Good sailplanes for tall pilots?

[nyc...@gmail.com]

I am 6'4" tall. I weigh about 200-210lbs clothed. My height is fairly evenly distributed between legs and torso. My arms are rather long, though.
Please help me start developing a shopping list for a decent glider that I can enjoy owning and flying without cramps or impeded control movements. This would be my first foray into ownership, but I expect to own multiple in the future.

Factors to consider:
1. Prefer 2-place to single-seat, but I'm open to both.
2. If 2-place, must be FAA type-certified with standard airworthiness certificate. No experimentals. I want to be able to give commercial rides, instruction, and CAP cadet o-rides. Solo ships can be experimental, but not amateur-built.
3. Will consider self-launchers, sustainers, and motorgliders, but not looking to get into that price range.
4. Will consider antiques & open cockpits, if they have a provenance.
5. Not concerned with competition.
6. Acro would be a plus.
7. Will consider something life-limited (e.g., Lark) if I can get it super-cheap to use as a disposable platform for a couple hundred hours to better identify what I really want from a glider.
8. Priced under $30k, $10-15k is better.

My experience:
Highly active airplane pilot, IFR, 1000+ hours. Low-time glider pilot (<100 hrs).

Here's what I have flown:
L-23: Fits okay, not very charming to own.
ASK-21: Tight, but doable
G103: Tighter than the ASK-21, prefer to avoid
Bergfalke: Antique wooden open-cockpit novelty; not a candidate.

I'll be trying out a SGS 1-23 and an LS-1f this weekend. There are several KA-6 models for sale all over right now (did they just get hit with an AD or something?), so some targeted opinions on these 3 would be timely.

Cheers

[Bob Kuykendall]

The HP-24 would fit you just fine, I guarantee it. It has 18m tips and FES as options. You also get to do all your own inspections and maintenance.

https://www.facebook.com/HP-24-Sailplane-Project-200931354951

Thanks, Bob K.
b...@hpaircraft.com
www.hpaircraft.com

[franconias...@gmail.com]

I'm 6'1" with a long torso. I wasn't even CLOSE to fitting in the LS1-f.

I tried a discus B the other day.. Couldn't close the canopy.

I've flown and ASW-24.. but with no seat back, and no chute. Still wasn't comfortable.

I hear the HPH 304 is big. Going to try that.

I feel your pain. Just keep trying.

JP

[mzi...@hotmail.com]

Look at the Genesis 2... Very roomy cockpit. And there was one on wings fairly recently...

[shkdriver]

I'm 6'2", 220lbs, my standard cirrus fits me well with a strong 303 chute and a two inch backrest pad. Less than $20k and good factory support, I like it a lot.

Good lift,
Scott.

[golfsie...@gmail.com]

Mosquito, Jantar & Pik-20 have enormous cockpits.

I'm 6-3 and fit in the above with room to spare.

Nick.

[rudolph stutzmann]

DG 100/101 ( 1 piece canopy) or 300...
Roomy cockpit, reclined position. A friend of mine about your size fit well into his DG 100, without a chute though, and it had the 2 piece canopy...

[srath...@gmail.com]

I'm 6'4" tall 195 lbs.

I fit well in my LS3-a. I have been comfortable during long flights. My longest is 8+ hours.

The LS-4 has the same size cockpit as the LS-3 I believe.

[joesimmers]

Since you are snug in the G103, the roomiest cockpit
out there is the Genesis.

Also try Ventus 2bx or 2cx, make sure it is the "x"
I know a couple tall pilots who fit well in these.

However the ventus will be 3x the price of the Genesis.

[nyc...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 6:12:37 AM UTC-5, joesimmers wrote:
> Since you are snug in the G103, the roomiest cockpit
> out there is the Genesis.
>

Now that I think about it, I recall that the G103 had some crazy thick pads in the seat. At the time, I was fairly new to gliders, so it didn't occur to me that the pad thickness could be changed out. I think what I should do is:
1. Test the seat with no pads. If it's too tight, then that ship is off the list.
2. Test it with whatever pads the owner has. If I still fit, great. If not, then I know that a thinner pad will probably allow me to fit.
3. Research the availability of thinner pads for the glider described in #2 above. As long as I don't have to pay $2k for some custom-stitched job, I can get along.

Now parachutes are another story. Unless I have an acro bird, I do not plan to wear one. I hate them. And the thickness of a chute is likely to create insurmountable fit problems. Does anyone want to rebut these points? Or do I seem reasonable?

[nyc...@gmail.com]

The hpaircraft.com link times out with nothing loading. I don't use Facebook.

[steph...@lycos.com]

The roomiest cockpit by far (for modern gliders) is the DG-1000 / DG-1001 two-seater. Aerobatic with the 18 m tips, better performance of course with the 20 m tips. Even with a chute, it should be no problem at all.

[C-FFKQ (42)]

Have you considered a Schweitzer 2-32 ? Roomy, high canopy, great load carrying capability. Can fit two people in the back seat if they're real close and less than 300 lbs total.

I'm 6'3" and 230 lbs and fit quite nicely in my Kestrel 19 (and the H.401 Kestrel has the same fuselage), and I wear a parachute.

Odd (to me) that you complain about the G103. I fit quite nicely in a Twin Astir T, Twin II and Twin II Acro, but with very thin cushions. No parachute; I'd be too heavy.

I don't like the fit of the K-21; I pull out the seat back and the sides press into my shoulders. I don't fit at all with my parachute on, but again, too heavy.

[RomeoRomeo]

6'3' and weigh more than you (all I am going to say about that). I fly a 304cz very comfortably. I removed the seat back to get a bit more headroom, but is only an issue if you were going to share the glider with someone height chalenged. My height is mostly in my torso, but there is a version with a higher cutout for you legs for more legroom.

BTW I also fly a Duo T (not an XL) and there is no hope in the back seat, it might work in the front.

RR

[Bruce Hoult]

DG1000 is very roomy in the back, but a bit narrow in the front!

I've sometimes contemplated throwing a bunch of ballast in the front and flying it solo from the back. But I've always managed to find a victim willing to sit in the front...

[firsys]

On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 7:19:05 PM UTC-4, nyc...@gmail.com wrote:

Hooray! another plug for the Kestrel 19 ($15K US should buy one.)
JMF

[OHM Ω]

A 6'3" friend of mine flies with a parachute in his ASW-24 (no seat back) and in my previous DG-101 with seat back (and I have to assume the identical cockpit of the 100/200/300 series).

[John Wells]

Puchacz has to be the roomiest 2-seater I've ever seen.

[Papa3]

On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 7:19:05 PM UTC-4, nyc...@gmail.com wrote:

Just a note on your "requirements" - the major dividing point here is single place vs. 2 place. Frankly, there are very few 2-place gliders in the US that come close to meeting your core requirements based on price. Under $30K rules out K-21s, Grob 103s, SGS 2-32s, and any of the more modern, high performance ships. You're looking at K-13s, Larks (if you can find one), and other more rare birds. Acro will probably have to be dropped. Etc.

An original Twin Astir is an option; the front cockpit is huge and the seat load is enormous. There are typically some available to import from Europe; not as many in the US. A good one would probably push your $30K number by a bit.

If you give up on 2-place, then a lot of the single place options already given sound good. FWIW, my first glider was a share in a Grob Astir CS. It has easily the biggest cockpit of any single place glass ship I've flow (and I've flow a bunch for Schleichers, LS, Schempp Hirth, etc.).

Are you in the NY area? Your email sort of suggests this. If so, you can look at a few options out at Blairstown, including a Twin Astir.

Erik Mann

[PGS]

Are there many DG1000's available for less than $30,000?

[Bruce Hoult]

You might get a quarter or fifth share or so in one, depending on how it was set up :-)

[swanso...@yahoo.com]

I am 6'3". The grob 103 is comfortable without a parachute. But I don't fit with my parachute. A lark is a cheap two place ship if you can find one, but after an hour or so you'll be miserable.

For single place, an ASW19 is a great fit. You will need to remove the seat, which takes about 30 seconds. Its comfortable for at least 5 1/2 hours. The asw20 cockpit is the same design, so that might be a good fit also.

[Branko Stojkovic]

I'm 6'4" 175 lb. I co-owned a Twin Lark wit a couple of big tall guys, one my height but 190 lbs and one 6'2" 200 lbs. We could all fit in both cockpits, although it was a bit snug fo flights longer than 3 hors.
Branko

[herbk...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 6:13:40 PM UTC-5, Branko Stojkovic wrote:
> I'm 6'4" 175 lb. I co-owned a Twin Lark wit a couple of big tall guys, one my height but 190 lbs and one 6'2" 200 lbs. We could all fit in both cockpits, although it was a bit snug fo flights longer than 3 hors.
> Branko

You got to be kidding. A fiberglass 2-seater for under $30k? Not on this planet. All the types you mention are available - if you can find any - starting at $60-80k. They are mostly guaranteed to have bad gel coat. A reality check is in order.

[shkdriver]

While it may be splitting hairs, some sailplanes have a required equipment statement which stipulates either a parachute or a cushion of a specified thickness. Standard cirrus for instance has this requirement.

Just sayin'
Scott.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

6'3", 185 lbs.

There are several threads on RAS that discussed this in some detail in the past. A few points:

1. Height matters but torso height can matter just as much. That makes stories of someone else of X height fitting into Y glider not irrelevant, but just not very definitive. The only way to find out is to try out the specific cockpit yourself.
2. Gliders of the same make and model aren't always the same. My ASW 24, for example, has at least four different cockpit arrangements. The early serial numbers (up to about 32 or 36, IIRC) are tighter. Later ASW 24s benefited from the gear being mounted differently, which opened up the cockpit. the 24B seemed to have even more room. And then there's mine, a 24 that was equipped at the factory for tall pilots, which meant it has an aftermarket instrument panel with higher knee cutouts, the rudder pedals moved forward a few cm, and no back rest, instead getting the left and right covers over the baggage areas that come with the 24E motorglider and cover the fuel tanks. Fits me very well...with the right parachute.
3. Many gliders can be made to fit by removing the backrest (ASW 19/20, for example), putting in thinner cushions, etc. Some, like the LS-3 (which was very comfortable for me as is), have an adjustment not just for the upper backrest but also the lower mounting. Different combinations of upper and lower settings can yield significantly different fit and comfort. Again, the only way to find out is to try on the specific glider.
4. Speaking of parachutes, I appreciate not wanting to wear one. They can be uncomfortable just as some cockpits are. Mine is quite comfortable. It's also one of the few that will allow me to get into the glider: thin behind the shoulders and thick in the lumbar area. Most are the opposite or evenly thick. I don't wear one because of aerobatics. They're mandatory for contests, which is most of my flying these days. But as important, once you start spending time in crowded thermals in very close proximity with other gliders even around your local airport, you'll begin to understand why most of us wear chutes even when not required. With midair collision being the thing I fear the most because it's not completely within my control, knowing I have a chute strapped to my back is somewhat reassuring.
5. My focus has always been on cockpit length. Broader shoulders and torso can present their own challenges. The only way to find out for sure....

Chip Bearden

[2G]

I have spent a lot of money on a parachute that I never expect to use for the reasons you mention. The reality, however, is that a small number of glider pilot lives have been saved by the use of their parachutes. I acknowledge that even the remote possibility of my life being saved by a chute is worth the cost (certainly in my wife's mind!). The chute is clearly a matter of last resort, after all other efforts have failed. I believe that concentrating on those other interventions is at least as important. That said, I had the closest near miss ever this summer: I missed a head-on glider (closing speed of around 260 kt TAS) with a 15 ft wing tip to wing tip clearance!

Tom

[Surge]

I'm not sure about the two seater Nimbus 3 & 4 gliders but the Nimbus 2 cockpit is VERY long.
I'm 6'3" 200lbs, long in the legs and even with a parachute on and my legs stretched out straight I still have to bring the rudder pedals closer. I can barely fit into a G103 with a knee wrapped around the air brake lever.
You should be able to pick up a Nimbus 2B/C (conventional elevator) in reasonable condition for $20,000 or less or a Nimbus 2 (all flying tail) possibly for $15000. I paid about $9000 for a Nimbus 2 and another $3000 to refinish the wings so $13000 isn't bad for a good condition 47:1 glider IMO.
They're not everyone's cup of tea with regards to handling but maybe it's an option.
IMO buying a two seater is only really worth it if you regularly fly with someone else. I'd rather hire a two seater when I need one.

[mdfa...@gmail.com]

In the single place arena you might want to consider the Centrair Pegasus. Under $30K and good performance. You'd have to check on individual ship's cockpit loads but you should be fine.

[Martin Gregorie]

The Pegase, ASW-19 and ASW-20 all have essentially the same fuselage:
Centrair made ASW-20s under license before rolling out the Pegase.

If you're comfortable in any one of these, you'll also be comfortable in
the other two. Proof of sorts: I flew my club's Peg 90 a lot after
converting from their SZD Juniors and have also owned an ASW-20. I found
both to be equally comfortable.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[nyc...@gmail.com]

UPDATE:

I went out to the soaring club this weekend and tried on a few gliders.

1. The LS-1f is totally out. We tried every possible contortion and adjustment. If I slide down low enough to close the canopy, my knees are buried in the back of the instrument panel, lifting it out of position. I'm not keen on the possibility of accidentally disconnecting pitot-static lines, either.

2. The club has a G103 Twin II, which I can fit in.

3. The club also has a G102 Std III, which was tight but acceptable.

4. The club has an SGS 2-33, which I didn't bother sitting in because it's pretty obvious I will fit. And I'm not particularly keen on flying it much.

5. A club member has an SGS 1-26, which was very roomy and might be something I'd consider buying in order to get a lot of cheap flying under my belt before moving up to slicker ships. How does a Ka-6 compare to the fit of the 1-26? They seem very similar from the outside.

I think my biggest problem with fitting in slick single-seaters is going to be my long neck preventing canopy closure. That seemed to be the theme of the day, finding ways to lie as supine as possible to get the canopy closed.

As for chutes, since I don't intend to fly in competitions and the Grob hasn't had the AD mod to be flown acro, I feel no urgent need to get one.

A few of you mentioned the Lark; I thought they were all getting scrapped because of the life limit issue. Has anything improved on that front? A Lark might be a cheap thing to get and make available to the club.

Funny thing, the guys in the club who were helping me try on gliders started licking their chops at the idea that I might not fit in everything and thus would be flying tows most of the time! I guess there aren't a lot of guys willing to do that; but I don't mind.

FYI, I am in FL, not NY.

[nyc...@gmail.com]

Also, Disci and DG1000s and the ilk are pretty much out of the question. I'd go in on a share of one, but outright ownership is not in my budget.

And I'm not looking for acro in a 2-seater. Totally different pathways I'm willing to go down, so don't transpose my 2-seat requirements to a 1-seater and vice versa.

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

You might also look at the 1-34 if metal doesn't turn you off.
UH

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 2:23:47 AM UTC-5, nyc...@gmail.com wrote:
canopy closed.
>
> As for chutes, since I don't intend to fly in competitions and the Grob hasn't had the AD mod to be flown acro, I feel no urgent need to get one.

OT: That's like saying you don't wear seatbelts in your car because you don't intend to have an accident.

Funny how some countries mandate chute wear in gliders. Wonder what they know that we don't...

But I'm being a hypocrite - when I fly club ships I only wear a chute when doing acro. Since I usually only fly the club ships to give rides and the club doesn't have a chute for the passenger, I don't wear mine. But in my glider? Every time; even for a pattern tow.

BOT: You might try an LS3/4/8/6. Lots of rudder pedal adjustment. Ventus Bs also have long cockpits - and the Cirrus is the same shape, I believe?

Good luck with your search!

Kirk
66

[drguya...@gmail.com]

You should consider the LS4/6/8.
Large pilots usually completely remove the adjustable seat back. The rear cockpit bulkhead is flat and sloped just like a seatback. The LS series is designed to fly with a parachute.

[Dan Daly]

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:04:37 AM UTC-4, drguya...@gmail.com wrote:
> You should consider the LS4/6/8.
> Large pilots usually completely remove the adjustable seat back. The rear cockpit bulkhead is flat and sloped just like a seatback. The LS series is designed to fly with a parachute.

In the lower price range, the Standard Jantar usually has PU paint and has a very lengthy cockpit - second biggest cockpit (after the Genesis) I've seen. Long arms would be a bonus - instrument pod is well forward. Usually one on Wings and Wheels.

The HpH304 Shark is also very big, but way out of your stated price range.

Re: Ka6 - I'm 5'10" and found the Ka-6e to be snug for my height - had a 1/3 share for a year. 1-26's were bigger inside (though not particularly comfortable after an hour or two).

[avi...@gmail.com]

A Genesis 2 would be a good choice. Single seater though.holds a 155-242 lb. Pilot and is very roomy..

[SoaringXCellence]

> A few of you mentioned the Lark; I thought they were all getting scrapped because of the life limit issue. Has anything improved on that front? A Lark might be a cheap thing to get and make available to the club.
>

Not all Larks are subject to the life limit: there's on on W&W that is not and I flew it on Saturday, I kind of wish the club wasn't selling it!

MB

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 4:56:40 AM UTC-7, nyc...@gmail.com wrote:

> The hpaircraft.com link times out with nothing loading. I don't use Facebook.

The website was down a couple days last week. It's up now. The latest data sheet is here:

http://hpaircraft.com/hp-24/web_24_3view10.pdf

Actually, that data sheet omits the Front Electric Sustainer option that we are introducing on kit #6.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Marcin S]

On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 7:19:05 PM UTC-4, nyc...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am 6'4" tall. I weigh about 200-210lbs clothed. My height is fairly evenly distributed between legs and torso. My arms are rather long, though.
> Please help me start developing a shopping list for a decent glider that I can enjoy owning and flying without cramps or impeded control movements. This would be my first foray into ownership, but I expect to own multiple in the future.
>
> Factors to consider:
> 1. Prefer 2-place to single-seat, but I'm open to both.
> 2. If 2-place, must be FAA type-certified with standard airworthiness certificate. No experimentals. I want to be able to give commercial rides, instruction, and CAP cadet o-rides. Solo ships can be experimental, but not amateur-built.
> 3. Will consider self-launchers, sustainers, and motorgliders, but not looking to get into that price range.
> 4. Will consider antiques & open cockpits, if they have a provenance.
> 5. Not concerned with competition.
> 6. Acro would be a plus.
> 7. Will consider something life-limited (e.g., Lark) if I can get it super-cheap to use as a disposable platform for a couple hundred hours to better identify what I really want from a glider.
> 8. Priced under $30k, $10-15k is better.
>
> My experience:
> Highly active airplane pilot, IFR, 1000+ hours. Low-time glider pilot (<100 hrs).
>
> Here's what I have flown:
> L-23: Fits okay, not very charming to own.
> ASK-21: Tight, but doable
> G103: Tighter than the ASK-21, prefer to avoid
> Bergfalke: Antique wooden open-cockpit novelty; not a candidate.
>
> I'll be trying out a SGS 1-23 and an LS-1f this weekend. There are several KA-6 models for sale all over right now (did they just get hit with an AD or something?), so some targeted opinions on these 3 would be timely.
>
> Cheers

Hi,

I have a Jantar Std 2 that has a very long cockpit. It has 6 adjustment points for the seat back and I fly on number 4 and I am 6 ft and weigh 215 lbs. I am sure you can easily fit.

The glider is available for sale and you can see some pictures here: https://goo.gl/photos/UEKBzcrxa9PZNGQs7

Here is a link to my olc flights: http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightbook.html?sp=2016&st=olcp&rt=olc&pi=56048

and a video of a flight a while ago: https://youtu.be/MPw29q5XuKE

Thanks,

Marcin

[andymac...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 11:19:05 AM UTC+12, nyc...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am 6'4" tall. I weigh about 200-210lbs clothed. My height is fairly evenly distributed between legs and torso. My arms are rather long, though.
> Please help me start developing a shopping list for a decent glider that I can enjoy owning and flying without cramps or impeded control movements. This would be my first foray into ownership, but I expect to own multiple in the future.
>
> Factors to consider:
> 1. Prefer 2-place to single-seat, but I'm open to both.
> 2. If 2-place, must be FAA type-certified with standard airworthiness certificate. No experimentals. I want to be able to give commercial rides, instruction, and CAP cadet o-rides. Solo ships can be experimental, but not amateur-built.
> 3. Will consider self-launchers, sustainers, and motorgliders, but not looking to get into that price range.
> 4. Will consider antiques & open cockpits, if they have a provenance.
> 5. Not concerned with competition.
> 6. Acro would be a plus.
> 7. Will consider something life-limited (e.g., Lark) if I can get it super-cheap to use as a disposable platform for a couple hundred hours to better identify what I really want from a glider.
> 8. Priced under $30k, $10-15k is better.
>
> My experience:
> Highly active airplane pilot, IFR, 1000+ hours. Low-time glider pilot (<100 hrs).
>
> Here's what I have flown:
> L-23: Fits okay, not very charming to own.
> ASK-21: Tight, but doable
> G103: Tighter than the ASK-21, prefer to avoid
> Bergfalke: Antique wooden open-cockpit novelty; not a candidate.
>
> I'll be trying out a SGS 1-23 and an LS-1f this weekend. There are several KA-6 models for sale all over right now (did they just get hit with an AD or something?), so some targeted opinions on these 3 would be timely.
>
> Cheers

I'm a lanky 6'4" and fit with an old thick parachute nicely into a Glasflugel Mosquito...

[eagle...@yahoo.com]

Hello! We have two gentlemen on our club, one 6'6" (Bill)and one 6'7" (Chip). Bill is an ex-air force pilot who had a similar story. He gives rides in ONLY our G103, but bought an LS4, because it was the ONLY aircraft he felt most comfortable in. He removes the back seat pan, and wears a parachute, laying against the bulk head, but has had numerous 4+ hr flights. He is also a tow-pilot. Chip will ONLY fly our G103. I hope this helps?

-eagleyez

[eagle...@yahoo.com]

On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 7:19:05 PM UTC-4, nyc...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am 6'4" tall. I weigh about 200-210lbs clothed. My height is fairly evenly distributed between legs and torso. My arms are rather long, though.
> Please help me start developing a shopping list for a decent glider that I can enjoy owning and flying without cramps or impeded control movements. This would be my first foray into ownership, but I expect to own multiple in the future.
>
> Factors to consider:
> 1. Prefer 2-place to single-seat, but I'm open to both.
> 2. If 2-place, must be FAA type-certified with standard airworthiness certificate. No experimentals. I want to be able to give commercial rides, instruction, and CAP cadet o-rides. Solo ships can be experimental, but not amateur-built.
> 3. Will consider self-launchers, sustainers, and motorgliders, but not looking to get into that price range.
> 4. Will consider antiques & open cockpits, if they have a provenance.
> 5. Not concerned with competition.
> 6. Acro would be a plus.
> 7. Will consider something life-limited (e.g., Lark) if I can get it super-cheap to use as a disposable platform for a couple hundred hours to better identify what I really want from a glider.
> 8. Priced under $30k, $10-15k is better.
>
> My experience:
> Highly active airplane pilot, IFR, 1000+ hours. Low-time glider pilot (<100 hrs).
>
> Here's what I have flown:
> L-23: Fits okay, not very charming to own.
> ASK-21: Tight, but doable
> G103: Tighter than the ASK-21, prefer to avoid
> Bergfalke: Antique wooden open-cockpit novelty; not a candidate.
>
> I'll be trying out a SGS 1-23 and an LS-1f this weekend. There are several KA-6 models for sale all over right now (did they just get hit with an AD or something?), so some targeted opinions on these 3 would be timely.
>
> Cheers

We have two guys in our club, one is 6'6" (Bill) and the other 6'7" (Chip). Both guys will ONLY give rides in our G103. Bill is an Ex Air Force Col., who had a similar problem as you. He found an LS4 that was the "most" comfortable for him. He took the Seat Back out and flies with a parachute against the bulkhead and has had numerous 4+ hr flights. You also might consider an LS3a without a seat back, if you would like flaps? I hope this helps? Happy Searching!

-eagleyez