Is anyone towing gliders with an LSA in the USA?

[david.s....@gmail.com]

If you are towing full-sized gliders (meaning other than hang gliders or light sport) with an LSA in the United States or know of someone who is, please reply. Otherwise, may I politely and respectfully ask for silence?

I have been in recent conversations about how FAA regulations (or their implementation) may or may not make it impossible to legally tow a full-sized glider with a light sport aircraft. I am looking for evidence to the contrary in the form of someone who has solved this problem and is towing with an LSA.

If the reality is that this has never been accomplished, there's no need to discuss the regulations, except to seek regulatory changes.

Many thanks,
...david

[Eric Greenwell]

Have you been conversing with the FAA or just interested pilots?

By "Towing with an LSA", do you mean only one that is actually in the category, or do you
include aircraft that were in the LSA category, and but were moved to Experimental, or
ones that could be in the LSA category, but never were?

My understanding is my Phoenix (LSA glider) can legally tow gliders, but I can not charge
for the tow. I have not tried towing with it, however.

I think discussion about the utility of using LSA aircraft, or similar aircraft, for
towing would be worthwhile, even if it turns out it is not currently legal. In that case,
discussion that determines they can adequately tow gliders would motivate efforts to
change the regulations.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

I like this question, I am anxiously awaiting a reply. I know on NO clubs or commercial operators towing with a LSA or motorglider. The motorglider guys love this towing with a motorglider concept, they have no idea of the towing. OBTP

[R]

My understanding is Experimental Aircraft are not authorized to tow anything, at anytime in the United States.
I believe the Phoenix is experimental.

R

[Dan Marotta]

Well... I'm a motorglider guy and I don't love this idea.

I hope the motorglider guys who tow full scale gliders charge enough to
pay for gas and oil AND engine overhaul.

Dan
5J

[Tony]

It's a part of the standard boilerplate of FAA restrictions when an experimental certificate is issued, but it doesn't have to be. If you look at the FAA 8900 you may find a path to a certificate without that restriction. I know that it was done by Bill Willis decades ago but unaware of any other examples.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

The Phoenix is a LSA category airplane, towing with experimental is allowed only with approval from the FSDO. The question that I have is the LSA approved to tow without the FSDO specific aircraft approval ? R, you and I both tow, we understand the need for horses and performance. Clubs and commercial operators would be hard pressed to make the LSA Motorglider a viable replacement for the Pawnee, or the 182, both which are good workhorses and tow planes. Having been in situations where Pawnee horsepower saved my life and I am sure you have had situations down south that made you feel much safer with that extra hp. How would you like to be towing with a LSA motorglider and some glider pilot makes that deadly mistake of kiting down low, wouldn't take much to ruin your day, and it would happen very fast. See you next week. OBTP

[Eric Greenwell]

The PHoenix is an LSA category GLIDER, not an airplane. I don't know if that makes a
difference to the discussion.

Which is safer: Making 1300 tows a year in a Pawnee, or 100 tows a year in an LSA aircraft?

[Charles Longley]

My vote is for the Pawnee.

[R]

Correction…to my statement…I now believe..
The Phoenix this thread is referring to is LSA, not E-LSA, and would be legal to tow a glider.
BUT…..the FAA might take issue with any pilot doing so as a poor judgement call. The Pawnee has a proven performance track record. Any pilot or club choosing to operate a LSA as a tow plane better have answers in the event Little Susie is killed because ride pilot trusted the tow pilot knew what he was doing taking off without recognizing the wind had shifted….hitting the tree on the far end.
I believe both aircraft can serve a useful purpose. The LSA simply has more limitations that must be considered…..like a winch or 1987 LeSabre hauling ass pulling a 2000’ cable.
One plane tows, the other drags….I prefer Tenderloin, but a hot dog will work.
Vol Heureux!

H

[Scott Manley]

For what it is worth, one of the tow planes in the Condor glider flight simulation is an LSA, which suggests towing with an LSA may be legal in Europe. The aircraft is a WT9 Dynamic. https://lsa.aerospool.sk

[Scott Manley]

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 1:46:02 PM UTC-5, Scott Manley wrote:
> For what it is worth, one of the tow planes in the Condor glider flight simulation is an LSA, which suggests towing with an LSA may be legal in Europe. The aircraft is a WT9 Dynamic. https://lsa.aerospool.sk

The manufacturers website list specifications for the "Tow Version".

[Dan Marotta]

I don't think it's legal to operate commercially with a Light Sport
*Aircraft* I haven't heard of a Light Sport *Glider*. Likewise, I don't
know if a club's charging for tows is considered a "commercial"
operation. And, as we all know, commercial operations are not allowed
in Light Sport Aircraft.

Since an aircraft's ability to climb is a function of its *excess*
power, and given how light LSAs are, I'd think you'd use a major chunk
of your excess power to tow a glider. That would translate directly to
lower performance and higher wear and tear and at a far greater
proportion to the value of the aircraft than it would with a Pawnee.

If you're so altruistic that you want to give away the life of your
Phoenix then, by all means, go for it! But don't charge for the service.

Dan
5J

[Eric Greenwell]

You've heard of the Phoenix, so you have heard of a Light Sport Glider. It requires a
glider license to fly it. It's 30:1 with the prop feathered.

With myself and about 15 gallons of fuel (enough for 3:45 hours of cruising at about 110
knots), my Phoenix climbs at about 1300-1400 fpm (the manual states 1300 fpm at MTOW -
1320 lbs). The propeller is adjustable and currently set at a "cruise" angle. There is a
lot of "excess" power! Putting a 1000 lb sailplane behind it doubles the weight, reducing
the climb to about 600 fpm, still pretty good, and better than we got from our 150hp Citabria.

The Rotax 912 is a pretty robust aircraft engine, so I don't think you should dismiss it's
longevity offhand. It does use water cooling, and can descend more rapidly than the
typical air-cooled engines used towing. The Europeans like it a lot for a variety of
reasons, one of them being the tows are cheaper than a Pawnee style airplane.

[R]

Operating location would be a utilization factor, in turn determining a good fit for that club. Just having a wing runner who can complete a treadmill test equivalent for each glider launch would require the club to have a very robust Jr. member program (the other thread showing a Phoenix towing with two wing runners doing a 600 yd walk/skip/run). Acceleration was 😴 Zzzzzzz snorkel 💤. I would need oxygen.
And you can forget about tailwind launches …or hire Olympian Peter Bole…
But, I can see an LSA earning its pay…hard surface, open spaces, low density altitude average….JATO.
If it works, I’m in…

R

[Mike the Strike]

The Slovakian-built Eurofox is a popular glider towplane in Europe and its taildragger version has achieved a good reputation as a cost-effective and reliable tug. Equipped with a 100 HP Rotax, its performance is reputed to be quite acceptable when compared to more traditional aircraft tugs. Reports on aerotows with the Eurofox from colleagues at my gliding club here in the UK have been favorable.

It is sold in the USA as a light-sport, the only barrier to its glider towing is legislative. I am unaware of any attempt to certify it for this use, however.

Mike

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

I did once see a Phoenix in Florida with a tow release attached to the airplane, if I recall correctly it was near Titusville. As I looked at the airplane I could not figure out why someone would have a tow release on such platform. I finally came to the conclusion that it was used to attach a tow rope from a golf cart so that it could be pulled backwards to get it back in the hangar. OBTP

[Matthew Scutter]

On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 5:16:02 AM UTC+10:30, Scott Manley wrote:
> For what it is worth, one of the tow planes in the Condor glider flight simulation is an LSA, which suggests towing with an LSA may be legal in Europe. The aircraft is a WT9 Dynamic. https://lsa.aerospool.sk

The Dynamic is a wonderful towplane (and aircraft) and is used all over Europe with the 912 Rotax.
For higher density altitudes they also offer it with a 914 or even 915. The 914 is already comparable to a Pawnee in performance.

[R]

How much for a basic?

R

[Dan Marotta]

Yes, I'm familiar with the Phoenix. In fact, I almost bought one but
was put off by its performance limitations compared to the Stemme.

I have owned three Rotax 912 ULSs, one 914 F2/S1, and one 915 iS, so I
guess you could say that I'm familiar with the type. I'm also familiar
with their costs which rival those of TCM and Lycoming.

Quoting the Phoenix's performance is smoke and mirrors and dodges my
assertion that you are increasing the wear and tear on the engine and
airframe and, since you can't legally charge for the service, you're
giving away a portion of your aircraft's life. I've got no quarrel with
that, if you want to do it.

And saying that Europe does it so it must be OK makes me think of my
Dad's statement that, "Just because your friends jump off a bridge does
not mean that you should do it, too". We left Europe behind well over
200 years ago, for good reason, and we're still carrying a good deal of
their load.

Dan
5J

[Dan Marotta]

From the FAA

These aircraft may not be operated for compensation or hire except to
tow a light-sport glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in
accordance with 14 CFR § 91.309 or to conduct flight training.

So, take it up with the FAA if you want to tow with a light sport
aircraft in the US.

Dan
5J

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Well I guess that pretty much covers the LAS as a replacement for the Pawnee! OBTP

[Bill Tisdale]

On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:08:39 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:

Dan, did you get that from someone at the FAA? Name and office via pvt email please?
Please re-read 91.317, I did not see where it restricted the glider in tow to a Light Sport Glider. It just says "glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle".

I remember something like you said, from years ago, but I have been searching the web and my notes this week and cannot find a printed reference.

I do understand that the issue with the EuroFox used in Europe, sold under the name of AeroTrek in the US, does not have an FAA Approved tow mechanism.

Bill

[Dan Marotta]

PM sent.

Dan
5J

[2G]

An experimental aircraft can be used for towing gliders under these circumstances:
https://www.kitplanes.com/ask-the-dar-61/
You can't tow for hire or compensation, so a club could own an experimental towplane, but not charge for actual tows (costs are just built into club membership fees).

Tom

[Bill Tisdale]

Thanks Dan, I got it, my reply to you got the obvious bounce.
See you in Reno!
Bill

[Henning Pedersen]

In Denmark it is werry common to tow with at LSA. our nabo club use a Dynamic and i my club we tow with our Rotax falke with the Rotas 912 engine, In Nordic gliding there are several articles obout towing with LSA and TMG , Red this link to the articels. It is in both Danish and English
https://nordicgliding.com/erfaringer-dynamic-slaeb-i-sandefjord-seilflyklubb/

[Uri Savoray]

On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 17:58:27 UTC+2, david.s....@gmail.com wrote:
> If you are towing full-sized gliders (meaning other than hang gliders or light sport) with an LSA in the United States or know of someone who is, please reply. Otherwise, may I politely and respectfully ask for silence?
>
> I have been in recent conversations about how FAA regulations (or their implementation) may or may not make it impossible to legally tow a full-sized glider with a light sport aircraft. I am looking for evidence to the contrary in the form of someone who has solved this problem and is towing with an LSA.
>
> If the reality is that this has never been accomplished, there's no need to discuss the regulations, except to seek regulatory changes.
>
> Many thanks,
> ...david

With all the legalese issues mentioned in the thread, I think another issue is overlooked: the weak link is specified by the manufacturers as MAXimum 300 KG. This is incompatible by the FAA's MINimum requirements.

[Dan Marotta]

I think that, in the right location, towing with an LSA would be very
good. In the US, we can not do that and charge for the tow.

Also, in New Mexico, our field elevation is 6,200' (1,890 m) MSL and,
with a 100 hp engine a turbocharger would likely be needed. Also we
must consider winds. I have towed gliders using a Pawnee with 27 kts
cross wind and I would not like to do that in such a lightly loaded
aircraft as an LSA.

Dan
5J

[Eric Greenwell]

I would not be the queue waiting for a tow, even though I think it'd be a short one! Would
a 15 kt cross wind performance be satisfactory most of the time at Moriarty?

On 1/22/2023 10:40 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I think that, in the right location, towing with an LSA would be very good.  In the US, we
> can not do that and charge for the tow.
>
> Also, in New Mexico, our field elevation is 6,200' (1,890 m) MSL and, with a 100 hp engine
> a turbocharger would likely be needed.  Also we must consider winds.  I have towed gliders
> using a Pawnee with 27 kts cross wind and I would not like to do that in such a lightly
> loaded aircraft as an LSA.
>
> Dan
> 5J

...

[Dan Marotta]

15 kt X-wind capability is usually sufficient at 0E0. Our main runway
is 26 and our prevailing winds are generally from 200 - 310. We have a
cross wind runway, but accessing it is a long pull and staging for the
X-wind runway is inconvenient due to the geometry. Take a look on
google maps for an idea of operating off the north/south runway.

Dan
5J

[krasw]

On Friday, 20 January 2023 at 20:46:02 UTC+2, Scott Manley wrote:
> For what it is worth, one of the tow planes in the Condor glider flight simulation is an LSA, which suggests towing with an LSA may be legal in Europe. The aircraft is a WT9 Dynamic. https://lsa.aerospool.sk

There is no such thing as LSA in EU. In EU there are bunch of local UL regulations (every country has one, often reflecting german regulation), which generally allowed for 454 kg MTOW non-certified planes, and very recently, newer regulation which allows for 600 kg MTOW UL.

These 454 kg MTOW UL planes have been used for towing for years, with generally good experience. With these UL planes flight clubs have possibility to maintain plane themselves, have a bit lower running cost (debatable), do dual instruction, use same plane for other use etc.

ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.

[david.s....@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:24 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.

So it would appear that nobody tows gliders with LSA in the USA. If we believe that the high cost of operations is a significant contributor to the decline of gliding in the USA, then perhaps US pilots should be advocating for regulatory changes to allow LSA tow planes. Some regulations are already in place. Per § 91.327, the two things you can do for hire in an LSA (in the USA) are instruct and tow gliders. What is missing is an FAA approved tow release for LSA.

I asked the original question in this thread after reading a review of the 140 hp Eurofox 915iS flight tested as a tow plane. The article appears in the current edition of the BGA magazine Sailplane & Gliding. The last line of the review is "...in conclusion I have to say (somewhat sadly, as I have more time in Pawnees than any other type) that all legacy tugs are now obsolete.”

The claims include much lower fuel consumption, faster return from tow (liquid cooled heads prevent shock cooling), and quieter operation (four blade prop). The folding wings could be useful for some.

Elsewhere I found that the Eurofox and the Kitfox are both derived from the Avid Flyer, but independently. The Eurofox is sold in the USA as Aerotrek. In Britain and Europe you can buy the Eurofox already equipped for towing, but that is not an option for the Aerotrek in the USA.

Cheers,
...david

[Uri Savoray]

Our club in Israel just received our 915iS Eurofox, and we are waiting for the paperwork (CofA) to test it. We have been using two EuroFoxes (one with 912iS and one with 912ULS engine) until now. Performance is adequate, though marginal with the big ships on hot days. Our biggest doubt re the 915iS is its performance in hot days: if this is relevant to you, we will surely have 40+ degrees C days in a few months, and will report the results.
If considering the regulations, do look at the weak-link requirements! The max on the Eurofox is not compatible with the min in the FAR! (for all but the lightest gliders)

Along the way, I think we got the FAA to approve the type (915iS) in the US (helped with the local CAA).
Soft landings,
Uri

[Dan Marotta]

Well... I took a look at the Phoenix website and found this:

Equipped with the Rotax 912ULS, the Phoenix makes a great towplane, and
is an option from the factory.

I found no mention of a tow release, however.

And, since the Rotax 915 iS is mentioned below, please note that the 912
ULS in the Phoenix delivers 100 hp at sea level whereas the 915 iS is
rated at 141 hp at sea level. If I was going to try towing with such a
light aircraft as a Phoenix or Eurofox, I'd want the 915 iS engine which
is not currently offered on the Phoenix website.

Dan
5J

[Eric Greenwell]

My Phoenix has the Tost towhook installed (2014), but I don't know what is supplied since the new owner acquired the company.

[Dan Marotta]

Interesting. Have you towed with it? Are there any procedures in the
POH? What about the FEDs?

Dan
5J

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Eric, the reason for the tow hook on your Phoenix is so that you can pull it backwards into the hangar with a golf cart. Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

You must be thinking of a Pawnee! At 760 lbs, the Phoenix is so easy to move around, it only takes one person: stand behind it, grab the leading edge of the elevator near the fin, and walk backwards, steering with the other hand holding the rudder. The tail wheel is connected to the rudder with a push rod, so it goes backwards very easily.

[Eric Greenwell]

No, I haven't tried towing with it, nor are there any procedures in my 2014 POH. Won't talk to the FEDs until I decide I'm want to do it.