C-150/180 tow plane?
macquistan
Does anyone have experience using as a tow plane a C-150 with a 180hp
conversion? There is one on the market for a very good price. It has a
tow hook and a STOL kit already installed. Obviously, a Pawnee would
be the best choice. But, for 15-20K less, two seats and trike gear, it
seems a like a great opportunity. Currently, the local commercial
operator is using an old C-182. However, his plane isn't all that well
maintained. The plane would mainly be used for towing single place
ships without ballast, like my B4. The heaviest thing it would have to
tow is a L-13 or L-23.
Thanks much.
Dave Nadler
As these will greatly influence suitability of the C150, can you tell
us your:
- typical density altitude
- field length
- field surface
vontresc
Burt Compton has a 180 horse 150 out in Marfa. I've towed behind it in
an L-23, and it was decent. For light single place ships at low to mid
density altitudes a 180hp/150 would be more than adequate.
Peter
rlovinggood
limited the maximum tow weight to something around 950 lbs. That
would be fine for dry single seaters, but wouldn't work for two-
seaters.
So, we ended up with a 180 h.p. Cezzna 172 (Penn-Yann conversion long
before we bought it.)
Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
Tom Nau
My club uses a C-150 with a 180 hp conversion. It tows very well at
1500 ft field elevation all summer long when temperatures reach 100 or
more. It has a climb prop. It has towed my single-seater with full
ballast at 1150 lbs. as well as the G103C with two on board and an
open class ship with full ballast. I typically see 500fpm dry and
400fpm on tow with ballast. It is easier to find qualified tow pilots
for a trike than a tail-dragger.
brianDG303
I don't know the details, but whenever I hear this discussed the
problem seems to be something to do with the nose wheel being attached
to the firewall and the possibility that a grass strip, if somewhat
rough or if it has dips, will tend to bang the nose wheel to the point
that the firewall has to be replaced. Other knowledgeable people will
dispute this.
Brian
Brad
> for a trike than a tail-dragger.
The old guard in our club seem to have a deaf ear regarding this
important point. Many of us in our club are SEL rated pilots and would
love to tow, but getting a tail wheel endorsment, and the required TW
time for insurance purposes will keep us from ever being PIC in the
clubs TW towplanes.
I suspect it has more to do with providing the club towplanes to the
regional contest, where they regularly tow heavy ballasted ships.
Seems the Pawnees do a good job in that regard, kinda hard to beat a
Pawnee, until you can't find anyone to drive them.
Brad
BT
$130/hr) and Scout (pay for gas)
We have a TW Instructor... you need to get your own High Performance
endorsement.. but we could work that somewhere if needed.
Our insurance requires recent tail wheel experience, at least 10hrs TW,
Private Airplane with 200hrs total time.
And be a named pilot on the policy. We provide 10 landings in the Pawnee
before towing, and required towing endorsements.
We have a 250HP Pawnee, fixed pitch
BT
"Brad" <apis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7991510e-2484-4ec7...@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
150flivver
> My club uses a C-150 with a 180 hp conversion. It tows very well at
> 1500 ft field elevation all summer long when temperatures reach 100 or
> more. It has a climb prop. It has towed my single-seater with full
> ballast at 1150 lbs. as well as the G103C with two on board and an
> open class ship with full ballast. I typically see 500fpm dry and
> 400fpm on tow with ballast. It is easier to find qualified tow pilots
> for a trike than a tail-dragger.
Just to add to what Tom has said, our A150L/180hp also has a STOL kit
and we changed out the Cessna tow hitch that was limited to 1200lbs
max tow weight to a TOST setup that is good to 1800lbs. We use a
180hp 172 as a backup towplane but it is a real dog compared to the
150 with an O-360.
Bernie
A fellow has been towing gliders of all sorts out of Telluride, CO for
years with a 180 horse C-150. The elevation is over 9000 Ft. I've
been towed behind him in an L-13 Blanik with two folks aboard.
Free Flight 107
At Parowan, UT they use a 150 with similar HP, not sure how much, and
a climb prop,and STOL kit, does just fine on every thing thrown at it.
at 6,200 and 100F regulary.
Darryl Ramm
Mmm depends on what "just fine" means. The Parawan Aero 150 is a
150hp. They also bring in the Telluride 150/180hp for towing. I think
they changed the prop on the 150/150 to improve things from when I
last towed behind it. Towing with water or a Duo or DG-1000S with two
people on board on a hot day out of Parowan being the 150/150 (at
least with the old prop) was not my idea of fun. I hear it is a bit
better with the new prop but still not something you want to do. For
our visits there we would manage to sometimes bring in a 285 hp Pawnee
or Cessna 182. After all many days there you want to ballast up all
the way... And it often is the 150/150 does service towing the lighter
ships on busy days. And Parowan Aero is a fantastic FBO and provides
great support to the glider community, but there is only so much you
can do with 150hp at high density altitudes.
Darryl
noel.wade
Our insurance requires 100 - 200 hours of tailwheel time; Total Time
isn't considered a factor, AFAIK. :-P
And renting a club towplane - even at a cheap rate - adds up to a LOT
of money, when you have to rent for 100+ hours!
I'd really love to hear from operations using grass strips... Any of
you out there using a tri-gear towplane?
We've really been preached to about the wear and tear on the nosewheel
of a tri-gear towplane, when taking off from grass. Our strip is
grass with about a 1500' long takeoff area (no obstructions beyond
this area for a mile, so we just have to be off the ground in under
1500'). Its very compact dirt with short grass, but the surface has
some dips and humps (no potholes, but its not pancake-flat). NOTE: We
have a paved runway that can be used for towplane landings; so wear
and tear on the nosewheel from landing isn't an issue.
Thanks!
--Noel
(yes I'm still alive; I've just been away from Soaring for a few
months with a back injury)
Mike Schumann
Mike Schumann
"Darryl Ramm" <darry...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4ae7f74-e8bc-4368...@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
BT
and 25hrs in Type (Pawnee).
With less than 100hrs tail wheel and zero Pawnee time, then the pilots must
be named on the policy.
To be named on the policy requirements are as previously stated. All we need
to do is get 10hrs dual for a TW endorsement and get them named on the
policy.
BT
"noel.wade" <noel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e1a68fb5-ed56-4ed2...@w37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
BT
norm, plus we have an STC to bump our 235 to 25HP. Is there a similar STC
for the 260 to 285 conversion?
BT
"Darryl Ramm" <darry...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4ae7f74-e8bc-4368...@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
SoaringXCellence
>
> - Show quoted text -
The Willamette Valley club had a C182 for a couple years in the late
90's. I was the ship captain for a while and flew it often for
towing. It was fine as far as the saliplane pilots were concerned.
We had stripped out all the interior except the two front seats and
that kept it fairly light. It climbes well and hauled any of our
ships including a Lark IS28B. The club sold it after about two or
three years due to difficulties using it on a grass field with
"normally" trained power pilots.
The problem was two-fold:
To protect the nose-gear on the grass field, the pilot MUST do a good
soft-field landing. Too many times the pilot was unwilling to use a
technique that spared the stress on the nose strut and the resulting
forces on the firewall. We attempted to screen and train the pilots
but we always seemed to still have problems. It is a difficult skill
to maintain; properly done, you can't see over the nose on landing,
and the need for power on landing is contrary to most pilot's desire
to stop after touchdown.
The second problem was related, if you want to fly at the proper climb
speed for towing slower gliders you'll have a very nose-high attitude
that makes most pilots uncomfortable. Again you can't see over the
nose well and the ASI reads down in the botton of the green arc. We
towed with 10 degress of flaps so we were actually well above stall
speed and the ship was very light. No amount of discussion seemed to
convince most of the pilots that we were well within safe operational
limits.
The combination of these two issues diminished the "pool of pilots"
and we still had trouble finding tow pilots willing to fly the C182.
I really enjoyed towing with the C182 and would do it again without
hesitation, but the average pilot, trained in the usual Cessna
operations, seems to resist flying the aircraft in the manner we
desired. I think it would make a big difference to fly off a paved
runway for most pilots but the high nose attitude during the tow would
still need to be addressed.
If you can come up with a good training/procedure then it may still be
workable for your club.
Mike
sne...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Fault Line Flyers at Briggs Texas (1160 msl) has operated Cessna 150s
with 180 hp engines for many years (about 20 I think). The runway is
grass and the summer temps can reach 105F. The 150/180 has towed all
comers. Towing the Grob with two fat boys aboard the climb is pretty
slow, but it has worked. About 7 years ago the club added a Pawnee
235 Hp. The Pawnee has about double the climb rate of the Cessna
150/180. I do not recall any nose wheel problems with the Cessna. We
have had some damage to the horizonal tail from flying rocks. I do
not keep the books, but I think the Cessna has operated much cheaper
than the Pawnee. I think the tow pilots like flying the Pawnee more
than the Cessna.
I a light glider you have a little better chance of finding a thermal
behind the Cessna. In my PW-5, I typically ask for a tow straight
into the wind and behind the Pawnee I am typically at 2000 feet
wiithin 2 miles of the start of the take off roll.
Bill Snead
Darryl Ramm
> I don't think I've ever seen 285HP on a Pawnee, 150, 235 and 260 are the
> norm, plus we have an STC to bump our 235 to 25HP. Is there a similar STC
> for the 260 to 285 conversion?
>
> BT
>
I don't think I've ever seen a 285 hp either. That would make it a
Pawnee Brave. I had mean to type 235hp. Hey it was posted from an
iPhone...
Darryl
Burt Compton - Marfa
>
> In a light glider you have a little better chance of finding a thermal
> behind the Cessna. In my PW-5, I typically ask for a tow straight
> into the wind and behind the Pawnee I am typically at 2000 feet
> wiithin 2 miles of the start of the take off roll.
>
> Bill Snead
Bill's comment is interesting. Dick Johnson also preferred my lighter
Cessna 150 / 180 HP (with a climb prop) over my 1958 Cessna 182A so he
could develop a sense of the thermal activity during a slower tow up
to 7,000' msl (2,200 agl) at Marfa, west Texas.
I operated my tricycle gear Cessna 150 and 182 towplanes off of grass
for decades in Miami. No problems if you keep the nosewheel "light"
all the time, even during taxi and takeoff. Land on the main wheels,
holding the nosewheel off as long as possible. Go easy on the brakes.
This also applies to operating on paved runways of course. Come to
think of it, most of the towplanes I've towed behind in Germany are
tricycle gear Robins, Rallyes, or touring motorgliders.
Don't get me wrong, 180 Super Cubs and 235 Pawnee's are great fun, but
the cheaper Cessna's often work better in the occasional crazy
crosswinds we enjoy out west, and tri-gear towpilots are easier to
find. Not all pilots can be trained to tow -- some are not ready to
release a glider if they are in trouble, fly at speeds a bit slower
than they are used to (with the ball centered) or have never learned
to rock wings. ("Dutch Rolls" are apparently not in the normal
Private / Commercial Pilot's airplane training syllabus.) Something
called "airmanship" is required to fly any towplane gracefully and
efficiently, but some towpilots treat them rough, dangerously diving
after release / beating them up on landing / putting them away with
dirty leading edges and props. Not cool, and it is not a tractor!
Whatever towplane you fly, treat it like the fine flying machine it is
and it will serve you well.
For more info on being the towpilot, Bob Wander has just informed me
that the book "The Towpilot Manual" is being published in a fifth
edition printing in his "Mentor" series of training guides. Available
at www.bobwander.com
Burt
Marfa Gliders Soaring Center
www.flygliders.com
"Marfa, Texas -- where yesterday's USA Today arrives tomorrow."
macquistan
Field elevation is 50ft. Denisty altitude during the summer is
1500-1800ft. There is a 800 ft grassy area from which we operate that
abuts the end of a 5,000ft paved runway. We launch from the grass and
climb over the paved runway.
Mark Tinsley
Mark Tinsley
mark
Frank Whiteley
tw...@stic.net
Yes, we are still using this plane to tow although it has been down for extended maintenance for a long time. In the meantime we are using another Cessna Aerobat 150/180 that we are renting from the owner. It has an interior auxiliary fuel tank that makes it heavier than ours so it doesn’t climb as well.
Tom