KR-03A Puchatek VS Blanik L-23
jeff rothman
these two gliders compare in the areas of flight characteristics,
maintainability, ruggedness, ergonomics etc?
-Jeff
Steve Brown
The KR-03 (was Puchatek) has great visibility as well as a roomier cockpit.
It's extremely rugged as well. However, ground handling is more work. You
must move the glider around using the handles on the empennage. The only
things I didn't care fore were the fact that the wheel break handle is like
the tow release handle, and is on the floor. Also, it requires a lot of
rudder. It doesn't feel as balanced as a Blanik. But, if you can keep the
KR-03 coordinated, you can keep pretty much anything coordinated.
These are my own experiences, so take them for what they're worth.
Steve
"jeff rothman" <roth...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:NCs3a.351196$HG.59...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
Wojciech Ścigała
> We are considering buying either an L-23 or a KR03 (now Perigrine). How do
> these two gliders compare in the areas of flight characteristics,
> maintainability, ruggedness, ergonomics etc?
I don't know about L-23, but we have a Puchatek (Winnie the Pooh in
polish) and it's an excellent glider for passenger flights. Front seat
is very comfortable with lot of space (espacially on sides), getting in
is very easy, too. Very (I repeat, very!) effective airbrakes allows
pilot to land precisely in all wind conditions.
It does not like spinning - Puchatek quits every spin even if you try to
hold it in spin. There are special tail-weights for spins training.
Puchatek is made more like a plane then glider - all metal, with parts'
connections of these commonly used in planes. I don't wish anybody
disassembling Puchatek after off-landing.
As for flying characteristics, please ask me in about 2-3 months, last
season I almost started flying it, now I want to fly Puchatek just as
the season starts. :)
PS. All what I said concers the first Puchateks made in Poland. I don't
know what modifications were introduced after Americans have bought the
licence.
--
Wojtuś.net __|__
FidoNet: 2:484/47 `--------o--------'
PFRatzlaff
predecessor of the Peregrine. Later, I also accumulated some time in a Blanik
L-23. Here are my impressions and recollections of both:
The Blanik is quite a bit more responsive than the Peregrine. That said, the
Peregrine (Krosno) is a very pleasant glider to fly-very good trainer.
Hopefully, the Peregrine has been redesigned in one aspect-differential
ailerons. The Krosno didn't have them, and was subject to quite a bit of
adverse yaw, and required a firm rudder input when initiating a turn. The
previous poster was right, if you can coordinate a Krosno you can coordinate
any glider. However, the slip was very easy and effective.
At my weight, (240) in the front seat with an instructor in the back, the
Krosno would not really exhibit a stall break, just straight ahead, wings level
mush. The L-23 will break vigorously and drop a wing at stall.
Both are pretty sturdy ships. The L-23 just has a little more personality.
Chris Rollings
cockpit (admittedly better than the L13, but that's
not saying much) and climbing in and out is not that
easy either. The Puchatek/Krosno has excellent visibility
from the rear and entry and exit is fairly easy.
The Puchatec rear (and front seats are very comfortable
by training machine standards, the L23 much less so.
The Puchatek requires more rudder to co-ordinate aileron
inputs than does the L23. This is more the result
of the constant cord wing than any lack of differential
ailerons and is what happens when you let cost conscious
production engineers into the design shop.
The L23 spins readily, the Puchatek is very reluctant
to spin at normal C of G positions. You have to decide
for yourself which you want, safe early solos or the
ability to teach spinning.
The Puchatek is a generally more robust construction.
Chris Rollings
Catherine Conway
Our Puchatek spins like a top at all weights. I've been instructing in ours
for about 7 years. Its almost as good as the old Bocian it replaced.
I've not flown a L23 but the old L13 also spins well. I would have said the
Puchatek is easier to spin. I'm confused as to why others have had problems
with it.
-Cath
Catherine Conway
Our Puchatek is a great machine to teach spins in at all weights. I've been
instructing in ours for 7 years and its almost as good as the Bocian it
replaced.
I've not flown the L23, just the L13 Blanik and that also spins well
although I think the Puchatek is easier to get into a spin (not that the
Blanik is hard).
Must admit I'm confused why others are having problems, including the Polish
post. No kits on ours. Its serial number 04-03 I think with a nose skid.
-Cath
Wojciech Ścigała
> I've not flown a L23 but the old L13 also spins well. I would have said the
> Puchatek is easier to spin. I'm confused as to why others have had problems
> with it.
I didn't say it do not spin, only it quits spins by itself very
promptly. Of course this behaviour depends mainly on CoG. If your crew
is light, Puchatek may spin more easily and it will stay in spin without
using tail-weights.
Mark Newton
> I didn't say it do not spin, only it quits spins by itself very
> promptly. Of course this behaviour depends mainly on CoG. If your crew
> is light, Puchatek may spin more easily and it will stay in spin without
> using tail-weights.
I'm an instructor with Catherine's club too; I've held it in a spin
for six turns with a pair of 90kg pilots before, and we've never used
tail weights.
Regarding several comments in this thread about differential ailerons:
Check chap 8 of your flight manual. As far as I know, KR-03A's have
always had differential ailerons.
The rudder is very heavy, though. I can remember often thinking
that the instructor was operating the rudder during my pre-solo
training, because I needed to put so much effort in to moving
the pedals. But no, that's just the way the Puchatek is.
- mark
Chris Rollings
about 5 years ago), spun about the same as the average
ASK 13. At normal weights it would depart and autorotate,
but generally self recovered into a spiral dive after
1/2 to 1 turn, even with pro-spin controls.
It's not unusual for different aircraft of the same
type to differ quite widely in spinning behaviour.
I know of at least one ASK 21 that spins like a top,
despite that fact that most of them won't spin at all,
at normal weights. Usual reasons for the difference
are, differences in elevator deflections, C of G variations,
usually caused by repairs, but sometimes built in from
manufacture, different tailpane (or even wing) incidences,
again usually as a result of repairs but sometimes
built in from the start and occasionally distorted
wing shapes (again usually from repairs).
Having only flown one Puchatek, for any length of time,
I've no real idea which of the two (Cathy's or the
one I've flown) is more representative.
Chris Rollings
At 06:18 17 February 2003, Catherine Conway wrote:
>???
>
>Our Puchatek spins like a top at all weights. I've
>been instructing in ours
>for about 7 years. Its almost as good as the old Bocian
>it replaced.
>
>I've not flown a L23 but the old L13 also spins well.
> I would have said the
>Puchatek is easier to spin. I'm confused as to why
>others have had problems
>with it.
>
Janusz Kesik
however the Bocian does everything more gentle.
The Puchatek flies great, and shall be a nice trainer. Also it's metal body makes it more damage
resistant, and easier to repair.
The airbrakes are about of Puchacz's effectiveness - very good, but the weak point is that You have
to leave the airbrakes alone in order to operate wheel brake which is known to all who had flown
Puchacz too.
> I don't know about L-23, but we have a Puchatek (Winnie the Pooh in
> polish) and it's an excellent glider for passenger flights. Front seat
> is very comfortable with lot of space (espacially on sides), getting in
> is very easy, too. Very (I repeat, very!) effective airbrakes allows
> pilot to land precisely in all wind conditions.
Well, it will if ordered, however it can't be compared with Puchacz. I believe that in case of
spinning it's somewhere inbetween Puchacz (which spins well), and Bocian (which refuses to do that
usually).
> It does not like spinning - Puchatek quits every spin even if you try to
> hold it in spin. There are special tail-weights for spins training.
>
Just like in any metal glider. Consider that Puchatek is just a trainer, not intended for frequent
outlandings, just like the racers.
> Puchatek is made more like a plane then glider - all metal, with parts'
> connections of these commonly used in planes. I don't wish anybody
> disassembling Puchatek after off-landing.
Mine impressions: see above.
> As for flying characteristics, please ask me in about 2-3 months, last
> season I almost started flying it, now I want to fly Puchatek just as
> the season starts. :)
>
From what I have seen, there are not many changes except for replacing skid with a wheel.
How about connecting airbrakes with wheel brake, just like in Bocian? How about that dear designers?
:)
> PS. All what I said concers the first Puchateks made in Poland. I don't
> know what modifications were introduced after Americans have bought the
> licence.
Regards,
--
Janusz Kesik
janusz...@gazeta.pl
visit www.leszno.pl - home of WGC 2003
Janusz Kesik
will be clumsy spinner.
If one had practised in a Bocian, then Puchatek will show up as a acro glider then. :)
Regards,
--
Janusz Kesik
janusz...@gazeta.pl
visit www.leszno.pl - home of WGC 2003
> I've not flown a L23 but the old L13 also spins well. I would have said the
Wojciech Ścigała
> I'm an instructor with Catherine's club too; I've held it in a spin
> for six turns with a pair of 90kg pilots before, and we've never used
> tail weights.
Maybe that's just individual 'problem' of our Puchatek?
I'm no 90kg so I need ask somebody else to check it again in spring :)
Lenti
I have been flying on Puchatek for many years in our club in Poland
and have very good opinion about this construction. It is ideal for
basic training. Prefect visibility from first and rear cabin, but it
is quite noisy in it on high speeds. It is rather hard to assamble and
disassamble it but it's nice filling flying it. Very comfortible
seats, perfect for long hours termal fhligts and cross-coutry. :-)
Ozog Piotr
Janusz Kesik
represented by the Puchacz and Bocian. I believe Puchatek's newer airfoil is the cause why it has
similar L/D to Bocian. :) I think it's similar to the Pirat if we talk about noise, of course
disregarding the sounds of rolling can during the ground roll :)
Regards,
--
Janusz Kesik
janusz...@gazeta.pl
>Prefect visibility from first and rear cabin, but it
tjward
"Janusz Kesik" <janusz...@gazeta.pl> wrote in message
news:b30lsa$5f2$1...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl...
Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever considered putting a fairing over
that spar attach fitting at the wing root? I'm assuming it's a spar attach
fitting. The metal chunk that comes out of the top surface of the wing and
goes into the fuselage.
It seems like fairing that in would help L/D and noise as well, though I
suppose it might affect the stall break behavior.
From reading the Johnson report, it seems as if assembling/disassembling it
is a major undertaking anyway, so how much more trouble could a fairing be?
Tim Ward
Charles Petersen
Barry Aviation in Florida. I visited because I am interested in a
teaching plane for use with the disabled (a Canadian division of
Freedom's Wings). I have a fair number of Blanik hours and like them.
The Blanik is sexier, but like the blind date that is touted for her
'great personality', the Krosno came well recommended. Unlike that
proverbial blind date, this is one to MARRY! The rudders are a shade
heavier than the Blanik's, but the coordination is so good you can fly
aggressive Dutch Rolls at full aileron deflection with the nose held
true to a point (try that in a Grob 103). The access is amazing, with
a low waist line on the cockpit and far more width than the Blanik.
Visibility is unrestricted from the rear seat, and unsurpassed from
the front. The interior is sensibly spartan for a club ship, but the
seats are very comfortable. I did have to hold it in to a spin, but
was flying without the offered tail weight to enhance spinning. It
was a delight to fly, truly. I didn't like the brakes (what brakes?)
but the drum is being replaced with disc brakes on the new models.
Then there are the air brakes; these are fantastic. I have done most
of my instructing in 2-33's (our club has 7 of them as our primary
trainers), and like that huge fuselage sideways when recovering from
the 'fly by' that is often the result of the first attempt at rope
breaks, but with these air brakes I can envision seldom needing a
slip. The Barrys are also working on a fairing for the spar
attachment, and winglets (huge reduction in induced drag on a wing
with such a large chord at the tip), but I'd be delighted to own one
as is. The Blanik is a prettier plane, but buy the Krosno.