ASW-24 E
Francisco De Almeida
Can anyone comment on the realities of self-launching
and low saves with an ASW-24 E?
Good flights,
Francisco
Rock Thompson
elevation and summer temperatures, self-launch is "marginal". In that type
of location it would be more realistic to consider it a sustainer.
Rock Thompson
"Francisco De Almeida" <REMOVE_TO_RE...@parquedasnacoes.pt> wrote
in message news:ao70cp$jngg5$1...@ID-49798.news.dfncis.de...
TimTaylor
"Francisco De Almeida" <REMOVE_TO_RE...@parquedasnacoes.pt> wrote
in message news:ao70cp$jngg5$1...@ID-49798.news.dfncis.de...
Not sure what you mean by "low save". If you are planning on flying any
motorglider and want to low save below 2000 feet agl you should not buy one.
Either you use the engine to take-off and always start the relight procedure
over the field you are going to land in at 2000 feet agl or you should not
try to restart the engine at all and fly it as if it was a glider. A low
save in a motorglider is asking to have an accident.
Tim
Brad
I'll bet you could get an Apis 15-M motorglider, brand new for A LOT
less than a used ASW-24, and get a positive climb rate in almost ANY
location. And as far as low saves....piece-o-cake. Of course, one has
to separate ones self from the "if it ain't German it ain't worth a
second look"
Are you ready?
Cheers,
Brad
N299AP
Eric Greenwell
2fer...@gte.net says...
> Francisco De Almeida <REMOVE_TO_RE...@parquedasnacoes.pt> wrote in message news:<ao70cp$jngg5$1...@ID-49798.news.dfncis.de>...
> > Hi,
> >
> > Can anyone comment on the realities of self-launching
> > and low saves with an ASW-24 E?
> >
> > Good flights,
> > Francisco
>
> I'll bet you could get an Apis 15-M motorglider, brand new for A LOT
> less than a used ASW-24, and get a positive climb rate in almost ANY
> location. And as far as low saves....piece-o-cake.
Maybe you should expand on the "piece-o-cake" idea. Is the Apis safer
to start at low altitudes than the other motorgliders available, or do
you mean it has such good thermalling ability you'll be able to soar
away from 500 feet?
--
Delete the REMOVE from my e-mail address to reply directly
Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)
ADP
glider and not a power rating. A motor glider is a GLIDER with an engine.
If you ever need to start the engine to land or touch the throttle below
1000 ft agl, you should not have one. When landing with or without the
engine running, if you use engine power past the key point, you do not
belong in a motor glider. If you don't know what the key point is, you
don't belong in a flying machine at all.
Good luck,
Allan
"Rock Thompson" <l.a.th...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:0riq9.3917$1P1.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
J.A.M.
referring to?
Rgds,
Jose M. Alvarez.
"ADP" <a...@commspeed.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:10347502...@news.commspeed.net...
Brad
risk. Even the Apis is held to those constraints. It uses a reliable
Rotax engine, has a fast extraction and start sequence, but is still
subject to the rules all other motorgliders should follow; including
$120,00 German motorgliders....:o)
My Low Save reference was to the Apis' ability for exceptional climb
rate and low sink rate. Bet some of you have made some low saves
before, the Apis does it well too........I can attest to that.
Brad
Eric Greenwell <REMOVEeg...@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:<MPG.1814c9084...@flashnews.prodigy.net>...
Ray Lovinggood
I learned, as a rule of thumb, to promote engine life
for any type of engine, you allow the engine to warm
up before applying full throttle.
I suppose when you are trying to save the flight and
the possibility of landing out, you crank the engine
and demand full power immediately, if not sooner.
Cold engine be damned!
The question: Do you do this, knowing the life of
the engine might be reduced and it is just another
cost of soaring?
I guess it is another reason for starting the process
when at about 2,000' agl or so?
Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
At 12:12 16 October 2002, Brad wrote:
>Using the engine for a low save in any pop-up engine
>motorglider is a
>risk. Even the Apis is held to those constraints. It
>uses a reliable
>Rotax engine, has a fast extraction and start sequence,
>but is still
>subject to the rules all other motorgliders should
>follow; including
>$120,00 German motorgliders....:o)
>
>My Low Save reference was to the Apis' ability for
>exceptional climb
>rate and low sink rate. Bet some of you have made some
>low saves
>before, the Apis does it well too........I can attest
>to that.
>
>Brad
>
>Eric Greenwell wrote in message news:...
>> In article ,
>> 2fer...@gte.net says...
>> > Francisco De Almeida wrote in message news:...
Apis Gliders
<REMOVE_TO_...@intrex.net> writes:
>I guess it is another reason for starting the process
>when at about 2,000' agl or so?
Ray,
Yes, altitude is safety. Start the transition process early. With the Apis you
want to raise the engine temps to about 200 to 250degs. before applying full
throttle. This warm up temperature may be harder to achieve while flying due to
the increase in airflow.
Of course during a save you do not necessarily have to climb right away, just
not land. So full power usually will not be necessary to sustain flight. In
most cases you will be able to apply enough power to fly level, let the engine
warm up and then apply more power to climb away. How much power it takes to
sustain flight depends on a lot of factors. Gross weight, density altitude,
engine health, pucker factor etc.
For further information about the operation of motorgliders read Eric
Greenwell's excellent articles.
Robert Mudd
ADP
Allan
"J.A.M." <yll...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aoj926$2ov...@news1s.iddeo.es...
JJ Sinclair
hoses, battery, wires and stuff will weigh between 100 and 150 pounds. You
will be lugging your stuff around with you all day long. In a 15 meter ship the
wing loading will be in the neighborhood of 9 pounds per square foot. That's OK
out West in the good old summertime. Not so good in October or March. It is my
considered opinion that viable motor gliders start with an 18 meter wing span.
Standing by for the ram from the micro-minies.
JJ Sinclair
Keith W
Colloquially the instructors talk about 'high key' as being the start of the
downwind leg, and 'low key' as the end of it. However, I have just looked
through four books on gliding (including two by Piggot), and the terms are
not use, as far as I can see. Are these the 'key points' mentioned, or are
these specific to motor gliders?
Keith
"ADP" <a...@commspeed.net> wrote in message
news:10347851...@news.commspeed.net...
> I rest my case!
>
> Allan
>
> "J.A.M." <yll...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:aoj926$2ov...@news1s.iddeo.es...
> > What is the key point? I ain't got any keys in my glider... What are you
> > referring to?
> >
> > Rgds,
> > Jose M. Alvarez.
> >
<SNIP>
Brad
My self-launch experience is in a Schleicher ASK-14, this was a
tractor mounted feathering prop motorglider.
When I would use the engine for a *save* all I needed to do was
re-pitch the prop, set the throttle and hit the starter......the Hirth
F-10 2-stroke engine was bullet proof and I could use full throttle
almost immediatley. However, if I didn't need to climb, then the
throttle could be set at almost idle and I could cruise along at about
70 and have 0 fpm on the VSI.
Most of my experience was in the Cascade mountains, there I would use
the engine only if it appeared my final glide would not get me back to
my home airport. I did not rely on it to save my butt when I was in
the mountains.
This was a really fun motorglider, too bad there is nothing like it
being made anymore......although, I did hear someone was tinkering
with something called the Glidair.....:o)
Cheers,
Brad
Ray Lovinggood <REMOVE_TO_...@intrex.net> wrote in message news:<aojlbe$movqd$1...@ID-49798.news.dfncis.de>...
tango4
don't get the chance to warm anything up!
2 stroke engines are unusual in that they develop their best power when
cold. 4 strokes like to be mollycoddled and warmed up.
Ian
"Ray Lovinggood" <REMOVE_TO_...@intrex.net> wrote in message
news:aojlbe$movqd$1...@ID-49798.news.dfncis.de...
Ray Lovinggood
A great English word that wouldn't sound right from
the mouth of this redneck! Isn't the Queen's English
bloody grand?
Ray (the Redneck) Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
Marc Ramsey
"Brad" <2fer...@gte.net> wrote...
> My self-launch experience is in a Schleicher ASK-14, this was a
> tractor mounted feathering prop motorglider.
> This was a really fun motorglider, too bad there is nothing like it
> being made anymore......although, I did hear someone was tinkering
> with something called the Glidair.....:o)
There is the Carat:
http://technoflug.de/english/carat/index.html
Marc
Bill Dean.
Piggott, some with Derek himself. At that time (40 years ago) his
teaching, in particular his training of instructors, was much more
influential than later; because the BGA coaching scheme for training
instructors was in its infancy.
Throughout my training I never once heard the phrases "high key point" or
"low key point" used. However, as Keith W. says, the ideas behind the
phrases were taught, and are in Derek's ( and other peoples') books. I
think Derek deliberately avoided using those phrases, probably because they
have to be explained and do not put an immediate or obvious picture into the
pupil's mind.
The phrases are used by some instructors today as shorthand, but they have
to be explained first. They are certainly not used only for motor-gliders;
they are not used in power flying because powered planes do not have to keep
height in hand, they have a throttle.
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Rule #1 - Don't collide.
Rule #2 - Fly the ship.
Rule #3 - You've got to land.
Rule #4 - Everything else, have fun.
>
> "Keith W" <wit...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:aokeir$5oc$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
>
> > To put a relative beginner out of his misery - what is a key point?
>
> Colloquially the instructors talk about 'high key' as being the start of
> the downwind leg, and 'low key' as the end of it. However, I have just
> looked through four books on gliding (including two by Piggott), and the
Apis Gliders
Sinclair) writes:
> It is my
>considered opinion that viable motor gliders start with an 18 meter wing
>span.
>Standing by for the ram from the micro-minies.
It is my considered opinion that viable motorgliders start with your pocket
book and a educated selection process.
18 meters equals big bucks. Not all glider pilots are so blessed. The new crop
of selflaunchers offer a range of performance, both motor on and stowed. They
vary widely in engine power and wing loading.
For instance the Apis M has a span of 15 meters and a wing area of 132
sq.ft./12.26sq.m
At max gross weight the wing loading is only 5lbs. sq.ft./24.5kg.sq.m and the
power loading is 16.5lb.per/hp. These are very good numbers.
By comparison the DG 800B has a max gross weight wing loading of 9.1lb.sq.ft.,
power loading of 21.83lb./hp
For less than half the cost of a German made selflaunch glider you can get an
Apis M, trailer and shipping. This opens up motorgliding to a lot more people
and hopefully expands the sport. Naturally you don't get the 18 meter
performance, but it is something you can afford. Wing span means nothing if you
can't afford it.
Robert Mudd
JJ Sinclair
132 sq. ft. wing area which gives a very viable wing loading. Looks like a good
bird to me.
JJ Sinclair
Apis Gliders
Sinclair) writes:
> I didn't know the Apis M (!5meter) had a
>132 sq. ft. wing area which gives a very viable wing loading. Looks like a
>good
>bird to me.
>JJ Sinclair
You mean to tell me you have not visited the web site and looked at the specs.?
For shame. ;-)
Robert Mudd
Ernie Schneider
get them out and have them fly. The praise will come once they prove
themself.
good luck
Ernie
"Apis Gliders" <apisg...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20021016235513...@mb-mr.aol.com...
J.A.M.
any sense. That's what I'm asking.
As for your definitions of high key and low key I don't like having them
fixed because a good 'low key' one day may be too low on another more windy
day, and it depends on the lateral separation from the runway and a number
of other factors.
Thanks,
Jose M. Alvarez
"Keith W" <wit...@btinternet.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:aokeir$5oc$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
Silent Flyer
to RAF Lanbedr. This airfield was used by the training aircraft (Hawks) from
the main training airfield of RAF Valley, for "circuits and bumps". Using
the right radio receiver we could listen to the pilots talking to the
control tower and we were puzzled to hear them calling "high key" or "low
key". Eventually we realised that "high key" approaches started very high
with a steep descent and "low key" approaches were long and shallow.
DB
Bill Dean. <bill...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:10348135...@doris.uk.clara.net...
George Emsden
do with the glider/motor glider debate. When I returned to gliding after an
18 year break this was a new thing for me.
To answer the question.....
The KEY or REFERENCE point(s) as it was told to me (at Lasham) are
respectively:
1) the point at which you decide "I am going to land or I am starting my
circuit" This is the HIGH reference point
2) the start of the base leg - this is the LOW reference point
One thing I did notice after such a long break was that the training was
much more thorough than previously.
One useful tip from Don who sold me my Kestrel was "Lower the undercarriage
@ the High Reference point". You can then forget about and avoid the
ignominy of landing wheel up. I mentioned this to an Astir pilot that I saw
land wheel up at Lasham earlier in the year and he was distracted by another
glider in the circuit.
HTH
George Emsden
Moderator - Kestrel Newsgroup on Yahoo
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kestrel401>
"J.A.M." <yll...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aoj926$2ov...@news1s.iddeo.es...
JJ Sinclair
There was a tragic accident at Minden where the motor glider was over an
abandoned duster strip. The engine didn't start, so he put it back down and
then tried to glide away from the duster strip in a hopeless attempt to make it
back to Minden. He was decapitated on the perimeter fence short of 30. The
lesson I got was to fly like you don't have an engine. Only try and start it
when over a suitable landing area. If it doesn't start, then make your off
field landing and start walking like the rest of us.
JJ Sinclair
Eric Greenwell
apisg...@aol.comnojunk says...
>
> Of course during a save you do not necessarily have to climb right away, just
> not land. So full power usually will not be necessary to sustain flight. In
> most cases you will be able to apply enough power to fly level, let the engine
> warm up and then apply more power to climb away. How much power it takes to
> sustain flight depends on a lot of factors. Gross weight, density altitude,
> engine health, pucker factor etc.
Also, In the retractable motorgliders, the engine retains it's heat
for a long time once it's retracted, so this often reduces the warm
time. In any case, most pilots do very few cold, in-air restarts, so I
doubt it affects the engine's longevity.
Eric Greenwell
i...@tango4.demon.co.uk says...
> Any 'turbo' or self sustaining sailplane goes straight to *flat out*. You
> don't get the chance to warm anything up!
>
> 2 stroke engines are unusual in that they develop their best power when
> cold. 4 strokes like to be mollycoddled and warmed up.
I thought 4 strokes also developed their best power when cold, since
there was less heating of the intake air, thus reducing it's density.
I think the warm-up is related to longevity, not power, but I don't
have any references for this.
Eric Greenwell
jjgl...@aol.com says...
It is my
> considered opinion that viable motor gliders start with an 18 meter wing span.
> Standing by for the ram from the micro-minies.
> JJ Sinclair
The 12 meter Russia AC-5M has over a 1.5 pound lower wing loading than
my 18 meter ASH 26 E. Seems viable!
Doug Easton
higher) when cold. Longevity of each is impacted by the effectiveness of the
lubrication system, hence run a 4 stroke at lower power until the oil is
warm to promote circulation; on a 2 stroke (pre-mix) the lubrication is in
the fuel so waiting for the motor to warm up has dubious merit.
Doug
"Eric Greenwell" <REMOVEeg...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.18179317e...@flashnews.prodigy.net...
ADP
Your tale of the accident at Minden reinforces my point. Thanks.
By the way, I have a Katana MG and do not have to deal with retracting and
extending the engine. I still follow the rules of thumb I mention.
You are absolutely right, fly it like it does not have an engine. Think
"Glider" all of the time.
The key point is defined as abeam the numbers of the runway, on downwind and
at traffic pattern altitude. It is the point in a power aircraft at which
you reduce the power to idle, complete the pattern and land without using
power. When I learned to fly (don't even ask!), you were required to be
able to do this in a power aircraft. In a Glider it is the same point
physically in space and usually the point at which you pull some spoiler and
adjust your pattern to land safely. The manuals of the time depicted this
point with a little "X" that looked like an iron cross. They also
recommended that you be 500 feet above the field at this time. Most
aviators took great pride in being able to reduce power to idle and judge
the landing so that no additional power application was required before
touchdown. Obviously, in a glider, we do this all of the time - altitude
permitting.
The purpose of the process was that you would be able to land at any point
in the approach if the engine quit. When I fly my motor glider, I never use
power to salvage a landing, reasoning that, if power is required, I made an
error in judgment and shouldn't be flying gliders at all. In over 270
landings in my MG, I have never used power whether or not the engine was
running. If you examine the accident statistics, you will see that the
majority of accidents in motor gliders seem to happen because the pilot was
attempting to restart the engine close to the ground rather than using his
or her skill to find a good landing spot. The suggestion to attempt a
restart in a MG only at 2000 ft AGL or above, is a good one. Below that,
concentrate on flying your machine and land under control.
A quick look at the AIM shows me that the FAA no longer calls it the "key
point". Perhaps I'm guilty of "old fashioned thinking" but properly taught
habits can not so easily be undone. After more than 18,000 hours in the air
and who knows how many landings, with no accidents or incidents, I still
revert to what I was taught when I first learned to fly. So far, it has
kept me out of trouble.
So, be careful out there and happy soaring.
Allan
"JJ Sinclair" <jjgl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021017090201...@mb-fi.aol.com...
ADP
Allan
"George Emsden" <yq...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:3dae80b1$0$8512$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
Janos Bauer
Warm up an engine is not only about warm up the lubrication but other
engine parts as well. In cold state the joint gaps are tight and that
could shorted the lifetime of an engine especially at high rpm. A cold 2
stroke could be also unreliable.
I'm really curious how often used these engines for low saves. There
are always complaints on the contests where gliders and motorgliders
race together. I was said that there is no real advance during XC
flights but I can't believe in it:) Especially when I heard a radio
discussion from a DG600M on a tough final glide. He finally opened the
engine and got back to the airport.
Regards,
/Janos
Eric Greenwell
janos...@eth.ericsson.se says...
> I'm really curious how often used these engines for low saves. There
> are always complaints on the contests where gliders and motorgliders
> race together. I was said that there is no real advance during XC
> flights but I can't believe in it:) Especially when I heard a radio
> discussion from a DG600M on a tough final glide. He finally opened the
> engine and got back to the airport.
> Regards,
Any advantage depends on the contest situation and the pilot's
desires. The some of the effects, negative and positive, of carrying
an engine are:
-unballasted wing loading is higher, making the glider slower in weak
conditions, or not able to stay up when a lighter glider could
-to start the engine in-flight means a low save must be terminated
higher than it would otherwise, so there is less chance of "getting
away"
-the greater weight can make retrieving from a field much more
difficult, so, rather than risk the chance of an awkward situation,
the motorglider pilot is more likely to head for an airport as he gets
low, rather than where the lift might be
-for the same reason, the pilot is more likely to start the engine
even higher than absolutely necessary, so he'll have time to deal with
any starting problems
-self-retrieving gets the pilot home sooner than a ground or aero
retrieve, and usually more rested
-if contest rules allow the pilot to use the last GPS fix before he
started the engine as his "landout" point, he can glide off his
height, start the engine (over a safe field if he's smart), then go on
home. An unpowered glider can do the same thing and even get little
further, but will have a retrieve from a field.
My opinion is the highly motivated pilot will choose an unpowered
glider every time, except in contest areas where retrieves are likely
to be lengthy, then a sustainer (but not a self-launching sailplane)
might be the better choice.
tango4
flight from below 500' in a pure sailplane.
It would be a very brave turbo pilot who could get away from the same
altitude. The only way I would even consider it would be if I was on finals
to a very large field. I have made perhaps two saves at 750' agl; both times
with a very good field off the left wingtip. Essentially I was set up in a
circuit and used the downwind leg to fire up the engine.
Cockpit stress levels get high with the increased workload that close to the
ground and when I'm off weekend flying 1000' is engine up time.
Turbo? I wouldn't part with it, its a great idea, but my next one will be in
an 18m ship. :-)
Ian
Dieter
Yes the engines are used not that often for saves!
2 Stroke engines are very robust, the bigger ones are derived from
snowmobiles. I have owned many motorcycles, did any of you ever warm
it up? IMHO they will always outlive their TBO, when you have to tear
them apart, barey broken in at that time.
The wing loading could be a point, the only one, sometimes it is an
advantage,Sports class in strong conditions.
Low saves are always risky, for either. A selflauncher can land in
the same field other gliders can. You need to know your ship your
engine and your skills!
One could go on! Slf launcheng techniques have to be practiced.
Failure rate in starting is rare, unless the pilot mistreats the
engine
If I recall corectly, during the last Worlds, there were several self
launchers, and one or two was winning. We may see more of that in
the future!!
Dieter
Eric Greenwell <REMOVEeg...@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:<MPG.181a0af02...@flashnews.prodigy.net>...
Ernie Schneider
"Dieter" <dbi...@rof.net> wrote in message
news:797f9e41.02101...@posting.google.com...
> Trade offs!
>
> Low saves are always risky, for either. A selflauncher can land in
> the same field other gliders can. You need to know your ship your
> engine and your skills
a selflauncher usually needs a LONGER landing field due to higher weight.
And it is getting worse if you are coming in too fast. So coming in on a
rough and windy day on an unknown landing field, carrying 10km/h extra you
will see the more heavy selflauncher eating up considerably more ground.
>
> One could go on! Self launcheng techniques have to be practiced.
yes, have your procedures learned. Know how long it takes you from decision
to a running engine. In seconds and you will be able to convert in expected
loss of altitude. And know how long it will take you to shut down the engine
and stow it away in case it won't start.
happy flying
Ernie
Ventus CM - FL
Eric Greenwell
dbi...@rof.net says...
> Low saves are always risky, for either. A selflauncher can land in
> the same field other gliders can. You need to know your ship your
> engine and your skills!
Generally true, but it's like landing still carrying half the water
ballast. My ASH 26 E, unballasted, flies at about 8.2 pounds/ft2; an
ASH 26 (no engine) flies at about 6.8 pounds/ft2. This makes for a
slower, easier landing. Of course, most of the time, you don't have to
land, because the engine starts and away you go.
George Emsden
this, he pointed out that the glide angle is 16:1 with the engine erect and
>40:1 as a clean glider.
George Emsden
Moderator - Kestrel Newsgroup on Yahoo
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kestrel401>
"Eric Greenwell" <REMOVEeg...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.181b91cea...@flashnews.prodigy.net...
Dieter
> Cannot speak for the ASW 24E but when talking to a Turbo Ventus owner about
> this, he pointed out that the glide angle is 16:1 with the engine erect and
> >40:1 as a clean glider.
>
> George Emsden
So< He does not need to use spoilers on a some what tighter pattern to be used!
Timothy Taylor
"Ernie Schneider" <e...@cyberlink.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:YPBs9.1341$z3r6.3...@news2.randori.com...
This case also assumes that the engine will not start, you must also plan
for the whole system to fail and leave you with an engine partially
extracted/retracted. There are many types of failures that can occur when
you are working with the system. This is why it is recommended to decide
to use the engine at a high enough altitude to handle all possible problems
and still be able to focus on the landing if there is a failure. With the
engine out you are nearly flying a full spoilers landing pattern. You have
to work backwards from worst case to decide when the engine needs to come
out to be safe.
If I have been in the air for several hours and at altitude (cold engine) I
use a rule of 1800 - 2000 feet agl. Mostly I airport hop with the plan to
land and relaunch. This way I keep my low altitude flying skills in good
shape and can still use the advantages of the motorglider to save the need
for a retrieve crew home.
I have practiced in air restarts at 1000 feet with very little loss of
altitude, but this is with a warm engine and over my home airfield.
Tim
Over my home
Eric Greenwell
> This case also assumes that the engine will not start, you must also plan
> for the whole system to fail and leave you with an engine partially
> extracted/retracted. There are many types of failures that can occur when
> you are working with the system. This is why it is recommended to decide
> to use the engine at a high enough altitude to handle all possible problems
> and still be able to focus on the landing if there is a failure. With the
> engine out you are nearly flying a full spoilers landing pattern. You have
> to work backwards from worst case to decide when the engine needs to come
> out to be safe.
Perhaps you are speaking about a particular motorglider, like the
Ventus sustainer models. Not all self-launchers are like "nearly
flying a full spoilers landing pattern" with the engine out. The newer
generation of DG, Schleicher, and Schempp-Hirth, with the "buried"
engine, do not lose as much performance as the earlier "engine on a
stick" motorgliders did. For example, my ASH 26 E has over 20:1 with
the propeller out, and seems much like a Blanik L13 in the pattern.
Spoilers are still required to land, but not as much, and a standard
pattern can be flown. In this respect, the newer motorgliders are
safer than the older style.
For the older motorgliders, Tim's comments are very appropriate.