Can gliders and powered aircraft co-exist using the same runway?
Ron Lee
the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
operational issues?
Ron Lee
cherok...@gmail.com
We often use grass infields for landing to avoid power traffic. We use
the same traffic pattern direction. We have to launch on the runway
though, a lot of our training in spring checkouts, flight reviews, etc.
is on minimizing time on the runway. Incursions are getting better,
the airport is home to many business jet operations and we dont want to
make them go around.
occasionally, all hell breaks lose :(
BT
traffic of each type.
With a student doing touch and goes in the pattern, it would be difficult to
"stage and launch" a glider without a good ground crew that can push the
glider with the pilot already strapped in and ready for launch.
A large area near the threshold for staging and being able to "launch at an
angle to the runway and onto the runway" would work best. Also an area to
land and then have the glider "roll clear" to the side would also work best.
Runway side lights tend to cause a problem for this.
I would suggest opposite patterns so you can see each other on downwind and
base.
At our airport we are lucky to have parallel paved runways, one for glider
and one for power.
Multiple glider operations does cause congestion on the glider runway, we do
have a cleared infield and no runway lights on the "glider runway" so that
landing gliders can roll clear, or if the runway is blocked by a landing
glider, the next glider in the landing sequence can land on the infield, if
not long or short.
BT, CFIG
"Ron Lee" <nospam...@pcisys.net> wrote in message
news:45a85d79...@news.pcisys.net...
Nyal Williams
sites where the patterns are the same, and at sites
where they are on opposite sides of the runway. There
are those who will insist that opposing each other
on the base leg is suicidal because transient traffic
will not understand, will do unexpected avoidance maneuvers,
and throw everything into a scramble.
>'Ron Lee' wrote in message
>news:45a85d79...@news.pcisys.net...
Frank Whiteley
they may not be reflected there. We had a recent power visitor that
was briefed on local procedures, then proceeded to do what was on the
AOPA web site. Enlightening to all concerned.
A couple glider operations have lost their access to the parallel grass
in recent years.
Frank Whiteley
Ray Lovinggood
(about halfway between Raleigh and Fayetteville).
5,000' paved runway. Gliders launch from paved runway
and use a right traffic pattern. Power planes use
'standard' left pattern. Club has been there for about
19 years or so.
For landing, gliders can use grass on either side of
runway, but 'primary' grass area is to the right side.
Landing on the pavement is done when grass is filled
with other gliders or grass is too wet and ground too
soft.
While it is a county operated airport, the county only
cuts the grass when it get's high enough to hide a
glider, therefore, the club pays to have its area of
operation cut.
There's not that much traffic at the airport, but we
have had an occassional power pilot doing touch and
goes and we have to work our way into the sequence
to launch. We try to have pilot strapped in and ready
to go and pull him to the runway with golf cart, minimizing
time on runway. If there is enough ground crew.
There have been times where we have asked power traffic
to extend their downwinds, and they do so without problems.
Yes, in 19 years of operations, there have been some
runway incursions on part of the glider. We do our
best not to do so by keeping ears listening to the
radio and eyes watching for traffic. We've set up
on the runway when both 'straight in's' and 'normal
left hand' traffic patterns were being flown by power
pilots. In all cases, we just missed hearing their
announcements on the radio and didn't see them until
we were on the runway moments from launching. This
doesn't happen often, but it has happened. We are
doing much better job now of not doing it. Much better
just by being more vigilant.
Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
arturo
Ron Lee schrieb:
it is possible.
give a look up into http://www.segelflug-tirol.at
Winch starts at the safety-strip along the rwy, landings 50 meters
behind. B 757 in long final.
best regards
arturo
Mike
Our club operates at an uncontrolled municipal airport with a 3600'
paved runway. There is no landing on the grass to the side of the
runway as it is too rough. Depending on wind direction, we either take
off from the grass with about a 300' run before crossing the threshold
(gliders are airborne by this point) or pushed out onto the runway when
going from the other end. Radio communication with the power pilots is
crucial as there is alot of transient traffic. Club rule require that
ships stop on the runway and then get pushed off. This is due to more
than one encounter with runway lights that put the glider out of action
for a time. I agree that opposing patterns is a recipe for disaster at
our airport but it may work well elsewhere. We enter the pattern at
1000' - the same as power. That way everyone knows where to look for
conflicts.
As a somewhat interesting aside, we also have a medivac based at our
field. The chopper sits well off the runway near a hanger. One day the
chopper was spinning up as a launch was getting ready to go (no wing
runner) at the opposite end of the field. Winds were light and variable
and traffic was very light. I was at mid-field and could see both but
it was unlikely they could see each other. I know the view of the
chopper is obscured by aircraft on the ramp and assume he couldn't see
the tug. I was walking and had no radio. The launched commenced and
just as the tug got airborne the medivac lifted off and basically flew
over the taxiway offset but head-on to the tug/glider. The tug pilot
banked a little to increase the separation and both went on their merry
ways. It was close but didn't require radical maneuvering by either
pilot.
Minutes later a CFI and FAA Airport Safety Officer (or some such title)
came down and basically chewed me out for having the launch proceed
while a medivac was taking off. She let me know in no uncertain terms
that the medivac has the right of way and we should have waited. I told
her a) I wasn't even there and b) once the tug/glider launch they have
very limited ability to maneuver especially that close to the ground.
There was no question that the launch started before the chopper lifted
off. She didn't want to hear it and went off in a huff.
When the tug pilot returned he said that he didn't see the chopper
spinning up, announced his take off, heard nothing from the medivac and
didn't view it as a particularly close call. I never talked to the
medivac pilot and never heard any complaints from them. I did notice
that the medivacs now seem to "taxi" out to the runway and take off
down the runway rather than climbing out right from their pad. Just
another thing to be aware of.
Mike
JS
Brian and Gillian Spreckley used to launch their South African
operation from the same runway in M'mabatho that 707s and 747s used for
touch-and-gos. Glider patterns on one side, power on the other, and a
control tower. Sequencing was interesting and sometimes very noisy, but
far from impossible.
For High Country Soaring's operations on Ely, Nevada's runway 18/36,
gliders are staged alongside the overrun and taxiways for launch and
pulled into place with golf carts. It worked very well. Landings had
you stopping at the mid-field taxiway, and being whisked off by the
crew.
Jim
Tim Hanke
Springs, New York with another Soaring Club and a heavy amount
corporate jet traffic in the month of August. We use the same left hand
traffic pattern and are forced to land on the asphalt runway due to an
endangered species of butterfly that lives at the airfield. Things for
the most part work fine.
Tom Gardner
Lasham, the largest gliding centre in the UK, shares the field with a
commercial jet maintenance facility. This means the runway is shared
with 707/727/767/Airbusses.
If you delve around on their site, http://www.lasham.org.uk/, you can
find more information.
Doug Haluza
for almost 20 years. T/O and landing is from the grass adjacent to the
two 4000' paved runways. Power patterns are left for all. When the
grass is on the right, gliders make a 45 degree entry to a right
pattern. When the grass is on the left, gliders make a crosswind
mid-field entry >1000' AGL to a tight left pattern. This eliminates all
traffic pattern conflicts (as long as the power traffic makes a
standard 45 degree entry.
The glider tow planes make a standard power pattern, then land on the
grass with the gliders.
There is also a banner tow operation, with banner pickups on the
inactive runway. The banner planes take off from the active runway,
then come around to pickup from the inactive, and then turn to join the
upwind departure from the active again. This is not a big problem.
The main conflict is with airplanes taxiing to the the active runway.
The gliders and tow planes have to cross the taxiway extension on
approach to the grass runway. One time the tow plane dragged the rope
across a Cessna's wing.
Alan Meyer
news:45a85d79...@news.pcisys.net...
> Can anyone identify an airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
> the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
> operational issues?
The Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association operation at Frederick
Maryland was forced by the airport manager into sharing a paved
runway with power traffic. There are two runways and in most
wind conditions power and glider traffic use different runways,
but sometimes we both use the same.
We use different patterns for power and gliders and those cases,
and we are required to announce our intentions on Unicom.
On some days, power traffic is almost continuous at certain times
of the day. Touch and goes are occurring. Power planes may be
lined up for takeoff, while more than one power plane is in the
pattern.
Personally, I find this situation to be undesirable. The number
of glider takeoffs per hour is greatly reduced. We need to stage
carefully off the runway, then rush to get on and launched
quickly. We sometimes have to cut in to the lined up power
traffic if we want to get off at all.
Landings are more harrowing. Sometimes I have circled the field
at 1,000 or 1,200 feet listening to announcements by power planes
that typically announce their landings from several miles out.
Waiting for no announcements is out of the question. When I get
low I just have to find a slot and take it, whether power is
close or not. I have to be prepared to land on the grass, and
some of our club members have done that, though I have not yet
had to do it.
I also feel more pressure to steer off the runway while I still
have enough inertia, rather than coming to a dead stop. I have
managed to clip a runway light, and many others have too.
All in all, I find intermixing with power traffic, especially if
there is a lot of it, to be cumbersome, unnerving, and not really
as safe. But then I'm a low time Sunday pilot. The really
competent pilots seem to take it all in stride.
If you have specific questions, you might want to write to talk
to our chief flight instructor, Glenn Collins. If you wish to email
me, I can forward your inquiry to him.
Alan
Andreas Alin
> Landings are more harrowing. Sometimes I have circled the field
> at 1,000 or 1,200 feet listening to announcements by power planes
> that typically announce their landings from several miles out.
> Waiting for no announcements is out of the question. When I get
> low I just have to find a slot and take it, whether power is
> close or not. I have to be prepared to land on the grass, and
> some of our club members have done that, though I have not yet
> had to do it.
In my opinion, as an glider pilot you have "the right-of-way over an
airship, aeroplane, or rotorcraft" in this situation.
The aeroplane pilots can't expect that you are landing in a field,
because they are lazy about doing a 360.
I know many airfields with opposite traffic patterns for glider and
power traffic. If a glider pilot reports "position for landing", on any
of this airfields, powered aircrafts in final approach have to hurry up
or turn out of pattern if they are to slow, powered aircrafts in base
have to give the right of way to the glider.
But perhabs the airport manager could add an adequate grass strip for
gliders.
Andreas
xcs...@yahoo.com
AND PRACTICES FOR AERONAUTICAL OPERATIONS AT AIRPORTS WITHOUT
OPERATING CONTROL TOWERS"
John
Ron Lee
ensure that we can keep the gliders operating at my airport.
Ron Lee
Alan Meyer
<insertmygivenname.insertmyfamilyn...@gmx.de> wrote:
> ...
> In my opinion, as an glider pilot you have "the right-of-way over an
> airship, aeroplane, or rotorcraft" in this situation.
Yes, and I think the power pilots understand. I've never personally
seen a power pilot do anything dumb when a glider was landing.
Still, I try not to assert my rights and cut in front of someone else
unless I have to.
> (http://www.caa.co.ug/docs/Rules%20of%20the%20Air%20and%20Air%20Traffi...)
>
> The aeroplane pilots can't expect that you are landing in a field,
> because they are lazy about doing a 360.
>
> I know many airfields with opposite traffic patterns for glider and
> power traffic. If a glider pilot reports "position for landing", on any
> of this airfields, powered aircrafts in final approach have to hurry up
> or turn out of pattern if they are to slow, powered aircrafts in base
> have to give the right of way to the glider.
>
> But perhabs the airport manager could add an adequate grass strip for
> gliders.
Unfortunately, although we have a perfectly adequate grass strip
that was specifically created for gliders and used successfully and
safely for many years, our airport manager has decided to close
it down - perhaps in an attempt to force us out and bring in higher
paying power traffic.
Alan
Ron Lee
>Unfortunately, although we have a perfectly adequate grass strip
>that was specifically created for gliders and used successfully and
>safely for many years, our airport manager has decided to close
>it down - perhaps in an attempt to force us out and bring in higher
>paying power traffic.
>
> Alan
Hence the basis of my question should the glider strip here go away.
How to keep the gliders here safely intermingled with powered
aircraft.
Ron Lee