I also think that many of these gliders are quite easy to fly, too
(ASW15, Astir, Libelle etc).
In terms of competition, at least in Germany there is no big need for
the World Class as we have what is called a Club Class where you can
compete on a national level with any glider from a K6 level on. Very
few Germans will buy a PW5 just to participate in another competition.
In total, all these points add up to my feeling (which can be wrong,
of course) that the WC and PW5 might not be a big success in Germany.
I agree that in the US the habits and traditions are very different to
Europe and that a PW5 will make sense over there.
Greetings
Bert
Gary Osoba
Bruce Hoult says, regarding the Ka-6:
"When I say that it is a perfectly fine X-country machine, I don't mean
that it
will outperform a discus on a good day. I mean that it can be
sucessfully flown
cross country.
Actually, on very poor days, they sometimes seem to be the only machine
in which
you *can* fly cross country."
The Kansas Soaring Association (KSA) hosts one of the longest running
annual open distance contests... the Kowbell Klassic, now well into its
fourth decade. No handicap, single day, fly any direction you want, in
whatever you want, as far as you can. In 1994, we experienced rather
weak conditions, and the lone Ka-6 which was entered outflew all of the
15m (and larger span entries) finishing with a distance of 99 miles.
Best 1-26 distance (good weak condition glider) flew 26 miles.
The Ka-6 would have won the competition had it not been outflown by the
homebuilt Carbon Dragon prototype, which flew just under 200 miles...
twice as far.
Last year, 1995, we had frontal passage during the contest day with big
development later on... much stronger conditions and a bit too strong
for those not getting off early. An ASW 20L (in 15m configuration) won
with a straight line distance of 253 miles (if memory serves) flying
along the frontal line and another 15m ship came in a very close second
flying behind the front into Colorado. The Carbon Dragon, at only 2
lbs.sq.ft., posted a 240 mile 3rd place straight line flight, but
actually flew the longest distance of the contest at 293 miles staying
30-50 miles in front of the best lift lines. Since the Carbon Dragon is
Part 103 and non-registered as an unpowered ultralight, a densely
populated area and a TCA had to be circumvented costing more than 50
miles in straight line distance. Otherwise, it would have won again in
dramatically different conditions.
Not only can Ka-6's and 8's, PW-5's and other lightly loaded designs
provide enjoyable XC experiences, I am convinced that what will come out
of current technique explorations and developments in very light designs
will significantly alter soaring in the 21st century. This was, in part,
thematic during my presentation at Huntsville which was solicited and
introduced by Paul Schweizer.
This Labor Day, at Tehachapi CA, the SHA (an SSA division) will host
another fine western workshop. This theme will be explored further, as
arrranged by noted Aerodynamicist Bruce Carmichael. The event will be
culminated with a banquet presentation by Dr. Paul MacReady, America's
first World Soaring champion, etc., etc., and long-time proponent of
light soaring configurations. Definitely worth attending.
Best Regards,
Gary Osoba
Bill King
Eagle Data wrote:
>
> In article <4pv7jm$h...@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>, uq...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
> (Andreas Maurer) writes:
>
> >even thinking about buying a Worls Class glider, simply because an
> >"old" ASW-15 or LS-1 flies much better (hmmm...at least, ist has a
> >better glide ratio) for the same amount of money.
> >that was finished much worse than most of the 20 year old ASW's...
> >
> >Let's see how many World Class gliders are going to be sold, then
> >we'll see, if this class is successfull...
> >to be successfull in the close future.
> >
>
> I have noticed that the only postings you ever do to this newgroup are to
> throw water on a fire. The last one to come to mind was the financial
> status of DG. Do you ever have anything good or positive to add to the
> soaring community? The world class will be successful regardless of
> whether you are personnally involved or not and regardless of your
> negative opinions.
>
> John Duprey
> ASW 24
This pissing contest must not be private as John would not have posted it to the
new group. John, people have their opions just like you. Personally I wish the
WC group well however the concept goes against my free market beliefs. I think
that there would have been more support if they did not limit the class to a pod
and boom machine even though it appears to be a good flying glider.
So when do you plan on selling your ASW 24 and getting a PW-5? The standard
class market could use another good ship.
Bill King (WF)
Remember when there is a requirement, it will be filled. No requirement for new
soaring pilots to go XC, no reason to do it. If I recall, most Euorpean clubs
require XC training and how to rig and derig a glider. Seems they have a lot of XC
pilots wanting to go XC.
Bruce Hoult
S...@WZL-MTQ1.WZL.RWTH-AACHEN.DE (Guenther Seemann) writes:
> In article <29178...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz> Br...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz (Bruce Hoult) writes:
>
> >> Someone wrote on the Net: why should we rebuilt a fiberglass Ka8 ? That's the
> >>point!
>
> >Ka6E, more like. Which is a perfectly fine X-country machine.
>
> Depending on the country. Speaking for the German situation (Andreas did it
> too), nobody is considering the Ka6e as a fine x-country machine any longer
> (not to say perfectly). It is an oldtimer with an excellent performance
> regarding the time of contruction. Ka6's, even the E-version, are the machines
> for the early solo pilot these days in Germany.
As they are here in New Zealand.
When I say that it is a perfectly fine X-country machine, I don't mean that it
will outperform a discus on a good day. I mean that it can be sucessfully flown
cross country.
Actually, on very poor days, they sometimes seem to be the only machine in which
you *can* fly cross country.
> From watching the postings I learned that the Ka6's fill in a different role
> in NZ. The penetration of the market with the factory new stuff seems to be a
> bit difficult because of transport and import costs. In this case a PW-5 makes
> probably more sense.
The main attraction of the Ka6 here is that they have (effectively) their own
single-design racing class. The PW5's are currently being put in the same
class, and from the first year's results, they appear to be about on a par.
-- Bruce
Wayne Mapp
In article <4q61t5$g...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>, ia...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk (I Johnston) says:
>
>Andreas Maurer (uq...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de) wrote:
>
>: On the other hand: Especially here in Germany there is almost noone
>: even thinking about buying a Worls Class glider, simply because an
>: "old" ASW-15 or LS-1 flies much better (hmmm...at least, ist has a
>: better glide ratio) for the same amount of money.
>: At least in Germany, as much as I know, the World Class is not going
>: to be successfull in the close future.
>
>PW-5's is coming mainly from countries with large ageing fleets of
>gliders. In New Zealand, for example, the PW-5 seems to be mainly a
>replacement for Ka6's and in the US for Schweitzer 1-26's.
>
>From those points of view it seems a reasonable decision, though I
>wonder how many pilots really will participate in the one design
>competitions, particularly if the higher ranking pilots choose to stay
>with higher performance. However I hope the PW-5 enthusiasts would agree
>that in countries where the lower end club ships are Astirs and Juniors
>and the higher ends are Pegases, Disci and DG-300's the decision to
>spend such a large amount of money on comparatively poor performance is
>not going to be automatic.
>
>To be perfectly honest, if my club chose to buy a PW-5 instead of a good
>second-hand Pegase, I would be mightily peeved.
>
>Ian
>
>
I have flown in UK, Australia and NZ. My solo experience is in aircraft ranging from KA6 to LS4. In
NZ I have flown in a variety of clubs. The NZ fleet is no older than in UK
or Australia. The PW5 which I have flown for about 2 hrs is ideal for early solo pilots
and is a good cheap replacement for KA6. It is the ideal Sunday afternoon club
glider that does not impose too many demands on pilots (no retrac, easy
ground handling, no flying vices). It just as good as a SZD 50 Junior which
I have about 20 hours on. Junior is also a lot more expensive.
The higher performance machines mentioned by various people are old (15 years)
and more difficult to fly. They are not directly comparable to PW5. The PW5 is new
with all the advantages that new gear has, especially for a club. I agree it is not the
aircraft for the private owner who will want cheaper (KA6e) or more performance at
same cost as PW5 (eg ASW 15, Cirus, Kestrel etc). Wealthy private owners will always
want the very latest and that is desirable since it pushes innovation. Similarly clubs and schools
should have high end machines for the better pilots.
As far as competitions go it would seem to be like the Laser sailing class. There might be
faster sailing classes around, but the Laser is simple, cheap, worldwide and has competitve one
class competition in which all yachts are virtually identical. Same as PW5 once numbers build up;
and they are. I guess there will be 200 to 300 within 3 years. It will be easy to have guenuine one
class competitions where pilot skill will be the only variable rather than the current combination
of pilot skill and newest high tech machine.
Regards Wayne Mapp
I Johnston
David Woodhouse (wo...@carolian.com) wrote:
: UNTIL you have flown one, how can you say anything negative or
: positive about the PW-5?
Because its flight performance is only a minor part of the deal. There
already exist gliders with beautifully harmonised controls and 33:1
glide angles - so why isn't the Ka6E revitalizing soaring worldwide? I -
and I am sure most of the skeptics - accept quite happily that it's
comfortable, safe, well designed and a joy to fly.
Whether a glider with deliberately poor performance is going to
boost the sport because of possible world competitions in the
future is a different matter altogether.
What I can say (again) without having flown one is that if my club spent
that much money on that litle glider the members would erupt.
Ian
Andreas Maurer
eagl...@aol.com (Eagle Data) wrote:
>I have noticed that the only postings you ever do to this newgroup are to
>throw water on a fire. The last one to come to mind was the financial
>status of DG. Do you ever have anything good or positive to add to the
>soaring community? The world class will be successful regardless of
>whether you are personnally involved or not and regardless of your
>negative opinions.
OK.
Listen to me:
- Everyone in the world will soon be flying in the World Class.
- Any Club in Germany will soon have at least two PW-5's.
- There will be dozens of contests of the World Class all over the
world next year.
- Noone will ever want to fly an LS-4 or better anymore.
Does that sound as positive as you want it to be?
At least it's according to your opinion.
BTW: Have you ever noticed your kind tone?
>John Duprey
>ASW 24
Andreas Maurer
ASW-20L 7Z
I Johnston
Richard Brisbourne (Ric...@rbris.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: OK, but supposing you were a member of a club committee, are you going
: to buy Open Cirruses as club aircraft? And accept the higher maintenence
: bills? Higher repair costs when damaged? Complications of getting
: spares? Non-standardisation because when someone writes one off you
: can't get another Open Cirrus to replace it?
: All these are reasons why clubs buy new aircraft, be they Ventus's,
: Astirs or K8's.
On the other hand, I have heard of clubs - near York, even - who have
fleets of Blaniks, K13's, Ka8's, Ka6's and Astirs, and who don't seem
to be in a desperate hurry to unload them just because they aren't made
any more. Sure, the big boys up the road can afford new Disci, for
example, but would selling the entire SS fleet above to buy a single
PW-5 be such an advantage?
I'm not knocking the idea of good cheap SS gliders for clubs. I'm just
not persuaded myself that there is much reason for a club to buy a PW-5
rather than a Junior, say.
Ian
John Bojack
Yes
See next listing, not in this thread......
"ASW19 for Sale"
You'd be much better off.
Martin Gregory
ia...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk (I Johnston) writes:
> I'm not knocking the idea of good cheap SS gliders for clubs. I'm just
> not persuaded myself that there is much reason for a club to buy a PW-5
> rather than a Junior, say.
The reason is actually pretty obvious.
You can buy a Junior and have a nice club XC machine. Your average &
early XC people will like it. Your competitive people are not going
to be interested though - you have to fly Sports and deal with all
that handicapping hassle & frustration of not being able to afford a
better glider.
Or, for similar money you can buy a similar performance PW5 and have a
nice club XC machine which your competitive memebers can also use in
_real_ competition: pilot vs pilot not pocket vs pocket.
In other words, for similar money you get twice the glider: a glider
that two sectors of your club can use instead of one.
Cheers,
Martin.
Christian Husvik TFN (Sommerstudent fra 17.06 til 13.09.96)
In article <4pskms$b...@mikasa.iol.it>, "Jean-Marie Clément" <j...@iol.it> writes:
|> (...)
|> Someone wrote on the Net: why should we rebuilt a fiberglass Ka8 ? (...)
Because the old wood and canavas Ka8's eventually will get used up? There *will*
be a need for a Ka8 or equvalent also in the future, as a first single seater for
student pilots who have gone solo. I think the PW-5 will serve that purpose quite
well.
The PW-5 is also well suitet for a pilot's first outlandings, because of it's low
weight and stalling-speed, and the ease at wich it is assembled and disassembled.
Christian Husvik 8-)
Toby Wright
In article <r8g27qq7...@asc.sps.mot.com>, Martin Gregory
<mgre...@asc.sps.mot.com> writes
>
>The reason is actually pretty obvious.
>
>You can buy a Junior and have a nice club XC machine. Your average &
>early XC people will like it. Your competitive people are not going
>to be interested though - you have to fly Sports and deal with all
>that handicapping hassle & frustration of not being able to afford a
>better glider.
>
>Or, for similar money you can buy a similar performance PW5 and have a
>nice club XC machine which your competitive memebers can also use in
>_real_ competition: pilot vs pilot not pocket vs pocket.
>
>In other words, for similar money you get twice the glider: a glider
>that two sectors of your club can use instead of one.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Martin.
thats fine in principle, but...
I dont know of a club yet, where a glider which is suitable for comps,
or early solo (whatever, local soaring), is used satisfactorily by both
interested parties.
ie.. if its going to be used for xcountry, then the local pilots moan
they an never get in it, and how come they are paying for a glider they
cant fly.
if its used for local soaring the x country pilots moan its being
wasted, and not being used for what it was bought for.
this stuff about pocket vs pocket is crap anyway..
a half decent 19 or pegase will keep up with a discus on most days in
the uk. Its the pilot that counts.
and if you dont believe that look at gransden lodge regionals last year
where an shk, a wooden glider, yes wooden, (and i used to own 1), beat
all teh discus and such like, over a 10 day comp, in some of the best uk
conditions weve ever had.
I also believe if my club bought a pw5 instead of an old 19 or peagse,
then the comitee would be shot, or I'd be at another club. Thankfully,
my club isnt that stupid.
Toby; in the rain :( _______ at work;
at the Soaring Centre, UK | etl.e...@memo.ericsson.se
Mini-Nimbus C 169 / \
---------------------------------(_ _)-----------------------------------
Toby Wright
In article <4qbpqr$b...@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>, Andreas Maurer
<uq...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> writes
>eagl...@aol.com (Eagle Data) wrote:
>
>
>
>>I have noticed that the only postings you ever do to this newgroup are to
>>throw water on a fire. The last one to come to mind was the financial
>>status of DG. Do you ever have anything good or positive to add to the
>>soaring community? The world class will be successful regardless of
>>whether you are personnally involved or not and regardless of your
>>negative opinions.
>OK.
>Listen to me:
>- Everyone in the world will soon be flying in the World Class.
>- Any Club in Germany will soon have at least two PW-5's.
>- There will be dozens of contests of the World Class all over the
>world next year.
>- Noone will ever want to fly an LS-4 or better anymore.
>
>
the euro 96 <g>
Toby; in the sun :) _______ at work;
John Whiting
In article: <4qbdc2$7...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> ia...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk (I
Johnston) writes:
snip
>
> Whether a glider with deliberately poor performance is going to
> boost the sport because of possible world competitions in the
> future is a different matter altogether.
>
> What I can say (again) without having flown one is that if my club spent
> that much money on that litle glider the members would erupt.
>
> Ian
>
How many clubs have sacred cows in the hanger that only the experianced
pilots ( who generally have their own gliders) can fly. What a club needs
is something easy to fly, easy to field land and easy to retrieve. Most of
the so called cheap old standard class (Cirrus, libelle etc) you wouldn't
let a low hours pilot near. You can go XC after the bronze badge +
endorsement in the UK (min aprox 10-15 hours P1) and get a silver in 5 more.
Where do these club pilots go next? World class has a lot to offer.
If the PW5 span was increased to 15m and you get rid of the pod and boom
design as some have suggested then you might get 40:1 but it would weigh
500lb and cost twice as much!
Clubs need cheap aircraft which lots of people can fly. You can charge 9.00
per hour for a K8 which anybody can fly. Can you charge 90.00 per hour for
a Discus which after all costs 10 times as much? I think not. How many
regular club members would actually fly it XC ?.
If we are to get new people into the sport then clubs have to provide
afordable gliders that people have a real chance of flying. This seems to be
what the World class is offering and our club is looking seriously at
getting one.
If my club spent that much money on a big glider that most of the
members wouldn't be able to fly, then the members would erupt!
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| John Whiting EMail jo...@bga3997.demon.co.uk
|
| Shenington Gliding Club. UK.
Probably the fastest growing club in the UK.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Hoult
ia...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk (I Johnston) writes:
> David Woodhouse (wo...@carolian.com) wrote:
>
> : UNTIL you have flown one, how can you say anything negative or
> : positive about the PW-5?
>
> Because its flight performance is only a minor part of the deal. There
> already exist gliders with beautifully harmonised controls and 33:1
> glide angles - so why isn't the Ka6E revitalizing soaring worldwide? I -
> and I am sure most of the skeptics - accept quite happily that it's
> comfortable, safe, well designed and a joy to fly.
There's just one small problem: they don't make Ka6E's any more. Demand
for them (in this country at least) is such that the price of these 25
year-old gliders has been increasing rapidly in recent years, and they
are now not all that much cheaper than a PW-5.
But regardless of price or performance, you simply can't grow the sport
with a glider that isn't made any more.
-- Bruce
Roy Edwards
Toby Wright <to...@wrightt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I dont know of a club yet, where a glider which is suitable for comps,
>or early solo (whatever, local soaring), is used satisfactorily by both
>interested parties.
Come and fly with the Tauranga Club with their two PW5's
>I also believe if my club bought a pw5 instead of an old 19 or peagse,
>then the comitee would be shot,
Guess being one eyed is part of the freedom of speech. Not much use
for anything else!
Roy
Guenther Seemann
>There's just one small problem: they don't make Ka6E's any more. Demand
>for them (in this country at least) is such that the price of these 25
>year-old gliders has been increasing rapidly in recent years, and they
>are now not all that much cheaper than a PW-5.
Oh, could this be the market gap that I'm searching for ;-)
What would you pay for a Ka6, Ka6E if delivered to, say Auckland or
Christchurch?
- Guenther
-------------------------------------------
Guenther Seemann ---+---
|
-----------(.)-----------
LS6-a, D-0616, HG
e-mail: S...@WZL-MTQ1.WZL.RWTH-AACHEN.DE
Michael Gerhard Huber
:
: The PW-5 is also well suitet for a pilot's first outlandings, because of it's low
: weight and stalling-speed, and the ease at wich it is assembled and disassembled.
Maybe thats the point.
If you compare a PW5 to an open Cirrus, try to assemble
both planes with only two persons.
And compare the maintenance work that has tobe done on a Ka6 and on a
modern fibre-glass glider.
Michael
--
Michael Gerhard Huber alias mi...@sbox.tu-graz.ac.at
I Johnston
Martin Gregory (mgre...@asc.sps.mot.com) wrote:
: ia...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk (I Johnston) writes:
: > I'm not knocking the idea of good cheap SS gliders for clubs. I'm just
: > not persuaded myself that there is much reason for a club to buy a PW-5
: > rather than a Junior, say.
: Or, for similar money you can buy a similar performance PW5 and have a
: nice club XC machine which your competitive memebers can also use in
: _real_ competition: pilot vs pilot not pocket vs pocket.
I am yet to be convinced that the competitive members of my club would
rather fly a club PW-5 rather than a club DG-300 in a competition.
Basically it hangs on who flies the things. If the Renners, Davis's and
Spreckleys of this world can be persuaded to fly them I am sure it will
be a success. If they stick with their Disci, Nimbi and ASW-22's then
the PW-5 will have been one of many good ideas.
Ian
Guenther Seemann
In article <385355...@bga3997.demon.co.uk> John Whiting <jo...@bga3997.demon.co.uk> writes:
>In article: <4qbdc2$7...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> ia...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk (I
>Johnston) writes:
>> What I can say (again) without having flown one is that if my club spent
>> that much money on that litle glider the members would erupt.
>How many clubs have sacred cows in the hanger that only the experianced
>pilots ( who generally have their own gliders) can fly. What a club needs
>is something easy to fly, easy to field land and easy to retrieve.
In our club the Discus fits very well in this role (not the sacred cow but
everyones sailplane). Of course the Discus is expensive and this might be the
decisive criterion for a club to buy two PW-5's instead of one Discus.
>If my club spent that much money on a big glider that most of the
>members wouldn't be able to fly, then the members would erupt!
You should seriously consider whether your club training is good enough, if
you claim a Discus would be difficult to fly (even XC). You should know that
in other clubs ALL solo pilots are able to fly safely a Discus (and I assume
in the Club where Ian flies too) and this could eventually be the reason why
they prefer a Discus over a PW-5.
I do wish the World Class success, but it would be unfair to pretend that a
PW-5 would be the safer sailplane.
Rich Carr
Guenther Seemann (S...@WZL-MTQ1.WZL.RWTH-AACHEN.DE) wrote:
: You should seriously consider whether your club training is good enough, if
: in other clubs ALL solo pilots are able to fly safely a Discus (and I assume
: in the Club where Ian flies too) and this could eventually be the reason why
: they prefer a Discus over a PW-5.
: I do wish the World Class success, but it would be unfair to pretend that a
: PW-5 would be the safer sailplane.
Safety isn't the only reason the PW-5 may be more accessible to club
members than a Discus. A glider that costs half as much to replace is
likely (rightly or wrongly) to have lower experience requirements placed
on it by the club. These requirements may be established by negotiation
between the club and its insurance company, and they may be ridiculously
high for the more expensive glider, at least from the point of view of
the capable but low-time pilot.
- Rich Carr
Bert Willing
Guenther Seemann wrote:
>
> In article ... and so on ...
>> What a club needs
> >is something easy to fly, easy to field land and easy to retrieve.
>
> In our club the Discus fits very well in this role (not the sacred cow but everyones sailplane).
> enough, if you claim a Discus would be difficult to fly (even XC).
This a somewhat critical point, to which I agree.
It was stated here several times that beginners have to have gliders
which are simple to handle to make them go xc.
I have the point of view that if people don't want to go XC with a
Discus, Pegase, ASW 19 or similar ships (which are REALLY easy to
fly), there should be a big problem with the instruction scheme.
I also have started to go XC sometime, and I know that the barrier
most people have is a psychological one. As an instructor, you have to
convince them that 1.) there lifts outside the airport region, and
that 2.) you can land this thing safely on a field if 1.) does not
hold. YOU CANNOT SHOW THIS ON THE BLACKBOARD !
Every club which has a reasonable two-seater (say Twin or alike)
should be able to perform a reasonable XC training. That is, you take
this guy as PIC with the instructor (or even an experienced pilot if
the PIC is licenced) behind, and then you go XC. Forget about 50 km
badges in this context ... In our club we insisted on 2 flights like
this for EVERYBODY who wanted to go XC or get his licence. Distances
were dependend on the weather conditions in northern Germany 150 - 450
km. AND: One of these flights had to be a field landing. Not simulated
or planned, just the normal thing which happens when the day is
finished and there are still some km's left over.
People who run through this training
- knew what it is like to leave the airport regoin
- knew what tactics means
- knew that they are able to find other lifts, even in sometimes
shitty conditions
- knew that they were able (and that they have been affirmatively been
checked on) to do a safe field landing.
- WHERE HOT to do the next XC
- would have been VERY UPSET if the committe had bought a PW5 instead
of a second hand ASW15/Libelle/and so on.
If you want to overcome people's fear of going alone XC - give them a
good training instead of a poor performance glider!! Even as an
instructor, it's more fun for me to do XC training once a while
instead of go-arounds all the time.
Happy landings
Bert
Andreas Maurer
Toby Wright <to...@wrightt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>- Any Club in Germany will soon have at least two PW-5's.
>>- There will be dozens of contests of the World Class all over the
>>world next year.
>>- Noone will ever want to fly an LS-4 or better anymore.
>>
>>
>Andreas, stop it, at this rate you'll be saying Germany are going to win
>the euro 96 <g>
Of course they will.
Any doubts?
<VBG>
Bye
Andreas
Phil Swallow
for this plane - it is already selling in certain countries - NZ notably
- anyone know whether it has caught on elsewhere?
Also, I think a one-design concept is great for pitching pilot against
pilot, skill against skill, judgment against judgment.
However...
I think one of the features which mitigates strongly against the PW5 is
its aesthetic design - the pregnant guppy. Mail vanity is a powerful
force in the world (ask any woman!) or, perhaps more to the point, in the
market-place. It should not be underestimated. It IS an enjoyable plane
to fly but it doesn't LOOK like it - it isn't SEXY! You don't feel
you're at the cutting edge, that people will say 'he flies guppies - he's
a REAL man', the sense of screaming along a ridge at just under wing
curling speed just does not come across when you look at it.
These sentiments are doubtless crude and unsubtle and I don't aspire to
them even most of the time; I'm not a competition pilot (yet). But they
are an important part of the picture - look at how they sell cars...
Reliability, safety but with a spark of something special probably sums
it up - shots of people (esp. women) looking on admiringly, etc. The
notion that there is some power hidden away there, ready to be unleashed
(though it seldom is). OK, a Volvo is sold on solid dependability and
safety. But that is WORK. Gliding is PLAY and I don't want to FLY a
Volvo Estate - I want something with a bit of POKE!
I have flown the PW5 for only 3 hours or so and I enjoyed its obedient
and well-mannered behaviour. The impression it left on me was the same as
that derived from driving a comfy Nissan - relax, enjoy the view. I know
it doesn't claim to be a Ferrari but it isn't even an Alfa-Romeo with a
nasty gearbox, a rough ride but acceleration like a smoking bat!
The one-class sail boards for the Olympics bore no resemblance to what
everyone wanted to sail and no-one could understand why they were chosen.
Why did we re-design instead of chucking out cheaper LS4 molds by the
dozen? Now there IS a plane!
Phil Swallow
Guenther Seemann
>Guenther Seemann (S...@WZL-MTQ1.WZL.RWTH-AACHEN.DE) wrote:
>: You should seriously consider whether your club training is good enough, if
>: you claim a Discus would be difficult to fly (even XC). You should know that
[...]
>: I do wish the World Class success, but it would be unfair to pretend that a
>: PW-5 would be the safer sailplane.
>Safety isn't the only reason the PW-5 may be more accessible to club
>members than a Discus.
Why? You don't suggest any access restriction for a Discus or a LS4, do you?
>A glider that costs half as much to replace is
>likely (rightly or wrongly) to have lower experience requirements placed
>on it by the club.
Ah, that's the point. Ok. As a instructor and memeber of our club managing
board I say that expereince requirements for a Discus or LS4 shouldn't be
different to those for a PW-5. At least this applies to our club.
>These requirements may be established by negotiation
>between the club and its insurance company, and they may be ridiculously
>high for the more expensive glider, at least from the point of view of
>the capable but low-time pilot.
The cost for a liability insurance is the same for all sailplanes in Germany.
The cost for a comprehensive insurance is calculated as a percentage of
its current value. Of course a PW-5 would be less expensive but I wouldn't
call the costs for a brand new Discus ridiculously high.
Philip Hawker
>How many clubs have sacred cows in the hanger that only the experianced
>pilots ( who generally have their own gliders) can fly. What a club needs
>is something easy to fly, easy to field land and easy to retrieve. Most of
>the so called cheap old standard class (Cirrus, libelle etc) you wouldn't
>let a low hours pilot near. You can go XC after the bronze badge +
>endorsement in the UK (min aprox 10-15 hours P1) and get a silver in 5 more.
>Where do these club pilots go next? World class has a lot to offer.
>(snip)
One aspect which does not seem to have been covered yet in this thread is the
issue of cockpit size. One of the big problems I had as an early solo pilot
was that the local clubs all use Ka-8s, progressing to Ka-6, as the early solo
machines. I'm 6'4" / 190 lbs and could JUST squeeze into a Ka-8, albeit
feeling very uncomfortable and maybe marginally safe - I would end most
flights with the skin rubbed off my shins from the bottom of the panel.
Given that the population as a whole is getting larger I can see big
advantages for a club machine which can cater for a wide range of pilot sizes
- and from what I read the PW-5 fits this requirement well. The Junior is
pretty good (I've sat in it - not flown it) but given the opportunity for
"one-class" competition the PW-5 would seem to me to have the edge.
I'm now watching from a distance (work + young family + gliding = likely
divorce) but hope to go back one day - and the number one criterion then will
be a club with gliders I feel COMFORTABLE in.
--
Philip Hawker
Bath UK
Bill King
>
> snip
>
> However...
>
> I think one of the features which mitigates strongly against the PW5 is
> its aesthetic design - the pregnant guppy. Mail vanity is a powerful
> force in the world (ask any woman!) or, perhaps more to the point, in the
> market-place. It should not be underestimated. It IS an enjoyable plane
> to fly but it doesn't LOOK like it - it isn't SEXY! You don't feel
> you're at the cutting edge, that people will say 'he flies guppies - he's
> a REAL man', the sense of screaming along a ridge at just under wing
> curling speed just does not come across when you look at it.
>
>
> Phil Swallow
You are right! Sexy it's not. At least everyone mistakes my L33 for a glass ship!
With all of the talk of the PW-5 being a fiberglass Ka6 then why does it look so
much like the SZD-16 GIL? I know some were referring to the performance but
at least the designers could have made it look more up to date. Yes I know Sex
Appeal was not on the list of WC requirements.
My question is, why didn't the IGC slect more then one glider for the class when
we all know that market competition would keep the price down and availibility
up? Don't give me that line where only in a one design class will put pilot
against pilot. Striedieck and boys are always at the top if they are flying the
latest thing out of the factory or a design that is 10 years old. When you are
within 3-5 points on glide it still comes down to pilot skill.
Bill
I Johnston
: You should seriously consider whether your club training is good enough, if
: you claim a Discus would be difficult to fly (even XC). You should know that
: in other clubs ALL solo pilots are able to fly safely a Discus (and I assume
: in the Club where Ian flies too) and this could eventually be the reason why
: they prefer a Discus over a PW-5.
In my club a Discus has just replaced a Pegase 101 Club as the second
single seater after a Jeans Astir, and before the DG-300's.
Ian