LS-6 / ASW-27
RFR
weight and higher speed limits. I have some time in an LS-6a, and none in
an ASW-27.
Would anybody be willing to try and point out some of the pro's and con's of
each LS-6b or c, not the a version, and the 27.
Prices on used models - if available
Performance / handling
Weight (I'm 95kg)
Ballast limits
Short field and normal landing characteristics
Winch tow characteristics
Assembly - (90 seconds for the H 301)
Material, i.e. Gel-Coat, durability
Visibility / Comfort / Storage of water, food, batteries, etc.
Thanks,
Roderick
Martin
generation.I can only tell you about the 27 since I have never flown a LS-6.
A major pro for the LS-6 is that you can upgrade it to 18 m and that it is
probably cheaper than the 27.
About the 27:
>
> Prices on used models - if available
dunno, probably hard to find. (the same goes for LS6 b/c)
> Performance / handling
Excellent. In strong wetter, there is no better 15m ship.
> Weight (I'm 95kg)
No problem, install a tail battery for optimal CG
> Ballast limits
Up to 56 kg/m2 with your weight you don't need the extra fuselage tank
> Short field and normal landing characteristics
Excellent, special flap setting for steep approach with full ailleron
effectivity.
> Winch tow characteristics
No problems
> Assembly - (90 seconds for the H 301)
takes more than 90 seconds (assembling both winglets takes two minutes)
> Material, i.e. Gel-Coat, durability
German quality
> Visibility / Comfort / Storage of water, food, batteries, etc.
I have to batteries in the luggage compartment and there is still enough
room for the rest.Visibilty is excellent due to the innovative cockpit
design. The cockpit is however not as roomy as an LS-4, but enough for me
(75kg).
cheers
Martin
Chr Ters
an used Ls6 is much better.
In competitions for example Justin Wills have a Ls6 but on all big
competions hi flys with a ASW27 frome someone else...
I think both gliders are very good gliders but the asw27 is tha what you can
make with 15m wingspan.
I flew both gliders an i have now ordered a ASW27.
Regards
RFR schrieb in Nachricht <876on2$283$1...@pollux.ip-plus.net>...
>I looking to upgrade from my Libelle H 301 to something with a little more
>weight and higher speed limits. I have some time in an LS-6a, and none in
>an ASW-27.
>
>Would anybody be willing to try and point out some of the pro's and con's
of
>each LS-6b or c, not the a version, and the 27.
>
>Prices on used models - if available
>Performance / handling
>Weight (I'm 95kg)
>Ballast limits
>Short field and normal landing characteristics
>Winch tow characteristics
>Assembly - (90 seconds for the H 301)
>Material, i.e. Gel-Coat, durability
>Visibility / Comfort / Storage of water, food, batteries, etc.
>
>Thanks,
>Roderick
>
>
>
>
g oneill
and about $40,000 US Should check it out!
RFR <read.r...@pmintl.ch> wrote in message
news:876on2$283$1...@pollux.ip-plus.net...
Martin
hook will soon be obligatory for towing).
Martin
> >
> > g oneill <gon...@win.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:949515473.327736@news...
Bert Willing
Martin wrote:
> Nice price, too bad that it can only be winch launched in Germany. (a nose
> hook will soon be obligatory for towing).
What's that: Will it apply to all gliders or only to new ones? And what will be
with gliders which can't have a nose hook installed due to structural
limitations of the nose?
--
Bert Willing
-----------
Caproni Calif A21S D-6600
Come fly at La Motte du Caire in the French Alps:
http://www.decollage.org/la_motte/
Andreas Maurer
wrote:
>I looking to upgrade from my Libelle H 301 to something with a little more
>weight and higher speed limits. I have some time in an LS-6a, and none in
>an ASW-27.
>
>Would anybody be willing to try and point out some of the pro's and con's of
>each LS-6b or c, not the a version, and the 27.
>
>Prices on used models - if available
LS-6: Halfways cheap.
ASW-27: Expensive, because new
>Performance / handling
Both superb, the 27 being easier in my opinion (the easiest flapped
ship I know)
>Weight (I'm 95kg)
No problem, but for me the LS-6 Cockpit feels a little bit tight
>Ballast limits
Both good
>Short field and normal landing characteristics
Both good
>Winch tow characteristics
Both easy
>Assembly - (90 seconds for the H 301)
Dito.
>Material, i.e. Gel-Coat, durability
Baically good, dpends very much on the location and use of the ship.
>Visibility / Comfort / Storage of water, food, batteries, etc.
Both good.
In my opinion it depends on your personal taste and the amountof money
you want to spend: The 27 is perhaps 5 percent better, but much
perrcent more expensive than the LS-6.
Buy yourself an LS-6 and your wife a great vaaction. Or two. Or three.
Bye
Andreas
Martin Spieck
>
[...]
> Buy yourself an LS-6 and your wife a great vaaction. Or two. Or three.
Two or three LS-6's or wives?
Just curious,
Martin
Andreas Maurer
<bert.w...@go-away.epfl.ch> wrote:
>
>
>Martin wrote:
>
>> Nice price, too bad that it can only be winch launched in Germany. (a nose
>> hook will soon be obligatory for towing).
>
>What's that: Will it apply to all gliders or only to new ones? And what will be
>with gliders which can't have a nose hook installed due to structural
>limitations of the nose?
An attempt to push the World Class in Germany...?
I wonder where the boneyard for all these beautiful ASW-20's will
be....
Bye
Andreas
Martin
Birger Bulukin
nothing.
--
Birger W. Bulukin
Martin <as...@hotmail.com> wrote in article <lQvm4.685$Rw1.3269@client>...
Christian Hostettler
ASW27 is more expensive than the LS6, but the performance
is also better
Performance:
especially in stronger conditions the ASW-27 is better in climb
with high wingload and in gliding too. The handling is good and the
behavior around stalling speed harmless as long as you stay in the
allowed CG range. I could compare my 27 with Paul Mathiews LS6
the last day in Narromine, defending my first place. I climbed bet-
ter, could fly slower and I arrived the next climb after each glide
above the LS6.
Weight: I'm 65kg and ordered therefore the 27 with 38l fuselage
tank. The new ASW27b version has integrated water tanks and the
dumping time now is reasonable fast; 3min for 150l in the wings. I
flew the 27 now most of the time with over 50kg/m2 here in Aust-
ralia - it's fun.
Ballast Limits:
500kg over all = 55kg/m2
Landing Characteristics:
I bought the 27 because of the outstanding flap system in the landing
configuration, which no other glider can match. Moving the flaps in
landing position, moves the ailerons to negative. That gives you best
handling and you can steer the glider still with 2 fingers. Even with
full brakes you are able to round the approach and touch down nicely
with 75km/h (fuselage tank full). The big wheel with the hydraulic
brakes
stop you almost immediately if you have to. Thats why I bought the 27
for flying in the Alps and being able to land even diagonally into a
soccer
field. With full flaps and brakes the speed will not exceed 140km/h in a
steep approach and the speed decreases very fast when rounding out.
There is no need to push the flaps to negative after landing like you
have to do with several other gliders.
Winch and tow:
I tow high in Switzerland and low here in Australia - no problems at
all.
With the standard procedure: Roll on with negative flaps and brakes
out you will never have problems with wings touching the ground.
I flew the Swiss Nationals 1998 in Samedan (1750mSL) with normally
120l water with winch launch, and I had no problems at all. You get as
much height as other gliders.
Assembly
I don't believe you install wings and elevator in 90 seconds beginning
with the wings in the trailer! I install the 27 after opening the Cobra
trailer in 10min including elevators and winglets and then give it 10min
more to tape to glider nicely. All connections are automatic.
Material:
Schleicher has a new paint shop now. Because toxic softeners are not
allowed in gelcoat anymore their quality is not the same as the old
gliders once have been (our clubs 72 Cirrus still has no cracks). Order
the gliders now in Polyurethane finish, thats better, especially for hot
and sunny countries like Australia....
Visibility and comfort:
Thats a rule for all gliders: your head should not be more than 50mm
(2 inch) below the canopy to give you best visibility. The 27 canopy
is cut out more to the back than the LS6. I can see the elevator when
turning my head. Visibility foreword is the same.
Comfort is fine, enough space for me. Due to the installed fuselage
tank above and behind the spar, the storage room there is reduced .
but there is enough room behind and beside the seat. The seats back
can be adjusted in flight. Order the glider with two battery holders
for 2x7Ah thats good for flying 3 days with GPS, Logger and the
standard stuff without loading them. In your case you have anyway
to put some led into the tail for adjusting the CG. There is place
for a third battery in the tail.
I'm happy with the ASW27 and I think there is only the Ventus-2a
which can about share the same performance. But my choice fell to
the ASW27, because of far better visibility, better comfort, more
space in the cockpit, canopy opening to the front, hydraulic brakes,
better flap system, wheel suspension and also usable for big pilots
and therefore better to sell, especially for clubs. I only would change
it for the newer ASW27b with integrated tanks and Polyurethane
painting.
Ch. Hostettler
_______________________________________________
RFR <read.r...@pmintl.ch> wrote in message
news:876on2$283$1...@pollux.ip-plus.net...
| I looking to upgrade from my Libelle H 301 to something with a little
more
| weight and higher speed limits. I have some time in an LS-6a, and
none in
| an ASW-27.
|
| Would anybody be willing to try and point out some of the pro's and
con's of
| each LS-6b or c, not the a version, and the 27.
|
| Prices on used models - if available
| Performance / handling
| Weight (I'm 95kg)
| Ballast limits
| Short field and normal landing characteristics
| Winch tow characteristics
| Assembly - (90 seconds for the H 301)
| Material, i.e. Gel-Coat, durability
| Visibility / Comfort / Storage of water, food, batteries, etc.
|
| Thanks,
| Roderick
|
|
|
|
David Woodhouse
information rather than the usual "IMHO" stuff.
thanks .. woody
Ricardas Rusteika
Martin wrote:
>
> Is the LAK 17 A also a 15 m ship?
Yes, it is 15m ship with optional winglets, extending span to 18m.
Ricardas
Shaber CJ
>I'm happy with the ASW27 and I think there is only the Ventus-2a
>which can about share the same performance. But my choice fell to
>the ASW27, because of far better visibility, better comfort, more
I had an ASW-27 on order and canceled it to go to an open class glider. I did
have a concern that at my weight of 230lbs (I am not fat just solid, er oh
well) and with the small wing of the 27 (my min wing loading would have been
about 8.4 lbs) that I would not be able to climb in weak thermals. Any larger
pilots want to comment on the 27 in weak conditions at wing loadings of 8.4
plus.
I used to own an ASW-24, it sure is hard to beat the quality of gliders coming
out of the AS factory.
Craig
Robert Ehrlich
> ...
> there is a total contradiction between the two versions
> ...
After a closer look, the German version of the English text is also
present, just before the article contradicting it. But I didn't find
the English equivalent of the second article.
Christian Husvik
>
> Martin wrote:
> >
> > I Read something about in Aerokurier:
> >
> > http://www.aerokurier.rotor.com/akIntro/aeHome.htm
>
> as well as a German one. [...]there is a total contradiction
> between the two versions, the English text saying that use
> of a nose hook will soon be mandatory and the German text saying
> that the use of the nose hook may soon be no more mandatory.
Well, as far as I could understand, there was no contradiction between
the
two articles. The German one states:
"F-Schlepp nur noch an Bugkupplungen?
Braunschweig: Den F-Schlepp von Segelflugzeugen an
Schwerpunktkupplungen will das LBA generell untersagen.[...]"
Which I interpret as:
"Aero-tow only with nose-hooks?
The LBA (whatever that is, my comment) will generally prohibit
the use of center of gravity hooks for aero towing of gliders."
And a belly-hook (the word used in the Englich article) is the same as a
CG-hook, isn't it?
Now, neither English nor German is my native language, so I won't claim
absolute certainty on this. Maybe a native German speaker can enlighten
us?
Christian 8-)
Eric Greenwell
In article <389d9fa1...@news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>,
mau...@funsystem.de says...
= >What's that: Will it apply to all gliders or only to new ones? And what will be
= >with gliders which can't have a nose hook installed due to structural
= >limitations of the nose?
=
= An attempt to push the World Class in Germany...?
=
= I wonder where the boneyard for all these beautiful ASW-20's will
= be....
No boneyard for the ASW 20. The factory has a retrofit "nose hook"
(actually a bit aft of the nose) for it. I put one in my ASW 20 over
10 years ago, and liked it very much.
--
>>Delete the "REMOVE" from my e-mail address to reply by e-mail<<
Eric Greenwell
Al Schreiter
They both state that the LBA (Luftfahrtbundesamt = the German version
of the FAA) proposes to make nosehooks mandatory for aerotowing,
because of the high accident rate on CofG hooks while areotowing.
Remove NOSPAM from return address before replying
Robert Ehrlich
Yes I agree, but as I said in my self-correction, this article was followed in
the german version by another one saying:
Nicht länger sinnvoll:
Zwang zur Bugkupplung
Eine vom Bundesverkehrs-
ministerium in Auftrag
gegebene Untersuchung zum
F-Schlepp, die am Deutschen
Zentrum für Luft- und
Raumfahrt (DLR) in
Braunschweig durchgeführt
wurde, legt nahe, die
Verpflichtung aufzuheben,
die beim Schlepp mit
Motorseglern die
Bugkupplung
vorschreibt. ___mehr
According to my understanding of German and English, this may be translated as:
It has no more sense:
Mandatory usage of nose hook
An experimentation that was made
in the Center for Air and Space
Transport (DLR) at Braunschweig
for the Federal Department of Transport
was near to remove the rule making
mandatory the use of the nose hook by
tow with a motorglider. ___more
The ___mehr (__more) point to an article saying that the experiment showed no
significative difference in the handling using nose hook or belly hook, but
a significative difference was found between tow using an airplane and a
motorglider, the last one being more secure due to lower forces and accelrations.
The conclusion is that the present obligation of using the nose hook, which
applies only to the tow by a motorglider, forces the gliders having only a
belly hook to a less secure tow using an airplane.
Robert Ehrlich
>
> I Read something about in Aerokurier:
>
> http://www.aerokurier.rotor.com/akIntro/aeHome.htm
>
Very interesting. They have an English version of the text
as well as a German one. As long as I understand both languages
(my native language is French) there is a total contradiction
between the two versions, the English text saying that use
of a nose hook will soon be mandatory and the German text saying
that the use of the nose hook may soon be no more mandatory.
Anyway, if my understanding is correct, according to the German text,
the use of the nose hook was/is mandatory only for aerotow using a
motorglider, not an airplane.
Andreas Maurer
<martin...@dlr.de> wrote:
>Andreas Maurer wrote:
>>
>[...]
>> Buy yourself an LS-6 and your wife a great vaaction. Or two. Or three.
>
>Two or three LS-6's or wives?
Vacations.
Wives would be too stressing and too expensive. One LS-6 is enough as
long as he cannot split himself in two.
Bye
Andreas
RFR
>I had an ASW-27 on order and canceled it to go to an open class glider. I
did
>have a concern that at my weight of 230lbs (I am not fat just solid, er oh
>well) and with the small wing of the 27 (my min wing loading would have
been
>about 8.4 lbs) that I would not be able to climb in weak thermals. Any
larger
>pilots want to comment on the 27 in weak conditions at wing loadings of
8.4
>plus.
I don't know that the weight problem will go away in an open-class ship. In
my ASH-25E, the two of us together are 185 - 190 kg. The motor is out, which
helps, but carry almost 11kg of ballast, including the battery in the tail.
In this configuration, the ship does not climb very that well in weak
conditions, at least not as well as the H 301. Again, I'm just too heavy
for it.
Cheers,
Rod
Tango4
Christian Hostettler
manage with it and keep the discus in check after modifying the wing
to the b version and fixing the winglets. The E version was helpless
for European conditions - too heavy. Engines and 15m wingspan are
an unlucky combination. But I admit, that in turbulent conditions the
profile of the 24 was a bit sharp. Still better than the LS7, but not
tolerant enough for micro turbulence.
For my taste even the 27 could have a deeper chord in the outer wing
section. Most designers realized too late, that with today's knowledge
about winglets, the wing itself has not to be designed for absolute
elliptic lift distribution and therefore minimized induced drag. It is
better to have more chord at the end of the wings to give you a better
feel for the airmass, and reduce the additionally created drag with a
good winglet design. But I have no problems with high wingloads with
the 27, and no problems in climb, even if the wing is small. But I
flew in a rented 27 before and during the World championships in
St.Auban 200h, before I bought one myself. Just wanted to be sure
after the experiences with the 24 to be on the better side.
Feel for he airmass is another chapter. Good sealed flaps and ailerons
create more friction, but ensure that the laminar flow passes onto
the flap (lower side of 26 and 27). The LS8 gives you more feel for
the air than a 27, but the sealing system is different. When I have
once to change the sealing, I will measure and fly it once without
the outer seals, just to see how it feels.
If I would not compete in comps anymore I would look for a 18m wingspan
flapped glider. Thats the best compromise I think between fun, costs
and necessary infrastructure.
best greetings
Christian
_________________________________________________
Shaber CJ <shab...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000204101342...@ng-cq1.aol.com...
| I had an ASW-27 on order and canceled it to go to an open class
glider. I did
| have a concern that at my weight of 230lbs (I am not fat just solid,
er oh
| well) and with the small wing of the 27 (my min wing loading would
have been
| about 8.4 lbs) that I would not be able to climb in weak thermals.
Any larger
| pilots want to comment on the 27 in weak conditions at wing loadings
of 8.4
| plus.
Christian Husvik
>
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:42:27 +0100, Martin Spieck
> <martin...@dlr.de> wrote:
> >Two or three LS-6's or wives?
>
> Vacations.
> Wives would be too stressing and too expensive. One LS-6 is enough as
> long as he cannot split himself in two.
But with one wife and only one LS-6, which glider is _he_ going to fly?
Christian 8-)
Andreas Maurer
> Any larger
>pilots want to comment on the 27 in weak conditions at wing loadings of 8.4
>plus.
A little bit worse than the Ventus 2, but still noticably better than
ASW-20, LS-6 and ventus.
Bye
Andreas