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Flying fast in AAT tasks?
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Davis Chappins
Nov 11, 2022, 7:57:13āÆPM11/11/22
to
All,
I am looking for some advice/help. I fly a lot of condor racing tasks and all of the books and literature devolve into the following 4 rules:
climb better, glide better, fly straighter, don't put yourself in jail.
If you analyze several IGC files it is clear the winner did one or more of these things better than their competitors, so it is very clear what to improve on or what to maximize depending on the terrain or weather of the task area.
I win or top 3 most of the condor flights and I have a great understanding of how to follow these 4 rules in regular racing tasks.
When it comes to AAT I am demonstrably middle of the pack. https://www.condor.club/comp/besttimes/0/?id=22068 not just in this one but others I've flown.
Looking at analysis and improvement I am a bit lost - when comparing igc files, what am I looking for? Avg speed determines the winner but how do I maximize it? What tools do you use to analyze AAT igc files to determine where you gained/lost (easy with regular racing tasks)? What tricks have you learned?
I am looking for some advice/help. I fly a lot of condor racing tasks and all of the books and literature devolve into the following 4 rules:
climb better, glide better, fly straighter, don't put yourself in jail.
If you analyze several IGC files it is clear the winner did one or more of these things better than their competitors, so it is very clear what to improve on or what to maximize depending on the terrain or weather of the task area.
I win or top 3 most of the condor flights and I have a great understanding of how to follow these 4 rules in regular racing tasks.
When it comes to AAT I am demonstrably middle of the pack. https://www.condor.club/comp/besttimes/0/?id=22068 not just in this one but others I've flown.
Looking at analysis and improvement I am a bit lost - when comparing igc files, what am I looking for? Avg speed determines the winner but how do I maximize it? What tools do you use to analyze AAT igc files to determine where you gained/lost (easy with regular racing tasks)? What tricks have you learned?
R
Nov 11, 2022, 11:03:01āÆPM11/11/22
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You want to race AAT better on Condor?
R
R
John Foster
Nov 12, 2022, 1:54:48āÆAM11/12/22
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On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 9:03:01 PM UTC-7, R wrote:
> You want to race AAT better on Condor?
>
> R
I think what Davis is getting at, is that there are possibly different tactics/strategies to flying AATs than fixed small traditional turn point tasks. I'd be curious to learn here too. While there are differences between Condor and real life, there are many similarities as well, including these tactics/strategies. Practicing in Condor can make you a better and faster pilot in real life.
> You want to race AAT better on Condor?
>
> R
R
Nov 12, 2022, 6:29:43āÆAM11/12/22
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So we donāt hijack Davis thread, why donāt we let Condor racers post their thoughts for Davis. If you want all the secrets JohnG ā¦. I advise you to start your own thread.
Could be interesting.
R
youngbl...@gmail.com
Nov 12, 2022, 7:21:49āÆAM11/12/22
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R
Nov 12, 2022, 9:57:41āÆAM11/12/22
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No Bobā¦.OLC is good. Seeking information is good.
Actual racing is best. No other way to advance.
Davis and JohnG, post when you race. Iāll be able to look at your log, and offer ideas.
Racing is easy, racing well is hard.
R
Actual racing is best. No other way to advance.
Davis and JohnG, post when you race. Iāll be able to look at your log, and offer ideas.
Racing is easy, racing well is hard.
R
Michael Westbrook
Nov 12, 2022, 10:02:01āÆAM11/12/22
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Dang, Old Bob you're still on here discouraging people? Someone looking to improve and ask questions in the off season. Not all of us are old sky geezers like you that were born with all the knowledge and yet choose not to share it with the community. I haven't met Davis but he's the one putting in countless hours to help implement OGN across the US so we can all benefit from seeing gliders while on the ground, whether thats just around the local club, cross-countries or contests.
Michael Westbrook
Nov 12, 2022, 10:14:17āÆAM11/12/22
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Davis,
AATs are used a lot on tricky days when an assigned task may not be possible. Since they are timed, the goal is to maximize your distance during that time. Generally you want to be as close as possible to being on or slightly over time. If you are under time you lose some speed since it is divided by the minimum time. If you are more than 1-2 minutes over time you can start losing speed because of the benefit of the percentage of final glide over the time period. There are of course some things that can affect that like a really slow start and maybe the end of the day got significantly better and you can gain some speed by going longer.
We of course try to optimize the speed based on flying in better areas. Maybe a portion of the flight is on a ridge and so you try to extend that if possible. If there is a risk of being under time and maxing out the cylinders, you usually try to go deep in the first turn area as long as it isn't completely shut off or risky. A lot of times pilots will turn early because the next area look better and then end up running out of room in the later turns.
There is of course the maximization of the turn point which depends on where you're coming from and where you're going. This is a guess by the pilot looking at the angle and some flight computers can offer guidance to maximize this based on your achieved speed. Some general lessons from my experience and given by G Dale, Garret Willat and others. Never go to the last cloud if possible. If you can turn early and have room if you get to the end of a cloud field its better because a lot of times you get to that last cloud thinking you'll find something. It's always dead and you turn around and all the clouds behind you have now dried up. You'll usually end up faster on final glide, so do add a few minutes to your expected time because you will usually gain.
Lots of other things I'm sure others can add. There is a bit of science and a bit of guess work involved like anything in soaring. The mroe your do it the better you'll get.
Cheers,
Mike
AATs are used a lot on tricky days when an assigned task may not be possible. Since they are timed, the goal is to maximize your distance during that time. Generally you want to be as close as possible to being on or slightly over time. If you are under time you lose some speed since it is divided by the minimum time. If you are more than 1-2 minutes over time you can start losing speed because of the benefit of the percentage of final glide over the time period. There are of course some things that can affect that like a really slow start and maybe the end of the day got significantly better and you can gain some speed by going longer.
We of course try to optimize the speed based on flying in better areas. Maybe a portion of the flight is on a ridge and so you try to extend that if possible. If there is a risk of being under time and maxing out the cylinders, you usually try to go deep in the first turn area as long as it isn't completely shut off or risky. A lot of times pilots will turn early because the next area look better and then end up running out of room in the later turns.
There is of course the maximization of the turn point which depends on where you're coming from and where you're going. This is a guess by the pilot looking at the angle and some flight computers can offer guidance to maximize this based on your achieved speed. Some general lessons from my experience and given by G Dale, Garret Willat and others. Never go to the last cloud if possible. If you can turn early and have room if you get to the end of a cloud field its better because a lot of times you get to that last cloud thinking you'll find something. It's always dead and you turn around and all the clouds behind you have now dried up. You'll usually end up faster on final glide, so do add a few minutes to your expected time because you will usually gain.
Lots of other things I'm sure others can add. There is a bit of science and a bit of guess work involved like anything in soaring. The mroe your do it the better you'll get.
Cheers,
Mike
Frank Whiteley
Nov 12, 2022, 12:25:38āÆPM11/12/22
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Hank Nixon
Nov 12, 2022, 1:21:23āÆPM11/12/22
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Using a simulator can be useful also, particularly at ridge or mountain sites. Fly the Alps for 50 hours on the sim before buying a tow.
What neither can provide is the view outside that is used to decide on the many small direction changes, and the big ones, that come from evaluating the sky in real time and feeling the glider respond to those changes. Much of what separates the fast from the slow are these small signals that come from feel before the vario even responds. If you cant see what the pilot saw you can't understand many of the decisions.
One potentially useful tool is video such as provided on YouTube. Pure Flight, Stephan Langer, and Chess in the Air all have many flights shown where one can see the sky and decide where we would go and compare with what these guys do.
When all is said and done there is no substitute for seat time looking out the window and feeling the glider to learn to go fast.
FWIW
UH
R
Nov 12, 2022, 2:24:17āÆPM11/12/22
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Come on UH, give them some of your secrets. š
What you write reads like work.
They think youāre holding out on them.
R
What you write reads like work.
They think youāre holding out on them.
R
Hank Nixon
Nov 12, 2022, 3:33:20āÆPM11/12/22
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UH
youngbl...@gmail.com
Nov 12, 2022, 4:02:43āÆPM11/12/22
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On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 10:02:01 AM UTC-5, michaelw...@live.com wrote:
> Dang, Old Bob you're still on here discouraging people? Someone looking to improve and ask questions in the off season. Not all of us are old sky geezers like you that were born with all the knowledge and yet choose not to share it with the community. I haven't met Davis but he's the one putting in countless hours to help implement OGN across the US so we can all benefit from seeing gliders while on the ground, whether thats just around the local club, cross-countries or contests.
No Michael! I am encouraging Davis to do better in his glider and quit playing video games. Davis told me that there was something that is just didn't understand about OGN in one his pompous replies here on RAS, I was just returning the favor. Old Bob, The Purist
> Dang, Old Bob you're still on here discouraging people? Someone looking to improve and ask questions in the off season. Not all of us are old sky geezers like you that were born with all the knowledge and yet choose not to share it with the community. I haven't met Davis but he's the one putting in countless hours to help implement OGN across the US so we can all benefit from seeing gliders while on the ground, whether thats just around the local club, cross-countries or contests.
R
Nov 12, 2022, 5:05:14āÆPM11/12/22
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R
Eric Greenwell
Nov 12, 2022, 5:30:53āÆPM11/12/22
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last contest, the tasking is very different, and I feel like I'll almost be starting over.
I'm thinking Condor flying might be good way to learn the new rules and particularly the
tasks. Now I just have to find a Condor systme! The EAA group at the airport has a
simulator set up, so I'll start there. It's not running Condor, but has the nifty
controls, screens, and strong computer.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
R
Nov 12, 2022, 6:28:58āÆPM11/12/22
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Excellent!
Welcome back.
The new established order of the day is to race what makes YOU happy. Many pros and Hall of Famers have taken to
the Sports Class for many reasonsā¦.no water, shorter task, simpler task, low pressure/high fun. Ease into it. Now the Nationals Sports Class has become a knife fight, but in a fun way.
Pick your game, elevate the fun. The great thing about the majority get older, no one remembers past last week.
Also, not much has change with Regional Contest.
Make it what you want it to be.
Good luck!
R
Welcome back.
The new established order of the day is to race what makes YOU happy. Many pros and Hall of Famers have taken to
the Sports Class for many reasonsā¦.no water, shorter task, simpler task, low pressure/high fun. Ease into it. Now the Nationals Sports Class has become a knife fight, but in a fun way.
Pick your game, elevate the fun. The great thing about the majority get older, no one remembers past last week.
Also, not much has change with Regional Contest.
Make it what you want it to be.
Good luck!
R
George Haeh
Nov 12, 2022, 8:44:08āÆPM11/12/22
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I'm slowly improving from arriving an hour early to half an hour early. I might have done better in the last contest if a wheel hadn't fallen off the trailer and drowned itself in the local river after rotating the tires, costing me five contest days. Now have a torque wrench.
Hank Nixon
Nov 13, 2022, 8:42:33āÆAM11/13/22
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My son came back form 10 years off and did just fine.
UH
Eric Greenwell
Nov 13, 2022, 11:43:10āÆAM11/13/22
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competitive in 18M class.
Eric Greenwell
Nov 13, 2022, 11:47:31āÆAM11/13/22
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refresher training, a d as I'd like to determine it's value in transitioning towed pilots
to motorgliders, and as a refresher for experienced motorglider pilots.
Steve Leonard
Nov 13, 2022, 12:31:14āÆPM11/13/22
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But, as R said, fly for fun and you will have it!
Steve Leonard
Flying the ex-Moffat/Gimmey Nimbus 3
Eric Greenwell
Nov 13, 2022, 12:44:56āÆPM11/13/22
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I will note I flew my first Nationals in 1976 in a Ka6e, still using only assigned tasks,
turnpoint cameras, speed limited starts, and picking our takeoff time. George Moffat beat
me everyday, which matched my expectations, so it was great fun.
waremark
Nov 15, 2022, 5:32:29āÆPM11/15/22
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Strange that of all those replies there is only one which discusses ways to get better results from an AAT. Some specifics were mentioned in that:
Go far enough in earlier sectors not to risk running out of distance before the minimum time
Always fly in a direction which maximises the task distance for the distance flown
Try to come in just over the minimum time, while not risking coming in early
Another specific suggestion - always try to turn from the top of a climb, that is equivalent to running into a downwind turnpoint high and an upwind turnpoint low.
But the biggest difference between a racing task and an AAT is that success in AAT's is all about planning. You have to fly in a better area at better times than the other guy. This is about predicting what conditions will be like where at different times during the contest day and planning your flight accordingly while keeping some options open.
Modern flight computers all offer ways to help fly AAT's - generally making it easy to move planned turn locations around within Assigned Areas and to see predicted arrival times (shown as delta times, times over or under the minimum) and guidance of the direction to fly with Assigned Areas to maximise task distance. I bet the guys doing well on Condor AAT's are using flight computers.
You should always be faster on an AAT because you choose where to go.
Hope this helps.
Go far enough in earlier sectors not to risk running out of distance before the minimum time
Always fly in a direction which maximises the task distance for the distance flown
Try to come in just over the minimum time, while not risking coming in early
Another specific suggestion - always try to turn from the top of a climb, that is equivalent to running into a downwind turnpoint high and an upwind turnpoint low.
But the biggest difference between a racing task and an AAT is that success in AAT's is all about planning. You have to fly in a better area at better times than the other guy. This is about predicting what conditions will be like where at different times during the contest day and planning your flight accordingly while keeping some options open.
Modern flight computers all offer ways to help fly AAT's - generally making it easy to move planned turn locations around within Assigned Areas and to see predicted arrival times (shown as delta times, times over or under the minimum) and guidance of the direction to fly with Assigned Areas to maximise task distance. I bet the guys doing well on Condor AAT's are using flight computers.
You should always be faster on an AAT because you choose where to go.
Hope this helps.
R
Nov 16, 2022, 2:44:46āÆAM11/16/22
to
If, for unknown reason, Condor is Davis limits, someone with Condor experience would help the most. The thread drifted for lack of a clear way forward.
I hope Davis responds to your ideas and they help him improve in the standings.
Cheers.
R
Charles Longley
Nov 16, 2022, 9:20:44āÆAM11/16/22
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On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 5:30:53 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Charlie
Charles Longley
Nov 16, 2022, 9:29:09āÆAM11/16/22
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On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 7:57:13 PM UTC-5, davis.c...@gmail.com wrote:
My bit of competition advice is to fly faster then you think you need to. Assuming strong conditions of course. Donāt worry about being in gliding distance of an airport. Just make sure you have a reasonable field for an out. Your friends will come get you.
Charlie
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
Nov 16, 2022, 11:10:42āÆAM11/16/22
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On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 7:57:13 PM UTC-5, davis.c...@gmail.com wrote:
> All,
> I am looking for some advice/help. I fly a lot of condor racing tasks and all of the books and literature devolve into the following 4 rules:
> climb better, glide better, fly straighter, don't put yourself in jail.
>
> If you analyze several IGC files it is clear the winner did one or more of these things better than their competitors, so it is very clear what to improve on or what to maximize depending on the terrain or weather of the task area.
>
> I win or top 3 most of the condor flights and I have a great understanding of how to follow these 4 rules in regular racing tasks.
>
> When it comes to AAT I am demonstrably middle of the pack. https://www.condor.club/comp/besttimes/0/?id=22068 not just in this one but others I've flown.
>
> Looking at analysis and improvement I am a bit lost - when comparing igc files, what am I looking for? Avg speed determines the winner but how do I maximize it? What tools do you use to analyze AAT igc files to determine where you gained/lost (easy with regular racing tasks)? What tricks have you learned?
Hi, "UH" referenced me a bit ago. I have been doing this quite a while, but never won a contest, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
> All,
> I am looking for some advice/help. I fly a lot of condor racing tasks and all of the books and literature devolve into the following 4 rules:
> climb better, glide better, fly straighter, don't put yourself in jail.
>
> If you analyze several IGC files it is clear the winner did one or more of these things better than their competitors, so it is very clear what to improve on or what to maximize depending on the terrain or weather of the task area.
>
> I win or top 3 most of the condor flights and I have a great understanding of how to follow these 4 rules in regular racing tasks.
>
> When it comes to AAT I am demonstrably middle of the pack. https://www.condor.club/comp/besttimes/0/?id=22068 not just in this one but others I've flown.
>
> Looking at analysis and improvement I am a bit lost - when comparing igc files, what am I looking for? Avg speed determines the winner but how do I maximize it? What tools do you use to analyze AAT igc files to determine where you gained/lost (easy with regular racing tasks)? What tricks have you learned?
I want to get T-shirts made up,
"XC speed:
The glide givith
The thermaling taketh away".
You can't fly fast enough to make up for screwing around in poor thermals on course. A poor thermal to continue is better than landing out, witness a day this year at Newcastle where I had a total time flying of just over 5hrs, but I got around and had speed points.
Fast to the ground is worse (scoring wise) than slow but a full course. Try to limit the slow days. If you land out, do it on a devalued day!
Having a good mental picture of the task area and the current weather is paramount. Look out the frikkin canopy!
I fly a fun task locally (http://gcup.tophatsoaring.org/GCUP/gc_home.php) with people you have seen on contest score sheets.
Most of us post on Skylines.aero under Wurtsboro SC to see flights. All you need is a browser, no software but you get some stats, flight trace and a profile view of height, height above ground, speed, lift/sink during the flight.
You may be able to import the log into another program.
Currently, on north course which I fly, max speed is about 77MPH in the 2:45 minimum time. The drought here in August was pushing the limits on task area (about 210 miles) versus time allotted.
Real seat time is best, simulator time is better than nothing.
Try to figure out where you go deep in an area vs. just touching. I started contests with paper maps, cameras, etc. the first Cambridge computer was really cool.....it had a "Go" button when rounding the last Turnooint.
Have fun, go fly, keep learning.
jfitch
Nov 16, 2022, 11:16:14āÆAM11/16/22
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Eric Greenwell
Nov 16, 2022, 12:09:30āÆPM11/16/22
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Eric Greenwell
Nov 16, 2022, 12:23:11āÆPM11/16/22
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jfitch
Nov 16, 2022, 8:34:16āÆPM11/16/22
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Andy Blackburn
Jun 8, 2023, 7:18:43āÆPM6/8/23
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I'll note that Davis flew his first real-world contest at Region 9 in a field of 22 pilots including some pretty darn good racing pedigrees. He made the podium with 95% of the winner's points. (We can now all speculate from our armchairs as to whether Condor helped or not).
Not too shabby. Congratulations Davis!
I watched some of the action on WeGlide which offered some pretty good excitement since 100% of the pilots were registered. Congrats to the Region 9 team for putting on an excellent show! The day replay feature with all the thermals marked (even if it wasn't YOUR thermal) was pretty compelling - and occasionally humbling.
Andy Blackburn
9B
Not too shabby. Congratulations Davis!
I watched some of the action on WeGlide which offered some pretty good excitement since 100% of the pilots were registered. Congrats to the Region 9 team for putting on an excellent show! The day replay feature with all the thermals marked (even if it wasn't YOUR thermal) was pretty compelling - and occasionally humbling.
Andy Blackburn
9B
Message has been deleted
stephen.s...@gmail.com
Jun 8, 2023, 8:00:37āÆPM6/8/23
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