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Skysight in flight on IOS

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John Cochrane

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Feb 22, 2022, 7:37:56 PM2/22/22
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Has anyone figured out how to see skysight maps in flight on apple iPhone or iPad? The map can look great before takeoff, but safari tries to reload it in flight with no internet connection, and you lose the map. I've tried airplane mode, turning off cell data and wifi, so far with no luck. Has anyone gotten this to work?
Thanks
John Cochrane BB

Eric Greenwell

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Feb 22, 2022, 8:04:23 PM2/22/22
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Have you tried a different browser? Opera, Edge, Chrome, Firefox? I'm told some work
better than others.

Maybe someone is willing and able to write an app, which can avoid the limitations of
doing it in a browser. Matthew Scutter, Skysight developer, says he doesn't have time to
do an app, but he might be able to work with someone that's going to do the heavy lifting,
and save them some time and effort. I've got an iPhone 6 that's waiting for an app, even
if I have to buy it. In the meantime, I'm using a Galaxy S8 on loan, which works well with
Skysight. It's like a miracle in blue wave :^)

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

jfitch

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Feb 22, 2022, 8:58:34 PM2/22/22
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John, I though this worked?

From the webpage on your iPhone, touch the menu bar on the upper left corner. This drops down the selection of forecasts. Some of them have the little cloud icon with an arrow inside - these are downloadable. Touch that icon to download. The cloud will be replaced by a check mark. Save as many as you want. It will persist even when cell and WiFi are lost. It will even persist between application runs (kill the app and restart it) except that the background map data is lost.

I think this will only work if you have made a Skysight desktop icon. To do that, access the Skysight website and get to the forecast page. Now touch the Sharing icon at the bottom of the screen, scroll down in the choices until you find Add to Home Screen and touch that. This will make a desktop icon that you can use as you would with any app.

It will not update in flight with no internet connection of course, but you can view the whole day as it was when downloaded.

Eric Greenwell

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Feb 23, 2022, 8:56:50 AM2/23/22
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What model iPhone are you using? It does not work for me on my iPhone 6 Plus.

Paul Remde

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Feb 23, 2022, 9:11:46 AM2/23/22
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That is a very cool tip! Thanks! I hadn't noticed that capability previously. It works nicely. It is a bummer that the PFD map can't be downloaded, but XC speed and convergence and wave maps at different altitudes can be downloaded nicely!

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

Jeffrey Resnik

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Feb 23, 2022, 9:13:49 AM2/23/22
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SeeYou Mobile is another option for some of the Skylight maps.. It has a Skylight integration. Use of the APP is included with a SeeYou desktop subscription.

JPR

Jeffrey Resnik

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Feb 23, 2022, 9:14:47 AM2/23/22
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Correction SeeYou Navigator.

JPR

Eric Greenwell

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Feb 23, 2022, 9:35:50 AM2/23/22
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On 2/23/2022 6:14 AM, Jeffrey Resnik wrote:
> Correction SeeYou Navigator.
>
> JPR
Navigator may be a good choice in the near future, but for now it does not cache the
forecasts for the day before you fly; instead, it depends on getting cell phone coverage
in flight to update the forecasts. Many areas do not have reliable inflight coverage,
unfortunately, including my area: I tried it on my Galaxy S8, unsuccessfully, but SkySight
worked well. Very(!) useful in blue wave, and I hope it will also be as useful during the
thermal season.

Muttley

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Feb 23, 2022, 10:03:06 AM2/23/22
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On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 2:11:46 PM UTC, Paul Remde wrote:
> That is a very cool tip! Thanks! I hadn't noticed that capability previously. It works nicely. It is a bummer that the PFD map can't be downloaded, but XC speed and convergence and wave maps at different altitudes can be downloaded nicely!
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 7:58:34 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
> > John, I though this worked?
> >
For Paul Remde

Paul could you confirm that Skysight will also work with these tweaks on your TRIPLTEK Pro 8 ???

Muttley

jfitch

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Feb 23, 2022, 12:36:45 PM2/23/22
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I'm using an iPhone12Pro, however it isn't really dependent on the iPhone, rather the version of iOS. I'll try it on an older version if I can get it running again. It has worked for at least the last several years.

jfitch

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Feb 23, 2022, 12:38:28 PM2/23/22
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While the base map does not persist between application starts, it does persist as long as the application is running, even in the background. It only seems to cache the portion viewable or perhaps recently viewed.

Jeffrey Resnik

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Feb 23, 2022, 12:48:54 PM2/23/22
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Version 2.3.0 released yesterday for SeeYou Navigator on IOS lists the following in the version change log. I have not verified whether this includes weather downloads.

Off line viewing of maps.

https://naviter.com/seeyou-navigator-oudie-n-changelog/


jfitch

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Feb 23, 2022, 2:11:30 PM2/23/22
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Eric, what version of iOS is on that phone? And are you able to make a home screen icon but Skysight does not download, or cannot make a home screen icon? The home screen icon facility has existed apparently since iOS 2.0, though the menu for it has moved around a bit. For example in iOS 11 and 12, you will tap the share icon while viewing the webpage, you will see three choices at the bottom for bookmarks. What is not obvious is that menu is a sideways scrolling menu, swipe it to the left to reveal the Add to Homescreen choice. I tried this on my iPhone 5s running iOS 11 and it worked, as did Skysight downloads.
On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 5:56:50 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric Greenwell

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Feb 23, 2022, 8:32:18 PM2/23/22
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I've have put an icon on the home screen, Skysight runs from it, I can download the 3k
wave forecast, put it in airplane mode, and it "works". I can view the wave layers I
downloaded, pick different times, all good, but after 20 minutes, some of the forecasts no
longer appear, and after 30-40 minutes, all the forecasts are gone. Do the same thing with
my Galaxy S8, and the forecasts are there all day, into the evening.

I've tried other browsers on the phone - no luck.

jfitch

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Feb 24, 2022, 11:11:23 AM2/24/22
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I tried loading it last evening, then turned on Airplane mode which kills net access. This morning, some 10 hours later the map and data are still there looking just like they did. One thing you might try is Settings>Safari>Downloads>Remove Downloaded Items> and change that to Manually. I will try it on the 5s with iOS 12 today.

Eric Greenwell

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Feb 24, 2022, 3:58:31 PM2/24/22
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I can't find the Downloads menu item on the 6 Plus, using iOS 12.5.5.

On 2/24/2022 8:11 AM, jfitch wrote:
> I tried loading it last evening, then turned on Airplane mode which kills net access. This morning, some 10 hours later the map and data are still there looking just like they did. One thing you might try is Settings>Safari>Downloads>Remove Downloaded Items> and change that to Manually. I will try it on the 5s with iOS 12 today.
> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 5:32:18 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> I've have put an icon on the home screen, Skysight runs from it, I can download the 3k
>> wave forecast, put it in airplane mode, and it "works". I can view the wave layers I
>> downloaded, pick different times, all good, but after 20 minutes, some of the forecasts no
>> longer appear, and after 30-40 minutes, all the forecasts are gone. Do the same thing with
>> my Galaxy S8, and the forecasts are there all day, into the evening.
>>
>> I've tried other browsers on the phone - no luck.
>> On 2/23/2022 11:11 AM, jfitch wrote:
>>> Eric, what version of iOS is on that phone? And are you able to make a home screen icon but Skysight does not download, or cannot make a home screen icon? The home screen icon facility has existed apparently since iOS 2.0, though the menu for it has moved around a bit. For example in iOS 11 and 12, you will tap the share icon while viewing the webpage, you will see three choices at the bottom for bookmarks. What is not obvious is that menu is a sideways scrolling menu, swipe it to the left to reveal the Add to Homescreen choice. I tried this on my iPhone 5s running iOS 11 and it worked, as did Skysight downloads.


jfitch

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Feb 25, 2022, 1:24:25 AM2/25/22
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I can't find it either on iOS 12. Might be hidden somewhere else. However I did try downloading the Convergence map this morning on my iPhone 5s, running iOS 12. It is now more than 12 hours later and the map is still there. Also shows up as having cached 20 MB of data in storage. Something we are missing....

Eric Greenwell

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Feb 25, 2022, 8:20:21 AM2/25/22
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People's experience has been "details matter", but the which details of the phones remain
unknown. Matthew says he has not promoted this feature in SkySight because of these
anomalies, which would make supporting it very time consuming. He did do a major bug fix
recently, which expanded the number of phones that can be used, and improved the
reliability overall.

I'll redo my setup on the 6 Plus and try the convergence again. I've noticed that turning
airplane mode ON does not turn off the wifi, which I have to do in addition. This fooled
me when I first began testing my iPhone 6s. The Android phones did turn off wifi.

Eric Greenwell

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Feb 25, 2022, 9:38:05 AM2/25/22
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The Convergence lasted about an hour before vanishing. Rats.

jfitch

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Feb 25, 2022, 11:28:42 AM2/25/22
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Eric, iOS remembers the state of WiFi (and Bluetooth) in airplane mode. If you are in airplane mode and enable wifi, next time you use airplane mode it will remember that and leave it enabled. Likewise if you turn it off while in airplane mode it will remember that as well.

This morning, 24 hours later, the Skysight data is gone from the 5s and iOS12. I wonder what facility Matthew is using for data persistence - the developers literature describes several.

Matthew Scutter

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Feb 25, 2022, 11:00:50 PM2/25/22
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Answering some questions from this thread:

>Matthew Scutter, SkySight developer, says he doesn't have time to do an app
Like everything, it's a tradeoff - if I have to do a dedicated app, that's time I could have spent on other new features, and my time will forever be split between multiple codebases going forwards. The current 'app' is a Progressive Web App, which lets me reuse the same codebase as the website for mobile.
The utopian beauty of the web is that you can write your code once and any device can run it.

Unfortunately for Apple being a website bypasses the 30% cut they collect from subscriptions sold via real apps, so they very aggressively limit what you can build as a website. Until recently a website could only store 50MB on a device as a hard maximum, which is why you could only save offline one or two SkySight charts. From iOS 15.x(?) this limit has been lifted in iOS 15 and you can download a lot more.

> This morning, 24 hours later, the SkySight data is gone from the 5s and iOS12. I wonder what facility Matthew is using for data persistence - the developers literature describes several.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Cache
We use the Cache API. It is the only API that has enough storage, wide enough browser support, and lacks the bugs/poor performance of IndexedDB.
A problem with using this API is that if your phone is running out of disk space, it may decide to clear out your stored forecasts, or even the stored app. There are ways to avoid that, but Safari doesn't implement them...

>Have you tried a different browser? Opera, Edge, Chrome, Firefox? I'm told some work better than others.
On iOS there is no such thing as other browsers - the only browser is Safari, and other 'browsers' you may be able to install are functionally cosmetic styling around Safari, so no need to waste time there.

On Android, I strongly recommend Chrome, followed by Firefox. I strongly recommend against the default "Samsung Internet" browser, which barely seems to manage the regular website.
Antivirus/anti-tracker software almost always disables the storage functionality we use, as it can theoretically be used to store identifying information about you to track your behaviour within a website, so I suggest disabling that too.

>Matthew says he has not promoted this feature in SkySight because of these anomalies.
The problem is when it doesn't work it's basically impossible for me to find out the reason why it doesn't seem to work for specific people/phones, as your device is offline when it has the problems and extracting/sending in your device's log files is extremely challenging for most users. For most users, they are able to get it work without problems. Problems seem to be largely limited to older iOS devices. I strongly recommend users towards the LX9000/Oudie platforms which work well.


In summary:
Use an Android device if that is available to you, preferably using Chrome.
Make sure you are on the most recent OS version - iOS 15(!) is basically the minimum for Apple due to that space limitation.
Make sure you have plenty of free storage space - if your phone thinks it is running out by its own internal metrics, it'll start deleting things.
Set your phone up in the glider, connected to power with the screen on and set to not timeout/lock, download just before you launch, enable flight mode and GPS locator before takeoff, and don't turn off your screen in flight.


I may yet one day end up writing an app, or a helper app, because I would like to implement forecast notifications of upcoming good weather, which again Apple doesn't allow a website to do...

Ramy

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Feb 26, 2022, 12:41:12 AM2/26/22
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Here is a thought for iPhone owners like myself.
Keep your iPhone in your pocket and get a cheap used android such as Galaxy S8 plus, for couple hundred bucks as I did. You don’t need to buy a phone line and pay monthly fee. Connect it to your iPhone hotspot. Then you can install all the great apps and webapps such as skysight which works better on Android to use in your cockpit. The only time I use my iPhone in the air is to take pictures or answer a call or text message. All my soaring related apps, like XCSoar and skysight, are running on my S8.

Ramy

Eric Greenwell

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Feb 26, 2022, 8:55:31 AM2/26/22
to
On 2/25/2022 9:41 PM, Ramy wrote:
> Here is a thought for iPhone owners like myself.
> Keep your iPhone in your pocket and get a cheap used android such as Galaxy S8 plus, for couple hundred bucks as I did. You don’t need to buy a phone line and pay monthly fee. Connect it to your iPhone hotspot. Then you can install all the great apps and webapps such as skysight which works better on Android to use in your cockpit. The only time I use my iPhone in the air is to take pictures or answer a call or text message. All my soaring related apps, like XCSoar and skysight, are running on my S8.

Ditto for me. The S8 is a very nice device with a very visible screen in the cockpit. No
sim card, just wifi at home and the airport, and my iPhone hot spot for the rare times I
need it elsewhere. You might have a child, or grandchild, that has one sitting a drawer
because they've upgraded a couple times beyond the S8, so you can get one for free. Worked
for me :^)

>
> Ramy
>
> On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 8:00:50 PM UTC-8, Matthew Scutter wrote:
>> Answering some questions from this thread:
>>
>>> Matthew Scutter, SkySight developer, says he doesn't have time to do an app
>> Like everything, it's a tradeoff - if I have to do a dedicated app, that's time I could have spent on other new features, and my time will forever be split between multiple codebases going forwards. The current 'app' is a Progressive Web App, which lets me reuse the same codebase as the website for mobile.
>> The utopian beauty of the web is that you can write your code once and any device can run it.
>>
>> Unfortunately for Apple being a website bypasses the 30% cut they collect from subscriptions sold via real apps, so they very aggressively limit what you can build as a website. Until recently a website could only store 50MB on a device as a hard maximum, which is why you could only save offline one or two SkySight charts. From iOS 15.x(?) this limit has been lifted in iOS 15 and you can download a lot more.
>>
>>> This morning, 24 hours later, the SkySight data is gone from the 5s and iOS12. I wonder what facility Matthew is using for data persistence - the developers literature describes several.
>> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Cache
>> We use the Cache API. It is the only API that has enough storage, wide enough browser support, and lacks the bugs/poor performance of IndexedDB.
>> A problem with using this API is that if your phone is running out of disk space, it may decide to clear out your stored forecasts, or even the stored app. There are ways to avoid that, but Safari doesn't implement them...
>>> Have you tried a different browser? Opera, Edge, Chrome, Firefox? I'm told some work better than others.
>> On iOS there is no such thing as other browsers - the only browser is Safari, and other 'browsers' you may be able to install are functionally cosmetic styling around Safari, so no need to waste time there.
>>
>> On Android, I strongly recommend Chrome, followed by Firefox. I strongly recommend against the default "Samsung Internet" browser, which barely seems to manage the regular website.
>> Antivirus/anti-tracker software almost always disables the storage functionality we use, as it can theoretically be used to store identifying information about you to track your behaviour within a website, so I suggest disabling that too.
>>
>>> Matthew says he has not promoted this feature in SkySight because of these anomalies.
>> The problem is when it doesn't work it's basically impossible for me to find out the reason why it doesn't seem to work for specific people/phones, as your device is offline when it has the problems and extracting/sending in your device's log files is extremely challenging for most users. For most users, they are able to get it work without problems. Problems seem to be largely limited to older iOS devices. I strongly recommend users towards the LX9000/Oudie platforms which work well.
>>
>>
>> In summary:
>> Use an Android device if that is available to you, preferably using Chrome.
>> Make sure you are on the most recent OS version - iOS 15(!) is basically the minimum for Apple due to that space limitation.
>> Make sure you have plenty of free storage space - if your phone thinks it is running out by its own internal metrics, it'll start deleting things.
>> Set your phone up in the glider, connected to power with the screen on and set to not timeout/lock, download just before you launch, enable flight mode and GPS locator before takeoff, and don't turn off your screen in flight.
>>
>>
>> I may yet one day end up writing an app, or a helper app, because I would like to implement forecast notifications of upcoming good weather, which again Apple doesn't allow a website to do...


Charles Gillespie

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Feb 26, 2022, 11:18:22 AM2/26/22
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JFitch's instructions for creating a desktop icon requires that you use Safari. When I opened Skysight from the desktop, I could see the little clouds in the Forecast menu, and selecting them causes the cloud to change to an uploading symbol (swirling arrows), however the upload doesn't complete (changing to a check mark). Getting closer though.

jfitch

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Feb 26, 2022, 11:31:47 AM2/26/22
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Matthew, thanks for the detailed explanation. This probably accounts for the differences I see on the 5s iOS 12 and the 12Pro iOS 15. I'd prefer to keep just one phone with me and in the cockpit, for awhile I was using two (due to Air Avionics/Apple/WiFi issues) and found it inconvenient. So your continued efforts to make the webapp work are appreciated.
On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 8:00:50 PM UTC-8, Matthew Scutter wrote:

Charles Gillespie

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Feb 26, 2022, 12:37:32 PM2/26/22
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Yes, thanks very much for the explanation Matthew. Great tip on the dedicated Galaxy S8, Ramy!

Charles Gillespie

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Feb 27, 2022, 4:30:51 PM2/27/22
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Ramy, are you using the built-in GPS of the Galaxy S8+ to run XCSoar, or some external GPS source? I presume that the S8+ running XCSoar can pair with 'classic' bluetooth devices (Nano, Powerflarm, LX...) similar to how the Oudie does it to obtain more reliable GPS data, true? I recently paired my old Oudie 2 to the Fusion via bluetooth, without a bluetooth dongle. It took a long time to detect the Fusion, but eventually I could pair and receive GPS and traffic on the Fusion. Reception was a little unstable, however. I've ordered a Flarm dongle and will see if it improves the stability. Ultimately, I intend to run something (XCSoar, Navigator) on an S8+, with GPS and traffic coming from the Fusion over the bluetooth dongle as a backup/accessory device.

Charlie

Ramy

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Feb 27, 2022, 8:00:34 PM2/27/22
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I am using my powerflarm fusion as GPS source for my S8 plus running XCSoar.
I am using the fusion internal Bluetooth with no problem. Make sure nothing blocking the small marked area in the fusion box where the Bluetooth antenna is.
I also used my S8 plus with its internal GPS which worked fine.

Ramy
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