It Gets Worse

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.
Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

Ol' Bob, you got to do some thinking, and then you'll realize a motorglider is like good
dog: he's always there when you need him. Now, I can't say that about a towplane, which
can be down for maintenance, or at the gas pump, or out playing around with someone else's
rope, and I can't say that about a towpilot, who often apparently think they have a life
that doesn't always include me.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

[jfitch]

Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Thanks for the invite Fitch, it would be a long cold trip for this old flip flop wearing Purist to make only to be denied a tow. I think back through last year alone and I was able to make 1000 tows and put a smile on many faces with my beautiful Pawnee, AKA, Towpecker. Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

You have not understood, or at least not acknowledged, that most motorglider pilots had a
choice: use tows and fly less, or get a motor and fly more. They chose more soaring.
That's good, isn't it?

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

[2G]

You keep on calling yourself a purist, but you are anything but. You still use a motor to get your glider into the air, the only difference is where the motor is stored. Once launched, we don't use the motor again - this can be confirmed by hundreds of OLC motorglider flights. A REAL purist uses no motor whatsoever, just a hill and a bungee cord (which can be really hard to find in FL!).

Tom

[Eric Greenwell]

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.
You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.
what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.
So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

Look at the OLC, and you'll the motor is rarely used. Most MG pilots are SOARING pilots,
and we really want to complete the flight without using the motor. Before you tell MG
pilots how differently we plan and fly, you should fly a season in a motorglider, or make
at 10-15 flights in a two seat MG with a good pilot. If the OLC scoring is what burns your
butt, take it up with the OLC, and stop disparaging the MG pilots. We didn't write the rules.

[2G]

What a bunch of crap. Your "purist" lands at an airport, calls you up, and you go retrieve him with your Pawnee. The only difference is a little extra time and cost. And if he lands in a field he calls you up and you come with a trailer, pulled by a vehicle with an ENGINE! That IS IT! And you never responded to what I deem a REAL purist to be: a hill and a bungee cord - that is how the REAL purists did it way back when.

So, NO, you ARE NOT a purist, just a wannabe.

Tom

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Thomas, you should control your emotions, you are making the MG community look really bad. Your best friend, Old Bob, The Purist

[Jay Campbell]

Dale Carnegie said: “The only way to win an argument is to avoid it.” So, I'm going soaring and not worrying about what you think of my choice of sailplanes. I know what I think, and that is the only important consideration for me.

[john firth]

You claim using a bungee to launch is pure? You are imposing on 4, 6 or 8 persons to get you into
the air; the real pure method is gravity launch of which there is a Utube video, at a club in central Europe.
Only a hill ,a paved track and a wing runner.
A close second , was an ex CUGC owner of a hotel in the Welsh mountains, with an Olympia, a bungee,
and a Land Rover, wing stands and a tail hook release. You get the idea.
JMF

[2G]

Hey Bob,

I see that you have no meaningful reply to my accurate observations, just more hubris.

Tom

[2G]

Damn right - it doesn't using any engine whatsoever, just gravity and some human power. I guess you could substitute a horse if you wanted my horsepower.

Tom

[Ramy]

Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?

Ramy (just trying to help)

P.S. I love Bob’s entertainment. Some of us are taking ourselves way too seriously.

[2G]

Hey Ramy, no need to ask Old Bob - I can tell you that he HATES any kind of engine in a glider. Why? I have absolutely no idea other than he sees it as competition for his towplane.

Tom

[Eric Greenwell]

One tow a day! NO relights! Well, OK, you can retrieve by aerotow, but you have to keep
the rope until you are back in the pattern. Motorgliders can use the motor to
self-retrieve, but have to wait at least an hour before using the motor, and must motor
all the way back. Or trailer. No restrictions on trailer retrieves.

Now, a towed pilot with a lot of money, could pay a crew to follow him around with the
trailer for an "instant retrieve" capability. Or, or, pay for a towplane to follow him
around in the air a discreet 5 miles behind, ready to do an aeroretrieve a few minutes
after the soaring pilot lands at an airport.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:17:09 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?
>
> Ramy (just trying to help)

> Ramy,I would love to have that kill switch on Motorgliders, one and done! The engine electronic ignition could be programmed to shut down after the initial launch and not start again until the landing sensor has been activated after the landing, what a great idea. What about the idea of if you start your sustainer you get no points on OLC for the day, and if you have a sustainer or self launch you are actually penalized for your flight.
On another note, I have stated in the past that I do understand the self launch aspect of this motorglider segment, who knows, maybe one day Old Bob may have a self launch, but not with one of the Solo engines that seems to have a lifespan of less than 200 hours, what a bargain! What about a carbon tax on motorgliders, make these MG pilots pay for pollution, a special environmental fund.
Yep Ramy, some of these guys take this stuff way too serious, I seem to bring out the best in these motorglider pilots, my mailbox will be full of hate mail once again. Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

On 5/1/2022 11:05 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:17:09 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
>> Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?
>>
>> Ramy (just trying to help)
> Ramy,I would love to have that kill switch on Motorgliders, one and done! The engine electronic ignition could be programmed to shut down after the initial launch and not start again until the landing sensor has been activated after the landing, what a great idea. What about the idea of if you start your sustainer you get no points on OLC for the day, and if you have a sustainer or self launch you are actually penalized for your flight.

In the olden days, motorgliders were not allowed apply for most SSA state records unless
the motor was disabled after the launch. There was a motorglider class without that
restriction. A few years ago, that restriction was removed, and the motorglider class was
frozen - more record applications accepted. I don't recall the reasons for the changes.

A motorglider does make it more convenient to pursue records, but so do some other things:
money to buy the best glider, no job commitment so you can fly anytime, and an engaging
personality to attract a crew. and a determination to record seeking. Anyone of those is
at least as valuable as the convenience of a motorglider when perusing state records.

> On another note, I have stated in the past that I do understand the self launch aspect of this motorglider segment, who knows, maybe one day Old Bob may have a self launch, but not with one of the Solo engines that seems to have a lifespan of less than 200 hours, what a bargain! What about a carbon tax on motorgliders, make these MG pilots pay for pollution, a special environmental fund.

200 engine hours is a very long time for a motorglider. With typical 5-10 minute taxi and
launch times, that's 1200-2400 flights. It took me 26 years to put 200 hours on my ASH26E
engine (4000+ flight hours). And, it's bizarre to talk of a carbon tax for motorgliders,
since towplanes use about 4 times the fuel for the same launch.

Good News! There is a good solution both the engine life and carbon issues: electric
self-launchers! But beware the electrophobes (you know who they are)...

[Eric Greenwell]

On 5/2/2022 6:36 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> A few years ago, that restriction was removed, and the motorglider class was
> frozen - more record applications accepted. I don't recall the reasons for the changes.

That should be " - NO more record applications accepted".

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Eric, you are making progress, not only does the motorglider make it more convenient to make certain flights and they do not have to be state records, but flights that require the purist to take a different approach to completing a goal flight or record flights, or even an enjoyable weekend flight compared to purist flight. As far as the restrictions I do not think the restrictions are necessary, but I would like to see a separate motorglider class for scoring purposes. You must admit that a bit higher wing loading makes a difference and is seldom a negative factor. I made reference in the initial start of this thread that the pure glider pilot plans differently, most likely flies differently and therefore making the purist flight a higher risk factor vs the motorglider. Last week three flights were made on the 26th here in Florida and two of the flights were completed with motorgliders, the other a purist flight, you tell me which one of those flights had the higher risk factor, a higher failure factor, a greater land out factor, and a different approach toward accomplishing the flight? I will say the same about the flight that Evan had last week up on the ridge, or the great flights that Ramy and many others have in pure gliders vs motorgliders. This is justification for a different scoring class. Old Bob, The Purist

[Dan Marotta]

Jeez... I hate to take the other side, Bob, but... If you're gonna be
like Al Gore and talk about carbon, then what about your Pawnee? IIRC
from my towing days, a 235 hp Pawnee burns, what, 16 gph at takeoff? My
Stemme burns 5 or 6 during takeoff and climb and, if I want to cruise
6-700 miles to find better lift, it burns about 3.2 gph. AND it burns
car gas.

Dan
5J

[Dan Marotta]

Where did that electricity come from, Eric? Coal burning, most likely,
or oil fired turbines. Just because you didn't burn the coal or oil
does not make your motor "emissions free".

I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit rather
than smugly stating that they aren't polluting the atmosphere. Huh...
Considering conversion losses electric vehicles of any sort probably
contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.

Dan
5J

[Bob W.]

On 5/2/22 10:34, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Where did that electricity come from, Eric?  Coal burning, most likely,
> or oil fired turbines.  Just because you didn't burn the coal or oil
> does not make your motor "emissions free".
>
> I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit rather
> than smugly stating that they aren't polluting the atmosphere.  Huh...
> Considering conversion losses electric vehicles of any sort probably
> contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.

Aw, c'mon, Dan! Let's not insert killjoy-realities to an otherwise
mostly-100%-opinionatory thread!!! Even if it *is* "something that
'obviously' goes without saying..."

And since we're enjoying a mid-spring snowstormlet outside as I type,
howziss for thread hijacking and pot-stirring? (And for those intolerant
killjoys out there in RAS-land, please note a quick skim of the
article's comments will reveal *gliding* is mentioned - no, really!)

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/05/01/electric-bus-catches-fire-after-battery-explosion/

[Eric Greenwell]

Where it comes from depends very much on where you are. In the Pacific NW, where I live in
Washington State, it's about 80% from dams, windmills, and solar panels; some areas near
the East coast, it's probably mostly oil and coal.

The conversion efficiency for electric motors run by lithium batteries is very high, over
90%. Compare that to a gasoline fueled engine, which converts about 30% of the energy in
gasoline to power. So, it's almost always less pollution to change the oil, coal, and
natural gas to electricity at an utility, and use the electricity to run electric vehicles.

[Michael N.]

Will this never end....? :-P

Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.

I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )

I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....

Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....

[Eric Greenwell]

On 5/2/2022 7:50 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 9:50:01 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 5/2/2022 6:36 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>
>>> A few years ago, that restriction was removed, and the motorglider class was
>>> frozen - more record applications accepted. I don't recall the reasons for the changes.
>> That should be " - NO more record applications accepted".
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>
> Eric, you are making progress, not only does the motorglider make it more convenient to make certain flights and they do not have to be state records, but flights that require the purist to take a different approach to completing a goal flight or record flights, or even an enjoyable weekend flight compared to purist flight.

You missed the point: there are several things that make soaring more convenient. You know
this, as you work hard to achieve that convenience: readily available tows, good club
ships, and so on. Also, as I pointed out, money and job status are also important factors
contributing to convenience. Your obsessive concern that motorgliders are so special is
tunnel vision. Chill, and let us pursue all the conveniences that enable more people to do
more soaring.

I made reference in the initial start of this thread that the pure glider pilot plans
differently, most likely flies differently and therefore making the purist flight a
higher risk factor vs the motorglider. Last week three flights were made on the 26th here
in Florida and two of the flights were completed with motorgliders, the other a purist
flight, you tell me which one of those flights had the higher risk factor, a higher
failure factor, a greater land out factor, and a different approach toward accomplishing
the flight?

Your comments are becoming scary. How did you ever come to believe flying motorglider was
less risky than an unpowered glider? This is bad information, and there are no statistics
showing it is true. It's the PILOT, not the glider (powered or unpowered), that determines
the risk of a flight. A motorglider is a CONVENIENCE, not a SAFETY device. Please, please,
learn about motorgliders, then get 20 or flights in motorgliders, before offering
potentially dangerous opinions about their safety.

[Michael N.]

P.S. Bob I came out to have a look at TCSC, nice operation. I'll be back later this year to soar with you guys, Ventus cT sustainer ready for use if needed.

Mike N. - 1M

[2G]

Probably not. Not So Purist Bob keeps starting new threads beating the same dead horse (i.e. defaming motorgliders and their owners).

Tom

[2G]

I believe I have made this point before: a launch in my 31Mi takes about half a gallon while a Not So Purist Bob's launch takes 3-4 gallons, clearly MUCH more environmentally friendly. And don't even get me started on retrieves.

Tom

[RR]

It is now clear why Bob does not want his own "Magic Button". He has much more fun pushing 2G's button(s), and I think it makes more noise too!

RR

[Dan Marotta]

Holy crap! I couldn't look away! But I did notice that the driver of
the bus parked directly behind got the heck out of Dodge. Oh, and I saw
the glider reference in the article.

Dan
5J

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Always welcome Mike, I do about 95 % of the towing and would be glad to have you at the end of the rope. Mike, I enjoy getting these MG guys all wired up and they just cannot get a good night of sleep without trying to justify their inferior flight platform. Some of these characters can get pretty nasty, but they are good with their justification for assisted flight. Now me being a very mild mannered individual I look at these post as teachable moments, seems to me that these motorglider guys need help in understanding the importance of being a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

If you really want to improve the Purist brand, you need to find a good role model, and
the best one I know of is Henry Combs. Saturday after Saturday, he flew straight out,
flying over 200 Diamond Distance flights, many of them ending in field landings. He
refused use aero retrieves; instead, he relied on his personality to entice many dozens of
people, most of them not glider people, to crew for him, to follow him hundreds of miles
an unknown destination, and bring him home. He set a high standard by example, not by
insulting people, but by inspiring them.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Eric don't think that is old purist didn't have a role model or two, I have been a real lucky guy and have flown gliders with some great pilots, probably none you ever heard of, but they were really good. The best of the guys was a man named Bennie Flowers, who worked with Dr. August Raspet in the development of increased performance in sailplanes through advanced wing development. Bennie was years ahead of the times, his skills were sharp and his knowledge was extensive. As a young glider pilot Bennie took me under his wing and for years taught me things about flying gliders that most would never achieve. Bennie and I were flying well before this wonderful Latin gentleman named Alfonso arrived and after E9 got his feet on the ground we were flying almost daily for years, I was able to log more than 3000 hours in glass, so I guess that qualifies me as a seasoned purist.
I am very cognizant of Henry Combs, never actually met him but knew of his Libelle modifications and great flights no doubt he was a man who paid attention to detail as a structural engineer, I know that type well, my son is one. Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

And bus fire powered by methane:
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-bus-fire/fact-check-clip-does-not-show-a-battery-electric-bus-on-fire-idUSL2N2WN1L4

A toss-up for spectacular.

[Michael N.]

Well we could also go back to the days of doing Diamond flights as downwind dashes with little to no communications with our ground support crew as so well detailed in Joseph Coleville Lincolns book Soaring For Diamonds. By the way one of my favorite soaring books ever.

So why do we now fly triangles and out and returns for records? You could say the flying described in the book is truly "Purist".
We don't do that anymore because soaring technology improved to the point that we could actually get back to the originating airport while reaching those distance goals, which is EASIER.

Flying with the option to self retrieve is easier. Assuming the motor starts. As many have pointed out with a sustainer you still flight plan like the motor is not going to start. The motor starting should be a "pleasant surprise" after you've picked your field etc...

Anyway I love the descriptions of flying adventures in Soaring For Diamonds. But that doesn't mean I'm to trade my radio and GPS data logger in for a Bariograph and barely functioning walkie-talkie.

[2G]

There is nothing "pure" about using a 235hp motor to get yourself launched, Not So Pure Bobby.

[kinsell]

Back in the old days, we had "sustainers" and "self-launchers", and it
was just understood that a self-launcher also had good sustainer
capability. Now you're asking for a self-launch only ship.

But wait, the future is already here! It's called an "electric glider".

To save some time, Eric will immediately jump in and tell us what the
vaunted Jeta promises to deliver, and I'll respond that some appropriate
level of cynicism should be applied to a company with the track record
of GP. However, with a lot of "skin in the game" as Raul used to say,
Eric will be quite immune to changing his mind.

Ramy has said he'd buy a Jeta as soon as they showed up on the used
market. Good news, your dream ship is just gathering dust on W&W,
looking for its fourth private owner, and having an amazing 0 hrs TT.
Time to put your money where you mouth is, and snatch up this baby
before the dealer does. Maybe the bloom is off the rose on these
things, but Eric just hasn't gotten the word yet :-)

Dave

[Ramy]

Ha, I don’t recall saying I’ll buy a used Jetta as soon as they are available in the used market.
Maybe an FES, maybe an AS33 electric, maybe a JS3 electric.
I am still awaiting for that retrieve from hell which will convince me to go to the dark side. Didn’t quiet have one yet.

Ramy

[jfitch]

Old Bob, you continue the fiction that cross country flight planning and execution are much different between motorgliders and non. If you were experienced with motorglider cross country flight, your opinion might carry some weight, but speaking from complete ignorance it does not. Regarding separate classes in OLC, sure let's have one for motorgliders - and also recent designs vs older, those with crew vs those without, those who own a gliderport and towplane vs those who don't, those with jobs vs. the unemployed, etc. A real "purist" would sell his trailer and limit his credit card to one tow a day (no relights, no retrieves). That would change your behavior far more than carrying a motor in the back. The trailer and retrieve towplane serve the same purpose, just less expensive and not quite as convenient as a motor to use.

[Dan Marotta]

Just about anything will burn but some burn hotter and with more toxic
fumes. Some are also less tolerant of minor damage.

I have an obsolete electronic device with an embedded lithium battery.
Maybe I'll whack it with a hammer and see how it reacts. I wouldn't be
very concerned with smashing, say, a propane can used for refilling
lighters.

Dan
5J

[Ramy]

Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do not take advantage of their motor as you believe.

Ramy

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Mr. Fitch, don't you remember the last time that you stated that I was wrong, yet the proof showed that I was correct, don't be so nieve.

[Eric Greenwell]

On 5/3/2022 10:04 AM, Ramy wrote:
> Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do not take advantage of their motor as you believe.
>
> Ramy

It's been a puzzle to me, too, but you see it in towed glider pilots also. They will buy a
better glider, but don't extend their soaring performance commensurate with the improved
glider performance. Eventually, I realized they got it so they didn't get "in trouble" as
often, as the better glide angle made it easier to find that next thermal, and easier to
keep airports within gliding range. Much of the extra performance went to reducing stress
instead increasing speeds and distances, and that is how many MG pilots use the engine:
stress reduction, not bigger adventures.

My judgment is you are still years from slipping into "stress reduction" mode, so you'd
really enjoy the choices a motorglider gives, letting you make - heaven help the rest of
us - even bigger flights!

[jfitch]

Bob, you were wrong and are wrong. Are there some motorglider pilots that cheat? Undoubtedly. Are the "purist" pilots that cheat? Likewise. But your logic - if one motorglider pilot cheats then they all must - applies equally to "purists". They must all cheat. Where you are wrong is in generalizing a specific case to a whole population, and inferring behavior and motives where none exist, without the slightest experience. You are like the man telling the woman that pregnancy is wonderful - how would you know, exactly? That is naiveté.

Get some cross country time in a motorglider. Then you might at least have some idea what you are talking about. Until then it's just bloviation. If I come to Florida I'll just get you talking about motorgliders, that hot air thermal should be good for a 1000K ;).

[2G]

Not So Purist Bobby is losing the battle, as he admitted at the start of this thread. His incoherent ramblings reflect a despair that are linked to his self-interest in selling tows. Nothing is going to change his mind, but he is likely stirring more interest in motorgliders in a back-handed way. How ironic...

Tom

[J6 aka Airport Bum]

Ramy, your comment is right on. Some of us in the motorgliding community, me included, are leaving some great soaring unflown due to not fully utilizing the gift of self-launch. Thanks for the positive challenge!

I personally have only flown a small handful of “no towplane” sites in the six seasons I have flown my ‘26 - a crime, I realize, now that I reflect on your comment. A self launcher is a discovery machine!

A recent example: Michael Price recently flew a pioneering wave flight out of North Georgia in his Ventus 2 self launcher, he put some serious miles in BUT just scratched the surface…. Well done, Mike, looking forward to some really big flights using the same approach! We other self launch pilots in the Southeast need to join you in such explorations.

I personally want to get that last “big fish”, my 1000k south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-and-west-of-the-Mississippi (as I did all my Diamonds, in a pure glider by the way…). A way to do this is to camp my ‘26 at a southern Appalachian airport (no towplane required) during the ridge season, and go on a weather watch for the big day…. Perhaps using wave like Mike is pioneering!

Right now my upcoming western soaring safari has August into September open as far as flying sites…. Perhaps Wyoming warrants some no-tow-plane-available exploration!

Thanks for the positive challenge, Ramy! It’s getting better!

Cheers,
Jim J6

[Nicholas Kennedy]

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick
T

[Darren Braun]

Nick makes a great point and along with that is getting ramp access to random gated airports located near the convergence/favored soaring terrain.
Darren

[Eric Greenwell]

It is more fun when others are around! I'm sure you could find other motorglider pilots
that would love to fly from Austin or other good soaring location. I've done it, and it's
easy to arrange: just some dates for where you'd like to fly, let other MG pilots know you
are looking for company, agree on dates, show up and fly.

in 2021, I did that at Richfield, UT. Five of us (three ASH26E, one each Silent 2 Electro
and Ventus 2cM) had good flights over 10 days or so of flying. There's another approach,
if you live in an area of good soaring: entice MG pilots to come to your airport. Shmuel
Dimenstein in Rifle, UT, has made that work really well for him. Or do something like I
did in April: fly out a convenient airport (Willows, California), and you'll have the
company of pilots flying from Williams, Hollister, and more.

[Doug Levy]

Nick, I can understand your feeling of spending time alone is not enjoyable. When I take my Phoenix touring motor glider I make an effort to catch dinner at a local brewery or bar and engage in a conversation with strangers. It is remarkably enjoyable to share soaring pictures and tales with people that are not aware of soaring. I get the feeling of the early barnstormers.
I try to look at the Skysight forecast and launch based on that and then follow the convergence forecast or the clouds. Then as the day weakens or it is getting late find an airport and figure out what to do next. I have a sleeping bag and tent with me but really want a motel room and a meal.
I've got thousands of hours in my SGS 1-26 and years of hang gliding. I know pure soaring. Motor gliding touring has been my favorite adventure. I'm surprised more pilots are not doing it.

[J6 aka Airport Bum]

Yes, Nick, this is an issue. Not just on the enjoyment front, but for safety also. For me also, soaring is as much a social thing as an aviation thing. And safety is paramount.

In the self-launch world, we need more encampments like the annual Aux-powered Sailplane Association Parowan event. The Parowan camp has been full/oversubscribed/waitlisted for years now, and the new FBO there at 1L9 has rearranged the ramp a bit so there is less glider tiedown capacity (although he is friendly and supportive of the event) reducing capacity and making the problem worse. We at ASA have talked about an Eastern camp (probably during ridge/wave season) but efforts to find a suitable site have stalled. Site reconnaissance possible because of the gift of self-launch, as suggested by Ramy's comment, has to be done to find suitable sites for small/medium size group encampments, which is the enjoyment "gold standard" in my experience.

So, perhaps with some less-than-optimal-fun solo or buddy-pair site reconnaissance (with safety considered by pre-arranged tracking monitoring) we can open up some new and interesting soaring sites for the growing group of self-launchers. Regarding my ideas to reconnoiter some new sites this August/September, are there any other retired airport bums with self-launchers out there who might want to buddy up with me on this?

Not to leave the purists out: I have noted that there have been some some recent acquisitions of privately owned (non-commercial and non-club) towplanes which may eventually become available "for hire" to support towed gliders at encampments. Too early to tell, but this might be a good development for the adventurous purists out there.

Bob, apologies for hijacking your post, but it has really spawned some interesting and productive discussion. We probably ought to spawn new discussion strings to explore these further....

It's getting better!

Cheers,
Jim J6

[Eric Greenwell]

On 5/4/2022 8:51 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Shmuel Dimenstein in Rifle, UT, has made that work really well for him.

That should be Rifle, CO, not UT!

[Eric Greenwell]

On 5/4/2022 8:43 AM, Darren Braun wrote:

If getting access for a MG trailer is a problem, you won't be flying there with a
towplane, either. My experience with gated airports is good, with them letting me bring
the motorhome and trailer onto the ramp (like Richfield and Rifle). What can cause
problems is airline service, even if it's just commuter service, due to additional TSA
safety and security requirements, but some of those airports will work with me, letting me
assemble on the ramp, but requiring me to keep the motorhome outside the gate after that.

[Darren Braun]

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:45:32 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> If getting access for a MG trailer is a problem, you won't be flying there with a
> towplane, either. My experience with gated airports is good, with them letting me bring
> the motorhome and trailer onto the ramp (like Richfield and Rifle). What can cause
> problems is airline service, even if it's just commuter service, due to additional TSA
> safety and security requirements, but some of those airports will work with me, letting me
> assemble on the ramp, but requiring me to keep the motorhome outside the gate after that.

Eric, good to know. It would awesome to get a list of RV/MG friendly places going in some shape or form.
Darren

[Dan Marotta]

Ritchfield, UT... I launched out of there in 2001 using a friend's
ASW-24e on the 4th of July. It was the fourth day of our safari and I
flew north to Salina, east to Green River, south over Moab and
Montecello, UT, then to Cortez, CO, and landed at Durango. A great day
and a great week of straight out soaring flights!

Dan
5J

[Dan Marotta]

I have a partner in my Cessna 180 and he owns an ASW-27b. We explored
the possibility of installing a tow release on the 180 so that we could
go safari together (he's also a tow pilot). ... But the insurance
company said (paraphrasing) HELL NO!

Dan
5J