Alternatives for glider insurance?
MHende6388
Who are you using to insure your glider?
What kinds of annual rates for used sailplanes ($15,000 - $20,000 value) for
what types of coverages? (i.e. hull damage, storage, road transport, liability,
etc.)
Also, for ships in the $50,000 value category?
Lastly, is there anyone out there offering commercial glider coverage other
than Costello?
Thanking you in advance for your experiences,
mh
Deputy Dog
Florida and cost was about $300 less than costello for same coverage
limits/deducts.
When I came up for renewal, I again got a quote from Florida agent and
Costello. Costello was about $200 less and AIG was the actual insurer that
both agents were quoting. I asked Costello why they were so high first year
and so much less the second. They said they give you a credit for accident
free year even if you are insured with another carrier.
Quotes vary significantly based on total hours and hours in make/model, and
the phase of the moon, so my quote may not compare at all with yours.
I have ATPand CFI w/single-engine, multi-engine, instrument, and glider
ratings and my $35,000 hull coverage on Discus B and 1,000,000 liability
with 100,000 passenger sublimit is around $1,100. I insure trailer thru my
auto/homeowners so it is included in my umbrella coverage.
Hope that helps-
Deputy Dog
"MHende6388" <mhend...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011121130245...@mb-fc.aol.com...
F.L. Whiteley
news:20011121212123...@mb-fg.aol.com...
> I'll bite.
> Costello did me about 800 on a Schweizer 1-34 @ $15,000. Glider was <35:1
and I
> had >51 hours. First Glider. Thinking of liability only next year but I
will
> get the break for one year with no wreck if I can last one more month.
>
> It seems that the budget glider gets hit the hardest. If the glider cost 3
> times the amount, the insurance is only twice. I am finding this in Power
as
> well.
A 1-36 was recently damaged in an outlanding back east. The repair estimate
was $27,000, far in excess of the hull or insured value.
1. Don't under-insure your hull.
2. Schweizer parts are _really_ expensive.
3. Avoid being penny-wise and pound foolish. There seems to be a bit of
this in soaring.
4. Self insurance may work among a group of 10 or so. It was suggested and
maybe even tried in the '70's. I don't think I'd go down that route alone.
5. I've had two claims since 1977 (when I started). One partner wrote off
a glider (1978, 4000UKP, my share 1000UKP, UKP was ~$2US at the time). The
second was all mine (1994, ~$5,500, 185UKP(at $1.65) for materials, the
remainder was labor, deductible was insured). Yes, they are less than my
total premiums since 1977, but coverage was nice to have when needed.
6. Generally, insurance premiums result from no-claims discounts,
experience, and a fixed percentage of hull value, perhaps with a performance
factor. IIRC, our club ships all share the same hull value percentage for
coverage (but I would have to verify this). A portion is liability, but
beyond this it's been about 4.1% of insured value IIRC. The club does
impose experience limitations on solo flight, so there are stepping stones
to increased complexity and performance. It could be that the average
repair costs of a 1-34 are indeed higher than a higher valued glass ship.
Yes, your premiums are higher than mine for your lower market (and insured)
value ship.
Happy hunting,
Frank
Colorado
Marc Ramsey
> A 1-36 was recently damaged in an outlanding back east. The repair
> estimate was $27,000, far in excess of the hull or insured value.
>
> 1. Don't under-insure your hull.
Actually, I intentionally slightly under-insure my hull. Why?
The last thing I want is to end up with a repaired glider that
should have been totaled. I dislike gliders that fly sideways...
Marc
--
_____________________________
Marc Ramsey, ma...@ranlog.com
http://www.ranlog.com/ramsey/
XcNick
Al
coverage.
They are only able to service west coast aircraft however.
Al
"XcNick" <xcn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011121212123...@mb-fg.aol.com...
JJ Sinclair
$15,000 Hull. It was worth at least $20,0000 at the time. He hit a fence and
scraped a wing, estimitated about $8,000 to fix it up. The insurance company
handed him a check for $14,000 and took his glider. The $14,000 came from the
insured value minus deductable ($1000) for off field landing). I would
recommend you insure for close to full value or don't carry Hull at all.
Our figures on the ASH-25, from AVEMCO, are:
Liability (1,000,000 total, $100,000 each
person)-------------------------$354
Hull ($100,000 stated value), $2500 deductable--------------------$1398
Total---------------------- $1752
The deductable is on the high side, but we (three owners) want to cover the
catastrophic accident, not the small stuff. I also know a guy that will work on
it free.
_____________
\________________[[]]__________|__________[[]]________________/
(")
"
JJ Sinclair
F.L. Whiteley
"Marc Ramsey" <ma...@ranlog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91612A6...@64.164.98.7...
> "F.L. Whiteley" <gre...@greeleynet.com> wrote:
> > A 1-36 was recently damaged in an outlanding back east. The repair
> > estimate was $27,000, far in excess of the hull or insured value.
> >
> > 1. Don't under-insure your hull.
>
> Actually, I intentionally slightly under-insure my hull. Why?
> The last thing I want is to end up with a repaired glider that
> should have been totaled. I dislike gliders that fly sideways...
>
terms of glider damage there are craftsmen and there are repairmen and it
pays to know the difference. I haven't shopped the US used market actively
in 20 years, but when I last did I discovered gliders with obvious repairs,
but NDH in the ads and nothing in the logbook. Stigmas are funny things.
At least in European markets, you know who made a proper repair, since there
is much less prejudice against properly repaired damage, especially when the
glider comes out within a few ounces of its original weight. That doesn't
mean there aren't problems there, but I think less frequently.
By underinsuring, you are simply raising your premiums artifically since you
will be more out of pocket for replacement. If you do enough damage to make
proper repair alignment unlikely, you're probably looking at a write-off in
any event. You should insure against replacement cost at the minimum.
Given xnick's example, it makes no sense to me to insure a 1-34 for $12,000
(under insured) when replacement cost is likely to run $15,000 (market
value) and significant damage (without pilot injury) can exceed $20,000.
He's grousing about the $800 premium. Paying $650 for the lesser coverage
would help? Is no hull insurance (even for the A&P) sensible? xnick should
get the Schweizer price list first. Under-insuring seems to only benefit
the salvage/rebuild project market. There's usually one or two of those
along the wall of every glider shop I've ever in.
I guess the question begs itself, why would you have to accept a repaired
glider that did, in fact, fly sideways. If you refused to accept it, with
justification, maybe the underwriters would quit allowing work to those that
can't make acceptable repairs. Has anyone ever done this in the US?
Costello represents you, the pilot, in a claims situation. If you insure
directly with an underwriter's agent, they represent the company. An
important distinction when shopping insurance and premiums. It's just
something else to consider.
Frank
Colorado
XcNick
Thanks. I did not know that.
I respect the statistics the insurance companies work from. I am meeting their
minimums with more zeal than the badges. However I have no faith in the claim
system.
I have only made one claim in my life. It was on my auto and I wasn't driving.
After that experience I never had collision again until I bought the Schweizer.
I feel safer in the glider than I do in my car, hence my willingness to go
liability only.
Unlike JJ I don't have someone to work for free. Doing it myself would cut into
my flying and I would loose the opportunity to make money elsewhere. Eager to
fly I think replacement cost is correct. I figure if they totaled it I could
buy that one in Texas if it is still for sale.
But the Thread goes to how hard it is to compare. I made note of AIG, Costello,
and now PIK west. Last year I only new of Costello. I imagine they have
different minimums and levels of coverage so as to make them difficult to
compare.
This would be a great FAQ page. List the available providers and the scales
they use. Is this something for the Minden Club's new Web Site? There's nothing
like a little content to slow down that goowie stuff.
Heck, can't we sell them space on the site to provide the information. They
might be happy to maintain their own data on the page if we don't charge them
for the free advertising.
gobble gobble
xcnick
JJ Sinclair
frowning and one guy with a blank expression on his face. Who is who? The guy
that's smiling is your sailesman, your broker, your agent. He doesn't know
about any problems, as long as you pay your premium, everything is just fine.
The guy that's frowning is the insurance company, the claims agent, your
adjuster. Nothing is right, he doesn't like your paper work, the repair bid is
too high, he's not going to pay anything until thirty days after the ship is
repaired and then he's going to give the repair station a *draft*, not a check.
BTW, you can't eat a draft, you can't pay your bills with a draft, you can't
cash a draft, all you can do is depost it and wait another ten days for the
insurance bank to send out a real check. Now guess who is the guy with the
blank expression on his face? You, the insured, the chump that paid your
premiums and thought you were covered.
I could go on, but I think you get where I'm coming from. I'll go for the
cheapest coverage I can get and expect the hassle that I know is waiting for me
if and when, I ever have a claim.
JJ Sinclair
Jim Husain
>Lastly, is there anyone out there offering commercial glider coverage other
>than Costello?
Try LL Johns. Less costly, and we can fly the ship during the winter months
with no added premium. Happy so far!
Jim
N483SZ
gapagod...@aol.com
Steve Townsend
news:20011121130245...@mb-fc.aol.com...
> U.S. Glider Pilots-
I'm new to the aviation insurance game since I bought my first sailplane this
year. I did my homework and priced several policies. Since I live in MI, with
winter storage, I found the on/off procedure along with price key. I opted for
a policy by LL Johns (Waterford, MI) for year around coverage thru AIG at a
price slightly less than Costello, but without the storage hassle, plus it was
a local agent for me. I insured my Kestrel 19 for $820/yr for $1,000,000
liability & personal Injury, $3,000 medical for $100 deductible (not in motion)
and $500 (in motion) on a $20,000 policy ($15,000 hull, $5,000 trailer).
Now, I’m a relatively low time pilot, private ASEL with <200 hrs, and a freshly
minted Glider rating (August, 2001) with only 90 flights total, and no >35:1
time until I flew the kestrel. I had to get my glider rating to get insurance,
but I feel I got good coverage for reasonable coverage.
Hope this information helps.
Steve
98PN
--
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MHende6388
glider insurance? Only Costello (via AIG)?
Burt Compton
Susan Fassett, have provided me with excellent service at a competitive premium
for years. The ability to call and quickly insure a new glider or towplane
added to my fleet at Miami Gliders, as well as receive answers to my questions,
has been worth it to me. When I was shopping for insurance a few years ago, I
couldn't get quick answers from companies that primarily insure airplanes.
Costello & Associates (a SSA Business Member) works for us to find a variety of
glider insurance products from a dwindling supply of aviation insurance
underwriters.
Pat Costello is always accessible to chat with at the SSA Conventions, he
attends the SSA Board meetings to report on the state of glider insurance
availability, and advises and assists the Soaring Safety Foundation.
An unsolicted comment from Burt at Miami Gliders. www.FLYGLIDERS.com
JJ Sinclair
XcNick
is waiting for me if and when, I ever have a claim.
It is nice just to be able to insure sport aviation. The hang glider was never
insured and wore out in a couple of years. But the liability insurance was
great: "Er... sue me, I'm poor." I doubt that will work with sailplanes like
the 25. ;-)
But I am really interested in what insurance companies use for credentials. I
respected that they thought I was safer in a lower performing glider. It has
worked so far and saved some bucks.
Now I need to fly 50 hours of >35:1 and total 300 hours for the next step, I
think. It would be nice if it was as clear as the badge system.
xcnick
DBrotto
>It is nice just to be able to insure sport aviation. The hang glider was
>never
>insured and wore out in a couple of years. But the liability insurance was
>great: "Er... sue me, I'm poor." I doubt that will work with sailplanes like
>the 25. ;-)
>
For a $59 yearly membership, the USHGA (United States Hang Gliding Association
includes $1,000,000 liability insurance fro HG incidents (not to mention a
really good magazine.)
Danny Brotto
Steve Corlew
>
> Now I need to fly 50 hours of >35:1 and total 300 hours for the next step, I
> think. It would be nice if it was as clear as the badge system.
>
> xcnick
Sorry that I've been off the board for bit and might have missed the
clarifying point here, but what is "the next step"? I, with two other
partners, bought into a high-performance (by insurance defs),
retractable glider shortly before taking my check ride and only needed
to a) pass the check ride, and b) log 5 hours in the club's retractable
Grob 102 before I was insured in my own plane.
Frankly, I found the hours requirement curious (as opposed to a
specified number of incident-free TO/LDNG cycles) since the retractable
gear was something new even in my power flying. However, after about
three late fall flights in the Grob I was without any complication or
ceremony added to my own policy as an insured pilot. I still have no
hesitation about the slipperiness of the ship but gear down bothers me
until the plane comes to a complete stop.
If you want to comparison shop email me off-board and I'll give you the
contact info for my insuror.
Steve
N751DC
XcNick
landings. I needed to break 100 flights. The next break for me is at 200
flights. With no claim last year I went from 850 to 740 bucks.
I think it is interesting that acomplishment with badges or awards doesn't make
one safer. Just doing the take off and landing is valuable experience making us
safer.
I have given up any idea of self insurance. My buddies Blanik had both wings
broken off durring the last storm.
I'll shop around next year, but thanks.