Info on LAK-12?
Joe C. Parrish
>Just wanted to see if anybody has any experience or related info
>regarding the LAK-12. This plane is advertised every month in
>'SOARING' and the tech data looks pretty impressive.
>
>The list price is $27k which outwardly appears to make the LAK
>quite cost competitive based upon the tech data alone.
>
>Any info, pro or con, would be appreciated.
Abe--
Shane Nietzey owns and flies a LAK-12 (SN) at the Skyline Soaring Club in
New Market, VA. He doesn't have Internet access, but I'd be glad to
forward any specific questions to him.
It's a very pretty Open Class ship. Those long wings are impressive, but
I don't know how much fun it would be to land off-field. (Not an
indictment of the LAK-12 over any other Open Class machine.) Shane has
not yet entered it in any contests, so I can't say how it stacks up
against the competition. He does have several long flights in wave,
ridge, and thermal, and seems to enjoy flying it quite a bit.
If you're ever in the Shenandoah Valley/Northern Virginia area, let me
know and I'll arrange for you to meet Shane and SN.
--Joe
--
Joe C. Parrish
Space Systems Laboratory, University of Maryland
College Park, MD
Abe Dresler (FCMC IR)
regarding the LAK-12. This plane is advertised every month in
'SOARING' and the tech data looks pretty impressive.
The list price is $27k which outwardly appears to make the LAK
quite cost competitive based upon the tech data alone.
Any info, pro or con, would be appreciated.
--
==========================================================
Abe Dresler
Systems Manager Fuji Capital Markets
a...@nyc.fcmc.com 2 World Trade Center
80th Floor
Voice: 212-898-2865 New York, NY 10048
FAX : 212-488-3177
==========================================================
C.C.O'Callaghan
On Sat, 7 Jan 1995, Abe Dresler wrote:
> Just wanted to see if anybody has any experience or related info
> regarding the LAK-12. This plane is advertised every month in
> 'SOARING' and the tech data looks pretty impressive.
>
> The list price is $27k which outwardly appears to make the LAK
> quite cost competitive based upon the tech data alone.
>
> Any info, pro or con, would be appreciated.
>
>
> --
>
> ==========================================================
> Abe Dresler
> Systems Manager Fuji Capital Markets
> a...@nyc.fcmc.com 2 World Trade Center
> 80th Floor
> Voice: 212-898-2865 New York, NY 10048
I had the opportunity to talk to Gerry Gaudet recently, who is importing
these gliders. The LAK 12 looks like a good value, at least in terms of
the quality of construction and performance. The factory is also an
impressive facility, with much of the technology generally reserved for
much larger defense concerns. I was ffered the opportunity to fly the
ship, but a decent day hasn't matched my schedule yet. From local pilots
who have flown it, it sounds reasonable docile, though its spoilers are
underpowered. This means that it is an energy sensitive glider,which
means you need to be a fairly competent pilot to land it safely. I asked
if there were any plans to put bigger brakes on future models. The answer
was "not at the moment."
I've heard (rumor only) that resale on these gliders isn't keeping pace
with other brands.
LAK is also manufacturing a 15 meter ship with pretty good performance
numbers. I heard recently that one was broken in the air when
overstressed. If anyone has information (free of marketing hyperbole)
available, I'd appreciate it if you could e-mail me.
The LAK 12 has a lot of plusses... but there is a two edged minus: the 20
meter wings are unsegmented. Therefore, they are heavy (180 lbs each) and
the trailer that holds them is long (about 12 meters). This is the same
approach taken by Schleicher with the ASH 26.
BTW, I'll be calling sales reps over the next few weeks for general
comments on their products. Any questions I should include?
YT
Chris
Toby Wright
>
> > Just wanted to see if anybody has any experience or related info
> > regarding the LAK-12. This plane is advertised every month in
> > 'SOARING' and the tech data looks pretty impressive.
> >
> > The list price is $27k which outwardly appears to make the LAK
> > quite cost competitive based upon the tech data alone.
In the UK LAK 12's are for sale at sterling 18,000 including a brand new
trailer and basic instruments, a number of these gliders have been sold
and do seem to represent good value for money.
The LAK12 is roughly based around the ASW17, giving it a similar
performance, and supposedly better handling, the main difference is
that the LAK has a 2 piece wing,whereas the 17 had a 4 piece wing. This
obviously makes rigging slightly harder work, but from personal
experience, the weight is comparable with a 19m Kestrel.
> From local pilots
> who have flown it, it sounds reasonable docile, though its spoilers are
> underpowered. This means that it is an energy sensitive glider,which
> means you need to be a fairly competent pilot to land it safely. I asked
> if there were any plans to put bigger brakes on future models. The answer
> was "not at the moment."
As I understand it, from the uk importer, there is an airbrake mod
similiar to that done to cirrus's etc where a second set of paddles are
fitted, all uk imported gliders have this mod done as new. Also if your
not a 'competent' pilot should you even be considering getting a 'high'
performance glider of this type. Most early glass gliders, eg cirrus,
have poor approach control unless a sensible approach speed is flown,
the LAK is certainly not a beginers glider, but with a little
experience on type most people should have no problems. In the UK where
our outlandings are often done in 'playing fields', there has only been
one case of a LAK crashing due to 'approach control problems', and that was
more down to poor field selection than the glider.
> I've heard (rumor only) that resale on these gliders isn't keeping pace
> with other brands.
This is probably true, the LAK isnt a 'german' glider, and as such a
relativly unknown quantity, although theyve been flying them in the
USSR for 10 or more years at least. I think the LAK12 appeals to a
particular type of pilot, if you only want to keep your glider for 3
years then trade it in for something new then you should get a Discus,
however if your looking for value for money, then the LAK offers better
than Discus or even comparable current 15m model performance for the
price of a poor condition, 15 year old, 15m ship like a 20. And your
getting a new ship. In the long term this price difference will
probably level out as they become more familiar.
> LAK is also manufacturing a 15 meter ship with pretty good performance
> numbers. I heard recently that one was broken in the air when
> overstressed.
The LAK 17, a 15/18m flapped glider was first developed about 5 years
ago, the prototype was flown hors concors in the 1993 UK 15m nationals
where it finished in the top 5. Peformance would seem to be comparable
with an LS6c, however this was only the prototype. Unfortunately it
broke up in flight, later the following year, while undergoing
further testing, seriously injuring the test pilot. Since then
developments seem to have slowed, mainly due to a lack of hard currency
in Lithuania which is needed to aquire materials etc. Our UK agent
keeps getting promised more info, but it never appears.
The main feature of the LAK17 is its elliptical and very flexible
wing, when flown in the uk by local pilots they reported it to
be a good, typical 'current generation' handling glider.
Well thats a UK view anyway, I understand there are a few laks on the
continent as well, anybody know any different ?
Toby Wright, in the rain at Coventry gliding club, England. :(
\ /
\ / I'd rather be soaring, SHK style
\/\/
-----------------------------------(__)-----------------------------------
Jeffry Stetson
Software department
(abe@moondance) writes:
>Just wanted to see if anybody has any experience or related info
>regarding the LAK-12. This plane is advertised every month in
>'SOARING' and the tech data looks pretty impressive.
>
I've flown the Lak once but I have a fair amount of experience with
the Jantar 2A so my first impressions may be useful.
The LAK-12 flys nicely - for a 20m ship, it's a fraction lighter
than the Jantar 2A and maybe a bit quicker in roll - though there
isn't much in it. I am 6'2" high and only fitted in with the seat
back out, this isn't very comfortable.
The stick is offset by about 45 degrees, this is comfortable in the
air but makes it more difficult to see where neutral is when
starting.
The brakes are reasonable, they had a mod to increase the paddle
area.
The tow release is operated by a small knob attached to a metal rod
that runs in bushes. It is close to the side of the cockpit and is
fairly difficult to get at and operate. This will make it more
difficult to release in a hurry. The offset stick will increase the
chance of dropping a wing because it's easy to start without the
stick in the middle.
I think that this combination could give trouble - it will be easy
to drop a wing on take off and difficult to release.
It's not a beginner's glider, same as the Nimbus 2, ASW 17 or
Jantar 2. If I was buying I'd get a second hand one of these in
preference. In any case these are all much better performance for
the money than the Discus etc. but they are all more of a problem
rigging and retrieving and are less fashionable.
Best Wishes Chris Rowland
Alistair W A Murray
> In article <3erfh3$q...@kwuz.nerc-keyworth.ac.uk>, Alistair W A Murray <A.Mu...@bas.ac.uk> says:
> >
>
> I would say he did well after his second mistake; not releasing on the
> takeoff roll. The first mistake was making his first flight in a
> machine just after annual inpection. Why does you club allow an
> "inexperienced" pilot to do this? Or better stated, why is there not a
> named check pilot to make these first flights after annual when the
> chances of mechanical problems are much higher. At the same time, the
> club must be congratulated in teaching the flying skills necessary to
> have avoided a tragedy following a couple of pretty poor decisions.
>
> (only my opinion)
>
> Jeffry Stetson ... Comm ASEL, Pvt SES & Glider, Instrument Airplane
> EAA #124158, MAPA #10921, AOPA #552326
> 7 Young Eagles Flown
> Mooney M20E "Super 21"
I would like to record that the flight in question did not take place from our club!
It would be unfair of me to point the finger at anyone else in the circumstances.
Yes, it might have been appropriate to pull off in the early stages of the take-off
roll - but I guess my friend was perhaps preoccupied with keeping the wings level
having previously only flown 15m. I have experienced a lack of ASI in a first flight
myself - but again I didn't notice this until clear of the ground. This was due to
the tow rings interferring with the flow of air into the pitot. I guessed that this
might have been the problem and so hung on to tow. In any case - like my friend in
the LAK I wanted plenty of height to sort out any problem before I had to contemplate
a landing!
At my own club it is usual (depending on the experience of the owner) for an approved
glider inspector or experienced instructor to make the first flight after an "annual".
Our club does indeed have a good pilot training programme with a strong emphasis on
flight safety. But perhaps this is to start another thread...?
The point of my original posting was rather to make the point that the LAK12 may not
be so fearsome to land! But I cannot substantiate this from personal experience.
The above represents my own views and not that of my friend , club or
anyone else.
Alistair
Günther Seemann
>What do our friends in Europe have to say about the LS-4 as a glider
>for low time pilots?
I agree with you completely! Although I don't have any experiences in flying
Schweizers (are there any in Europe, especially in Germany?) but I know Ka8
and L-Spatz, which were meant to be the ideal beginners glider for a long
time. Now these ships are growing old and more and more clubs replace them
with glass ships. For the low time pilots in many clubs the Astir is the first
single seater but there is no problem to take a LS4 or a Discus instead
(except the price the club paid for the ship :-).
-------------------------------------------
Guenther Seemann ---+---
|
-----------(.)-----------
LS6-a, D-0616
guy byars
|> In article <28727...@omarama.actrix.gen.nz>,
|> Bruce Hoult at WorldGlide '95 <Br...@omarama.actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
|> >
|> >Who on earth looks at the airspeed indicator on the takeoff roll?
|> >
|> The motorglider pilots pay *very* close attention to the ASI on take-off.
As well he should, but a motor-glider is a different situation. When I am taking off in a
power plane, I scan the ASI to ensure that acceleration is normal and to rotate when I am above
the correct speed. I could imagine the same concerns in a motor glider. However, when I am on
tow in a glider, _ALL_ my attention is on the tow plane. When I become airborn is the only
airspeed data-point I need.
Moreover, aborting a tow due to an inop ASI seems riskier (for me) than continuing a
flight without one.
I once took up a club 1-26 in 5 degree F weather. After takeoff, I found ALL the insturments
(ASI, ALT, VARIO) were inop... the moisture in the system had frozen solid. The flight was
uneventful, and fun. Although I had no trouble judging airspeed in the pattern, it was very
difficult to judge the altitude when I reached 3000 ft for release. I pulled when I thought
I was about there which, according to a later converstion with the tow pilot, turned out to
be 4300 ft.
Tom Kreyche
loved it! No problems at all, but I'm extremely cautious. Now I've got 1/2
a Discus B and love it even more, but certainly wouldn't turn down an
opportunity for more LS4 air time.
-tk
Roy D Clark Jr MD
>
>
>What do our friends in Europe have to say about the LS-4 as a glider
>for low time pilots?
>
"When first produced, the LS4 offered the highest performance of all the
Standard class machines. It has superb handling and stalling
characteristics, and extremely powerful airbrakes.
One clever feature is the positioning of the undercarriage and airbrake
lever together on the left-hand side of the cockpit. The arrangement is
such that it is difficult to get at the airbrake lever with the
undercarriage in the up position. As a result, the pilot cannot forget
to lower the the wheel before landing.
Compared with some of the other designs, the clearance between the
bottom of the LS4's fuselage and the ground is rather small, and the
aircraft sits on the ground at a very shallow angle. This might be a
problem when flying from a rough site and landing on stony ground,
although I have never heard of anyone actually having trouble."
Other glass ships Piggott recommends for a first (low-time pilot) glass
glider:
Older gliders: ASW15, Open Cirrus, Club Libelle, Astir CS and variants
Modern Club Class: ASK23, G 102/Club III, SZD Junior, DG 300
Club, Pegasus Club, ASW19 Club
Competition gliders: Jantar Std, ASW19, Pegasus, Discus
Mike Cohler
>
> In article <3f1898$6...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, dno...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David H Noyes) writes:
> |> In article <28727...@omarama.actrix.gen.nz>,
> |> Bruce Hoult at WorldGlide '95 <Br...@omarama.actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
> |> >
> |> >Who on earth looks at the airspeed indicator on the takeoff roll?
> (ASI, ALT, VARIO) were inop... the moisture in the system had frozen solid. The flight was
> uneventful, and fun. Although I had no trouble judging airspeed in the pattern, it was very
> difficult to judge the altitude when I reached 3000 ft for release. I pulled when I thought
> I was about there which, according to a later converstion with the tow pilot, turned out to
> be 4300 ft.
In the UK we have something called a Bronze Certificate, which is the
minimum qualification (MINIMUM !) to go cross country. However as
part of the flying to achieve this you are required to do a test
flight with certain instruments covered up. The critical test of
judgement is for a pilot to be able to fly a reasonably normal circuit
using no altimeter. This is not because of the rather rare
occasion when the instruments fail, as you had, but because the
act of leaving on a long cross country, where the terrain might
be at rather different height from where you took off, and in addition
the local pressure may be different from where you took off also.
In this situation using your judgement to achieve a circuit and
out-landing is crucial. In addition, once a reasonable amount of
flying time in gliders has been achieved, most pilots have little
difficulty in flying the machine without an ASI, because the other
clues to speed such as airflow noise, attitude, and control feel,
become almost automatic. Even a glider which is new to the pilot
would not be a major problem, although I would be erring on the side
of slightly higher than normal speed on approach if I was flying a
new type when the ASI failed ! However if I was to do this from
a marginally small field and the ASI failed, then I guess it just
would not be my lucky day !! It is a different matter for the
inexperienced pilot though, and much more watching-over is required
in that case.
Mike
C.C.O'Callaghan
"Out there on course it'll just be
you and your glider, so it's important that one of you know how to
land out. And, as for you, I have my doubts."
It's easy to forget, as you gain experience, just how tough those first
cross-countries were. And the less attention a novitiate has to spend on
flying the airplane, the better off (s)he'll be when it comes to paying
attention to the variables involved with landing out.
BTW, I owned an E model 1-26. I'd be willing to short field it against
any other glider out there. It flew slowly, came down fast (with or
without spoilers), and could take the abuse of stones and furrows. I was
comfortable with flying that glider from an hour into the first flight.
To this day, there is no attitude in a 1-26 that frightens me, though I
can't say as much for cleaner ships. Having confidence in your ability to
pilot an aircraft, to be its master throughout the flight is a good
thing. Feeling comfortable in glass takes a little more time. A hundred
hours, a silver badge, and a few landouts in a Ka-8, 1-26, or such is a
wise apprenticeship to first glass.
YT
Chris
John Cochrane
>and very forgiving in its stall characteristics, but like most standard
>class ships, it goes quite fast during the approach.
I'm one of those low time pilots, and can still remember my transition to
a Pegasus 4 years ago.
The number 1 issue is building up excess speed
on landing. Experienced pilots probably forgot how it was.
In all a new pilot's
training, he's flying around at 40-50, and it takes concious effort to
jam the stick forward and zoom around at 55 in the pattern, with the
wind howling through the cracks in the canopy. To make the trainer, or
even a grob or ASK 21, go more than 60 you have to point the nose straight
down and hold it there.
Then you move to the Pegaus/LS4, where you spend
all day cruising around between 70 and 90, quiet as a mouse, hardly nosing
down at all. The pattern is now a time when you have to conciously slow
down, with your attention on limiting speed not on keeping it up. A little
distraction or nervousness on final and the runway is going by at 80 kts.
And you float, and float, and float.
Moral: these are fine gliders to transition to, but start with a LONG runway,
and don't go xc until you can land the thing.
John Cochrane
john.c...@gsb.uchicago.edu
David H Noyes
Mike Cohler <md...@unix.york.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>In the UK we have something called a Bronze Certificate, which is the
Yes, we have the Bronze Certificate in the U.S., too. But what we don't
have is any central gliding authority which says anybody has to have it to
be qualified to go cross country. Each instructor decides if the solo
student is prepared. The PPL decides for himself if he is flying his own
glider. If it's a club glider, a club officer decides. And this club officer
may never have gone cross country! (:-|)
Francis Whiteley
In article <3f17do$5...@crl12.crl.com>, E Dale Thompson (da...@crl.com) writes:
>I _always_ peek at the ASI on the take-off roll! Much easier than
>shooting an approach by feel.
>
>Am I alone?
>
No, I too on aerotow, and especially prior to climb rotation on
winch launch.
CTK(UK) Francis-Kestrel 19
MGI...@puknet.puk.ac.za
pukrs7.puk.ac.za!mgicgdt.puk.ac.za!mgiasj
From: mgi...@puknet.puk.ac.za (Jonker, AS)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: Partial Panel flying, was ( Re: Info on LAK-12)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 07:32:38 GMT
Organization: University of Potchefstroom
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<1995Jan13.0...@leeds.ac.uk>
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Hi there,
A lot of people have written about ASI not working. Is it not customary to
see that the ASI is working during the DI. By gently blowing into the pitot
one can definately see if the ASI is working. By gently pressing your hands
over the static ports one can see if the static is leaking by looking at the
vario. I think it is just bad preflight inspection that leads to
basic instruments not working.
Regards Attie
MD...@unix.york.ac.uk
Path: news.starnet.net!wupost!uhog.mit.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com
howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!festival!leeds.ac.uk!news
From: md...@unix.york.ac.uk (Mike Cohler)
Subject: Re: Partial Panel flying, was ( Re: Info on LAK-12)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 11:59:52 +0000 (GMT)
References: <3eu2fv$11...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<1995Jan13.0...@leeds.ac.uk>
<mgia...@puknet.puk.ac.za>
Lines: 10
mgi...@puknet.puk.ac.za (Jonker, AS) wrote:
>
> Hi there,
> A lot of people have written about ASI not working. Is it not customary to
> see that the ASI is working during the DI. By gently blowing into the pitot
> one can definately see if the ASI is working. By gently pressing your hands
IN general I agree about doing a proper pre-flight.. but "blowing"
into the pitot, I would definitelt outlaw at all costs.... you can
really damage your asi doing that !
Günther Seemann
>thing. Feeling comfortable in glass takes a little more time. A hundred
>hours, ...
That is not true! As an instructor I have no problems to get students to the
Astir cs after soloing on ASK13. The key is we lost our last Ka8 2 years ago
and we sold our Twin. To make the german license the student have to
transition to a one seater and we have only 2 Astir cs and a DG 300.
>a silver badge, and a few landouts in a Ka-8, 1-26, or such is a
>wise apprenticeship to first glass.
Hmmm, siver badge? Is this really a big deal? One requirement for getting the
german license is a 50km x-country flight. Many students make more km.
S...@wzl-mtq1.wzl.rwth-aachen.de
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From: S...@WZL-MTQ1.WZL.RWTH-AACHEN.DE (Günther Seemann)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: Low time pilots in LS-4's (was: Re: Info on LAK-12?)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 14:35:01
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From: "C.C.O'Callaghan" <5ni...@access2.digex.net>
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: Low time pilots in LS-4's (was: Re: Info on LAK-12?)
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Guenther and others,
I have long been a proponent of trashing all of our older gliders and
replacing them with glass. Most glass ships built during the past ten
years are exceptionally docile and relatively easy to fly. If we trained
exclusively in these ships here in the US, the transition to such ships
as the LS-4 and Discus would be easier for students. But we do not. Most
training ships and available club ships have low wing loading and
correspondingly low approach speeds. Thus the transition to glass, at
least in the US, is a bigger step than in Europe.
As far as comfort in glass is concerned, you should read my posts more
carefully. I have no problems with low time pilots flying these new glass
gliders. My concern comes only with off-field landings in them. If you
are limited to high performance ships, then yu will have to make due.
What I have suggested is that you make your first cross country flights
in the most forgiving glider yu can find, since it is likely that you
will not recognize the slope of the field you have chsen, or fail to
correctly predict surface winds, or land in a crop that was higher than
you guessed, or discover just how rocky most corn fields really are. I
think many of us forget just how little we newwhen we went out on our
own the first time, and most of us probably didi our first
cross-countries in something other than fast glass. I'm not so concerned
for the safety of the pilot as I am for his enthusiasm. Busting a glider
is no fun. Best to avoid it if possible. And it is certain that you are
much more likely to damage a ship off-field sooner than later. So why not
start with something tough, maneuverable, easy and forgiving to help
inspire a student's confidence?
As for silver distance in the US, it is a goal never achieved by most
American glider pilots. Our sport is not so structured as the European
model. This is both a plus and a minus. But from the standpoint of
training, our pilots are not as thoroughly trained in x-country
techniques, nor do most operations have an organized support system for
young pilots wishing to start x-country flying. There are notable
exceptions, but for the most part we throw pilots into the deep end of
the pool and let them learn to swim for themselves.
Plus the fact that American attention spans are not quite as long a
European's. The normal half life of a glider pilot is about 3 years. By
the sixth year, the majority of certified US glider pilots have found
some other diversion to amuse themselves. And many of our long term
pilots fly no more than 25 hours per year. You'll run ito this problem
soon now that MTV is available worldwide.
YT
Chris
C.C.O'Callaghan
David H Noyes
C.C.O'Callaghan <5ni...@access2.digex.net> wrote:
>
>........ American attention spans are not quite as long as
Is *that* what causes the turnover?!? Who'da thunk it? Ban MTV! Before
it's TOO LATE! ||:-()
guy byars
|> In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.950113...@access4.digex.net> "C.C.O'Callaghan" <5ni...@access4.digex.net> writes:
|>
|> >thing. Feeling comfortable in glass takes a little more time. A hundred
|> >hours, ...
|>
|> That is not true!
I disagree too. There is a tendency to over generalize about "glass"
sailplanes. To look at extreme examples, look at Jim Stoia's Baker
McMillian Kadet, the oldest flying glider. According to Jim, that
planes flies so poorly, he won't even fly it unless the conditions are
perfect and there is almost no wind. Evidently it has trouble turning.
It, however, is made of wood and fabric, not glass.
Now, which plane would you turn a low time pilot loose in, the Baker
McMillian Kadet or an ASK-23?
To say that it takes a 100 hours to feel comfortable in a "glass" sailplane
just isn't true. You need to look at the individual glider. It took me
only a few hours to be comfortable in the LS-7 (my first single seat
glass experience), but I doubt I would EVER be comfortable in an
ASW-12 (18meter? span with no spoilers or landing flaps!).
And what about the Schweizer 1-35? It has landing flaps instead of
spoilers. It is a high performance glider made of metal, not glass, but if I
were an instructor, I would have reservations about putting a low time pilot
in one. Landing with only flaps can be tricky.
And what about the Caproni A-21? A huge 21 meter ship with retractable
gear and flaps. It is made of metal, not glass. Suitable for a low
time pilot? Probably not.
And the Schweizer 2-32 (a huge 3 passenger metal plane) probably isn't for
low time pilots either.
And the Waco CG-4 cargo glider, it's made of wood and fabric.... but I
digress....
Make your evaluations based on the indivdual glider's flight
characteristics, not the construction material.
Dr John Brooks
>From: md...@unix.york.ac.uk (Mike Cohler)
>Subject: Re: Partial Panel flying, was ( Re: Info on LAK-12)
>In the UK we have something called a Bronze Certificate, which is the
>minimum qualification (MINIMUM !) to go cross country. However as
>part of the flying to achieve this you are required to do a test
>flight with certain instruments covered up. The critical test of
>judgement is for a pilot to be able to fly a reasonably normal circuit
>using no altimeter.
In our club (Wanganui-Manawatu) we have an annual competition in which *every*
solo pilot including instructors is expected to compete in order to qualify
for further solo flying. The Landing Competition is to fly a circuit with no
altimeter or ASI (CFI sits in the back with full instruments). Release is
after wave-off at a height of approximately 1500 ft. Pilot is requested to
fly at two nominated speeds during descent to circuit height, and pilot must
indicate to CFI when glider has descended to 800 ft at which time circuit is
commenced. Approach is into an "artificial outlanding paddock" on the
aerodrome marked out by toi-tois (the seed heads from a sort of prairie grass
which stand about 6ft high and can be pushed into the ground to form the
fence. Failure to clear the "fence" causes only embarassment and no damage).
Points are awarded for overall airmanship, e.g. smooth takeoff, correct
trimming during tow, speed control on circuit, lookout etc, correct nomination
of speeds and heights, short landing (without banging it down!) . Hitting
either of the fences results in heavy penalties.
It's fun and it pays off:
After a major panel rebuild, I took my Kestrel T59D for a flight and
discovered that all connections to the pitot and statics, via a multi-point
connector, had separated. No ASI or vario and altimeter a bit jumpy. The
temperature in the cockpit went up a bit on approach, but all went smoothly,
due in no small part to the confidence instilled by the landing comp.
========== * Dr. John Brooks
!! * Dept. Food Tech.
.// * Massey University
.//. * Palmerston North
./// * New Zealand
.///. * Ph. 06-3569-099
=================================================== * Fax 06-3505-655
.////
////.
.//.
/. << GET HIGH, STAY HIGH >>
J.BR...@massey.ac.nz
massey.ac.nz!J.Brooks
From: J.Br...@massey.ac.nz (Dr John Brooks)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: Partial Panel flying, was ( Re: Info on LAK-12)
Organization: , Massey University, Palmerston North
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <J.Brooks.3...@massey.ac.nz>
References: <3eu2fv$11...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<1995Jan13.0...@leeds.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ft-pc12.massey.ac.nz
Keywords: Instrument failure, landing comps
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Jim Meiklejohn
Considering what one goes through to become "accepted" in the soaring
community, MTV provides an interesting alternative. Is it possible that a
scenerio such as that below is being played out the world over?
1. With great enthusiasm show up to the local gliderport and be ignored.
2. Ask about the club and be told to go away.
3. Go to a meeting and also be told to go away.
4. Send in an application anyway, and go to the field.
5. Be ignored some more.
6. Rig your glider, either bring crew or a one man rig as you are still
being observed, not helped.
7. Wait for one of the "senior" members to instruct you on how to fly your glider.
8. Get in line for a tow and wait.
9. Watch others push in front of you and scratch your head.
10. Get out of you glider and put your name on the tow list.
11. Wait some more.
12. Be towed downwind while contour flying the terrain at 45 knots. Notice gliders
landing as you are being sent off.
...... skipping all the inflight fun
13. Land as they send off the towplane with another glider..
14. Discuss your landing with the 'landing' committee. Notice that the 'committee'
members closely resemble Bevis and Butthead, and that you already have MTV.
15. Realize that telling you to go away may have been a favor.
Naw, this would never happen. :-)
Joe C. Parrish
> Considering what one goes through to become "accepted" in the soaring
> community, MTV provides an interesting alternative. Is it possible that a
> scenerio such as that below is being played out the world over?
>
[unpleasant (but realistic) scenario deleted for brevity]
>
> Naw, this would never happen. :-)
Jeez, could this really happen? We glider pilots were recently characterized in another rec.aviation.* forum as being cliquish (and several other unsavory things). I was quick to respond against this characterization, but perhaps there was some truth in it after all. I must say that I have seen some people playing the same "equipment makes the pilot" games that I used to see in bicycle racing, and it's not pretty.
The way I see it, from the time you start to assemble your bird, soaring is a communal activity. You usually need help there, you need someone to tow you, and you need crew to retrieve you when you land out. If you don't like people, I guess you can buy a self-launching ship.
I think it's safe to say that in my club you will be warmly greeted within the first couple of minutes of showing your face in the vicinity of the gliders. We are not doing quite so well in retaining prospects after the initial greeting--sometimes due to dumb errors like making them wait until all of the club members have launched.
I get the impression that there are three types of people who come out for an intro flight. Some have made up their minds to pursue soaring before they ever show up, and nothing other than a grossly unsafe display will cause them to walk away. Others are looking for another thrill (like bungee jumping, skydiving, whitewater rafting, etc.) to add to their "Been There, Done That, Got the T-Shirt" list. (They won't be back under any circumstances.) The third type are those who are interested, but not committed, and are waiting to see how they are treated at the gliderport. We must do a better job at making these people feel welcome!
Face it, folks, soaring (at least in the USA) is nowhere near a mainstream sport. I live in a metropolitan area and still must drive over 100 miles to the gliderport. There is plenty of room for expansion of the sport, and I won't bore you further by listing all the benefits of having a greater participation level per capita.
--Joe [recently elected as VP of Membership in my club. I ran unopposed. :-) ]
--
Joe C. Parrish
Space Systems Laboratory, University of Maryland
College Park, MD
Mike Cohler
>
> In article <1995Jan16.1...@leeds.ac.uk> md...@unix.york.ac.uk (Mike Cohler) writes:
>
> >mgi...@puknet.puk.ac.za (Jonker, AS) wrote:
> >>
gently. This way it is only possible to get an indication on the asi and
> almost impossible to damage it.
At our club the advice we have (almost as club rule status !) is to
put the palm of your hand over the pitot opening, and gently move your
hand toward and away from the pitot. This gives about a 10 knots
variation on the asi reading, and I have never known it to damage
our asi's. Of course on old gliders with pitot statics on a long
stalk, this doesnt work and your method of blowing (at a distance)
must be used instead.
Brian D. Voce
>I get the impression that there are three types of people who come out for
>an intro flight. Some have made up their minds to pursue soaring before
>they ever show up, and nothing other than a grossly unsafe display will
>cause them to walk away. Others are looking for another thrill (like
>bungee jumping, skydiving, whitewater rafting, etc.) to add to their
>"Been There, Done That, Got the T-Shirt" list. (They won't be back under any
>circumstances.) The third type are those who are interested, but not
>committed, and are waiting to see how they are treated at the gliderport.
>We must do a better job at making these people feel welcome!
One of the clubs here in Western Australia has introduced a booking system
using a mobile phone and faxes. Visitors phone the mobile number and are
given a time slot for their flight. The booking sheets for the weekend
are faxed to the club on Friday night. Each flying day, one of the two
seaters is dedicated to the visitors. Drop-ins are politely told that
they should have booked and are fitted in as best they can.
Benefits
- Excellent customer service which results in word of mouth
publicity and more visitors.
- A professional image is presented to the public.
- When the guy who takes the bookings wants a rest, he passes the
mobile phone onto someone else and there is no disruption of service.
- Club literature always reflects the correct phone number
irrespective of committee changes.
- Rarely do they get an unexpected glut of visitors.
The unexpected benefit is that they can pick out the thrill seakers
from the potential glider pilots. The thrill seakers arrive on time and
leave immediately afterwards. The potential glider pilots arrive early
and stick around afterwards. They are the ones to go and talk to.
How successful?
Membership increase of over 10% per annum for the last two years (since
the phone was purchased). Plus by increasing income from visitors they
have: built a new hangar, purchased two new Blanik L23's, (sold a Grob
Twin Astir), built and equipped a new maintanance shed *AND* they will
be out of debt by Easter.
I wish all the clubs in Western Australia would view customer service as
a high priority! :-(
Brian D Voce
(President - West Australian Gliding Association)
Jerry Niman
>
>Of course on old gliders with pitot statics on a long
>stalk, this doesnt work and your method of blowing (at a distance)
>must be used instead.
I haven't been following this thread, so forgive me if this has
been posted before, but another way of testing an ASI with the
long stalk pitot / static is to block the pitot hole with your
thumb, then carefully rub the stalk to warm it (and the air within).
This should show a goodly few knots.
Doug Haluza
>I once took up a club 1-26 in 5 degree F weather. After takeoff, I found
ALL
>the insturments (ASI, ALT, VARIO) were inop... the moisture in the system
had
>frozen solid. The flight was uneventful, and fun. Although I had no
trouble
>judging airspeed in the pattern, it was very difficult to judge the
altitude
>when I reached 3000 ft for release. I pulled when I thought I was about
there
>which, according to a later converstion with the tow pilot, turned out to
be
>4300 ft.
the aircraft is not airworthy. So you are expected to land as soon as
possible. You might argue that towing up to altitude to sort out the
problem was your decision as PIC in light of the emergency, but you can't
legally continue the flight beyond that.