Pre Takeoff Checklist
Walt Plentis
items?
Bill Dean.
This means:
C Controls
B Ballast
S Straps
I Instruments
F Flaps
T Trim
C Canopy
B Brakes
E Eventualities
Eventualities is to cover in particular pre-flight planning for a launch
failure.
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>
> "Walt Plentis" <wa...@voyager.net> wrote in message
>news:3b5306d5$0$18892$272e...@news.execpc.com...
Jim Husain
>items?
>
C: Controls
B: Ballast
S: Straps
I: Instruments
F: Flaps
T: Trim
C: Canopy
W: Wind
E: Emergency
Jim
N483SZ
gapagod...@aol.com
Kirk Stant
The standard US checklist (riveted into the cockpit of every Schweizer I've
ever flown) is ABCCCDE:
Altimeter
Belts
Canopy
Controls
Cable
Direction of Wind
Emergencies
I prefer to use the British (?) CBSIFTCB checklist, as it is more suited to
more complex gliders and has a better order, in my opinion:
Controls
Ballast
Straps
Instruments
Flaps
Trim
Canopy
Brakes
Notice that the second list is more hardware - oriented, leaving out Wind or
Emergencies - which still need to be addressed. For me, the ABCCCDE leaves
out some specific critical items (trim setting, flaps, brakes, etc) that can
be Safety-of-Flight issues.
I go through my CBSIFTCB before EVERY takeoff, in any kind of glider, BEFORE
I get hooked up. Works for me.
Hope this helps.
Kirk Stant
LS6b 66
Walt Plentis <wa...@voyager.net> wrote in message
news:3b5306d5$0$18892$272e...@news.execpc.com...
John Galloway
ABCDE CBSIFTCB
Before getting in:
A: Airframe (integrity, DI done? Connections etc)
B: Ballast
C: Controls - positive check
D: Dolly - removed tail and wing dollies etc.?
E: Eventualities - noting the wind, plan for emergencies.
Follow this by the standard original BGA 'CBSIFTCB' checklist once in the cockpit.
It doesn't do any harm to mentally confirm the ballast and control checks again while in the cockpit.
Seems sensible to plan for eventualities while there is time before getting in.
No need for separate wind check in the cockpit is it will have been noted during eventualities - unless there is a major change in the last few minutes.
John Galloway
>> Does anyone know the acronym used to remember the pre-takeoff checklist
>> items?
>>
>
>
>
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Armand A. Medeiros
Altimeter means "Altimeter & Instruments" (radio, GPS, Vario, etc.)
Controls means "Controls & Trims set" (includes airbrakes closed, trim,
flaps, etc.)
I do modify it a bit...I leave airbrakes OPEN until just before "thumbs up".
Armand
"Kirk Stant" <st...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:9iv2mq$cjo$1...@nnrp1.phx.gblx.net...
> Walt,
>
> The standard US checklist (riveted into the cockpit of every Schweizer
I've
> ever flown) is ABCCCDE:
>
> Altimeter INCLUDES SETTING ALL INSTRUMENTS
> Belts
> Canopy
> Controls INCLUDES SETTING TRIM
> Cable
> Direction of Wind
> Emergencies
>
> out some specific critical items (trim setting, flaps, brakes, etc) that
can
> be Safety-of-Flight issues.
<snip>
vaughn simon
Ballast,belts
Elevator
Ailerons
Rudder
Canopy
Altimeter
Trim
Spoilers
Vaughn
"Walt Plentis" <wa...@voyager.net> wrote in message
news:3b5306d5$0$18892$272e...@news.execpc.com...
phil....@virgin.net
a few years) I'm staggered how obvious your ABCDE is.
FX - Kicks own arse.
On 16 Jul 2001 16:49:41 GMT, John Galloway
Bill Dean.
Why did'nt you ask me?
Many years ago I invented my "checks before getting in".
These are:
T Tail dolly, ground handling and towing out gear removed.
U Undercarriage. Tyres, skids etc. good.
R Rigging O.K. All pins and safety pins in place (including K21 drag
spar pins).
D Damage since DI - inspect.
This was after experience of operating off the rough runways at Hinton where
it was a good idea to inspect tyres and skids each launch.
I think the whole thing can be covered by the following:
We are looking for good answers to three questions.
1. Is this a glider I want to fly?
(For instance, not if safety pins are not in place. Positive
control checks will not show this.)
The checks above are what I do.
2. Is this glider ready to fly?
(Not, for instance, if the brakes are not locked).
The standard BGA checks will cover this.
3. Am I ready to fly?
(Not, for instance, if I am not mentally prepared for a failed
launch.)
For a launch failure my drill is:-
EXPECT IT.
FLY IT. Don't stall, get a speed decided before launch and
the normal attitude.
LAND IT. Select one of the options considered before the
launch.
Bill.
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>
> <phil....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:3b53630...@news.freeserve.net...
BTIZ
Altimeter - set to field elevation, get response from rear seat if both have
own altimeter
Ballast - as required, removed or installed.. state where it is
Belts - fastened, get response from rear seat
Controls - free and CORRECT, Trim set, spoilers exercised and LOCKED
Canopy - closed, latched and CHECKED (check rear canopy also)
Cable - Connected
Direction of Wind, call the observed wind out loud
Emergency Plan, brief it
"Kirk Stant" <st...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:9iv2mq$cjo$1...@nnrp1.phx.gblx.net...
Robert Ehrlich
Some things never mentinonned in these checklists which are part of the
french standard checklist:
- radio: on appropriate frequency, volume correct (although the "I" for
instruments in some checklists may include that);
- hat and sunglasses;
- no free object in cockpit;
- runway free ahead of glider.
Anyway I am skeptical about these "mnemotechnic" tricks. I don't feel
remembering a list of letter and actions associated with each ones is
easier than remembering the actions themselves, you have only more things
to memorize and more occasions to forget one of them. At least so it is
for me. Memory is a very strange things and works differently with different
individuals. One of the reason I didn't start gliding before my 51th year, despite
the fact I had always since a teenager been interested in gliding and every flying
thing, is that I was convinced that I would certainly some day forget some vital
thing and this would kill me, or rather my instructor(s) will realize this fact
and never send me to fly solo. It happened that effectiveley during my instruction
I sometime forgot some vital thing, but I remember my mistakes and so I am confident
that I can fly safely and instructors agree. But rather then on "memotechnic" list
of letters (which I nevertheless practice as I learnt it) I rely on the proper sequence
of actions made as a combination of an automated process and a reflexion about it
(since things may vary according to glider). As an example, a thing I was frequently
forgetting, which is not vital but only annoying, is to close the sliding window before
take off. The only real danger here is to try to close it during the tow, which may
make you look on it rather than on the tow plane. This until I decided that I should choose
an appropriate time in the sequence of pre take-off actions where to close this window
and always do that at this time. My decision was to do it just after cable hook-up, since
the helper says "close" to me when he puts the ring in the hook and I answer "closed"
afer doing it, he better hears that with the window open, but after that there is no more
reason to keep it open.
Don Johnstone
At 17:00 16 July 2001, John Galloway wrote:
>I have adopted the following as a personal checklist:
>
>ABCDE CBSIFTCB
>
>Before getting in:
>
>A: Airframe (integrity, DI done? Connections etc)
>B: Ballast
>C: Controls - positive check
>D: Dolly - removed tail and wing dollies etc.?
>E: Eventualities - noting the wind, plan for emergencies.
>
>
>Follow this by the standard original BGA 'CBSIFTCB' checklist once in the cockpit.
>
>It doesn't do any harm to mentally confirm the ballast and control checks again while in the cockpit.
>
>Seems sensible to plan for eventualities while there is time before getting in.
>
>No need for separate wind check in the cockpit is it will have been noted during eventualities - unless there is a major change in the last few minutes.
>
>John Galloway
>
>
>
==============================================================
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Kirk Stant
variations) is the poor arrangements of the actions, and the lack of
specific reference to different controls (A vario that isn't turned on has
no affect on the airworthyness of my glider, but on some planes not
resetting the trim before takeoff can be real dangerous!).
To continue this interesting thread, how about pre-landing checks? Not
finding one to my liking, I came up with and use the following:
W - Wind direction (and therefore pattern direction)
W - Water ballast dumped (if this check is done late, this will remind me to
add speed for the water I forgot to dump!)
W - Wheels (down and locked, radio call, check spoiler for no gear warning)
S - Straps tight - useless unless they are rechecked just before landing.
F - Flaps to landing when speed is low enough.
S - Speed correct for the pattern, wind, ballast, flap setting.
T - Trim set for the speed, so if I get distracted on final the speed will
be stable.
Kirk Stant
LS6b "66"
I don't include checking the pattern for other gliders or traffic, because
that to me should be going on all the time. Adding R for Radio on the right
freq could be useful, but so far that hasn't been a problem (or is really
necessary for the safe completion on the approach and landing).
Don Johnstone <REMOVE_TO...@bittering.screaming.net> wrote in message
news:9j10pe$lb84f$1...@ID-49798.news.dfncis.de...
Claudia Buengen
as someone else has mentioned, the CB SIFT CB E checks don't include whether the runway is clear, or the wind direction, or the radio.
I now use the German checks when I fly solo and the British checks when I fly with an instructor (as they wouldn't understand my German gibberish...)
:-)
The German checks go like this:
You start with yourself and then look round from the left to right in your cockpit:
1.straps tight and secure, parachute fitted?
2.brakes closed and locked
3.- depending on where the trim lever is: trimmer - full movement and set for landing speed
4.instruments: all intact, altimeter set at zero, radio switched on
5.full and free movement of the controls
6.wind direction
7.no tractors/cows/sheep/people/whatever on the runway
8.no gliders etc. in the area where I'll be launched to in a few seconds
9.eventualities (cable break, landing options)
- These German checks don't include ballast for some strange reason. (and mnemonics don't usually work in German - English is far more suitable for creating funny acronyms like that...)
Claudia
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Bert Willing
(cofg, seating, parachute, belts) and then from the left over the
instruments to the right with a final check of the controls.
Depending on your glider, you will eventually come across flaps, fowlers,
trim (not always on the left hand side), canopy locks, radio, altimeter (not
always to be set to zero...), logger, waterballast and all that stuff.
I prefer this one instead of ratteling down some acronyms.
--
---------------------
Bert Willing
Calif A21S
Come fly at La Motte du Caire in Southern France:
http://la-motte.decollage.org
Claudia Buengen <REMOVE_TO_R...@gliderpilot.net> a écrit dans le
message : 9j1j9p$kv2q7$1...@ID-49798.news.dfncis.de...
vaughn simon
"Robert Ehrlich" <Robert....@inria.fr> wrote in message
news:3B540190...@inria.fr...
> vaughn simon wrote:
> >
> > BEARCATS
> > Ballast,belts
> > Elevator
> > Ailerons
> > Rudder
> > Canopy
> > Altimeter
> > Trim
> > Spoilers
> >
> > Vaughn
> >
> > "Walt Plentis" <wa...@voyager.net> wrote in message
> > news:3b5306d5$0$18892$272e...@news.execpc.com...
> > > Does anyone know the acronym used to remember the pre-takeoff
checklist
> > > items?
> > >
>
> Some things never mentinonned in these checklists which are part of the
> french standard checklist:
There is no reason why everyone should use the same checklist, it may
vary depending on how your mind works, how your glider is equipped, and the
culture of your local club or operation. I do not insist that all of my
student use my checklist, but I DO insist on hearing theirs out loud before
we launch.
A checklist should normally have only "Killer" items on it, and that
does not mean that there are not other important things the PIC should do
that are not on the checklist. For example; I do not feel that I need a
checklist to tell me to look right and left to see that the area is clear
and to look down the runway to see if it is clear etc. These are things
that you just do. In other works, a checklist is a RITUAL that you perform
that helps assure that important things are not forgotton. It is a MINIMUM,
it is not everything.
If a checklist is interupted, is should be started again from the beginning.
Another point where I may differ from others is that I feel that every
step in a checklist should be relevant. For example: I do not think that we
should be training students to check gear and ballast in a pre-landing check
if the glider is not so equipped. That just trains students to recite and
then disregard the item...something that may "bite then in the ass" when the
time comes that they must REALLY remember to lower the gear or dump the
ballast. Different glider, different checklist; one size does not fit all.
>
> - radio: on appropriate frequency, volume correct (although the "I" for
> instruments in some checklists may include that);
> - hat and sunglasses;
> - no free object in cockpit;
> - runway free ahead of glider.
>
> Anyway I am skeptical about these "mnemotechnic" tricks. I don't feel
> remembering a list of letter and actions associated with each ones is
> easier than remembering the actions themselves, you have only more things
> to memorize and more occasions to forget one of them.
I think the mnemomic is important and helpful, but agree that everyone's
mind works a little differently.
>At least so it is
> for me. Memory is a very strange things and works differently with
different
> individuals.
Vaughn
Martin Gregorie
<REMOVE_TO...@bittering.screaming.net> wrote:
>The big advantage of John's checklist is that it deals with the 'eventualities' at the proper time.
>A few years ago the e was added to the CBSIFTCB so that pilots remembered to brief themselves
>on the conditions and think about their actions in the event of a launch failure.
I'd always assumed the 'E' was at the end so that your actions during
a failed takeoff would be on the top of your mind and not buried
beneath the rest of the ritual.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie.| Harlow
demon. | UK.
co. |
uk |
John Giddy
we use in Oz:
The mnemonic is: CHAOTIC
This has the benefit that it is a pronounceable word, so is
easy to remember. The letters mean:
C = Controls free and in the correct sense. (This is usually
done as part of a preliminary check: ABCD, which I will
describe later
H = Harness correctly fitted and tight (includes question to
passenger in a two seater)
A = Airbrakes (cycled, with visual check of operation, then
locked) also includes Flap settings if relevant
O = Outside (wind, suitable crew, runway clear) and Options
(what to do if a launch emergency occurs at various
altitudes)
T = Trim (for winch launch, full forward to help in case of
a wire break)
I = Instruments (readings seem OK, set altimeter, radio on
and on correct frequency)
C = Controls again (full and free movement, in case harness
straps or something else has impeded their operation)
The ABCD check is not mandatory, but is done by a number of
Clubs. It is done from outside the cockpit before entering.
A = Airframe (quick walk around to check that all appears
well after the last guy flew the aircraft. Check Maintenance
Release to ensure the glider was inspected before flying for
that day)
B = Ballast (check whether you need ballast, and then check
whether there is ballast left behind by the previous crew,
and adjust as necessary)
C = Controls (check for full and free operation, and that
all surfaces work in the correct direction)
D = Dolley (check that tail dolley has been removed)
There is a second mandatory mnemonic in use in OZ. This is a
pre-landing check: FUST
F = Flap setting (or statement "no flaps fitted")
U = Undercarriage
S = Speed
T = Trim (for correct speed)
Cheers, John G.
--
John Giddy
5/287 Barkers Rd
Kew, Vic. 3101
Australia
Martin Gregorie <ki...@see.sig.for.address> wrote in message
news:3b54c9ca...@news.demon.co.uk...
Chris Rowland
<REMOVE_TO_R...@gliderpilot.net> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>as someone else has mentioned, the CB SIFT CB E checks don't include whether the runway is clear, or the wind direction, or the radio.
>
>I now use the German checks when I fly solo and the British checks when I fly with an instructor (as they wouldn't understand my German gibberish...)
>:-)
If we ever fly together then you are welcome to use the German checks
- as long as I can do the English checks:-)
I think that it is important to have a structure for checks so that
nothing important is missed, the mnemonics help with that.
BTW, in the UK we used to have pre landing checks - UFSTAL. Does
anyone know why these were abandoned?
Chris Rowland
Carol & John
C - Controls; check for freedom of movement over full operating range
I - Instruments; set altimeter, check instruments, radio
S - Straps; tighten lap strap, then shoulder straps
T - Trim and Ballast, if any (pilot weights within limits)
R - Release; check for tension (release check for first flight)
S - Spoilers and Flaps; open spoilers, check for freedom of movement, then
close and lock. Set flaps for takeoff.
C - Canopy; close and lock, then check physically by pushing
O - Options; for launch interrupted - for example by rope break.
"Walt Plentis" <wa...@voyager.net> wrote in message
news:3b5306d5$0$18892$272e...@news.execpc.com...
Doug Hoffman
wa...@voyager.net writes:
>Does anyone know the acronym used to remember the pre-takeoff checklist
>items?
>
The only thing I remember is to look at the panel where I have
a typed list taped. I follow the list.
Btw, an acronym is a sequence of letters that can be spoken
as a word. Example SNAFU (situation normal, all fouled up).
A bunch of letters strung together that cannot be
pronounced would be called an initialism.
-Doug
Bill Dean.
There are a number of clubs in the U.K. where downwind checks (as pre
landing checks are usually named in the U.K.) are still taught, and a number
of instructors still teach them. At some clubs the Chief Flying Instructor
still insists that they be done, and taught. I think this applies at the
Soaring Centre (Husbands Bosworth), Derby & Lancs. Club (Camphill), Midland
Gliding Club (Long Mynd), I am sure there are several others.
A number of the most senior C.F.I.s and Coaches (trainers of instructors)
have always been against downwind checks. For instance, Bill Scull (CFI
Lasham then BGA Chief Coach), Chris Rollings (CFI Booker GC then BGA Chief
Coach), Brian Spreckley (BGA Coach then CFI Booker), Derek Piggott (CFI
Lasham and Coach), John Jeffries and Derek Sear (CFIs London Club,
Dunstable), Chris Pullen (BGA Coach and chairman BGA Instruction
sub-committee), several others of similar standing.
I think the Law of Primacy is very important, and must always be taken into
account. Habits form quickly, and people form an emotional attachment to
their habits. Because of this, I think it is important not to ask people
to change habits unless really necessary. Asking a pupil to do something
not previously done, or to stop doing something, is a major change of habit.
I do not think the arguments for or against downwind checks are sufficiently
strong to justify asking people to change. I do not do them myself, and
never teach them; I was not taught them when being instructed or checked as
a pilot, and was not told to teach them when being coached or examined as an
instructor. On balance I am against them, I agree with the distinguished
names above; but when I have a pupil who has been taught to do them I do not
ask for this to stop.
Bill.
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>
> "Chris Rowland" <chr...@sapiens.nildram.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3b561647...@corp.supernews.co.uk...
>
> Snip.
>
> BTW, in the UK we used to have pre landing checks - UFSTAL. Does
> anyone know why these were abandoned?
>
> Chris Rowland.
>
Greg Arnold
Is there something about gliders that causes written checklists to be
inappropriate? I am a lot safer reading a written checklist that trying to
remember some acronyms, and then trying to remember what they are supposed
to stand for.
In a high pressure situation, there isn't a chance I could remember this
stuff. Maybe this is why the incidence of gear-up landings among gliders is
a lot higher than among power planes?
Walt Konecny
news:wZD57.8034$A47.5...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...
> I agree. All other pilots (Piper Cub to Concorde) use written checklists.
> Is there something about gliders that causes written checklists to be
> inappropriate? I am a lot safer reading a written checklist that trying
to
> remember some acronyms, and then trying to remember what they are supposed
> to stand for.
Matter of fact, if you're going for some sort of checkride in a power plane
(BFR, new rating, etc) and you DO NOT read from the checklist, but rather do
it from memory, you're going to get a long lecture from the checkpilot, who
will then INSIST that you have checklist in hand and read from it, and
actually touch all the items on that list.
Now, the argument some will make for not reading from a written one in a
glider is that there aren't nearly as many items to remember in a glider.
In which case the question begs to be asked: "What kind of dolt are you that
you need a memorable acronym in order to remember 5 items?" Don't you know
what the important stuff is prior to takeoff and landing? If not, find
something else to do with your time.
wk
Bill Dean.
done.
There have been a good many wheels-up landings over the years, some by very
distinguished and well known pilots (I will spare their blushes). It is
very common to find that if they are asked "Did you do downwind checks?" the
answer is "Oh, yes!". Very few pilots are trained in two-seaters with a
retracting wheel, and few early solo machines have them.
What most people seem to do, and I do myself, is to put the wheel down when
the decision to land is made; I have done so at 4,000ft before now.
Most of the items in most downwind check lists are airmanship items which
pilots do anyway, and are not special to the landing sequence. Who flies
around not looking out, who flies out of trim? Who does a circuit pattern
without choosing or looking at the landing area? Yet these items are often
in the check list.
Power check-lists (the ones I am familiar with) consist of items about the
aircraft itself which need changing or checking when moving from cruise
configuration to landing configuration. The only such item with a glider
is the wheel, so if you use a check-list it should have one item "Wheel".
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>
> "Todd Pattist" <pat...@DONTSPAMME.snet.net> wrote in message
>news:9jpdltk3gb695i3s8...@4ax.com...
>
> > "Bill Dean." <bill...@freeuk.com> wrote:
> >
> >A number of the most senior C.F.I.s and Coaches (trainers of instructors)
> >have always been against downwind checks.
>
> This is interesting. Are you saying that no pre-landing
> check of any type is done? If so, how do you teach pilots
> to always remember to lower the gear? OTOH, are you perhaps
> just saying that the check is done prior to entering the
> pattern, (before the "downwind") so that the pilots
> attention is focused outside during the actual pattern?
>
> Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to reply.)
>
Richard Brisbourne
<bill...@freeuk.com> writes
>Power check-lists (the ones I am familiar with) consist of items about the
>aircraft itself which need changing or checking when moving from cruise
>configuration to landing configuration. The only such item with a glider
>is the wheel, so if you use a check-list it should have one item "Wheel".
>
>W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>
--
Richard Brisbourne
BAToulson
writes:
> At some clubs the Chief Flying Instructor
>still insists that they be done, and taught. I think this applies at the
>Soaring Centre (Husbands Bosworth),
Nope!
At Hus Bos we follow the BGA recommendations which is that good airmanship
should prevail and pre landing actions carried out as appropriate although we
have some problem getting this new suystem across to all instructors.
This does not mean that checks should not be done, it simply means that they
are carried out as and when appropriate, not necessarily in the downwind leg
and not necessarily by rote.
Barney
Bill Dean.
instructors teach them.
I think the consensus among the most experienced Chief Flying Instructors
and Coaches (trainers of instructors) is that the balance of argument is
against doing downwind checks. However, this is not an official doctrine,
the matter is in fact controversial and can create quite a lot of heat.
The BGA Instructors' Manual (the nearest we have to an official doctrine) is
fairly neutral on the matter. It says (14.11):
Before going to the high key area (I have started part way through the
sequence): Prepare for landing by -
doing pre-landing checks, if appropriate
making sure the straps are tight and deciding on a suitable approach
speed. In gliders so equipped, dump any water ballast and lower
the undercarriage.
continuing to fly the glider at normal speed ..........
Under "Advice to Instructors" (14.17):
Downwind.
Don't confuse the demonstration by introducing downwind checks as
such. It is all there anyway and the pre-landing checks should be
carried out before starting the circuit. A mnemonic on the
downwind leg is inappropriate. Recitation of checks should not be
confused with an ability to plan a circuit.
The above extracts are from the second edition (Feb. 99). In the first
edition (Jan. 94) the first line "doing pre-landing checks, if appropriate"
is missing, there are other changes. The manual was written by people who
were against down-wind checks, but they had to take into account the
feelings of those strongly in favour.
I have had the experience of sitting behind a pupil who stumbled through the
checks he had been taught the whole way down the down-wind leg, while
running out of height. Most of these checks are airmanship things anyway,
when are you not concious of your speed, is it not automatic to re-trim to
fly trimmed all the time?
I think that people differ, and if a pilot finds that a list helps, then use
one; but it is vital in a glider always to be flexible.
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>
> "Todd Pattist" <pat...@DONTSPAMME.snet.net> wrote in message
> news:fbceltg5n3jr0iks6...@4ax.com...
>
> >
> > "Bill Dean." <bill...@freeuk.com> wrote:
> >
> > The recommendation is that no downwind or pre-landing check of any kind
> > is done.
> >
>
> Quite interesting. I was unaware of this significant
> difference in philosophy betweent he U.S. and the U.K.
>
> > There have been a good many wheels-up landings over the years, some by
> > very distinguished and well known pilots (I will spare their blushes).
> > It is very common to find that if they are asked "Did you do downwind
> > checks?" the answer is "Oh, yes!".
>
> Agreed - a check is no guarantee that the pilot won't land
> gear-up, but IMHO, it reduces the chances of it.
>
> > Very few pilots are trained in two-seaters with a
> > retracting wheel, and few early solo machines have them.
>
> I also primarily learned in a non-retract, but learned the
> gear as part of my checklist. I remember how fun it was
> when we spin-trained in the Blanik and I first got to
> actually use that part of the list :-) (That brings up the
> whole issue of learning generic lists applicable in all
> gliders or specific lists for the specific glider)
>
>
> > What most people seem to do, and I do myself, is to put the wheel down
> > when the decision to land is made; I have done so at 4,000ft before now.
>
> I run through my check at that time, then again at pattern
> entry if they are far apart.
>
> > Most of the items in most downwind check lists are airmanship items
> > which pilots do anyway, and are not special to the landing sequence.
> > Who flies around not looking out, who flies out of trim? Who does a
> > circuit pattern without choosing or looking at the landing area? Yet
> > these items are often in the check list.
> >
> > Power check-lists (the ones I am familiar with) consist of items about
> > the aircraft itself which need changing or checking when moving from
> > cruise configuration to landing configuration. The only such item with
> > a glider is the wheel, so if you use a check-list it should have one
> > item "Wheel".
>
> "Ballast dumped" is on mine (first), as I want to get the
> dumping started early -it takes me nearly 4 minutes. That's
> configuration. I also have "trim set." Landing is the one
> time I really want the ship to revert automatically to my
> preselected approach airspeed, not to thermalling speed.
>
> I've also got "belts tight." That's an in-cockpit
> adjustment I want made early. I land with belts very tight,
> and I often need to reconnect the fifth strap before
> entering the pattern (you get to guess why I disconnected
> it).
>
> The remaining things on my list are more like reminders to
> me not to screw up. Which runway to land on in light of the
> wind/traffic, if it's an out landing, any special
> considerations as to slope/obstructions/access/surface, what
> approach speed will I use today, do the brakes need to be
> checked early on and what flap setting will I use. My
> landing checklist puts me through a standardized sequence of
> decisions that need to be made as I approach a more
> dangerous part of the flight. I believe it has helped me be
> a safer pilot.
Bill Dean.
Yes, I thought of that. Do you really ever forget you have water? Have
you heard of anyone landing with water on inadvertently?
The point about the wheel is that you put it up very soon after launch; and
then don't touch it or think about it until just before landing, assuming
you do in fact remember.
Bill.
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>
> "Richard Brisbourne" <ric...@rbris.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:vUlIBCAS...@rbris.demon.co.uk...
> Richard Brisbourne.
>
Caracole
"Bill Dean." wrote in message
"snips"
> Under "Advice to Instructors" (14.17):
>
> Downwind.
> Don't confuse the demonstration by introducing downwind checks as
> such. It is all there anyway and the pre-landing checks should
be
> carried out before starting the circuit.
What does "it is all there anyway" mean?
And when it says "pre-landing checks should be carried out before
starting the circuit". Does this mean that pre landing checks are indeed
done, but at some time before starting the circuit?
M Eiler
Ludovic Launer
> you heard of anyone landing with water on inadvertently?
Think about any stupid thing, you'll always find an idiot to do it :
I inadvertently landed with the water once :-)
Ludovic
Bill Dean.
unlikely that it would be Richard Brisbourne.
I am afraid my answer is the general one, that whatever system or method is
used, someone will always land wheels up. Which is not a reason for not
trying to find the best method of avoiding it.
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>
> "Ludovic Launer" <ludovic...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
> news:9j8kvi$s1m$1...@wanadoo.fr...
Bill Dean.
Manual, but I know most of the people who were, and I have a fair idea of
their thinking.
They were against teaching or doing formal downwind checks, using a
mnemonic. But they knew that some were passionately in favour, and would
continue to teach it, so they put in a form of words to allow for this.
The second edition goes further in this than the first edition.
The thinking as I have always understood it is:
1. Most items in most downwind check lists are in fact airmanship items,
which any pilot ought to be doing anyway, mostly in all phases of flight not
just when in the circuit/pattern and landing phases. Other items like
using air-brakes are hardly likely to be forgotten.
2. Once you have eliminated the airmanship items, you are usually left
with just "dump waterballast" and "wheel down".
3. Time pressure and managing workload are often a problem when flying,
especially in a glider, and particularly in the circuit and landing phases.
Anything which adds to the workload is bad news, and a formal checklist to
be recited comes into this category. If you insist on doing it (perhaps
because the habit is so ingrained that you find it impossible to stop), then
get it over before joining the circuit.
The form of words "its all there anyway" I do find unsatisfactory. I have
always understood it to mean "its all airmanship which you will be doing
anyway" so there is no need for a formal checklist to remind you, and you
should be doing it continuously and not just once as part of a checklist.
If anyone who was involved in actually drafting the BGA Manual is reading
this, I hope they will post and put me right.
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K).
>
> "Caracole" <Cara...@ccis.com> wrote in message
> news:WdO57.77$J23.15...@news2.randori.com...
> M Eiler.
>
Larry Goddard
People are bandying about a lot of words that can mean different things in this
discussion. I would like to know what is your definition of "airmanship" in the
context of this discussion or the BGA Instructor's manual rationalization.
Larry Goddard
Chris Rowland
Three, flaps.
The Airbrakes item was put in to spoil the fun of watching somebody
trying to do an approach while using the U/C or flap lever instead of
the airbrakes.
Chris Rowland
Robert Ehrlich
do downwind checks, pre landings actions should be performed before entering
the pattern. Anyway, even if some things like looking out are part of good
airmanship, I think it is wise to remind them before a critical phase like
landing. A thing that I didn't see in these pre landing actions or checks is
the radio. One should include in the actions to do before entering the pattern:
repeat in your mind what you are going to say in the downwind radio message
(identification of the glider, runway number, evt non-standard side ...). This
should avoid what happened to me recently, to say "Charlie Zulu, uh ! no,
Charlie Victor south downwind for a long landing runway 30". A part of this
radio message on gliders with retractable gear is to announce "gear down and locked".
This is the 3rd check/action for the landing gear, the first being during the pre
landing action before entering the pattern (when you lower it), the second
during the downwind checks (when you check it). On 2 occasions among several hundred
flights I had to observe a short silence between the words "gear" and "down and locked"
so that the words become true at this time :-).
Ludovic Launer
Does the tower / other planes in the pattern really care about this ?
Shouldn't we try to make our mesages on the radio as short as possible (only
necessary information).
Having the gear down and locked is the PIC's problem.
Or is the tower really going to tell you that regardless of what you've just
said the gear is not down ?
Ludovic
Richard Brisbourne
<bill...@freeuk.com> writes
And I have....
--
Richard Brisbourne
Don Johnstone
answer. My club still used the challenge and response mnemonic WULF as a
pre-landing check.
Water - Dumped
Undercarriage - down and locked
Loose articles - stowed
Flaps - Set
There are two basic problems with this. Firstly the pilot has to remember to apply the checks. A significant number of 'wheels up' landings are made simply because the pilot has 'forgotten' the checks, or at least that is
what is assumed. Doh. Secondly the use of mnemonics for challenge and response checks is not foolproof even if the pilot remembers to carry them out. Most pilot training is carried out in fixed undercarriage, unflapped
gliders which do not carry water. As a result for a significant period of time, and perhaps more importantly, during the early stages of his flying career a pilot recites to himself or his instructor, Water - not carried,
Undercarriage - Fixed, Loose articles - stowed and Flaps not fitted. The only one of these checks required is perhaps the loose articles. The intention is that the challenge part (Water, Undercarriage, Loose Articles, Flaps) of the sequence becomes automatic and will be applied when he moves
on to fly more advanced gliders. Unfortunately the response tends to become automatic as well as it is always the same and this is definitely not desirable. The down side of this form a training is that it does not encourage a pilot to actually think to deeply about his actions, and when
the excrement interfaces with the rotating air moving appliance this automatic response can be, and I suspect frequently is, reverted to. There are well-documented incidents where experienced pilots have called 'Finals
3 greens' despite the wheels being safely stowed in the bays. Because of this tendency the Royal Air Force place a limit on the number of consecutive circuits that can be flown. The use of challenge and response mnemonics can be useful aid but because of its repetitive nature it can never be a substitute for a pilot thinking and taking actions appropriate to the stage of flight.
My prefered procedure is at the point where I make the decision to land, beit at my home site when I have had enough or when I select a field I ask the question, 'What do I need to do to this glider to prepare for the landing?' and carry out only the appropriate actions (That is different from what I am required to teach). It works for me, well so far it has.
Yes I have sat in my Kestrel, unstressed, doing the pre-takeoff checks and heard myself mutter 'Flaps - Not fitted'. Automatic check, automatic response, automatic crash, no thanks.
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Robert Ehrlich
>
> > to announce "gear down and locked".
>
> Does the tower / other planes in the pattern really care about this ?
There is no tower where I am flying (Centre Aeronautique de Beynes), only a
duty instructor on ground with a handheld radio, and it is an airfield for gliders
only. Of course the duty instructor cares of the radio message and will ask about
the gear if he doesn't hear it. If I remember correctly, when I was in St Auban,
although power planes are also flying there, the ritual was the same.
> Shouldn't we try to make our mesages on the radio as short as possible (only
> necessary information).
If adding 3 short words can improve safety ...
>
> Having the gear down and locked is the PIC's problem.
The problem as always in safety matters is "how can we minimize/avoid the effect
of an error". Certainly if people were not making errors this would not be necessary.
But the experience shows that they do.
>
> Or is the tower really going to tell you that regardless of what you've just
> said the gear is not down ?
>
I hope so, but this is not the purpose of the radio message. The idea is that there
is a very low probability that somebody would say that his gear is down when it is
not so. He would rather forget also to say it or realize that he forgot to lower the
gear and correct his mistake. This worked twice for me. In a similar way, at Fayence
where I had 2 flights, the towplane pilot refuses to start unless he hears in the radio.
"Glider XX ready to takeoff, airbrakes closed and locked". It is very unlikely that the
glider pilot would say this and the airbrakes are not locked. We had a landing in a
field just near the airfield in my club due to such a mistake. I forgot this also a couple
of time in my beginning, but happily somebody noticed it before take-off and said it to me.
> Ludovic
Bill Dean.
All right, you win. "Wheel, Water".
Bill.
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>
> "Richard Brisbourne" <ric...@rbris.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:$BvvwCAn...@rbris.demon.co.uk...
> Richard Brisbourne.
>
Clive Gawler
> Does anyone know the acronym used to remember the pre-takeoff checklist
> items?
John Godfrey
Moshe Braner
about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from!
I prefer a checklist written on a placard in the cockpit. It may not be
standard, but I don't have to memorize it, and thus not likely to forget
items on it.
Chip Bearden
But old habits die hard, and the last, additional segment of the list is another 6 items I read off outloud from the very old days:
A - altimeter set
B - Belts and harness fastened
C - Controls free (positive control check is on the written checklist)
C - Canopy down and locked
C - cable connected properly
D - dive brakes (closed and locked for most, but I roll with my brakes out for better aileron control)
My philosophy is that the written checklist is too important and far too long for mnemonics. I suspect I would think differently if I instructed or gave rides or flew a lot of different gliders. But except for flight reviews, all of my flying is in my ASW 24, and has been for years.
Chip Bearden
John Foster
A - Altimeter
B - Belts & Harnesses
B - Balast
C - Control check
C - Canopy closed/latched
C - Cable connected
D - Dive brakes closed and locked
D - Direction (of the wind)
E - Emergency plan
1A, 2B, 3C, 2D, 1E
I also added my own "F" for Flight Computer, as I run XC Soar on an Android phone, and there has been more than one flight where I found out it wasn't turned on while I was on tow already.
Tim Newport-Peace
Controls, Brakes, Straps, Instruments. Trim, Canopy, Brakes
Brakes twice as some very experienced pilots had tried to take-off with
brakes open. I will mention no names. The only Ballast in those days was
the Talking Ballast sitting beside/behind you.
There was also another SISTRS, but I never used it.
Back when winching was the Norm and not the Exception, there was an
acronym for Cable-brake procedure, NARSTI.
Nose-down Attitude, Release, Speed, Trim, Instruments
unless you were an instructor, in which case it was:
No Attitude Really Surprises This Idiot!
Dan Marotta
Lark off the winch at Bond Springs, NT, Australia. I carry (and use)
printed check lists in the Stemme and Cessna 180.
Dan
5J
john firth
in Sailplane and Gliding; very few serious injuries and no fatalities for some time; the BGA has clearly been
doing a good job of monitoring training.
However, gear up landings still appear regularly; I have done one myself ( no audio warning fitted)
The Gear/Brake switches plus audio have saved me a few times when distracted, even though I normally
lower the gear before entering the circuit. Why does the BGA not insist that all retractable gear gliders
have a warning installed?
John Firth ( Canada)
George Haeh
Soaring Association Canada offers checklist placards at
https://www.sac.ca/index.php/en/home-all/supplies
KISS applies. Hopefully by the time you are flying a single seater where there's typically no room for the placards, you should have them memorized. SWAFTS is pretty easy to memorise for landing.
A tilt up canopy with the manufacturer checklist visible is very handy.
Having stalled out of a rambunctious thermal at 9500' while fiddling with my cannula, I now set it up before takeoff.
Dan Marotta
figure out what the letters mean...
No worries - my certificated glider has a gear warning built in from the
factory.
Dan
5J
Guy Byars
> Looks like SWAFTS would be easy to memorize but I'm damned if I can
> figure out what the letters mean...
>
> No worries - my certificated glider has a gear warning built in from the
> factory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5McECUtM8fw&t=190s
2G
Tom
jp
Moshe Braner
written checklist, one must do the things on the memorized list. And
listen to the radio (and talk sometimes). And look for hints about the
wind on the ground. All while flying the glider in the pattern,
maintaining airspeed, observing altitude and 2D location, re-planning
the pattern if things go out of whack. Etc. Same in other phases of
flight, e.g., evaluate whether the glide back to the airport is getting
marginal, and look for traffic, while flying the glider and perhaps
working lift. A student pilot is not ready to fly solo until they can
multitask to some extent. Sometimes I even intentionally try to
distract my students - a needed lesson.
jp
Martin Gregorie
> I recall it as:
> Controls, Brakes, Straps, Instruments. Trim, Canopy, Brakes
>
Controls - full free movement of stick and rudder
Ballast - If you need cockpit weights, are they installed and secure
Straps - are they secure and undamaged
Instruments - all working? Glass not broken?
Flaps - Set for takeoff, if fitted
Trim - trim set for takeoff
Brakes - airbrakes checked, closed and locked
Eventualities - think through speeds, turn directions,
etc if the launch fails
Canopy - check the canopy is closed and locked
push to make sure
- CBSIFTBEC
We moved 'Eventualities' to last in last summer's heat: don't know if
we'll move in back the its usual place (formerly CBSIFTBCE)
WULF is the most common landing mnemonic:
Water - ballast tanks empty
Undercarriage - UC down and locked
Lookout - who's in the circuit
Flaps - flaps set for landing
But expect a radio call from 3-5 miles out if you've been cross country to
announce your current distance and approach direction and a call before
you join the circuit to announce your arrival in local airspace and the
direction you intend to turn (we allow both circuit directions so that in
a cross wind the downwind leg can be on the downwind side of the runway.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Frank Whiteley
Frank Whiteley
Martin Gregorie
> What happened to wulfstall, which was an update for ustall?
>
preferred mount is a 201 Libelle, WULF reduces to UL.