FAA Permanently Revokes Pilot's License over ADS-B

[Semantics Michael]

Power pilot accused of intentionally turning off ADS-B out to cloak a different infraction (flying under a bridge). This was not a license suspension, it was a life-time revocation by the FAA (After 60yrs of flying, she'll have to start over from scratch). Pilot acknowledges the bridge incident (caught on security camera), but claims she did not disable the instrument. Keep in mind, all your ADS-B data is stored and can be viewed by anyone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYRqASMuo_g

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/bridge-stunt-leads-to-ads-b-revocation/

[2G]

This is a good news/bad news story. The good news is that if you have ADS-B installed (and I do) you get free flight tracking vs paying for InReach or Spot. The bad news is Big Brother is watching you - full time. I had one recent flight that took me around a restricted area which is broken into 8 different sections, and usually only a few are active on any given day. Will the FAA bother to check which ones were active before citing you, forcing you to prove yourself innocent (which could take months)?

Tom

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Andy, you of all people should know which sections of the restricted area are hot prior to takeoff. It is very easy to call the area Mission Desk and you will be advised of which areas are hot or cold and the UTC time of activity, Here in Vero Beach we have a great relationship with Miami Center and a couple of months ago I was called and asked if we had gliders in the area of a certain class B, of course we did not, but if you are that stupid to knowingly violate that critical airspace or of a hot restricted area then maybe you should reconsider the ADSB instillation. Spend a few bucks and go back to using the SPOT, if things are that tight let me know and I will advance you a few bucks. Old Bob

[Tony]

It's only ATC that would notice an airspace incursion & initiate an investigation and you can bet they know which areas are hot.

[2G]

Hey Rob, you, as usual are BLOWING SMOKE and are BARKING up the wrong tree.

[2G]

How do you know that "only ATC" would initiate an investigation? Anybody on the ground or air could contact the FAA about a suspected incursion. And once contacted, the FAA WILL investigate. This story is scary because the FAA considers you guilty until you prove yourself innocent which may take months.

Tom

[andy l]

A former bridge near where I live (in the UK) was nicknamed Spitfire Bridge, for a 1941 exploit, though it now seems the aircraft was a Curtiss Tomahawk.

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=File:Parabolic-arch-concrete-bridge-carrying-alresford-road-over-winchester-bypass.jpg
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Spitfire_Bridge

If ADSB or other surveillance had existed in those days, it seems pretty certain the signal would temporarily be lost from most directions, as the flight path is below much of the surrounding land

I doubt that many us aspire to exuberance or hooliganism on quite that scale

[Martin Gregorie]

On Sun, 16 May 2021 10:16:01 -0700, andy l wrote:

> I doubt that many us aspire to exuberance or hooliganism on quite that
> scale

I dunno - there is always Jack Currie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Currie_(RAF_officer)
who loved low flying - usually in Halifaxes and Mosquitos.

His books are worth reading: especially 'Lancaster Target', 'Mosquito
Victory' and 'Wings Over Georgia', which all deal with much more than
just wartime operations.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Tony]

Only ATC knows in real time what's hot and not. The schedule as NOTAMed is meaningless.

[JAB]

On Sat, 15 May 2021 21:23:35 -0700 (PDT), 2G <soar2...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Big Brother is watching you

Become a military pilot...they will turn tracking off, when they
choose.

[2G]

That ship sailed decades ago...

[Guy Byars]

> This was not a license suspension, it was a life-time revocation by the FAA

1 year revocation, neither life-time nor permanent.

[Dan Marotta]

We only did that during certain mission profiles. Otherwise the parrot
was squawking.

Dan
5J

[Semantics Michael]

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 7:00:06 AM UTC-5, gfbwi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > This was not a license suspension, it was a life-time revocation by the FAA
> 1 year revocation, neither life-time nor permanent.

If this is accurate, I'll be happy to remove the post, but can you cite your source please? According to the references provided in the OP and below, while FAA suspensions are time-limited, revocations (as in this case) not only are permanent, but all certificates are revoked (not just the one flown (SEL) in force during this infraction, but her ATP and others. Ms. Lunken's published info indicates she is now not certified to fly anything.). As is quoted, she is allowed to start her training all over again after a period of time (which she negotiated 3-months earlier). All Respect to Ms. Lunken for the mea culpa and the incentive for her to start anew. The original thought to posting the event was simply a reminder to us not to be tempted to turn off ADS-B (or other archivable logs) as we're climbing through 18k" w/o a wave window. See below:

"...under 49 U.S.C. § 44709(b), the certificate is no longer valid and the holder may not exercise any of its privileges. Unlike a
suspension, a certificate that has been revoked cannot be reinstated. ....To be issued an airman certificate following
revocation, an individual must retake all tests, whether written, oral, or practical."

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/enforcement/enforcement_actions/#:~:text=Certificate%20Actions,-The%20Enforcement%20Division&text=Certificate%20revocations%20are%20issued%20when,Transportation%20Safety%20Board%20(NTSB).
https://blog.globalair.com/post/2017/01/03/What-Happens-To-A-Certificate-When-The-FAA-Suspends-Or-Revokes-It

[kinsell]

The parrot wasn't squawking ADS-B, that's for sure. I see an occasional
C-17 transmitting it, but it seems most military traffic isn't equipped
even today.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

For obvious reasons I would think that most military traffic would not be ADS-B broadcasting. I certainly know the ones going into 2901 are NOT. There have been a couple of points here on this thread that are very interesting. One was that Ole Andy is clueless about Restricted Zone operation. The good point that Tony made was that ATC has the latest operational information on Hot or Cold for these restricted areas. Each Restricted area has an ATC zone that is responsible for that information, in our case it is Miami Center. That Center has a mission desk that receives operational status the day or afternoon prior as to the operational times for that specific RA.
For our area that information comes from MacDill AFB usually around 4pm, As Tony stated do not plan on using the NOTAM as the true determination as to whether the zone is HOT or Cold. These zones can change within a few hours notice. You can call the mission desk for that center and as in our case they are always very informative as to the operational hours. I my case I will call the Mission desk, get the current status of each area within that RA, there is usually a 4 hour window for a zone to become operational. I always check with the ATC to confirm the current status to double check the status, I do this by calling Miami ATC on the radio as I am approaching the RA. Keep in mind that these areas are multi purpose military training areas, aircraft, helicopter, artillery, and special warfare training takes place in some of these RA areas. I have has a F-18 circle me outside of the RA while in the MOA, we gave each other the thumbs up, it was great. Old Bob

[Eric Greenwell]

I'm very disturbed by the idea that airspace NOTAMS can change after I've taken off. Why
should I or anyone waste their time looking at them on the ground, if they have to contact
ATC in the air as they approach the airspace, so they know what the airspace status is?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Amos, I would suggest that in your case it would be very prudent to check not only the NOTAM, but the active status of the RA if you plan to fly through it. I really don't think that the military gives a rats ass if you choose to ignore a NOTAM or RA, but the FAA will. A NOTAM can be issued at any time, I call and issue NOTAMS for our field on several occasions. I give the agency the X52 designation and my authority initials, they ask me what time it should commence and end along with the reason, they reply with a NOTAM identification number. Just because you want to fly does not excuse your violation. Old Bob

[AS]

On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 2:13:36 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> >

> I'm very disturbed by the idea that airspace NOTAMS can change after I've taken off. Why
> should I or anyone waste their time looking at them on the ground, if they have to contact
> ATC in the air as they approach the airspace, so they know what the airspace status is?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

That seems to happen more often than one would think! Talk to the guys who fly the ridges in Central PA. When the POTUS decides to hop in a chopper and spend the weekend at Camp David, the no-fly zone around it covers a good part of the ridge(s). I am sure a NOTAM will be published but you will not know about it until you get visited by a black helicopter.
A similar thing happened a number of years ago when the POTUS was campaigning for reelection in OH. A NOTAM for a 'moving no-fly' zone was issued for the corridor between Toledo and Columbus but not even the ATC in that area knew, where the motorcade was at any moment. I inquired about it with Akon/Canton and their response was 'Well - do you see any Black Hawks circling you? No? Good - then you are not in it, yet!' We decided to pack it in for the day and fire up the grill.

Uli
'AS'

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Uli, you are absolutely correct, it happens more than you realize. It is the responsibility of the individual to know what the factors are in a VIP or RA situation. Having a great contact line with the agency is of utmost importance. When the Trumpster was in office, wish he still was, I would get an email from the Col. at Tyndall AFB advising me of the TFR for my local airport, we made sure that we knew exactly when and where the TFR was active. Yes, he did hop in the Helo and visit Lake O, the TFR followed.

[Eric Greenwell]

I'm sure POTUS is a special problem, but it's never been an issue for me in the 30 some
years I've been checking NOTAMS (where I fly there are usually very few voters). I'm not
aware of any NOTAMS that changed while I was flying. Aside from POTUS, has this happened
to anyone, did it cause you to violate airspace, and was official action taken against you?

What are the regulations for NOTAMS; e.g., are they strictly "informational" and you
depend on them at your risk? I've always assumed they could be issued at any time, but it
was understood pilots might not know about them for at least 4 to 8 hours, and you should
have it issued no later than the day before if at all possible.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

It is my experience that NOTAMS can be issued at any time. NOTAMS are enforceable and some can lead up to 100K fines, even one year in prison. If a runway was closed and a NOTAM was issued and you landed at that runway are you guilty of a violation posted by a NOTAM ? I wish I had the answer, but I guess we all could be guilty at some point in time.
I can tell you this, I am a commercial drone operator and I also hold a PPL, along with my 107 UAS certification. If I violate airspace that is restricted to drone operation the violation also goes against my PPL. Now I can get authorization to operate in no fly areas, but I must go through the FAA for approval which can take as long as 90 days. If I am doing thermal imaging with a drone, I make damn sure that I am operating outside of controlled airspace. The point here is that it does not take a NOTAM for me to be held responsible for violating airspace. I can fly my airplane or glider over a state wildlife reserve, but not my drone, go figure.

[2G]

Hey Robby, you, as usual, are totally confused. I was NOT referring to how you obtain permission to enter a restricted area, but how the FAA might react if someone files a complaint about your flight into a restricted area. And it WAS a question - not a statement.

And you might actually look into why most military aircraft aren't equipped with ADS-B. Hint: it is not for the reason you think it is. BTW, military aircraft are subject to ALL the rules that apply to non-government aircraft.

Also, some may interpret you derisive comments referring to Amos and Andy as being racist.

Tom

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Andy, you were totally clueless about the Restricted Area operation, you comment was ,"Is The FAA Going To Check And See If The Restricted Area Was Hot"? You of all people should know that the FAA knows when an area is hot or not, they issue the NOTAM and updates.
Now about Amos & Andy, it was hilarious comedy, along with All In The Family, The Jeffersons, and the Three Stooges, you fit the mold, I guess I could have called you Meathead, or Curley, but Andy fit you much better. Your buddy, The Purist! Old Bob

[Tony]

My point about the real-time aspect of Special Use Airspace is that it can be NOTAMed hot all week and get used for 20 minutes. Sector knows even better than desk jockey.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

I realize that we have deviated quiet a bit from the original topic, but this discussion does come into play for most every glider pilot flying near any SUA. There are some aspects of the SUA that I still have questions about and I do have some first hand knowledge about how these SUA's are investigated. The ADS-B component makes it much easier for the FAA to determine the actual infraction as demonstrated by the under the bridge flight. I guess most of us have done something similar at some point, no, I guess we all have.
It will be interesting to see what the next few years will bring to soaring, I guess at some point we will all be required to have some type of ADS-B out. During the next 18 months drone manufacturers are being required to have ADS-B on new drone equipment, which I do believe includes the transmitter and the drone. Also within the next 36 months or so all non compliant equipment must be updated. My point is, isn't it getting a bit crazy out there?
Big Brother Is Watching! The Purist, Old Bob

[2G]

Hey Robby, and you know the FAA knows HOW? ATC is one division, enforcement another. And you idiotically assume that they actually TALK to each other? Give me a break - you are more gullible than I thought!

Your comments might very well be considered racist by many these days, but you are not of a mind to see that. We might as well call you Black Face Bob.

Tom

[Tony]

2G, you have reversed your position since the beginning of the thread. ATC will contact FSDO if they observe a violation.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Andy is struggling with reality and emotions rule his every thought, I think it might just be the Motorglider Disease. Poor Andy has no idea how the system can work, has no idea of RAS and how it operates. Ole Andy might just give the lady a call and ask her how it works, she probably could educate him a bit. The Purist, Old Bob

[2G]

Hey Robby, your racist comments aren't welcome here.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Andy, I expect nothing less from a liberal like you to throw so much human waste at the wall hoping that some will stick, sorry, try another approach. You have shown your ignorance on many issues, why stop now, I received a very nice call from someone who knows you well, they confirmed what I already knew. The Purist, Old Bob