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Cameras in the Cockpit
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Casey
Jan 13, 2016, 7:37:34 AM1/13/16
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Just wondering how others feel about sport cameras in the cockpit. Does it help with learning or is it a distraction? Would it help in accident investigations? I've seen some speculation with accidents and if a camera had been on pilot then that could help determine if a medical emergency was the cause.
I know a CFIG that does not like students to have a camera in the cockpit because he thinks it is distracting to the student.
I know that my learning curve of flying and non-flying sports have been helped by me seeing any slight error in my technique.
I know some just don't want to learn another piece of electronics, but its much easier to download and just view. One does not have to edit or post, and the price of sport cameras are cheap for some of them out there.
Could definitive proof of pilot error cause legalities for the pilots family if others were involved in the accident?
I see a lot of cool soaring videos on youtube and most seem to be coming from Europe. Of course some of these have a lot of editing involved. I don't seem many instructional type soaring videos online though. Just yesterday I did see a video from Europe that a pilot did a bungee launch with spoilers open and landed out with near accident, which was informative/instructional.
Casey
I know a CFIG that does not like students to have a camera in the cockpit because he thinks it is distracting to the student.
I know that my learning curve of flying and non-flying sports have been helped by me seeing any slight error in my technique.
I know some just don't want to learn another piece of electronics, but its much easier to download and just view. One does not have to edit or post, and the price of sport cameras are cheap for some of them out there.
Could definitive proof of pilot error cause legalities for the pilots family if others were involved in the accident?
I see a lot of cool soaring videos on youtube and most seem to be coming from Europe. Of course some of these have a lot of editing involved. I don't seem many instructional type soaring videos online though. Just yesterday I did see a video from Europe that a pilot did a bungee launch with spoilers open and landed out with near accident, which was informative/instructional.
Casey
roel.b...@gmail.com
Jan 13, 2016, 7:45:38 AM1/13/16
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I have used a camera (ContourHD and later a GoPro3white) for filming my aerobatic routines.
I see lots of things on film which I don't notice during the flight itself, because so much is happening. I'm getting way more from each tow when I use the camera.
From time to time the operating of the camera can be a distraction, in much the same way that other new gear can be. This is valid for both the mounting (suction cups failing) and operating the camera.
However, with proper preparation and the right mindset I believe you can operate them safely.
I see lots of things on film which I don't notice during the flight itself, because so much is happening. I'm getting way more from each tow when I use the camera.
From time to time the operating of the camera can be a distraction, in much the same way that other new gear can be. This is valid for both the mounting (suction cups failing) and operating the camera.
However, with proper preparation and the right mindset I believe you can operate them safely.
Jim White
Jan 13, 2016, 8:30:08 AM1/13/16
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I often fly with a camera. I enjoy some of the footage but most is
unbelievably boring!!! If you intend to publish any of it, get good at
editing.
CAUTION: The camera itself is not the problem. Problems arise when the
pilot becomes cameraman / director in a film. There is a massive temptation
to do things which will look exciting to the viewer, which may not be
sensible from a flight safety point of view. The pictures may also become
evidence of breaking the Rules of the Air. e.g. low flying.
We had a fatal here in the UK when the pilot thought that flying closer to
a cameraman standing on a Land Rover would result in a better picture.
Use with discretion.
Jim
unbelievably boring!!! If you intend to publish any of it, get good at
editing.
CAUTION: The camera itself is not the problem. Problems arise when the
pilot becomes cameraman / director in a film. There is a massive temptation
to do things which will look exciting to the viewer, which may not be
sensible from a flight safety point of view. The pictures may also become
evidence of breaking the Rules of the Air. e.g. low flying.
We had a fatal here in the UK when the pilot thought that flying closer to
a cameraman standing on a Land Rover would result in a better picture.
Use with discretion.
Jim
smfidler
Jan 13, 2016, 9:12:06 AM1/13/16
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Recording glider flight video is great fun! Yes, safety is a worthwhile concern.
I try to set my cameras to be 99.9% "press record and forget." Once in awhile I will adjust the angle of my forward camera from recording "me" to recording "something interesting" to the side. But overall you do not want to spend much time paying attention to "aiming" the camera or changing batteries or SD cards. This is bad news. My other "over the shoulder" camera position faces forward and gets the panel usually and 60 degrees to each side. It is easy to interlace these 2 camera angles into a nice continuous multi-angle video with common video editing software such as Final Cut Pro which can time sync simultaneous video easily by using the sound.
Also be careful to run any wires carefully to ensure they are free of any flight controls. I run extended batteries and multiple cameras at times on ReplayXD cameras. This takes some planning. Each glider is quite different. Don't just run up to the glider and slap in in and go flying. Leave ample time to test angles and make sure the camera is free of control movements and not obstructing your vision.
7T
I try to set my cameras to be 99.9% "press record and forget." Once in awhile I will adjust the angle of my forward camera from recording "me" to recording "something interesting" to the side. But overall you do not want to spend much time paying attention to "aiming" the camera or changing batteries or SD cards. This is bad news. My other "over the shoulder" camera position faces forward and gets the panel usually and 60 degrees to each side. It is easy to interlace these 2 camera angles into a nice continuous multi-angle video with common video editing software such as Final Cut Pro which can time sync simultaneous video easily by using the sound.
Also be careful to run any wires carefully to ensure they are free of any flight controls. I run extended batteries and multiple cameras at times on ReplayXD cameras. This takes some planning. Each glider is quite different. Don't just run up to the glider and slap in in and go flying. Leave ample time to test angles and make sure the camera is free of control movements and not obstructing your vision.
7T
uncl...@ix.netcom.com
Jan 13, 2016, 9:55:49 AM1/13/16
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They can be fun to watch and educational but can have negative consequences.
Examples:
One pilot published a video of him talking on the phone while getting ready top land out. It sets a terrible example and shows his poor judgement at that time.
Another has published some really good videos done during contests that document significant periods of flying near cloud base in violation of FAR's. If the Friendly Aviation Association were to pursue this, I can't imagine how it would be defended to get a favorable result.
As to training, If a recording showed a questionable piece of training, possibly followed later by corrective instruction, it could easily be used by an attorney in another case to imply a pattern of bad training. My opinion is that the risk of this far outweighs the likely benefit.
Of course the best solution is to always do it right, but everyone makes errors and selective editing can show whatever the editor wants.
Better safe than sorry.
UH
bucc...@gmail.com
Jan 13, 2016, 11:14:30 AM1/13/16
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I fly the Alps for enjoyment. It is a very challenging arena to say the least. There is always something to learn from other pilots. One pilot has posted his flights on You Tube with excellent educational editing and comments. I've learned a great deal from his videos. Find such an example here:
http://vimotube.com/watch/KVoteMdJTWY/glider-flight-from-puimoisson-to-the-aletschglacier.html
Great educational video for all who fly the Alps.
http://vimotube.com/watch/KVoteMdJTWY/glider-flight-from-puimoisson-to-the-aletschglacier.html
Great educational video for all who fly the Alps.
gregg...@gmail.com
Jan 13, 2016, 11:58:07 AM1/13/16
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The presence of a camera changes pilot behavior. Truth. Hangies call it Kodak courage, skydiving has had lots of video cameras as training(and ego) tools since the big old expensive VHS camera days the danger is well known. Not saying don't do it, just saying there is a pile of bodies from camera related behavior changes and we need to be vigilant about the effect of having cameras on board, or pointing at us from the ground. Fun little experiment, get a big camera(doesn't have to work) and tripod have a friend set it up away from where gliders usually roll out and watch where pilots land. Like moths to a flame...
Ramy
Jan 13, 2016, 12:03:28 PM1/13/16
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I am thinking something like a CVR but video which is always on during the flight and capture the whole flight or the last 30 minutes of pilot action and the outside could be very helpful for accident investigation. No need to publish or even save it if nothing went wrong.
Ramy
Ramy
Dan Daly
Jan 13, 2016, 1:23:00 PM1/13/16
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On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 12:03:28 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> I am thinking something like a CVR but video which is always on during the flight and capture the whole flight or the last 30 minutes of pilot action and the outside could be very helpful for accident investigation. No need to publish or even save it if nothing went wrong.
>
> Ramy
Most pilots won't give up .igc files when they are in an accident; much more factual information available there than with a camera (in my opinion). It is usually possible to sort out what went wrong. Without such data, you are just another person with an opinion.
> I am thinking something like a CVR but video which is always on during the flight and capture the whole flight or the last 30 minutes of pilot action and the outside could be very helpful for accident investigation. No need to publish or even save it if nothing went wrong.
>
> Ramy
I worry about cameras not sufficiently restrained during an accident injuring the pilot or passenger...
WB
Jan 13, 2016, 2:08:21 PM1/13/16
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On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 10:58:07 AM UTC-6, gregg...@gmail.com wrote:
> The presence of a camera changes pilot behavior. Truth. Hangies call it Kodak courage, skydiving has had lots of video cameras as training(and ego) tools since the big old expensive VHS camera days the danger is well known. Not saying don't do it, just saying there is a pile of bodies from camera related behavior changes and we need to be vigilant about the effect of having cameras on board, or pointing at us from the ground. Fun little experiment, get a big camera(doesn't have to work) and tripod have a friend set it up away from where gliders usually roll out and watch where pilots land. Like moths to a flame...
Puts me in mind of the skydiver at Louisburg, NC who got so distracted by his camera that he forgot his chute...
> The presence of a camera changes pilot behavior. Truth. Hangies call it Kodak courage, skydiving has had lots of video cameras as training(and ego) tools since the big old expensive VHS camera days the danger is well known. Not saying don't do it, just saying there is a pile of bodies from camera related behavior changes and we need to be vigilant about the effect of having cameras on board, or pointing at us from the ground. Fun little experiment, get a big camera(doesn't have to work) and tripod have a friend set it up away from where gliders usually roll out and watch where pilots land. Like moths to a flame...
Message has been deleted
benhir...@gmail.com
Jan 13, 2016, 2:50:15 PM1/13/16
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There are a number of cameras coming to market that will be able to automatically edit video. They run continuously and detect when something interesting is happening, then edit out the rest. You can also talk to them while recording to make sure they save a key moment. This one looks promising. I ordered one and will give it a try.
http://getgraava.com?ct-referral-code=VmJqzN8r
It also does hyperlapse, which can make fast-forward sections of the flight appear super smooth.
It can also use a heart rate sensor to decide how to edit the video. That will make sure your crash footage is saved. :)
http://getgraava.com?ct-referral-code=VmJqzN8r
It also does hyperlapse, which can make fast-forward sections of the flight appear super smooth.
It can also use a heart rate sensor to decide how to edit the video. That will make sure your crash footage is saved. :)
Casey
Jan 13, 2016, 4:39:46 PM1/13/16
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Ensure you post a vid for us to review.
Dan Marotta
Jan 13, 2016, 5:49:23 PM1/13/16
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Forgot to put it on or forgot to open it? The chute I used had an
automatic opening device which used altitude and airspeed to pull
the ripcord.
--
Dan, 5J
Dan, 5J
Paul Agnew
Jan 13, 2016, 7:05:15 PM1/13/16
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"I am thinking something like a CVR but video which is always on during the flight and capture the whole flight or the last 30 minutes of pilot action and the outside could be very helpful for accident investigation. No need to publish or even save it if nothing went wrong. "
Absolutely not - unless completely voluntary in your private aircraft. We have fought this in the 121 world for decades. Voice recorders were agreed to with the strict stipulation that the actual recordings never are released to the public, yet there have be audio releases after some major accidents anyway. Widows are hearing their husbands last scream before impact. Just not right...
As for CFIs - back in the 80's we were told not to allow video cameras during training flights for liability reasons. Supposedly, somebody's widow used a video to claim the CFI didn't teach a maneuver properly. (I wish I had some actual facts on the case to share on this.)
FYI - The FAA is gathering information on videos and pictures being posted on the internet to determine if they need to start enforcing PED use regulations already in place. Check out http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_8900.292.pdf
Paul A.
Jupiter, FL
Paul Agnew
Jan 13, 2016, 7:05:15 PM1/13/16
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Casey
Jan 13, 2016, 8:58:52 PM1/13/16
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That would not be a bad job to have. Fed benefits watching youtube videos shot from UAS's.
Larry Suter
Jan 14, 2016, 12:13:08 AM1/14/16
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Occasionally students will pull out a camera that mounts on their head. I don't allow that since it could break a canopy (and maybe the student's head) in turbulence.
I wouldn't want someone putting a selfie-stick out the small window of one of our club ships because of the potential for cracking a canopy. We just replaced the rear canopy on one of our G-103s; cost $7 by the time it was all done. Insurance picked most of it up, which means we all pay for it.
Larry
I wouldn't want someone putting a selfie-stick out the small window of one of our club ships because of the potential for cracking a canopy. We just replaced the rear canopy on one of our G-103s; cost $7 by the time it was all done. Insurance picked most of it up, which means we all pay for it.
Larry
Chris Rollings
Jan 14, 2016, 1:15:06 AM1/14/16
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I am aware of one accident caused by a dropped camera jamming behind the
stick. Both occupants of the glider were seriously injured.
At 05:13 14 January 2016, Larry Suter wrote:
>Occasionally students will pull out a camera that mounts on their head. I
>d=
stick. Both occupants of the glider were seriously injured.
At 05:13 14 January 2016, Larry Suter wrote:
>Occasionally students will pull out a camera that mounts on their head. I
>on't allow that since it could break a canopy (and maybe the student's
>head=
>) in turbulence.
>
>I wouldn't want someone putting a selfie-stick out the small window of
one
>=
>
>I wouldn't want someone putting a selfie-stick out the small window of
one
>of our club ships because of the potential for cracking a canopy. We just
>r=
>eplaced the rear canopy on one of our G-103s; cost $7 by the time it was
>al=
Justin Craig
Jan 14, 2016, 4:15:07 AM1/14/16
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Weigh up the risk V's benefit.
I accept that there is the "Kodak courage" element, which is impossible to
to ignore, however, as long as you are aware of this and consider your
airman-ship before and during your flight, surely this to be manageable?
If you are concerned about your flights being watched and being prosecuted
for breaking the law... you shouldn't be breaking the law...simple.
Security - Ensure it is properly and securely mounted prior to take off.
Consideration should be paid to the effects on the air frame if outside,
and to pilot safety and security if inside.
I would be concerned about somebody's competence / confidence if the sole
reason for carrying a camera is so the investigators can watch the crash
after they are dead.
NOW consider a well secured camera with good edited footage placed in the
public domain and what impact that could have on the sport as a whole.
The opening credits to this movie are very relevant to this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ1jnQtCMiM
I accept that there is the "Kodak courage" element, which is impossible to
to ignore, however, as long as you are aware of this and consider your
airman-ship before and during your flight, surely this to be manageable?
If you are concerned about your flights being watched and being prosecuted
for breaking the law... you shouldn't be breaking the law...simple.
Security - Ensure it is properly and securely mounted prior to take off.
Consideration should be paid to the effects on the air frame if outside,
and to pilot safety and security if inside.
I would be concerned about somebody's competence / confidence if the sole
reason for carrying a camera is so the investigators can watch the crash
after they are dead.
NOW consider a well secured camera with good edited footage placed in the
public domain and what impact that could have on the sport as a whole.
The opening credits to this movie are very relevant to this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ1jnQtCMiM
mom2...@gmail.com
Jan 14, 2016, 4:30:44 AM1/14/16
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$7 ?
Bruce Hoult
Jan 14, 2016, 7:39:33 AM1/14/16
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I've found reviewing them useful to improve my instruction, and many students have found them useful to spot things they did wrong during the flight. It's amazing for example how easy it is to figure where that thermal really was afterwards, when it wasn't obvious (to the student) during the flight.
One of my earliest recording attempts as a fresh instructor 3 1/2 years ago is going to hit 50000 views in another day or two (it still gets 70 - 100 views a day with occasional spikes to maybe 250):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDZN21xzsRo
JS
Jan 14, 2016, 8:20:49 AM1/14/16
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Tried it in a few gliders.
Wasn't comfortable with the line of sight or hitting the pilot's head on it possibility.
Jim
Wasn't comfortable with the line of sight or hitting the pilot's head on it possibility.
Jim
Jim Kellett
Jan 14, 2016, 9:26:51 AM1/14/16
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On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 7:37:34 AM UTC-5, Casey wrote:
> Just wondering how others feel about sport cameras in the cockpit.
<snip>
I've made several training videos with a GoPro strapped to my forehead (helps me make a point about what scanning looks like) that I sometimes use in preflight briefings. The YouTube links to them are 'private' (meaning you won't find them when searching YouTube).
Burt Compton is in the process of uploading similar training videos that are being uploaded to the SSF website (q.v., http://soaringsafety.org/learning/FTvideos.html).
Finally, several students (with my blessing) record their training flights for their (and occasionally, my) post-flight review. Nothing hand-held, of course, and the attachments are carefully selected for safety. Without exception, those students have found their reviews of such flights extremely useful as have I.
Casey
Jan 14, 2016, 9:41:34 AM1/14/16
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ygN9G_uocI
smfidler
Jan 14, 2016, 9:48:54 AM1/14/16
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To be fair, I am sure that the same accident you refer too could have been caused by an "errant" oudie PDA or cell phone or water bottle or a small still camera or any other "foreign object" in the cockpit, right?
We are not demonizing action cameras alone here, are we?
In my view, ANY foriegn object of the right size/shape has the same potential to restrict flight controls and cause an accident. Even a RAM mount itself could cause a problem if it comes "unstuck" at just the right moment.
I'm sure you are in full agreement with my clarification and that you did not intend to state that action cameras (such as GoPros) were potentially dangerous (causing accidents with serious injuries) while other, FAR MORE COMMON, glider cockpit foriegn objects were not equally dangerous.
They all require care and come with a small risk if not carefully managed.
I wonder, should we ban all foreign objects in glider cockpits? Even a POWERFlarm portable, velcroed to the deck has the potential to come off and get caught in the stick or even pedals.
Ban all foreign objects in the cockpit? RC? Just kidding ;-)!
7T
We are not demonizing action cameras alone here, are we?
In my view, ANY foriegn object of the right size/shape has the same potential to restrict flight controls and cause an accident. Even a RAM mount itself could cause a problem if it comes "unstuck" at just the right moment.
I'm sure you are in full agreement with my clarification and that you did not intend to state that action cameras (such as GoPros) were potentially dangerous (causing accidents with serious injuries) while other, FAR MORE COMMON, glider cockpit foriegn objects were not equally dangerous.
They all require care and come with a small risk if not carefully managed.
I wonder, should we ban all foreign objects in glider cockpits? Even a POWERFlarm portable, velcroed to the deck has the potential to come off and get caught in the stick or even pedals.
Ban all foreign objects in the cockpit? RC? Just kidding ;-)!
7T
Jim White
Jan 14, 2016, 5:15:06 PM1/14/16
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At 14:48 14 January 2016, smfidler wrote:
>To be fair, I am sure that the same accident you refer too could have
been
>=
>To be fair, I am sure that the same accident you refer too could have
been
>caused by an "errant" oudie PDA or cell phone or water bottle or a small
>st=
In the case mentioned there were several factors that led to the accident.
It was a trial flight. The instructor was tired, the pupil had been
drinking, there was an opening forward of the stick that the pupil's camera
fell in and fitted perfectly, and the instructor did not pull the release
when he found he could not move the stick forward.
The instructor hurt his back and the pupil broke his legs badly in the
ensuing incipient spin in from tow.
Completely different scenario from filming. No filming was taking place
especially no filming by the pilot in command.
Shit happens.
Eric Bick (ZN7)
Jan 18, 2016, 7:26:38 PM1/18/16
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In my Soaring magazine column, I've asked for someone to write an article for Soaring magazine about the use of cameras in the cockpit since earliest days - from hand-held cameras in competitions to record turn points, to the latest in selfies, go-pros, externally mounted and so on. The current use has generated a lot of comments about pros and cons. Someone knowledgeable could help a bit by describing this history. I've also asked for articles, pro and con, on safety aspects of selfies, and other uses of cameras, particularly in the cockpit, but also externally mounted. So far, no takers. Any takers in the RAS community? edi...@ssa.org
Chris Rollings
Jan 19, 2016, 3:00:11 AM1/19/16
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I recall hearing about an accident some time ago, a pupil on an
introductory lesson, having been told not to take a camera along, did so
any way. Shortly after take=off (on aerotow) he dropped the camera and it
jammed behind the stick. Both occupants were very seriously injured.
At 00:26 19 January 2016, Eric Bick ZN7 wrote:
>In my Soaring magazine column, I've asked for someone to write an article
>f=
introductory lesson, having been told not to take a camera along, did so
any way. Shortly after take=off (on aerotow) he dropped the camera and it
jammed behind the stick. Both occupants were very seriously injured.
At 00:26 19 January 2016, Eric Bick ZN7 wrote:
>In my Soaring magazine column, I've asked for someone to write an article
>or Soaring magazine about the use of cameras in the cockpit since
earliest
>=
earliest
>days - from hand-held cameras in competitions to record turn points, to
>the=
> latest in selfies, go-pros, externally mounted and so on. The current
use
>=
use
>has generated a lot of comments about pros and cons. Someone
knowledgeable
>=
knowledgeable
>could help a bit by describing this history. I've also asked for
articles,
>=
articles,
>pro and con, on safety aspects of selfies, and other uses of cameras,
>parti=
>cularly in the cockpit, but also externally mounted. So far, no takers.
>Any=
smfidler
Jan 19, 2016, 11:26:11 AM1/19/16
to
PM me.
steph...@lycos.com
Jan 20, 2016, 4:51:06 AM1/20/16
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I know of at least one accident (2 killed) in France where evidence from the passenger's camera was used to prove that aerobatic maneuvres were performed with the (non aerobatic) Marianne glider. You could even see the wing breaking up...
Final report (in French) here: http://www.bea.aero/les-enquetes/les-evenements-notifies/detail/event/manoeuvre-brusque-perte-de-controle-en-vol-collision-avec-le-sol/#download-main
Final report (in French) here: http://www.bea.aero/les-enquetes/les-evenements-notifies/detail/event/manoeuvre-brusque-perte-de-controle-en-vol-collision-avec-le-sol/#download-main
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