Aerotow without Wing Wheels/Runner
Eric June
wheels. You wish to get an aerotow home but there are no wing runners
available. What techniques can be used to takeoff in this situation? I
have heard that the propwash from the tow plane might be sufficient to
get the tip up. True or false? Also, has anyone experimented with
"temporary" wing tip wheels that might be attached for such a purpose?
--
Regards,
Eric June
er...@kudonet.com
Hang Gliding Page: http://home.kudonet.com/~ericj/hang.htm
Raul Blacksten
this with and without wing tip wheels, No problems!
Eric June wrote:
--
***************************************************************
RAUL BLACKSTEN Wishing you green air!
Vintage Sailplane Association Archivist
ra...@earthlink.net
<http://www.earthlink.net/~raulb>
"It may not be smart or correct, but it's one of the things which make us
what we are" --Red Green, The New Red Green Show
Steven B. Wood
hay. Offset the tow plane to aim the prop wash over the down wing.
Throttle up with the brakes on and the wing comes up nicely. Release
the brake and you are off. Be ready to release and stay on the controls
agressively.
SBW
Bill Tisdale
2-33, and the L-13.. it's a piece of cake in the SGS 1-26.. don't even have
to think about it.. but then again.. the 1-25 flies in the prop wash.. LOL
Bill
John Giddy
>
> Assume that you are down on a remote airstrip in a glider without wing
> wheels. You wish to get an aerotow home but there are no wing runners
> available. What techniques can be used to takeoff in this situation? I
> have heard that the propwash from the tow plane might be sufficient to
> get the tip up. True or false? Also, has anyone experimented with
> "temporary" wing tip wheels that might be attached for such a purpose?
Our very experienced tuggie has a technique wich gets the wing up as
quickly as possible. He applies the tug's brakes after taking up all
slack in the rope, and opens the throttle to take-off revs, then
releases the brakes. The resulting fast acceleration gets the wing up
almost as quickly as a winch launch !
Regarding temporary wing wheels, our DG300 has wing tip skids with a
hole (presumably for tie-down purposes originally) the previous owner
made a wing tip wheel using a 3 inch buggy wheel in a simple aluminium
frame which fits around the skid, with a pin and safety pin which passes
through the frame and the hole in the skid. Works very well, but on
grass surfaces. it is not really necessary (short grass of course !).
--
John Giddy ( ) ) Mangalore Gliding Club
5/287 Barkers Rd ) ) ) http://www.gfa.org.au/vic/mgc/
Kew, Victoria, 3101 ( ) ) _
Australia ( ) '------8------'
Mike Schuster
Eric June <ej...@intuitive-data.com> wrote in article
<0998070215202...@intuitive-data.com>...
> Assume that you are down on a remote airstrip in a glider without wing
> wheels. You wish to get an aerotow home but there are no wing runners
> available. What techniques can be used to takeoff in this situation? I
> have heard that the propwash from the tow plane might be sufficient to
> get the tip up. True or false? Also, has anyone experimented with
> "temporary" wing tip wheels that might be attached for such a purpose?
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Eric June
> er...@kudonet.com
> Hang Gliding Page: http://home.kudonet.com/~ericj/hang.htm
>
>
>
Well, first, it's worth trying really hard to find a wing runner. Don't be
shy.
If that doesn't work, then usually you will find that you have a light
downwind situation on your hands. Go find a one or two foot long stick
that you can shove into the ground. Cock the low wing aft and lay its
tip on the tip of the stick. Hook yourself up and climb in gently, so as
not to bump the tip off the stick.
Do your preflight checklist TWICE. You're bound to forget something
if you don't, because of the distractions. Then hold your breath and
be ready to release EARLY, if necessary.
This will work well most of the time. The first time it doesn't you'll
vow to try harder next time finding a wing runner.
Regards,
Mike Schuster
Robert Youdan
to tear fabric or de-laminate fibreglass! Also, turn the glider a little
toward the down wing so that when the tug starts pulling, it swings the
glider straight, accelerating the down wing in the process.
Rob
--
Please remove "XXSPAMXX" before replying by e-mail
Robert Youdan
I have done many aero tow retrieves from paddocks (from both ends of the
rope) and recommend that unless you are in a really crappy paddock (ie long
grass), a wingrunner can often be more trouble then he/she's worth. Unless
they have seen how it's done, it's very hard to ensure that they let go when
you want them to. If you are SURE they understand, then use them by all
means, but think about how you do things at your own club. Do you get
strangers off the street to come in and run your wings without having ever
seen an aerotow launch? I doubt it! I have seen some very strange (ugly)
launches when a "briefed" wing runner "held the wing" like he was told...
and held it... and held it... and held it.... I think you see my point.
Good luck!
Larry Goddard
T. Duck wrote:
> The way it's taught at our club, in Blanik L-13s, is to cock the low
> wing about 20 degrees back. When the towplane first moves the airplane,
> the low wing will move in an arc, and get lift quickly, allowing you to
> pick it up with the aileron quickly. In my experience, it comes up in
> about two feet, usually before you've got much forward motion going.
This is not very effective on many more modern gliders with CG hooks only.
--
Larry Goddard
"01" LS-3a USA
Marc Whisman
Banning yesterday. Able to find a wing-runner Gary? (hee hee)
--
-Marc
Julie Benson
U.S. than in your average single-place fiberglass, and I don't know
which type of glider the writer is concerned about . . .BUT
I fly a 15-m glider with small ailerons and rudder--dragging a tip is
not really an option. It's gonna stay down (especially if you have the
wrong wing down to start with, given towplane propwash)
I have used the 'use the propwash to bring the wing up and then tell
the tow pilot to go ahead' several times with great success (and to the
great surprise of the towpilots in each case who never had thought of
it). . .but each of these cases already had at least a 10 knot wind in
my favor and no crosswind. Also, each of these were 'big'
towplanes--182s and Pawnees. Haven't tried it with Scouts/Supercubs
Easy enough to try at your home airport with your home towplane before
you run into the problem. If the wing doesn't come up, just call in
your friendly wing runner.
Cheers---Julie
Jeffrey A. Young
Robert Youdan <r...@event-horizonsXXNOSPAMXX.com.au> wrote:
>Make sure your aileron doesn't hit the ground in this situation, it is easy
>to tear fabric or de-laminate fibreglass! Also, turn the glider a little
>toward the down wing so that when the tug starts pulling, it swings the
>glider straight, accelerating the down wing in the process.
Exactly opposite of the way I was taught.
Some planes are going to yaw strongly toward the down
wing when the roll starts, depending on grass height,
wing weight, hookup location, and tug strength. To
compensate, you may want to turn the plane slightly
*away* from the down-wing side (down wing slightly
forward). Yes, a tug hooked on the nose will contribute
even more yaw. But I would argue that the up wing with
an up aileron is going to be more effective in helping
to level the wings anyway, since it is more likely to
get the full effect of any wind and prop wash.
In either case,
1) make the *upwind* wing the down wing if at all possible
(holding it down with aileron until wing-leveling time, if
necessary);
2) if there is not enough wind to level the wings before
the roll starts, put in *full* opposite aileron *before*
the roll starts *until* that wing comes up (of course);
3) *full* opposite rudder *before* the roll starts, to
compensate for the dragging wing, *until* the wing comes
up;
4) ready to release at *any moment* before or during
the roll.
I had no problems in training nor in the one time I used
this on a retrieve, all in G103, nose hook.
Recommend trying at home with an instructor before you
get caught out though.
(At home, barring strong crosswind, don't put the wing
down on the same side as obstacles (waiting planes, etc.)!)
Jeff
Albin O. Schreiter
i.e. tire, wingstand etc. under one wing. With a Pawnee towing the
acceleration is fast enough to keep the wings fairly level.
On Sun, 02 Aug 1998 22:21:22 GMT, ej...@intuitive-data.com (Eric June)
Robert Youdan
said turn a little towards tha wing which is down (on the ground) for
whatever reason.
Rob
--
Please remove "XXSPAMXX" before replying by e-mail
Jeffrey A. Young wrote in message <6q5fuh$m...@ultra0.rdrc.rpi.edu>...
Art Clark
Albin O. Schreiter wrote in message <35c65d96.15420591@news>...
>I have done this many times in a LS6 by putting a suitable object,
>i.e. tire, wingstand etc. under one wing. With a Pawnee towing the
>acceleration is fast enough to keep the wings fairly level.
>
After landing at an unattended airport I gathered several tumbleweeds and
propped up both wings. Combined with the "hold brakes - run up the towplane
engine" method it worked very well. Tug was a Piper with 150 hp.
Art Clark
m...@ptc.com
als...@ican.net (Albin O. Schreiter) wrote:
> I have done this many times in a LS6 by putting a suitable object,
I suppose I've done my share of aero-retrieves with no line crew.
The most important thing of course is to keep the glider going
straight until sufficient airspeed is gained. With a CG hook
this is definately a problem. The glider will tend to pivot
around the wing tip which is down.
My Dart had a unique hook location about halfway between the
wheel and nose. Unassisted takeoffs were possible. I held the
stick back to keep the tail down with full aileron and full rudder
until the wing came up.
In my PW-5 I'd just as soon take off without a wing runner as with
one. The nosewheel and nose hook allow the glider to track absolutely
straight and the wing comes right up.
I would say the hook location is most likely the significant factor
in attempting this.
Mark
PW-5 N4373K
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Eric June
What a great idea! I was considering the ole' "prop the wing up with
something" technique, but didn't want to leave that something behind as
a hazard to other aircraft. The tumbleweed will likely be swept away by
the propwash or the wind, so that ends that concern. Thanks!
Dr. Christian Ortner
are flown by aerotow from Innsbruck to Antalya to WAG glider aerobatics
championships and we never had wing runners. The glider was a SWIFT
aeroatic glider with very effective ailerons, but it works with normal
gliders too.
Christian Ortner och...@aol.com
Eric June <ej...@intuitive-data.com> schrieb im Beitrag
<0998070215202...@intuitive-data.com>...
> Assume that you are down on a remote airstrip in a glider without wing
> wheels. You wish to get an aerotow home but there are no wing runners
> available. What techniques can be used to takeoff in this situation? I
> have heard that the propwash from the tow plane might be sufficient to
> get the tip up. True or false? Also, has anyone experimented with
> "temporary" wing tip wheels that might be attached for such a purpose?
>
Mike Paley
jy>Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
jy>In article <35c56...@nexus.comcen.com.au>,
jy>Robert Youdan <r...@event-horizonsXXNOSPAMXX.com.au> wrote:
jy>>Make sure your aileron doesn't hit the ground in this situation,
jy>>it is easy to tear fabric or de-laminate fibreglass! Also, turn
jy>>the glider a little toward the down wing so that when the tug
jy>>starts pulling, it swings the glider straight, accelerating the
jy>>down wing in the process.
jy>Exactly opposite of the way I was taught.
jy>Some planes are going to yaw strongly toward the down
jy>wing when the roll starts, depending on grass height,
jy>wing weight, hookup location, and tug strength. To
jy>compensate, you may want to turn the plane slightly
jy>*away* from the down-wing side (down wing slightly
jy>forward).
I agree with the fist version and not the second. In the second case, you'll
not only have the drag on the down wing but also the mis-alignment of the
tow-rope to swinfg the glider round. In the first version, those two effects
will oppose each other, meaning the glider will tend to go straighter, but
not in line with the tow-rope until the wing is off the ground.
--
Comm again, Mike.
I must go now, I can only stand reality in small doses and With a dial-up account, reality is costly
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Robert Johnson
Snip, snip
My Ventus sits on main and tail wheel, with about 25 lbs. downforce on
the tail. Upon acceleration, with the cg hook just forward of the main,
the ship tries to rotate, forcing the fixed tail wheel down against the
runway even harder.
Therefore, the ship will go through whichever set of runway lights it's
initially pointed at, regardless of the crosswind, and whether or not
I've got a wing runner.
In my situation, I've found it best to line up straight down the runway
and be prepared for the swing into the wind when the tail starts to come
up. Then, both ships crab into the wind, with the sailplane lining up
behind the towplane as it leaves the ground.
Without a runner, my down wing comes up in about the first three or four
feet.
YMMV
Bob Johnson 1F
Robert Youdan
/ mainwheel / tailwheel combinations there are out there.
My apologies. We should all make sure we clarify what layout we are talking
about when we try to make a point.
F.L. Whiteley
several times on aerotow retrieves:
Opposite rudder (yaw) is used to lift the down wing (and drop the up wing).
This works with nose or CG hooks.
Leave the ailerons centered until the wing breaks ground.
Once the wing is clear, ailerons are used normally.
The AOA of many gliders on the ground is generally too great for the
ailerons to be very effective in most cases. Trying to lift the wings with
aileron may result in the aileron dragging on the surface or in the grass.
Both are undesirable, working against getting the wing flying or causing
damage.
Rudder effectiveness is little affected by the AOA while on the ground.
Admittedly, some gliders have ineffectual rudders, but the secondary effect
of using the rudder(yaw) is roll, increasing lift on the opposite wing and
decreasing lift on the near wing, leaving the ailerons neutral. The moment
you apply ailerons, you reduce this effect as the rudder is fighting
adverse yaw.
Most of my use has been in gliders >15m span. Roll is a bit slower, but
the effect is more pronounced as the tips are further apart so the relative
tip acceleration/deceleration is greater.
I received my extended training from my former UK CFI/partner after failing
to lift the down wing of our SHK out of the grass and ending up
ground-looped after the wing got into the standing barley field that
bordered our runway. A couple of goes in the two-seater convinced me. I
don't think unassisted takeoff training in a 2-33 or L-13 with big wheels
compares very favorably with doing this in a glider with a small skid plate
at the tip. In the absence of having something to prop the wing a bit, a
powerful tow is useful. Running up the engine with the brakes on is okay,
but I usually like to see where I'm going for the first few feet. More
often than not, a good part of the initial takeoff run in these conditions
is through a great cloud of dust and debris. It's going to be different
than what you practice at the club.
Frank Whiteley
Colorado Soaring Assn.
Mackfly
without wing runner. I've used it, it worked just fine for my plane. Mack
Eric June
a variance of opinion on the proper technique.
Today I learned first-hand how to accomplish the aerotow takeoff without
wing wheels or a wing runner, at least for this particular glider. I
put my down wing slightly forward which seemed prudent given the
crosswind from the raised wing's side. The down wing's tendency to turn
the glider toward it would be counteracted by the crosswind's tendency
to weather vane the glider into the wind (away from the down wing).
Worked like a charm and I got off with no problem.
Now if this stable airmass would just move out of the area, I might be
able to avoid the situation entirely! :-)
--
Regards,
Eric June
er...@kudonet.com
SZD-59 "SE"
Roland Roelofs
Bill Tisdale heeft geschreven in bericht
<35C52820...@ix.netcom.com>...
>This should be part of all student glider training.. done it in both the
SGS
>2-33, and the L-13.. it's a piece of cake in the SGS 1-26.. don't even
have
>to think about it.. but then again.. the 1-25 flies in the prop wash.. LOL
>
>Bill
>
>Eric June wrote:
>
>> wheels. You wish to get an aerotow home but there are no wing runners
>> available. What techniques can be used to takeoff in this situation? I
>> have heard that the propwash from the tow plane might be sufficient to
>> get the tip up. True or false? Also, has anyone experimented with
>> "temporary" wing tip wheels that might be attached for such a purpose?
>>
Strange ideas you people have, I always thought that safety comes first. If
there is no one to get you back, why dont you call your recovery team so you
can drive back safely :)
Vorsanger1
4 outlandings in remote airstrips in California and Nevada, where recovery was
by tow plane sent by the base operator. Never expected to have a recovery team
fetch me. Didn't have one. Nothing strange about this issue, only different.
Cheers, Charles :-)
Bert Willing
Vorsanger1 wrote:
Wing dropping? Which wing dropping? If it comes to crab our glider into the
hangar, our Calif's twin gear is real pain. If it comes to the wing runner issue,
it's all big smile...
--
Bert Willing
Caproni Calif D-6600
Visit the airfield of La Motte du Caire in the French Alps:
http://www.decollage.org/la_motte/