considering the asw-20
John H. Steiner
Any gotchas or "heads up" issues to consider? I'm thinking about things
like control connectors, ease of assembly, AD's, historical or nagging
maint. problems or any insight on the pros and cons of the various -20
models. thx!
jhs
thin_a...@my-deja.com
first ship for you. I considered a '20 for my first, but missed the
only good one I saw for sale.
Excellent - still competitive.
All control hookups are manual and demand attention, especially
elevator. DO NOT FLY WITHOUT POSITIVE CONTROL CHECK!!! Fairly easy to
install elevator and not hook up control rod. It will still make
elevator move by rod end pushing up on connector even when not
connected. Not a problem, just something to be careful of.
Positive Flaps are by all accounts VERY POWERFUL. Would advise trying
at altitude first to see attitude required to keep airspeed up. Once
down in pattern a rapid retraction could spell trouble. Experment with
upstairs first.
Initially keep CG toward forward end of envelope. Performance will not
be optimal, but stall/spin character will be much better.
I ended up with a Discus B instead, and could not be happier with it.
The '20 or an LS-4 or -6 would be my next choices. A lot more of them
for sale.
If you decide on a '20 (or any ship for that matter) look at the finish
carefully. A lot of the '20's I looked at, especially out west had a
good deal of crazing, probably due to wave flight or strong UV out west.
Good luck with your hunt! It will become a quest. Don't give up.
Dave Denman
Discus B K9
In article <398590E8...@attglobal.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Flynimbus
Go ahead and get one. They are one of the finest gliders ever produced. If you
can, get the C or B model. They have several refinments over the A, the most
important of which are the disk brake and heavy duty, schock absorbing, landing
gear. Also, the later models have an aotomatic elevator hookup which the A
models lack, although the wing controls are all manual connections.
The "20" is one of the sweetest handling ships around, and probably is the best
glider ever for short field landings. It has big flaps that go way down, plus
effective spoilers for glide path control. The glide ratio drops to something
like 4.5/1 with everything hanging out. That makes it very easy to stuff it
into small places.
One word of advice--and this is true regardless of what kind of ship you
buy--find one with a nice trailer. A bad trailer will take much of the fun out
of soaring, and you don't want that. I personally recomend the Cobra followed
by the Komet, although there are other good trailers out there, i.e. Minden,
Schreder, etc. But you have to get one that has good internal rigging or it'll
ruin your glider.
Good luck,
Chris Dabolt
PS I currently fly a Nimbus-4, but I have owned and flown three ASW-20s in the
past, and loved them all!
Al Eddie
I shared an ASW 20L for several years and have about 400hrs on type, having
flown most models (did all 3 Diamonds in 20's). While I agree with the
others that it is one of the finest gliders around and the BL is still
highly competitive, I have to say that unless you have a lot of experience
it will take a fair amount of flying to get used to.
First, all the levers are on your left and it is very easy to find the wrong
one - leading you into overshoot while manipulating the wheel, for
example!!!!
Controls are a bitch to connect - the access panel is about 5" x 4" and when
your arm is inside, you simply cannot see. Theres a mandatory in the UK for
locking devices to be fitted to all connections.
The landing flap has 2 positions. Practice, practice, and practice again and
again at your home base BEFORE attempting cross country flights. Use the mid
position first (about 40deg) and get used to this - in reality you shouldn't
have to use the full setting (about 70deg), but that needs a lot of practce,
too.
Don't know how big you are but I am 6'2". Although the seating arrangement
can adjust to this, I prefer to fly with the seat back removed - this also
helps to pop the C of G a little further aft.
Enjoy the 20, if you find one (you have to consider why Dave Denman found
there are lots of LS 6's around!!!), then when you discover the Duo Discus
we'll talk again :-))
Al Eddie
Duo Discus (3D)
John H. Steiner wrote in message <398590E8...@attglobal.net>...
Armand A. Medeiros
PIK-20D, "A PIK will scare you, an ASW-20 will kill you!" He was right in
my opinion. You have to be trained especially well. You need a CFIG to get
you into the right habits from the start! Your whole mindset has to be
correct.
AL is especially right. If you jump into a high performance ship, it is easy
to screw up and set the flaps wrong or any other number of errors during
assemble. I would advise against a 20 as a fist glider.
Armand
"Al Eddie" <al.e...@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:8m63d1$jpo$1...@supernews.com...
David & Kathy Martin
aircraft. It is not hard to fly and the handling is very good.
As with all high performance sailplanes, you need to know what
you are doing. I used negative flaps for the take off roll.
This increased aileron effectiveness at the low speed. As I
reached flying speed I would ease the flaps to one notch
positive and then depending on the speed of the tow keep it in
one notch positive of neutral. I almost always landed using the
thermaling flap setting (one notch positive) and then used the
airbrakes in the conventional manner. Just because you have
landing flaps available does not mean that you have to use them
all of the time. I practiced using the higher flap settings if
needed for off field landings, but used the higher setting very
seldom, even in off field landings.
You never said how many hours you had, but I stated flying the
20 with aproximately 500 hours and never had any trouble.
AS others have noted, the controls are critical to be hooked up
and checked, but the opening to reach the controls is adequate
and I always checked visually and with a positive control check
that everything was hooked up properly and working correctly.
David Martin
ASW 27 BV
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
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Janos Bauer
Hmm... PIK will also fall down suddenly when you push the flaps back
from e.g. +16 to -8.
Could you please explain the difference?
/Jancsika
thin_a...@my-deja.com
Heck, I can't type!! Too much heat on the old brain soaring in August
in Florida. The lots of them around was refering to the '20's, not the
LS-6's. Last count there were 6 '20's listed in SSA for sale ads, (and
no LS-6's) I only saw two nice LS6's in my 1.5 year quest (Ron
Clarke's in Indianapolis and one in Alabama. The '20 and '24 market
seems to have the most numbers.
-Have a good one
Dave Denman
In article <8m63d1$jpo$1...@supernews.com>,
"Al Eddie" <al.e...@lineone.net> wrote:
> Enjoy the 20, if you find one (you have to consider why Dave Denman
found
> there are lots of LS 6's around!!!), then when you discover the Duo
Discus
> we'll talk again :-))
>
> Al Eddie
>
mike_th...@my-deja.com
priced German sailplane. Probably the best price-performance you can
get in the USA right now.
If it's your first glass or high-performance ship, you might want to
consider a standard class or at least get some time in a flapped ship
before committing to a purchase. Flaps do complicate flying somewhat -
but that's where the ASW-20 performance comes from!
I previously owned an LS-4, and that would be my recommendation for a
first high-performance glass ship. It flies a little sweeter, no flaps
to worry about, and only the ailerons need connecting. However, you'll
pay $5k to $8k more than a similar age/condition ASW-20 for a ship
which handicaps 4% or 5% lower.
I now have an "A" model ASW-20. I added Wederkind safeties to the
connections last winter, a highly recommended safety improvement. The
access hatch is a little small, but everything is readily accessible
and visible. I've never had a problem rigging, but I always double-
check and do a positive with a friend. In my first season, the CG was
a tad aft of the rear limit, which made the stall/spin characteristics
a trifle brisk. With the excess lead removed from the tail and the CG
a touch forward of the rear limit, the handling characteristics are
superb - no surprises any more. I would strongly recommend getting a
weight/balance of any ship you buy. Who knows how much lead got
inserted 20 years ago!
The landing flaps are powerful and a great boon for short-field
outlandings. However, on a regular field you can land in zero or
thermalling flap using the brakes, just like an unflapped ship. That's
what I did for my first few flights and it's my standard procedure if
there's any major wind -especially crosswind.
The weakest point of the design, in my opinion, is the poor
ventilation. Out here in Arizona, we could use a lot more cool air.
All the standard ventilation system does is blow dust over the inside
of your canopy. Som ships have been modified to improve this.
I'd go fly a few different types and see what you like.
Mike Stringfellow
ASW-20 WA
Armand A. Medeiros
high angle of attack on its wheels. It happened to me many times. With full
flaps, the roll rate slows very much and gets VERY heavy. If you are not
wings level when you put them in, it takes forever to get wings level again.
(realtively speaking). That's the scary part.
The ASW-20 has such good performance that you can get yourself in deep puppy
poopoo quicker and not be able to get out. Maybe some ASW-20 pilots can fill
in the blanks....
I have flown an LS-3 and it is much better than the PIK-20D! It does
everything better than the PIK...
Consider an LS-3...it really is a nice airplane.
Armand
"Janos Bauer" <janos...@eth.ericsson.se> wrote in message
news:3986D596...@eth.ericsson.se...
iserv
the full length flaparon model (original LS3, not the LS3a) the controls are
all automatic hook up, something not obtainable in other gliders of that
era. That alone would sell me. It is a very docil glider, very comfortable
to fly for extended periods of cross country flying, and performance equal
to the ASW20. Not as many imported into the USA as the 20, though. Very
popular in Europe.
mike_th...@my-deja.com wrote in message
<8m6vom$3de$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Eric Greenwell
> I'm considering the asw-20 as my first glider purchase.
>
> Any gotchas or "heads up" issues to consider? I'm thinking about things
> like control connectors, ease of assembly, AD's, historical or nagging
> maint. problems or any insight on the pros and cons of the various -20
> models. thx!
Without knowing your experience, we can't give you the information you
need. The ASW 20 and most other high performance gliders aren't for
limited experience pilots.
What have you flown before?
How many hours in these other gliders or aircraft?
Are there experienced ASW 20 pilots (preferably also CFIGs) at your
club to assist you in learning to fly it?
Where do you want to fly it?
What are your anticipated uses (local flying, cross-country, contests,
etc)?
--
Remove REMOVE from my e-mail address to reply
Eric Greenwell
Ludovic Launer
Wedekind sleeves REALLY makes life easier. I rig / unrig at every flight, I
just couldn't live withou them. No pins to worry about.
> The weakest point of the design, in my opinion, is the poor
> ventilation
That't what I found out aswell. I'm happy to see that I'm not the only one
having this opinion. I wonder if anything could be done to improve this ?
It is a really nice ship. I always fly with the tips on.
To try one is to buy one :-)
--
Ludovic Launer
lau...@esrf.fr
Tango4
> ventilation
I went scrabbling about at the local aircraft insurance yard and came up
with a nice aluminium 'eyeball' style ventilator from a beech kingair that
had been bent somewhat. A few evenings with a piece of urethane foam and
some tissue glasscloth made a mounting nacelle on the right cockpit rim. I
drilled through ( about 4 10 mm holes rather than one big one to retain the
structural integrity of the rim ) into the duct that carries air from the
underwing NACA vents to the nose ventilator.
The result was a nice stream of cooling air that could be directed onto my
face whilst flying. I see the new ASW's come with the same thing factory
fitted.
Ian
Nyal Williams
"Armand A. Medeiros" <zar...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:wJDh5.20$_O3....@news.pacbell.net...
MarkGrubb
You can install a ball vent in both the left and right side ducts. The left
side goes in front of the flap console. The right side should be well aft so as
to blow air in your face at maximum velocity.
Air flow from the eyeball vents will be improved if the channel foward of the
vent is blocked with foam. However, if both a left and right eyeball vent are
installed, leave one side of the duct (left) open to the foward canopy
defogger vent for de-fogging purposes.
I am told that a turbulator strip installed on front of the NACA scoop on the
fuselage help get air down the hole. I have yet to try this one, however.
Steve Sovis
all now. I had shares in a Grob 102 and PW-5 before (about 350 total glider hours
now).
I agree with all the points made so far, especially the cautions on flap usage.
I'm really glad I had the 102 time before the 20. It was definitely a major step
up in performance and complication for me. IMHO it is not a first glass ship
without some sort of glass time (e.g. at least some Grob 103 dual). If you are not
real sharp with the 103, seriously consider starting with a standard class ship
like the LS-4.
The 20 is a price/performance winner and the handling, given a little experience,
seems much better than generally acknowledged (you always hear great things about
the 6's and not so much about the 20, but I like it alot). Put a loaded 20 on a
ridge on a good day and it's impossible to give up flaps for anything except the
latest standard class ships. Even then, when it's time to go into a short field
you'll be glad for that extra handle!
Good luck in your search. Fly safe.
Steve Sovis "US"